1310: Sick Mom Needs Me — But So Does My Family | Feedback Friday

24:10Because there's a lot you can do for your mom. You can help her navigate housing, treatment, doctor's appointments, logistics. You can help stabilize her finances again. You can help her find another apartment. You can try to recruit some support so this doesn't all fall on you. If money is super tight, you can look into housing programs for people with medical conditions or income-based housing. You can encourage your mom to rebuild ties with some other friends or family who can share the load. There are community groups, religious support networks. There are non-profits dedicated to helping sick people manage their finances better.

24:41A lot of oncology departments, they have social workers and patient resource coordinators who are plugged into good options. And of course, you can still help her coordinate her care. You can advocate for her with her doctors. You can provide emotional support, all within reason. So there's still a lot you can and should do to help your mom without turning your home into an open flop house. And the way I'd communicate this is, I'd sit down with your mom, you could do this with your wife if it's helpful, or just one-on-one. And I would say, hey, mom, we love you. We want to support you through your treatment.

25:11We're so happy that you're getting better. You're not alone in this. But with the baby coming, our home is going to need to just be the three of us. So we need to work together over the next few months to figure out a permanent living situation for you. Your health is trending in the right direction. The baby's due in three months. Let's set a date for us to find you a new home and get you set up. I'll still be involved. I'll still be close. I still love you. And you have a place to live until we find an apartment. You don't have to worry about that. But it's time to find a solution that works for all of us.

25:40Nice. I like that a lot. And then I would have the larger conversation about what she's been asking you to do for her, what you're going to need from her to make this work, namely basic financial responsibility. I know it's hard to imagine saying this to your mom, but I feel like she needs to understand the position she's put you in, the ways in which she's just not holding up her end of the bargain. Now, given the history here, she might not go, oh, a boundary. I love boundaries. I love hearing that I'm not holding up my end of the bargain and I won't be able to squat with my son indefinitely.

26:07Totally respect that. So I'd be prepared for any number of responses from her when you have this conversation. Good point. And if you get a negative one, I would try to stay neutral, loving still, but neutral. And I wouldn't walk things back or capitulate immediately to make everything better. You can say, okay, I see this is really hard. I know it brings up some uncertainty. Nobody is leaving you on your own. We are going to figure this out together. I'm just asking for an equal partner here. The together piece is big, I think. She needs to step up here. Yeah, and then I would be very vigilant about what that brings up in you.

26:40The guilt that you talked about, sadness, whatever it is, because that's part of the dance between you and your mom. She asks or demands, implicitly or explicitly, you feel guilty, you accommodate her. If you draw boundaries, she might bristle at it. You feel like a bad son, and then you cave, and then the situation just continues. If you want to rewrite this pattern without feeling like a bad son, like you said, you have to notice how these feelings arise in you, and then you really have to be willing to feel them. capitulating to your mom. Yes, part of that is a genuine desire to care for her, of course, and that's very kind.

27:13But part of that is also probably a way to not have to feel these feelings at all. Right. But what's interesting is then he feels other feelings, resentment, frustration, stress. So it's like, which bad feelings do you want to feel? Yeah, it's a good question because he's accepting the unpleasant feelings over here because they feel safer and more acceptable than the unpleasant ones over there. And by over there, I mean the ones closer to mom. The ones that might provoke her, might disappoint her. Yeah, he'd rather carry that than have to bear her response. So I hear all that and I agree. And I'm genuinely worried about his mom's money situation.

27:49Let's remember that our friend moved her into his studio apartment once before because she got evicted. She straight up didn't save enough money to pay the rent. And then when she moved in, she didn't save any money until he was like, hey, I'm getting involved and you are saving money. So my fear is even if he manages to get her into a new place, how does he prevent this from happening again? I'm with you. He can't be his mom's savior over and over forever, especially if it's not even really necessary. But if she's not able to take care of herself in this way, is it kind of necessary? I mean, I'm kind of worried that it might be.

28:21I would say there are solutions there, too. Maybe he needs to get more involved in her finances. Maybe he needs to monitor her bank accounts, cut the rent check himself each month. Maybe he needs to collaborate with his brother or his aunt or his wife and tag team mom's money situation. So it's not all on him. There are options. Okay. Yeah. That's kind of a relief. There's a middle ground here. I'm just worried about this woman. I feel like she's expecting her son to save her because she won't take basic care of herself. And because he continues to save her, she just has no motivation to improve at all.

28:52But that's exactly it. If he stops this pattern, she might be forced to take care of herself in the best way. True. And then there might be a transitional period where he supports her from afar until she can figure out how to do this on her own. Also, he's late 20s, right? So she's probably, what, in her 50s, early 60s, or who knows, maybe even late 40s. I mean, she's not 70, 80, 90 years old. I keep picturing this frail old woman with cancer who can't keep track of her Bank of America card. But then I remember that that actually is not the case. No, you know, that's a good point. But even if she can handle this better, if she's just inept and that won't change, then he's going to have to be involved to some degree.

29:29To some degree. The degree is where the boundary comes in. Look, another idea occurring to me here. You're about to have a baby. I'm sure you know that that's going to be very full on for a while. So if your mom can't afford her own place, if she needs to stay with you for a while, what if you told her, look, mom, we could use some help with the baby for the next year or two years or, I don't know, six months, whatever. You pick a reasonable time frame. So if you're going to stay here, we'd like to ask you to pitch in for a couple hours a night. Watch the baby, help with dinner, whatever it is you guys could use help with.

30:00I know that might sound kind of quid pro quo. It is quid pro quo. She is straight up expecting you to give her free plays with free food, free rent, whatever. At least this way, the arrangement becomes fairer to you guys and she feels more of a sense of purpose being there. But you need to make the timeframe and expectations very clear. Once Naomi turns one or two or whatever, We find you your own place and you are on the hook for two hours every weekday night and four hours every weekend or whatever, every day on the weekend, whatever it is. And you just you can't hole up in your bedroom and watch Virgin River every night and come out for food and go back in.

30:38We need you involved. It is interesting because it is quid pro quo. But like you said, she's already made this somewhat transactional. So yeah, maybe fair is fair. This is a clever solution to this. It does sound like a win win to me. Yes. I mean, look, a couple hours of babysitting a night is like, let's say it's 30 bucks an hour, which is, I don't know, probably a decent wage where he lives. That's pretty good in exchange for food and a place to sleep. You know, and then four hours on the weekend, it's like, OK, well, we're talking about 120. But I mean, this is like a person earning enough money to be tolerated, I guess.

31:12And look, he might not want her there at all. But if she has to be there, this feels like the best arrangement. And candidly, I'm a little disappointed that his mom didn't bring this up herself. This would be a different story if she was like, look, I know I'm imposing on you. I know this is a lot to ask. I really want to find ways of being helpful to you. Let me help with the baby. Instead of being like, oh, I didn't save any money. I just figured I would mooch off you indefinitely. I mean, Gabe, I'm imagining he's like, how much have you saved? And she's just like a teenager who's wasted all their money on what a kid's buy now.

31:44Yu-Gi-Oh cards. I don't know. Like, she just looks down and is like, nothing. Like, oh, I was hoping you would just never ask and the consequences of this would just never come to bite me in the ass. It's like insanity. Like the brother, no self-awareness slash doesn't care enough about other people to be like, yeah, I'm freeloading. I should do something about that. That's a whole other part of his letter is that this seems to be a pattern in the family. This is the family way. But you know what else I'm thinking about? I wonder how his wife feels about all this. I have to assume that she is not a happy camper.

32:12No way. This is going to be a problem in their marriage if they don't figure this out, which I think he probably knows already. So I'm sorry you're in this position, bud. I know it's really hard, but this is also a great opportunity to find a new way with your mom, with your entire family. I want to say something that might sound a little mean. It's not my intention, I promise, but the picture you've painted here, I get the sense your mom is a bit of a mess, and I'm sure her parenting played a big role in your brother's outcomes. You seem to have charted a very different path, which, like I said, is hugely impressive and beautiful, and I feel it's very important for you to protect this life you've built and not allow your family to drag you down.

32:49I'm not telling you to disown them. I'm not saying you shouldn't help them appropriately where you can, but the housing is almost the least of it. What's really at stake here, I think, is your independence, your identity, your momentum, your new family, all of which need to be your top priority. So my strong advice is to keep your eye firmly on those things and trust that you're not a bad person for not wanting to compromise them in order to save people who cannot or simply will not save themselves. Sending you, your mom, your wife, and your new baby a big hug and wishing you all the best. You know who else wants to live with you rent-free?

33:23If not in your home, then at least in your head. The amazing sponsors who support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Chime. Chime is changing the way people bank, and you know what? It's about time because if you've ever dealt with old school banks, you know the drill. Random fees, overdraft charges, minimum balances. It's like they're rooting for you to mess up so they can charge you for it. Chime flips that. It's fee-free, smarter banking, built for you, not the 1%. You can get paid up to two days early with direct deposit. And with MyPay, you can access up to$500 of your paycheck when you need it, not when your bank decides you deserve it.

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34:48Cook Unity has been honestly a lifesaver for our family and not just because our schedule gets crazy. We're also helping feed my parents who are in their 80s now and these days they're not really cooking. They're not driving much either. And look, the old solution for that used to be sad TV dinners and whatever frozen mystery tray was on sale, which is kind of bleak when you think about it. What I love about Cook Unity is now they have actual chef-crafted meals delivered right to the door, something that, well, didn't exist back in their day. If you told my parents years ago that restaurant-quality meals made by real chefs would show up ready to heat and eat in a few minutes, they would have thought you were describing life on a spaceship or something.

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35:49That's 50 % off your first order by using code Jordan or going to cookunity.com slash Jordan. Thank you for listening to and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers does keep the lights on. It keeps me flush with decongestant, which apparently doesn't work or do anything. Anyway, all the deals, discounts, and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right, next up. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. For 10 years, I've co-owned a small massage therapy business 50-50 with my mom.

36:23Our massage therapists have recently transitioned from independent contractors to an employee model. My mom and I have worked alongside each other, which created the illusion that we work together well, but truthfully, we were just in silos. Since moving to an employee model, conversations about building an ethical business have been coming up, and my mom and I have different ways of going about that. Namely, I'm noticing that my mom gets overwhelmed easily and struggles to collaborate. She has a strong need for autonomy, is not liking the idea of structure, and doesn't want us to quote-unquote control or police other people.

36:59I keep telling her that it matters how we wield our power rather than the fact that we have it. Nevertheless, we keep getting into these stalemates. I keep bringing issues up to her, problems I want us to solve with protocols, and my mom keeps getting overwhelmed and needs us to stop talking. Okay, I'm getting the strong sense that mom is not fit to run a business at all. Having these conversations continually get shelved is making it impossible to make any progress at all on solving the issues that are keeping us stuck. To boot, she keeps going to ChatGPT and wielding it as an ultimate authority.

37:36For example, she'll turn to ChatGPT and then say things to me like she wants us to quote-unquote steward instead of manage our employees. That's so annoying. So annoying. But when I try and talk to her, she totally freezes up and checks out. She's gaining the knowledge, but not living it in action. I don't know how I'm supposed to run this company with her when every conversation needs to be quote-unquote metabolized for days on end, stretching into weeks. I don't know how I'm supposed to take her at her word when her words are coming from a large language model and not her. I brought up joint therapy with her and she said she doesn't think we need it.

38:13Blah, blah, blah, something about leading a horse to water and drinking. That's hilarious, meaning her mom uses the lead to horse to water metaphor. for or wait no she's saying she can't lead her mom to the water wait i don't get it unclear i'm realizing now that she might have just written that for herself as a draft and forgot to throw it in there like whatever that's funny i've done that whatever it is that is kind of hilarious yeah i remember doing that on an exam in high school i wrote something like etc etc something something it was a science exam and the teacher was like jordan come here for a second he was also my neighbor and my friend's dad, thank God.

38:49So I walk over there and I'm like, yeah, Mr. Carney. And he's like, tell me how I can't remember. I was like, tell me how something with precipitation, you know, whatever works. And I was like, oh, and he's like, et cetera, et cetera. And I was like, no, like it does this and this and this. And he just kept saying, what do you, you know, et cetera, et cetera. He was like messing with me. And I was like, he's like, explain it to me exactly. So I did. And he goes, okay, but here's what you wrote. And it literally was like, and then water evaporates, et cetera, et cetera, becomes a cloud, rains down later, et cetera, et cetera.

39:16And he's like, were you expecting me to fill that in for you because i've seen that trick before and i was like no that was a placeholder and he's like you got to remember to come back to that stuff he's drawn x i love the idea of filling out an exam and writing like in brackets insert correct answer here yeah like at least i i should get some points for at least trying right hey here's the part where i don't know how anything works etc etc oh gosh anyway her mom sounds extremely challenging this would drive me up the wall. Yeah. More like blah, blah, blah. Something about one person rowing, one person drilling holes in the boat.

39:53Am I right? Literally blah, blah, blah. 10 % off your first month of family therapy with your mom, betterhelp.com slash Jordan, et cetera, et cetera.

40:03Oh boy. How do I deal with someone who keeps using chat GPT for all mental and emotional labor and personal conflicts? In fact, for almost everything signed a massage entrepreneur trying to need that's k-n-e-a-d the knots out of the system that impedes a way to meet my need that's n-e-e-d in case you couldn't see of which I have plenty including trying to run this business at high speed which is why I will concede that I would love to plead that my mom not use chat GPT to advise on how to lead when I would love to proceed with running this business as I please that was a new one Gabe I like that format puns and meta rhymes You wildin' breath.

40:46Just changing up, right? All right, so this is mildly infuriating on so many levels. First of all, I'm very sorry you're struggling to work with your mom and to communicate. There's a reason people say don't work with family. I'm not trying to shame you here. It's just this would be hard with any business partner. I'm sure it's 50 times harder with a parent. And I'm sorry that it's making it impossible to make real progress on solving these problems. The thing is, running a company, it's all solving problems every single day. Big ones, small ones, managing people, taking care of your employees, making sure everything's running properly.

41:19If you and your business partner can't even talk about this stuff, I mean, I literally don't understand how you are supposed to run this company together. I can tell you exactly how this dynamic goes, okay? Either you start doing everything yourself because she can't and slash won't, and then you resent her and you guys grow even further apart, or you continue to tussle and or avoid each other and the business suffers, maybe even crumbles, unless something big changes. You would have to change the way you approach her, the way you talk to her, how you frame these things in a way she can partner with you on.

41:52Not that I think that's really on you. And or she would have to learn how to tolerate these conversations long enough to actually find a solution with you. And candidly, based on what you've shared, it sounds like it's more the latter. But I wonder what she would say if we could talk to her. It's possible just making room for this idea that there's something about the way you talk to your mom that easily overwhelms her. Now, even if that's true, I would still say she needs to be able to tell you, look, I want to find a solution with you, but I'm overwhelmed by the way you're talking to me. I need a different approach.

42:22So I'm not letting her off the hook here. Yeah, that's fair. But if she were the kind of person who could just say that, she probably would not be in this position in the first place. And she would not probably be trying to get a mini part-time MBA from the University of Chad GPT. Right. But you No, look, I'm trying to address all the possibilities here. So I'm actually a little surprised by your question. This is not ultimately about working with a partner who uses AI to navigate personal conflicts, although that is super annoying. And if I had to listen to my avoidant and frazzled mom use words like steward and metabolize in meetings and then just go off for three weeks and avoid discussions, I would be pulling my freaking hair out.

42:59Really, this is about working with a partner who, based on what you shared, just doesn't have the wherewithal to tolerate conflict, to manage stress, to hang in the tension of a decision, and to consistently collaborate with you on finding solutions and everything that entails. In other words, again, to run a frickin' business. Shit. You did it yourself? You didn't go with the sound right this week? Nice. That's right. No. Yeah. And her mom also seems to have very different ideas about what good management looks like in the first place. Oh, excuse me. Excuse me. I think you mean stewardship, Gabriel.

43:35Oh, sorry, dude. Stewardship. I don't even know what that means. It's a corporate buzzword. The sense I'm getting is that her mom has some real anxiety around power and responsibility in general. 100%. I don't think this is philosophical. I think she's so afraid of managing people and being in charge that she's trying to wriggle out of this and find cute buzzwords that make it feel less stressful, which is absurd. You said wriggle? Yeah, wriggle. Wiggle out of... Wriggle. Wait, hold on. Are these two different words? Wiggle and wriggle. Yes, I believe they're different words. So I did not know that.

44:05I thought you wiggle out of responsibility. How would you say that? Wiggle out of it? Yeah, I thought you wiggle out of responsibilities. But no, it makes sense that these are two different words. Like now that I think about it. Yeah, I just looked it up. No, you wriggle. And I think when it's W-R, you say wriggle. Yeah, well, that makes sense. So I just thought that wiggle was spelled W-I. No, why did I think? I guess I never knew how to spell the word wiggle. Okay. Or I thought it was both. I'm not sure now. I have to examine my brain to figure that. And then also I thought that it was just the same word.

44:32You know what? It's funny because I also remember the word tetchy, T-E-T-C-H-Y. I used to think people were just saying touchy. Oh, yeah. And spelling it weird. Weird. Or saying it weird. Yeah. That's hilarious. No, that's a different word. Yeah. From the team that brought you canaps.

44:51This is a little bit less dumb than that, I hope. but I mean, I bounced off the rock bottom with canaps, I think. I just love that this is part of the family. Now leave Spotify comments about this. Did you know that wiggle and wriggle were two different things or were you kind of like, no, I thought you wiggled out of responsibility too? Because now that's a funny visual. To be fair, they are closely related. Like you wiggle is when you kind of move in place, but when you wriggle, I think it's when you like try to get out of something or avoid something. So they are kind of, they're a J's, you know?

45:25Okay. So back to the actual situation at hand. Why did they move to an employee-based model if she doesn't want to manage people? I am so confused. That is a terrible decision. I was just wondering the same thing. Yeah, now they got to stay on top of them even more. There's probably reasons for this. Like maybe their state was like, hey, these people are definitely not contractors because they only work at your place. I don't know. Fair. But if you hate all power, no matter what, maybe don't run a small business. You kind of have no business doing that. No pun intended. Go work for someone else because this stance on power, quote unquote, it's not getting you anywhere.

46:02In fact, it's, you're going to run into serious issues if you just refuse to manage the people that work for you. I feel like she needs to have a real conversation with her mom about what is happening here between them and how it's impacting the company. I agree, but I have no idea where she's supposed to start because this monster has like six heads and they're all trying to eat our friend here. Okay, I probably would not go after the chat GPT head from the start. I think that's the least problematic part of this letter. Maybe you sit down with your mom and you say, look, I think we're both noticing some new challenges since we moved to this employee-based model.

46:32That's to be expected. You and I have more contact than we did before. I'm realizing that we have very different ways of approaching problems. Here's what I'm noticing. And you can share briefly some of your observations and you can ask your mom, what are you noticing? You know, what has this been like for her? And then I would say something like, I would really love to work on this stuff so that we can be better partners to each other and also for the benefit of the company. And if there's anything that I'm doing to contribute to any of this, I want to know and I want to see if I can do anything to make things more productive.

46:59But then I would talk specifically with your mom about this tendency to get overwhelmed, the struggle to collaborate, her apparent need for autonomy, this allergic reaction to structure, to controlling, quote unquote, your employees and why she feels the need to go away for days or weeks. And what is she up to in that time? And why is it hard for her to stay in touch with you as she works through a decision and maybe see if she responds to you in a new way. Even a little openness and flexibility could make a very big difference. I like all that in theory, Gabe, but my fear is that her mom does what she always does and just gets overwhelmed and says, sorry, I need to stop talking about all this.

47:36I can sort of visualize this and it's annoying even the visual of someone being like, I can't think about this right now. Gosh, get away from my business. If that happens, then I would say, okay, mom, I hear you that you're overwhelmed. My intention is not to overwhelm you, but when you get overwhelmed and pull away, then we stop talking and we don't make any progress. So I'd really like you to stay in this conversation and maybe you can tell me why it's so overwhelming and maybe I can help you find a way to make these conversations more doable. And if she still can't? If she still can't, then I think our friend needs to start thinking about whether this partnership really makes sense.

48:10That's where I'm at with all this. I worked with dysfunctional partners for years, just way too long. And I know how crazy making it is. I just don't see this ending well. These people don't change. Plus, when the partner driving you crazy is also your mom, that just adds a whole other layer to the dynamic. It's very tough. Totally. I'm sure this overwhelm, this avoidance, these qualities didn't just crop up on their working relationship for the first time, right? If she's like this at work, I'm guessing she was probably like this at least to some degree growing up in their home, and that probably taps into some very old personal stuff, and I'm sure that sends our friend over the edge.

48:45I'm sure. If I had to run an Etsy business with my dad or whatever, I'd last like three weeks. We'd be at each other's throats. Love you, dad. Not going to happen. Also, when you're annoyed with your business partner, who's just a business partner, it's so much easier to say, hey, the way you're doing this is driving me crazy. We need to get better at this. But when it's your mom, that can be really hard, even harder than if it's your dad. It might feel cruel, scary or dangerous. It's just it's hard to call out your own parent. The other option is maybe you buy your mom out and you take over the company.

49:14I think so. And if she's not open to that, I would say maybe you leave it to her and you just go start your own. There are options. Yeah, but I would not make any decisions until you guys really talk. You got to give this one good shot and see if you can make progress before you make a big move. Honestly, this sounds very stressful, very frustrating. It sounds to me like you're looking for a real partner here, someone who can really be in this stuff with you, which is what every business partner needs and deserves. And you're not getting that from your mom. Ultimately, you're not stuck in this business.

49:43I'm not saying you should peace out tomorrow, but I would remember that you have the freedom to partner with the people you want to partner with and build the kind of business that you want to build. It sounds to me like your values and skills are the right ones, and those are going to be great assets to you, whatever you end up doing. And if you end up going through a business breakup, maybe have ChatGPT write your resignation letter. I'm sure it will steward all of this perfectly, and it will give your mom plenty to metabolize. All right, now we want you to metabolize the deals and discounts that we're about to shove down your throat.

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52:25Go to drinkag1.com slash Jordan. By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, come check out our newsletter, We Bit Wiser. It is a bite-sized gem from a past episode from us to you delivered to your inbox on most Wednesdays. If you want to keep up with the wisdom from our thousand plus episodes and apply it to your life, I invite you to come check it out. You can sign up at jordanharbinger.com slash news. All right, next up. Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I must say I'm a little disappointed with your recent feedback on Ellie, the woman taking advantage of her mother-in-law with those long visits with the kids.

52:59That was question three on episode 1294. Yeah, this is the mom that was getting UTIs from sitting so long because her daughter-in-law held her hostage and gossiped to her in the kitchen while the kids watched TV upstairs for hours every day. You didn't give enough consideration to the fact that Ellie's husband, Peter, might be the problem. I'll be 49 this year, and I've spent my 40s unlearning the subtle misogyny that's been bred into us all. I'm a mother myself, and although my mother-in-law is an absolute dream, I never considered spending nine hours a day with her. That's probably because I have friends, parents, and siblings, and a husband who doesn't emotionally neglect me.

53:38Maybe Ellie has no one else. I'm not excusing her taking advantage of her mother-in-law, though, so don't roll your eyes yet. Let's take a look at Peter. He seems to know very little about what his wife is doing at his mother's house. Or does he know everything? If he's the breadwinner, then why isn't he offering his mother some money when he hears that she's been feeding his family? Also, are we supposed to believe that he makes his own meals every night or eats out every day after work? Hey Pete, where the hell are you? He seems to be living a separate life from his wife and kids. Does he do anything with his family?

54:12Also, we don't know. Yeah, how would I know? Fair questions, but we don't have the answers. Freaking Pete? We deadbeat? Also, the siblings all seem to be pinning everything on Ellie. Typical clannish behavior, because bro can do no wrong. It's all very dysfunctional, and precious Peter seems to be out of the loop altogether, while the whole family bitches about his wife, who's probably struggling really badly, and completely isolated. This letter. I love her writing style. So this is what's going on in my head. She's just writing it down. Love that. Did she move away from her previous life to be there?

54:48Is her own mother an asshole? Does any of Pete's crew actually have a relationship or a conversation with her sister-in-law Ellie? I've always found that women are villainized so much more quickly than men. They either don't let granny see the kids or granny sees the kids too much. Anyway, love the show. I'd love to know if this gave you a little food for thought or are you rolling your eyes at the snowflake feminancy from Ireland? signed feeling a bit heartsick that you were so quick to point the finger at the chick. This is an interesting perspective. I appreciate it. To state the obvious, we didn't have the full story about Ellie.

55:25This is one of the interesting challenges of doing the show. And it's something Gabe and I constantly obsess about. Are we getting this right? What are we missing? What would the other person in the story have to say? We try to account for this as much as possible. We don't always do it perfectly, but it's important to us and we do our best. So I think you are making some very fair points. If I recall correctly, we did kind of nod to Peter, what he knows about the situation, what he doesn't know, what role he can play in making things fairer for his mom. You're right. It's easy to villainize Ellie.

55:52There were plenty of details in the letter that suggested she was oblivious at best and selfish at worst. But I also remember us being a little tough on the mother-in-law too, the mom of the writer, for not having the wherewithal to stand up for herself a little bit. Totally. And so is that misogyny? Are we just blaming all the women in the story because they're women? Eh, I'm not sure I agree there. But I do take your point that it can be easier to point the finger at a woman when it comes to child care than at a man who's at work during the day. And I guess because the bar is pretty low for men in the child care department, they're traditionally not as involved with the kids.

56:24But I also remember us saying that if Peter knew what was happening at the house, he might have some strong feelings about it and intervene. So I don't think we really did let him off the hook entirely either. I agree. I also don't fully buy the narrative that Peter might be the sole problem. I mean, even if he is more responsible for some of this than we appreciated at first, I think it's very rare that one party is entirely to blame for anything. The picture I got from that letter was mom was abandoning herself, which is a very interesting theme today among the moms. Ellie was probably taking advantage of her and or oblivious to how much he was asking of this mother-in-law.

57:02And then Peter is either encouraging it or he's just distracted and unaware himself. and together they all create the situation. That feels truer to me. Yeah, where I fully agree with our friend here is even if Ellie's out of line, we can be curious about her reasons. Like you said, maybe Ellie has no one else. Maybe she's spending so much time with the mom because she's lonely and exhausted and craves the connection. And that's fair. Although I do kind of remember us talking about that, how maybe time at her mother-in-law's house is actually a reprieve from childcare. We did. But what's interesting to me about this is, yes, let's absolutely be curious about Ellie's reasons for acting this way.

57:37Absolutely. But if it's born from loneliness and isolation, that's still her responsibility, right? Like we can still ask the question, why is she so lonely? Why doesn't she have other friends? I don't think it's misogyny to say, hey, why are you so isolated? What are you looking for from your mother-in-law that you should maybe be getting from a few other people and why? For sure. I'm remembering now. Didn't the letter writer say that Ellie's only friends are parents of other kids' friends? Yeah. Yeah, the other moms in the carpool line or whatever, and that's about it. Right. So, yeah, so she basically just has no friends.

58:10And so she's turning to her mother-in-law to meet all of her social child care, everything needs. But I hear you. That's compatible with her husband being emotionally checked out and distant as well. It's also true that if Peter is this kind of husband, if there are some problems in their marriage or he's just not as involved as he should be, which is definitely challenging in its own way, it's still true that she chose him and she's not asking him for more. So there's also that. Good point. But look, I totally share your view that Peter and Ellie need to be way more conscientious about what they're asking his mom to do.

58:43The money she spends on these visits, in a way, that's the least of it. But it is significant. And that's not cool to ask his mom to do. At the very least, he should be checking in with her. Are you OK hanging with Ellie and the kids so often? Can we cover the costs? Do you need anything? That would be a nice thing to do. And you're right that a number of siblings in that family were pinning most of this on Ellie. Whether that means they side with Peter and feel he can do no wrong, maybe, possibly, could totally be the case, but that's also speculation. So what I find interesting about your letter is I can hear you're very passionate about this topic, and I appreciate that.

59:17It's really good for us to see. And I do wonder if you might be mapping some of your own experiences and feelings onto this family. Mapping. Interesting. You mean projecting? Well, no. Chad GPT specifically told me not to use that word. It's mapping, Gabriel. We say mapping. Okay, we say mapping now. Got it. But look, if you've dealt with anything similar in your own family, I can't blame you for that. Some of these dynamics and biases really are universal, and that's why I'm glad you wrote in. And some of them are unique to each family, and we just don't know whether this family is actually being truly misogynistic when they serve at least some side eye.

59:52But I appreciate the questions and theories. I really do. For me, the biggest takeaway is we have to keep wondering about these people's reasons for doing what they do, even when they're doing something wrong. Also, I want to keep being curious about alternative narratives in these stories and keep an eye on any subtle misogyny that might creep in because I share your view up to a point. My takeaway from that letter still is do not sit for hours if you have to pee because you can get a UTI. News to me. That was a big lesson for me, too. It's funny you mentioned that. I've been thinking about that ever since that episode.

1:00:21Every time I'm at my desk and I have to pee, I'm like, all right, just get up and pee. Get a UTI like that mother-in-law who doesn't go to Zumba anymore. Speaking of taking a leak, now's a great time for a break. We'll be right back.

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1:01:52Bring your vision to Ferguson Home, where it all comes together. Shop top brands like Kohler or find your local showroom at fergusonhome.com. Also, in case y 'all don't know, there is a subreddit for the show. If you want to jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes, if there's an episode you like, an episode you didn't like, you got questions about something, there's additional thoughts, you want to learn from other people in the show, fam, come check it out. A lot of cool conversations happening over there. That's at the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. All right, now for the recommendation of the week.

1:02:23I am addicted to lip filler. My recommendation of the week is an artisanal salsa brand called Double Take Salsa. Double Take Salsa, it's a mom and pop based in Minnesota. It's grown from a local passion project to a beloved national brand. And they sent me a case of salsa and a bunch of hot sauce. And at first, you know, I was kind of like, all right, salsa, hot sauce, okay. But it's amazing. It's almost all gone. It's been like a month. It's flavorful. It's unique. I let my nanny try it. She eats salsa every day. She's Mexican and she loves it. She's like, this is high quality. This is good stuff.

1:02:57It's not so spicy that it knocks you on your butt. Everything is balanced really nicely. One thing that I love about it is there is a fine line with both salsa and hot sauce. There's a fine line between, wow, this adds kick and flavor. And then, you know, over the line is I can only taste the spice. my mouth is on fire and I got hiccups and I'm drinking copious amounts of water. That's not the point of hot sauce, right? It should bring out the flavors and the food and the texture, not just replace it. And this stuff really nails it for me anyway. Highly recommend this stuff. It's so good. They also, since I contacted them about this, they offered everybody listening a 25 % discount, which I think is pretty generous.

1:03:36Just go to doubletakesalsa.com, buy whatever salsa, hot sauce you want. Use code Jordan at checkout. And I want to remind everybody, recommendations of the week, they're not sponsored. They're not paid for. They are just recommendations of things we like. This one happened to be from a brand that wanted to offer listeners a discount. This is not like they sponsored it. That's why there's a code. I figured I should say that just in case anybody was wondering. By the way, you can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Use a descriptive subject line. It makes our job a lot easier.

1:04:05If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, a narcissistic fairweather friend is insisting on moving in with you and your fiancé, or you're stuck between getting mental health treatment and protecting a pension you've worked decades for, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous. All right, next up. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. My wife and I have been married for over 20 years. We've raised two wonderful kids and, in many ways, raised each other from idiot teenagers to the functional adults we are today.

1:04:35As is frequently the case when people get married too young, our marriage has been fraught with strife from day one. Those early years saw a lot of physical violence, her toward me. Infidelity, again, on her part only. Lying, gaslighting, and manipulation. I certainly won't pretend that I'm innocent of wrongdoing in our relationship, but I very much feel that I have given the best years of my life to a broken woman. Yeah, that's intense, man. So a lot of conflict in this marriage, a lot of pain. This is sad. Wow. For context, my wife grew up in an abusive home riddled with violence and substance abuse.

1:05:13She was physically abused by her father and even witnessed him nearly murder her mother on several occasions. Oh my God, that's dark. No wonder. When we got engaged at 19, I had no way of knowing the ramifications this type of trauma could wreak on a person. To top it off, about 10 years into our marriage, she shared with me that she had been sexually abused by friends and family members starting at a very young age and not ending until she left for college. Oh my God, that's terrible. Also, at one point during her teen years, her father left and started a family with another woman, only to be welcomed back by her mother about a year later.

1:05:52And the addiction and physical abuse resumed. Oh my God, holy cow, this poor woman. At first I was like, what a piece of work, but now I kind of see why she's hitting him and cheating on him and spiraling. She's just, I hope she's gotten some help. Shortly after we got together, my family revolted against her. I was blindly in love and couldn't see the red flags, but they could. They did their best to talk me out of the relationship, but I rebelled. This, of course, led to major strife between her and them, strife that continues to this day, and has resulted in me having next to no interaction with them.

1:06:25I know there's blame all around for that situation, and as an adult, I could have more interaction with them if I wanted, but honestly, it's just easier not to and avoid the battle at home. Oh, man. Interesting. So now we're hearing how he's created this situation. So it's not just his wife. It's also how he's cramping around her and trying not to provoke her and choosing her over his family to keep things on an even keel and all that. That's fascinating. The physical violence has been gone for about five years, but it was replaced with something much more devastating. A few years ago, she started using the threat of suicide as a method to get what she wanted.

1:07:04Oh my god, what a nightmare. Among other things, she has used this threat to get me to move three times, including a move across the country to be far from both our families. I went along with it thinking that she would be better if she were away from her own dysfunctional family, but of course they just decided to pack up and move near us with her support. What? That is so manipulative. I am just at a loss here. Gabe, I honestly don't know who to blame here and who to feel sorry for. There's so much stuff going on here. I know. Very confusing. So he goes on, honestly, there are too many issues to list.

1:07:37Wow. Yes, I believe you for sure. Today, she has devolved into a very bitter, angry, controlling person. She makes many demands, including that I bring her food in bed, do most of the household chores and allow her to have full control over our finances. If she ever sees me sitting down and relaxing, she gets instantly pissed and gives me a laundry list of tasks to do, even if she's in bed playing on her phone. I've listened to enough of your shows to know why she acts this way, but frankly, I'm done with it. I'm very sympathetic to her childhood trauma and how it shaped her. I've tried talking to her about it, but she just doesn't care.

1:08:15If I try to stand up for myself, she spends an hour lecturing me for being quote-unquote defensive or having a quote-unquote pride issue. This argument just shuts me down. Oh man, I'm biting my tongue. This is so hard to hear. She did try going to therapy a few years ago, but it didn't work. I only recently found out that while in therapy, she refused to acknowledge the past sexual abuse, a move that I'm sure was made out of shame. She was put on antidepressants, which she still takes, but in no way did she heal from her trauma. Therapy didn't work. Well, did you tell the therapist what was going on?

1:08:50No, I hid the most important information about my past and then gave up. Went to a shrink, put me on Paxil, called it a day. Very frustrating. But you know, to be fair, I'm sure it's more like the thought of even going near this stuff is too devastating and humiliating. So I just gave up. Okay, I hear that. But this is, that's just no way to deal with your trauma. No, clearly not. Our kids are now 22 and 19, and I love them so much. I came from a broken home and made an early vow never to walk out on my kids the way my dad walked out on me. I knew early on that our marriage was toxic and I acknowledge the fact that I'm currently in this situation because I refuse to leave.

1:09:28To me, that was, and still is, worth it. I've been able to live every day in the same home as my kids and we've somehow managed to spare them from most of our dysfunction. I'm not naive, I know some of it has been seen by them. but my wife's issues are almost exclusively directed at me. I actually think she's been a good mother to them. Our kids are very nearly out of the house, with the oldest getting married this spring and the youngest sure to fly the coop within the next few years. For years, my wife has told me that she plans to leave me when the kids move out. While I do think this has just been a manipulative threat at times, I really can't see her staying with me much longer.

1:10:06For my part, I decided a long time ago that if she doesn't leave, I will. My relationship with my kids is strong enough to survive divorce, and I feel that I've accomplished my mission of keeping the family together until it naturally grew apart. I also love my wife, believe it or not. I don't think you can spend 20 plus years with someone and not harbor serious feelings for them. I just can't handle the toxicity anymore. I'm not writing because I want to fix her or the relationship. I know that's a lost cause. I'm writing because I want to be prepared for our inevitable divorce in the near future.

1:10:41Aside from therapy, which I know you'll recommend, what practical steps should I be taking now to protect myself and be best positioned for life after marriage? I'm looking forward to a dews of a sign-off by Gabe. Don't let me down. Yeah, don't let him down, Gabe. Yeah, I know. He might stay with me for the next 20 years. Oh, ouch.

1:11:03Zing. Signed, a husband at his limit, though he knows that he's complicit in sticking around and refusing to pivot. from a wife who's been quite wicked. Now it's trying to be explicit, and it about shaking off this grimace, charting my own path without tipping it, that I'm fit to file in a minute. That was a ride, man. Both the letter and the sign-off. I feel like I need a drink, man. I'm sweating over here. This was not even my marriage. So, okay, let me start by saying I'm very sorry for what you and your kids have been through these past 20-plus years. You know better than anyone your wife's trauma, which is significant.

1:11:38Second, it sounds like it's done a real number on you. You've had to live with a person, understand a person, take care of a person who's just in a lot of pain, who's inflicted a lot of pain as well for two decades. I can only imagine the psychological toll that that's taken on you. It's just got to be immense. Obviously, you've played a role in exposing yourself to that pain. I know you know that. I know you have your reasons, but that doesn't change the fact that everything you've been through, the physical and emotional abuse of many kinds, the betrayal, the manipulation, the chaos, I'm honestly still reeling from all this.

1:12:10It is heartbreaking. It's disturbing. It's unfair. So, okay, we could probably talk for hours about everything you've been through, about your wife's trauma, about the last 20 years. There's so much to discuss, but you're looking ahead. You wanna know what practical things you should be doing right now to protect yourself and position yourself well for life on the other side of this separation. Yeah, and he's already taken away our favorite recommendation, so we can't talk about therapy. That's right, the low-hanging fruit is gone, which I have to go on record and say is absolutely one place you should be ASAP, yes, and your kids too, but that's their business at this point.

1:12:42You don't need me to tell you that you have some very real trauma of your own because of this marriage and some very important things to look at, including these qualities that blinded you to your wife's dysfunction, that kept you sticking around through all this mistreatment. I really do believe, and this is the last thing I'll say about this, I really do believe that the best thing you could do to set yourself up well here is to find a really good therapist and start talking because you have a lot to process. You're about to go through a massive transition, and I think the end of your marriage is gonna bring up a lot of big questions and feelings and new challenges, and you're really gonna wanna have that space.

1:13:17Okay, so practical. First of all, you need to find a solid attorney. If it's true your wife is already planning on leaving you, I don't know how messy the separation is gonna get, but given everything you've shared about her personality, I'd go into this assuming that it's gonna get very messy and very contentious just for the sake of being contentious. I have to imagine she's going to make everything more difficult than it has to be. I also think that because she controls all of your finances, which is a deliberate move on her part, just dividing your assets is probably going to be a clusterfuck, dude.

1:13:46She's probably going to rage at you through her attorney. She's going to drive her own attorney insane. Mark my words, she'll fire at least one or one of them will quit on her and that'll drag out the process. I don't mean to stress you out even more, but I could totally see that happening. So I'd go into this assuming that your divorce is going to be quite difficult. I would also find an attorney who understands the nuances here and who's ready and willing to fight. You need excellent representation. So honestly, if your mind's already made up, I would probably start reaching out to lawyers now.

1:14:16Book some consults. Share your story with them. Tell them your goals, your interests in this divorce. Ask them what they think is likely to happen based on what they've seen. And I would ask them, should I be documenting anything right now? What sorts of stuff? What financial steps can I legally take now? How might the court view financial control, emotional abuse? What risks do I face if she escalates these self-harm threats? Then start taking their advice now. That way, when one of you finally says, all right, I'm leaving, you're 12 steps ahead. I know that feels kind of Machiavellian, but I think you owe it to yourself to protect yourself in this way.

1:14:53Sound advice. The other thing I would be doing is rebuilding your relationships with your friends and family. I think that's so important. Read my mind, Gabe. He needs support. He needs community. The sense I'm getting from your letter is that you're very isolated, obviously from your parents, but also, I imagine, from a lot of other good people in your life. Well, she made them move away, remember? Which I assume was part of her strategy. So you're also physically far from people who could be showing up for you. That's not an accident. It sounds like the closest people in his life are probably his kids, which is wonderful, and I would not be surprised if they're bonded through all of this, but there's probably kind of like an us-against-mom thing, even if she was a good mom to them.

1:15:28They're all he has, And yeah, that's better than the alternative, but that also might've kept them from building relationships with other people outside of the immediate family. So I would start rebuilding these ties and it might take some time, especially with your parents who I assume are probably pretty concerned and perhaps a bit hurt that you chose your wife over them when it sounds like they were absolutely right in trying to protect you. You said that you could have more interaction with them if you wanted to. So that gives me hope that they are just waiting for you to reach out and say, Hey, can we try again?

1:15:57And if you're planning on separating, then I assume you don't have as much of an incentive to avoid the battle at home by being in touch with them. But if it's going to take months or even years to reconnect and repair with them, I would definitely start that process now. And that goes for anyone else in your life, extended family, friends, colleagues. You might have to go through a phase where you guys talk about all of this, where you work through any conflicts or injuries that have resulted from pulling away like this. I wouldn't wait until you separate and then start doing that work. First of all, I think that's going to send maybe not the best signal to these people.

1:16:28And B, it takes time. So I would do that work now, see how it plays out, heal whatever you need to heal so that you have this love and support you need in place when you need it. Dude, 100%. This is a version of digging the well before you get thirsty, emotionally thirsty. Totally. Psycho, spiritually parched. That's right. Before you get that cognitive cotton mouth. Exactly. I would also start making sure you're financially stable, especially since you don't control your assets. This is alarming for me. So a little thought experiment here. Imagine you get separated next week. Picture the worst case scenario, right?

1:17:01She goes nuclear. She changes your bank password. She takes your name off the account. She drains the accounts and puts them somewhere else. You can't access your retirement, your brokerage. You can't go to an ATM. You don't have petty cash. What would you do? Think about that, then work backward. Obviously, you need to talk to your attorney about how to do this in a legally compliant way. You don't want it to look like you're moving money around in a way that's not appropriate, but you might want to consider opening a personal bank account in your own name, quietly setting some money aside, opening a credit card in your own name, stuff like that.

1:17:33So you have some lifelines and a safety net. And if you're thinking like, oh my God, I can't alert her to this because she's going to get the mail, go to the UPS store or whatever and get a box and have that stuff sent there. Because if you end up leaving the house, what your mail's going there now, like you should have an address where you can pick this stuff up. Just stuff like that. So you got lifelines, you got a safety net. I would also start gathering every financial record that you can. Tax returns, bank statements, mortgage documents, insurance policies, titles for the house and the car, stuff like that.

1:18:03Just sort of slowly gather that. Also related, make sure you have access to your passport, your social security card, all that good stuff. Store copies of all that in Dropbox or Google or iCloud or somewhere secure that she cannot access. An external hard drive, I mean, that's way less secure, but whatever. You want to have visibility into the marital finances before things become adversarial. That way, you know, she can't go, oh, drain an account and then say, oh, the joint brokerage? No, that never existed. Or, you know, I don't know what you're talking about. Or, no, that was mine. That was never his.

1:18:37His name was never on there. Or just vastly understate her earnings or savings or property or overstate her expenses or stick you with credit card bills, stuff like that. All that stuff happens when things get messy. This is really crucial. Just like a victim of domestic abuse, well, which you are, a lot of your power and independence depends on your financial security. So that really, it has to be a priority. I'm still thinking about his kids. They're probably going to be a big support for him, maybe his only support for better or worse. And despite what he said about sparing them from most of his and his wife's dysfunction.

1:19:09Yeah, I don't fully buy that, by the way. I just, I don't. Sorry. I'm not sure I do either. I mean, look, maybe they shielded them from most of it. And, you know, she attacks him. She doesn't attack the kids, whatever. And if so, that's great news. But there's no way you grow up in the same house with a mom like this. You see how she treats your dad. You see how she's dealt with her own pain and you're not affected by it. I don't know. I know that he's acknowledging that. I'm just appreciating what a number she has probably done on their kids as well. I'm struggling to understand how she could have been a good mother to them when she's like this.

1:19:41But he did say her stuff is almost exclusively directed at him. She's been a good mom to the kids, apparently. I really, really hope that's true. But even if it is true, that's still awful for kids to witness or even just, like, sense in the house. Mom and dad are not okay. Something is not right here. I have some strong feelings about the whole I vowed never to walk out on my kids the way my dad walked out on me thing. Yeah, I do too, I have to say. Like, look, I appreciate where he's coming from. This is a big reason he stayed. That was obviously a huge wound for him. He doesn't want to recreate it with his own kids.

1:20:12Right. But that didn't prevent all the damage from being done. The problem was getting married to her in the first place, not divorcing her when he realized things were this bad. Exactly. And how much more pain and chaos did he subject himself and his kids to by staying? I understand the logic, okay? I just, I don't want to, he's saying, I don't want to do to my kids what my dad did to me, but I don't understand how it holds up when you really consider the consequences. There's no perfect outcome when you break up a family, but sometimes staying together really is worse for everyone involved, and that has to be true in this case.

1:20:45Well, you know, that's up to him to decide, and I understand that he doesn't want us to, like, therapize him too much, but I have to imagine that not growing up with a father, yeah, that informed this decision to stick around, but I think it also must have played some kind of role in why he ended up with this particular wife and why he struggles to stand up to her and protect himself. A hundred percent, man. When he shared that, my heart broke a little. This is his trauma. It sounds like unaddressed. And when this stuff goes unaddressed, it can lead you to some pretty dangerous situations. He knows he's in this situation because he refused to leave, but then he said that wasn't still as worth it.

1:21:19And I guess I'm with you. I'm just, I'm not entirely sure about that. I'd love to ask him that question again in six months or a year, five years, see if it's still true. Maybe it is for him. Or maybe when he's out, he sees what he's been through. He'd be like, I cannot believe I stuck around. That's my bet. I guess it depends on how wed he is to the idea of keeping the family together at all costs. But anyway, my point in bringing up the kids was just now that they're adults, I would maybe think about having some very open conversations with them about what the last 20 years have been like, you know, give them space to talk about mom and to talk about her honestly and share what their childhood was like and how they're feeling these days, what they make of all of this.

1:21:57If they have any thoughts or feelings about her or the marriage, even about you, our friend here, which is hard to bear, I know, but might be very liberating and healing for them to be able to share with you. So one thing you can do to set yourself up well for life after separation is really make sure that you and your kids are in a good place. Make it safe for them to talk to you about what this has been like, because it sounds like they're going to be very important people to you when you go through this transition. They can't be the only people, and there are certain things that you probably should not bring to your kids while you go through a divorce, but starting these conversations could be a game changer for all of you.

1:22:31I think it could also really help you guys stay close through all of this, and you guys all deserve that. Totally agree, Gid. The last thing I want to say is, as you can tell, we both feel that you've co-created this situation and enabled your wife in various ways, and I know you know that, but no one deserves to go through what you've been through. Maybe the most difficult detail you've shared with us in some ways is the threats to commit suicide to get you to do what she wants. I just, I find that incredibly disturbing. It's incredibly unfair. And I genuinely worry about the impact that this has had on you.

1:23:02If she does that again, it sounds like it might be ongoing. I would really encourage you to take a beat and consider if you really want to play along. And I would encourage you to look into other responses, crisis lines, emergency services, mental health professionals, or nothing and just see what happens. I know that sounds terrible, but I would not give in and play along again. Also, Dark Jordan peeking out, if she does end up in an ER or the police do a wellness check and she gets put on an involuntary hold or she has to enter a facility or something, that could become useful in divorce proceedings.

1:23:34I'm not telling you to do any of these in order to screw her over, not explicitly anyway. But if she's saying, I'm gonna kill myself if you don't stay home more or whatever, and you're like, okay, I hear you that you intend to hurt yourself, I'm calling 911. one, and if there are consequences attached to that, that is on her, dude. She said it. She's doing this to herself. But my main point is, I would start asserting yourself appropriately here and start looking for small ways to release these roles your wife has put you in, especially this one of keeping her alive and keeping her stable. It must be exhausting and beyond stressful to maintain.

1:24:07And that's going to have to end eventually. You might as well start taking steps towards that now. Separating is not going to be easy, but it is going to be life-changing, liberating, clarifying, monumental. I am genuinely excited for you. So take good care of yourself, man. Start putting bricks in this wall, sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best. Go back and check out Ben Jordan and our Skeptical Sunday on water filters if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network. It's the circle of people I know, like, and trust.

1:24:36I'm teaching you how to do the same thing for yourself in our six-minute networking course. The course is free. It's not gross. It's not schmoozy. You can find it on the Thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com. Drills take a few minutes a day. Dig that well before you get thirsty, folks. Build relationships before you need them. You can find it all for free at sixminutenetworking.com. Show notes and transcripts are on the website. Advertisers, discounts, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. I'm at jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn.

1:25:06Gabe's on Instagram, Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tata Sadlowskis, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

1:25:39One day, the encryption protecting your bank account, medical records, and private messages will simply stop working. Not because of a hack, but because computers get smart enough to break it instantly. The scary part? That day is already being planned for, and your data may already be saved for later. Quantum computers actually are a real step in evolution in the way that everybody knows about a binary state, zeros and ones, on and off. Well, that was and is the technology for the classic computers today. We've improved technologically much faster than we have been able to as a society come up with ways to prevent the harm.

1:26:19Quantum computers can lead to what's called Q-Day or I prefer to call it Digital Disaster Day, D-Day 2, because that's the day when all the digital secrets that the normal computers can't crack through encryption are going to be cracked by quantum computers. And that is really what gets people's attention. Combine that with AI and boy, we've really got a one-two punch that can make humanity take these giant technological leaps that we had no idea could possibly happen. And that's one of the big fears is AI that a lot of people are worried about. Now quantum's coming around the corner. It makes it even twice as scary.

1:26:57It's a huge mixed bag of possibilities for everybody that are great and also danger, you know, Terminator-level existential problems. All the doomsday preppers actually are onto something. If this does happen in the next few years, we're really going to be in big trouble. That's why I'm sort of an evangelist out there trying to speak on it and let people know this is a major problem. We can't just stick our head in the sand. To hear from quantum expert John Young on what Q-Day is, why it matters now, and what happens when our digital security hits its expiration date, check out episode 1261 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.

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