1319: Is Your Loving Wife Living a Closeted Life? | Feedback Friday

19:42Gabriel Mizrahi:Yeah, that's kind of the vibe I'm getting, really. That's the vibe side of kindness, if you want to put it that way. Like if he's so gentle toward his wife that he's making it hard to have some pointed conversations that might provoke her, that could be another way that he is inadvertently making this harder. Such an important point. I might even go a step further and say your goal obviously shouldn't be to hurt your wife, but part of your job might be to gently and appropriately push her to talk about some things that might bring up some difficult feelings in her, for example. Because to say the obvious, there's no growth or progress or coming to terms without some pain.

20:19That's just, that's how it works. There just isn't. You can't do that.

20:22Gabriel Mizrahi:Of course. His love for her is very touching and it is real. It's a huge gift in her life, a huge gift. But love is compatible with challenging a person, with expecting them to tell you the truth. Yes. Calling their attention to the things they need to look at, being in a difficult process with them without taking over, challenging them to put words to feelings, even as you're being patient, whatever it is, it's not going to be a walk in the park. So that's where your wife's story becomes about you. In a way, you're both coming out of the closet, different closets, both involve fear, shame, fragility, and uneasiness around your true needs.

20:58And hey, maybe that's even something you bring to her or bring up in couples therapy and you show her what it looks like to say some difficult things and open yourself up to help. Maybe that'll show her that it's survivable and she'll be inspired to do the same. I'm really sorry you and your wife have been through all this. I'm also, again, touched by the way you've shown up for her through all of this. You guys are a really special team. I'm confident that with courage, vulnerability, the ability to say, here's what I need and here's where we're heading, you guys will talk, listen, come to the right decision about your marriage.

21:28Whatever grief you feel along the way, and there will be grief. It's not a sign you're doing something wrong. In fact, it's probably a sign that you guys are moving into important territory. As long as you're both moving towards the truth, the truth about yourselves, the truth about your relationship, I don't think you can go wrong here. I really believe that. Sending you and your wife a big hug and wishing you all the best. All right. You know who wants to be in your closet? The amazing sponsors who support this show. We'll be right back.

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24:18It is your support of our sponsors that keeps the lights on around here. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, next up.

24:35Gabriel Mizrahi:Dear Jordan and Gabe, When I was younger, I was fully committed to family. This was instilled in me being from Brazil, as well as being a sensitive person. Coming to the States at the age of five was incredibly traumatic for various reasons. I was ripped away from my entire family, was terrified and bullied at school for not speaking English, lived with a volatile uncle who I saw chasing someone in our house with a hammer to attack him physically at age five or six. And countless other stories that, in hindsight, would clearly cause complex PTSD. And they did. Jeez, what a formative experience.

25:13I'm sorry to hear about all this. Being an immigrant is wild, man. You know, it's interesting. I know somebody else who was sent from Brazil to the U.S. as a toddler to live with essentially super distant family. It's a thing I've heard of before. It's not unusual.

25:28Gabriel Mizrahi:My mother, while charming and personable, has often displayed unstable and narcissistic-like behavior. We moved around a lot every couple of years, other than high school, where I spent four years. She has married and divorced three times and has been dating a married man for the past 20 years. She was physically very loving, but mentally, I've realized it was all pretty toxic. Wow, that's quite a mom to have. During my mom's second marriage, stepdad number one, they had my sister who was born in the U.S., half Brazilian, half American. Since she was a toddler, she has had an insatiable need for attention that has continued into her adult life.

26:06Gabriel Mizrahi:To give you an example, I was in a relationship once, and this guy, his family, and I were having a conversation. She jumped in and tried to interrupt with an unrelated topic, but nobody paid attention to her, and she complained about it during a conversation several years later. Wow, imagine hanging on to the slightest of slights for literally years. Jeez. This girl keeps receipts. No, that's an invoice. There's a ledger. My goodness. Girls on QuickBooks, ticking and tying. So she goes on, there's also been this weird competitive aspect to our relationship. When I was working in skincare, all of a sudden she wanted to open a skincare business.

26:41Gabriel Mizrahi:When I met my husband in Spain, all of a sudden she took a trip to Spain and started posting photos with a guy who could have passed from my husband's cousin. If I talk about any subject that's important to me, she all of a sudden has an interest in it, and seems like she uses it to garner attention. We have a pretty estranged relationship due to this and a combination of events, and I reached a point about 15 years ago where I just couldn't handle the family dynamic and distanced myself almost completely from my sister, and quite a bit from my mother. At some point, my sister became kind of obsessed with quote-unquote proving how Brazilian she is.

27:19Gabriel Mizrahi:She had the keychain, wore the t-shirt, and became very performative about it. Huh. Sounds a little bit like you, Gabe. You know what? Because I know where this letter is going, I resent that. All right. I'm just saying, hey, if the bracelet fits, if the seed bracelet fits. I brought it up while we still had some kind of relationship, and she said it was because she wanted to, quote, learn about moms and your culture, unquote, but it seemed like a way to get more attention. Around that time, it was much more culturally accepted to be from another country, and it was even considered exotic. I'm pretty sure Brazilian is still considered fairly exotic to most people, but I take your point.

27:56Gabriel Mizrahi:Fast forward to the past couple of years, and she's been trying to become an influencer. No surprise there. I've had to stop watching her feed because it's filled with performative content. On top of all that, my sister and her husband moved to Switzerland for his job for four or five years, and since they've been back, she's acting like she wasn't born and raised here, saying things like, we're having culture shock being back, and mentioning that her son isn't understanding English in school when my sister and her husband are both native English speakers. Yeah, hilarious. Sorry, but this is every 19-year-old who studies abroad and comes back with a slight fake accent, or not so slight fake accent, and the hairdo of the country they lived in and a tattoo of the flag, except she's a full-grown-ass adult and a mother.

28:40I'm getting a picture of this woman. In fact, when I was an exchange student in Germany, at the end of the program, we all got together, all the Americans, people I hadn't seen since the first couple days of the exchange. They were all over the country. And there was definitely an inverse proportion to if your German was really good at the end, it was like, oh, it's going to be great to go home. And I'm excited about it. And you were doing great. And all the kids whose German at the end of the year was still garbage because they'd spent the whole year speaking English. They were like, I barely understand English now.

29:15I had to look up the words. I don't even know what you're talking about. And I'm like, that's sad because now you speak zero languages. So what are you going to do? And they're like, I don't even know how I'm going to go back to school. It's going to be impossible. I have to relearn English. No, not at all. But yeah, we get it. Or people would have like a German accent. And I'm like, why are you speaking English with a German accent? You would have had to learn that. That's so weird. It's Madonna going to the UK, living in London, and suddenly doing her next interview with a fake-ass British accent.

29:44It's so beyond cringe.

29:46Gabriel Mizrahi:There have been many other examples of this, but I want to keep this as concise as possible. I wish you didn't, but okay, I appreciate that. This is all incredibly triggering for me as an actual immigrant who went through the very real difficulties of coming to this country in the 80s. It's like she's trying to put on the varsity jacket as though it's her experience. While it's not full-on cultural appropriation, it feels like some version of it. Yeah, what is that? When you culturally appropriate your own culture? I don't know. Could you do that? Cultural auto-appropriation? Yeah, cultural auto-appropriation.

30:22I like that. Did you make that up? I don't know what it means fully, but somehow I also do. Performative. She's being performative. And that's annoying. She is half Brazilian, fine, but there's an act going on here.

30:34Gabriel Mizrahi:I've been able to distance myself, but when I go to her house to see my nephews, it seems like she's convinced herself that she's this whole other being, because maybe it makes her seem more interesting or exotic? Yeah, thousand percent. It's almost like when kids get a Disney princess makeover, and then they're singing and doing the LSA, except when they're four, it's cute. When they're 24, it's a little strange. Part of me wants to have a conversation with her about this, or write a letter to communicate these feelings. not because I think it'll change our relationship or make us any closer, but because it's almost unbearable being around her.

31:10Gabriel Mizrahi:And I would like to continue being able to see my nephews. I've been in therapy in the past for a lot of these issues, but I can't think of a way to express this mindfully and would appreciate your thoughts and perspective. Signed, finding it quite touchy to talk to my sister about our ancestralidade. Oh, wow, nice. Okay, Duolingo. Mr. Worldwide over here. I dedicate that sign off to Brazil, which continues to blow my mind. Such a cool language, especially the way they speak down there. It's very exotic. Oh, dude, it's something else. Because you know that I learned Portuguese a little bit in Portugal.

31:43Gabriel Mizrahi:And it's just, it's very like, and like the syllables get collapsed. And here it's like music, man, everywhere you go. It's so awesome. Portuguese from Portugal. It sounds like drunk Spanish to me. But Portuguese from Brazil. It sounds like also drunk, but very respectful of foreplay. it's a flirtatious country you might get a little pregnant settling up you don't know sexy so this is a super interesting story this reminds me a little bit of this dude glenn before college you have an orientation so you get together with i don't know like 20 students that are gonna go in and you have this little cadre there was this guy glenn and he was from a suburb and he wore ll bean sweaters and birkenstocks and stuff like that and he was quiet and shy and he had this normal sort of like basic white dude haircut and he was very nice and then when we got to school there was this crazy loud dude who was like yo what's up what's up y 'all and his name was Antonio and it turned out to be the same guy so he went from the L.L.

32:47Bean catalog to repping death row records inside of 60 days it was crazy I've never seen a transformation like that and I

32:55Gabriel Mizrahi:over the summer. Yeah. And I was like, Glenn. And he was like, what's up, my peeps? And I was like, it was so bizarre. But here's the thing. He was so charismatic and so outgoing and so nice to everyone that no one called him out on it because it was just like, that's Glenn. And I'm like, I can't believe it. But he was so cool. It's like nobody kind of wanted to out him because it was clearly he was kind of ashamed of who he was before and he'd come out of his shell. And maybe his middle name was Antonio. I'm just not even going to question that. I don't understand what happened there. But yeah, he went from like corn fed, normal, basic white dude who probably thought he wasn't interesting enough as a person to Yo MTV Raps host.

33:37And it was really weird and unusual. But again, he was so nice that everybody just kind of let it go. So yeah, first of all, I just want to acknowledge what a journey you've been on leaving your home country at five, having to leave family behind, living with a violent, crazy person, being bullied at school. This is intense stuff. Very formative. And I'm so sorry that it left a mark on you. It sounds like you have an actual CPTSD diagnosis. And I get it. A lot of people do. A lot of immigrants do, especially moving to another country, obviously really exciting and stimulating. And I'm sure it brought you a lot of gifts and possibilities.

34:11But yeah, it's also very isolating. It's intense. It's a lonely journey at a vulnerable age, no less. And I'm just very sorry about all of it. That said, you sound like quite a thoughtful, grounded, well-adjusted person. It sounds like you also have a good sense of boundaries and how to take care of yourself. And I commend you for that. So your sister, candidly, I don't know exactly what to make of all this. Is it narcissism? Is it insecurity? Is it instability? Is it envy? Does she feel like she doesn't belong with you and your mom and this is a point of connection. Is she just a really good influencer?

34:45Because all these people are like that. And she does she to lean into certain tropes to create a brand. She's got to have a thing. Honestly, it sounds like all of this could be going on at the same time. But based on what you've shared, my gut is telling me that your sister is mostly just incredibly insecure. And it's not even insecurity about not being Brazilian enough. I think it's insecurity about not being anything enough. See also Glenn Antonio transformation, just not being enough. And waving this flag, so to speak, cosplaying her own culture, I have a feeling that's a way to kind of, you know, shore up her identity, to give her a sense of stability and belonging, maybe a little bit of power.

35:23Obviously, right? Why else would a person do this? The I'm so Brazilian thing, or the whole I'm so just not from here thing. We're so international. It's gotta be serving some purpose. Unless you were being shamelessly practical, like I want to be a Brazilian influencer and this is the way to do it. I have to perform myself. Even then, I think it's fair to ask why. Now, why your sister is like that, I don't know. You've shared quite a bit about your adverse childhood experiences, your ACEs. I'm sure your sister has her own. Yeah.

35:55Gabriel Mizrahi:Well, the biggest one might be being the daughter of this mother, too, because they share this mother. What did she say about her mother? Charming, personable, unstable, narcissistic. Narcissistic-like, inconsistent, flighty. Sounds a bit impulsive. Yeah, all of these. And her father was stepdad number one, who was one of the three men she married and divorced. Not a great sign. I'm also not totally clear on the timeline and the ages here, but mom has been dating a married man for the last 20 years. So she said she came here in the 80s, and her sister was born later. Okay, we don't know, but possibly this relationship with this guy happened during the sister's adolescence as well, right?

36:31Yeah, I actually can't believe I already forgot that detail. A married man for 20 years. Wow. Okay, so mom is a mistress. So plenty of trauma right there. I can kind of see the math of narcissistic mom probably not attending to her daughter's needs very well, daughter feeling the need to get attention from other sources and kind of spiraling when she doesn't succeed. I'm sure it's way more nuanced than that, but I can imagine the impact.

36:55Gabriel Mizrahi:Yeah, plus there's baseline personality and her position in the family and feeling like she isn't as connected to their roots as our friend here is, which all of this dysfunction aside is that's a legitimate feeling. A lot of people struggle with that. So yeah, there are plenty of reasons she might be doing this is my point. you kind of have two options here they're not mutually exclusive one option is knowing your sister has her own wounds and challenges you empathize with her you let it roll off your back you forgive her you don't watch her instagram you stay out of her business it's weird it's embarrassing it's attention seeking yes and it's coming from a wounded place inside her and she deserves some compassion for that and maybe one day down the line she'll start to face it option two is you just go at this directly with her and you try and help her see herself more clearly get at the roots of this thing and help her change.

37:41There are frankly good arguments to be made for both. I can't really say which one's going to be more effective or which one is right. I think it really comes down to your sister's capacity for hearing feedback, especially from you, having some vulnerable conversations about her feelings around this culture thing, her willingness to entertain new ideas and see herself more objectively. You, of course, know her way better than we do. You also know yourself way better than we do, because that's the other thing. You have to be willing to have this conversation. And if it doesn't go well, you have to kind of also be prepared to sit with those feelings and only you can know if it's worth it.

38:17Gabriel Mizrahi:What if there's a middle way? What if she says to her sister, so, hey, I know that feeling Brazilian is really important to you. I know living in Switzerland was a big deal for you guys. I've noticed that being international seems like that's becoming more and more meaningful to you. You're talking about it more and more. I want to understand it better. So like, how are you feeling about our heritage these days? Do you think of yourself as more Brazilian or more American? Or how do those two fit together? And what is it about Brazil or Switzerland or whatever country that speaks to you, do you think?

38:48Gabriel Mizrahi:When you talk about this with people or when you post about it on Instagram, what comes up for you? And just start there. Yeah, I like that. Even if she's well within her rights to wave the Brazilian flag and eat moqueca while wearing a Brazilian flag t-shirt on Instagram or whatever, it's still an interesting question. why? What are you doing? Look, her sister might not love these questions, right? And if she gets angry and shuts down, fine. That's also good data. Then you can either say, you seem angry. Did I say something that hurt you? Is this hard to talk about? You know, like, how am I coming across?

39:19Gabriel Mizrahi:You could draw her out a little bit. Or you can let it go knowing that your sister just is not ready to have this conversation. Or she's not interested in having this conversation. Or your sister might engage with you and slowly but surely you guys can start digging into this whole question, which is such a fascinating question, like about identity and performance and how you present that to the world. And maybe over time, that will lead to some insights that do change the way she talks about her culture, or maybe she stops talking about it at all. These are also possible. I also wonder if she has a shred of self-awareness or curiosity, which I suppose is an open question.

39:55If our friend here starts asking this stuff, her sister might pick up on the subtext, the subtext being, you might want to be more thoughtful about how you wave this flag so it lands the right way. Or maybe take a beat and think about why being Brazilian is so important to you, and maybe she'll kind of self-correct.

40:09Gabriel Mizrahi:That would be great. This is all kind of an experiment. My only caveat is try not to just think of this as a technique. Like, you're asking these meaningful questions, but really they're just thinly veiled judgments, right? Your judgments are not entirely unfair. I get why this gets under your skin. But if you're just disguising them as questions, she'll probably feel that, and she sounds particularly sensitive to that kind of stuff. So if you're going to ask, really ask and really listen and see if anything she says helps you understand her better. Maybe there's something you don't know about how she feels about being Brazilian.

40:42Gabriel Mizrahi:And if it doesn't help you understand her better, you could say that. You could say, I'm really trying to understand you better. I really want to understand this whole Brazil thing. I'm not really understanding. I'm not sure I'm getting there. And maybe ask her to elaborate. And then you can decide whether to do anything with that in terms of actually saying, sis, I have some feedback for you. Here's how it's coming across. Here's what I would think about if I were you. It's a really interesting dilemma, how to tell a close family member that they're being cringe and tone deaf, whether to tell them.

41:08It's scary because people who are this unselfaware, they also have the potential to be very wounded by criticism, which again, is probably part of the trauma. So if you work up to addressing this, you have to be prepared to touch a tender part of her personality and live with the implications. It might not be pretty, but it might be worth the tension if it gives her some information that she needs.

41:30Gabriel Mizrahi:I'm just thinking about the fact that her sister seems to take an interest in all the same things that she does. In a way, yes, that is a bit weird. I also wonder if that's just a little sister wanting to emulate her big sister and be part of the same things and be accepted in this family in the same way and be close with our friend here. I mean, we all want to belong. That's a universal human thing. And maybe the whole I'm so Brazilian thing is more about that belonging than it is about attention seeking. I just want to make some room for that possibility. That's a fair point. I really do get why this rubs her the wrong way.

42:02But when she talks to her sister, I think she also runs the risk of gatekeeping being Brazilian. Like, I'm the only one who can be Brazilian because I was actually born there and I'm 100 % Brazilian and you're just half. And I'm not sure that's entirely fair either.

42:15Gabriel Mizrahi:That's a good point, because if we were hearing from her little sister and her sister were like, my older sister is 100 % Brazilian and I'm half and she doesn't like it when I talk about my Brazilian culture, I feel like we might say, first of all, OK, does your sister have a point a little bit, but also who is your sister to tell you how you get to talk about your heritage? And why does your sister's opinion matter to you so much? Exactly. The challenge for both of them is to move between these two perspectives to see what they have to learn. So maybe we need to ask the question, why does this bother her so much?

42:44Gabriel Mizrahi:Again, I understand that it's cringe. I think we can all agree. And I also get why watching a family member perform something that's very close to your heart is annoying. What is it specifically that triggers her so much about her sister doing this. What is it about her sister doing this that pushes her buttons besides the fact that it's her sister? Only you can really know that, but it might be worth articulating for yourself so you can start to figure out how much of this is your sister's fault and how much of this is your reaction. I'm glad we got here because I think this is probably more complicated than just, my sister's so annoying, but then to be fair, this might be the 90th annoying thing her sister's done in their lives and it's just getting worse, which I also get.

43:22Anyway, I hope that gives you some new approaches. And if your sister needs any Brazilian bracelets for her live stream, just email Gabe. I'm sure he'd be happy to rent them out for a small fee.

43:31Gabriel Mizrahi:A couple of vegan moquecas is my usual price. So there's that. That seems fair. Something with maracuja in it, perhaps. You guys will work something out. Good luck. By the way, you can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If your husband won't stop hanging out with an old rebound, your company cut off your fertility benefits mid-cycle and you're spiraling, or your sibling wrote into Feedback Friday with a wildly different version of events from what actually happened to you and you want to fill in the blanks.

44:01I've been thinking about that letter all week since we took it. Hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. All right, you know it's definitely cringe, shameless podcast ads, but it is our culture. We'll be right back. This episode is also sponsored in part by BetterHelp. I'm around high-level performers all the time, people who've built massive companies, launched huge platforms, sold businesses for millions, and created things that changed their industries. I'll catch myself comparing, why isn't my show as big as Joe Rogan or whatever? Why didn't I build some multi-million dollar podcast software company on the side?

44:35That kind of financial and career stress can sneak up on you. The comparison, the pressure, feeling like your worth is somehow tied to the scoreboard, that stuff can affect your mood, your sleep and your relationships a lot more than you realize. Therapy can help with that, not because it's giving you business advice, but because it can help you manage the anxiety, the stress, and the shame that can come with constantly measuring yourself against, frankly, impossible standards. BetterHelp matches you with a licensed therapist based on a short questionnaire, and if it's not the right fit, you can switch anytime.

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46:46Gabriel Mizrahi:Hello, Jordan and Gabe. My eight-year-old son has always been incredibly smart. He started reading phonetic words at age two and has a brilliant mind for math. But when he was six and in first grade, we had a lot of struggles with school. Unlike kindergarten, grade one meant sitting at a desk and listening to a teacher while remaining still and quiet. My son did not do well in this environment. As a six-year-old who could read better than most grade fives, he took no interest in sitting and learning that T and H together make the F sound. Needless to say, he was disruptive to the general class and at times would let his frustration out by flipping a table, literally, or just getting up and walking out of class.

47:28Gabriel Mizrahi:His teacher was not happy with him and refused to believe my husband and me when we said that he was gifted. He wouldn't complete work because coloring in the square with his favorite color was not an engaging task for him. No doubt. You know, it's funny. I had a similar, a similar problem. I didn't flip tables, but I exhibited very similar behaviors. My mom would tell the teachers I was gifted and they were like, whatever, your son's a knucklehead. He can't even pay attention. And then later I got into the gifted program at schools and the teachers were like, oh, why didn't he apply earlier? And my mom wanted to just murder all of them.

47:58So yeah, I relate to your son. He must have been going out of his mind.

48:01Gabriel Mizrahi:This is like asking John Nash to do arithmetic. Carry the one, Johnny. Literally, hey, baby Einstein, focus. We're learning the abacus. And he's like, all right, I'm doing long division over here. One time there was a project where the class was reading a story about moles and mittens, and they were encouraged to draw the last page of the story for how they thought it should end. My son wrote with perfect spelling, this story is stupid on his page. I mean, that is funny. Whatever. This made me laugh and made his teachers infuriated. To him, the exercise was unintelligent, so he wasn't wrong. There were also times where the classroom had to be evacuated because of his impulsive behavior.

48:40Gabriel Mizrahi:He even had to be restrained by adult special aid workers on one occasion because he was trying to leave the school. I received almost daily calls about things he had done or ways that he was not falling in line. Okay. Well, yeah, that must have been hard for you guys. Wow. So we had him evaluated by a psychologist and he tested in the 98th percentile for reading comprehension and the 99th percentile for math. Yeah. Okay. So this happened to me as well, except I believe I was 98 in math and 99 for reading and the teachers were confused because I was the kid who didn't pay attention at all. And it's like, how does he know how to do all this?

49:16Are you sure he took the test with everyone else? I remember this whole kerfuffle, like, how did he do that? It was called the CAT test. I'm from Michigan, but it was the California Achievement Test. Probably the same thing you took.

49:27Gabriel Mizrahi:So interesting. We took this thing. It was probably one of the only standardized tests. So my Michigan school district bought it, and we took it. And I remember being like, this is stupid and really easy, and finished early. And since I finished early, they assumed, oh, he's going to bomb this test. I just told my mom it was really easy. And then when I scored in the 99th percentile overall, they were like, what happened? We don't understand this. That's how I ended up going into the gifted and talented program at school, because it turned out like, oh, he's just really bored in your class. He's not a dumb kid.

49:56He's freaking bored out of his mind. That didn't last too long because, you know, other kids catch up.

50:01Gabriel Mizrahi:When I hear stories like you and this kid, it just makes me wonder what would happen to so many kids if teachers took a genuine interest in the unique abilities of each child or like tried to get curious about why it's so hard for certain ones to focus instead of just kind of like dismissing a kid like this for just can't focus can't do it is not respectful there's something going on it turns out that he's really talented it's a shame there was a kid who was a quote-unquote bad kid when i was in pre-kindergarten and he grew up to be a famous artist because he was just super ridiculously creative and talented but he didn't want to sit there and do whatever, they were like, oh, he's bad.

50:38He's a bad kid. Crazy.

50:40Gabriel Mizrahi:What was that guy's name who had that really amazing TED talk? Sir Ken Robinson? Oh, yeah. Such a good TED talk about kids' unique talents. Okay, so the letter goes on. He also just barely met the threshold for an ADHD diagnosis with impulsive behavior tendencies. Now that we had the formal diagnosis, the school had to take him and us seriously. We also labeled his behavior as big emotions and attempted to separate them from him as a person. I never wanted him to think that he was bad. He just didn't have the skills to properly navigate real-world situations. Fast forward to grade two. I am a nervous wreck.

51:17Gabriel Mizrahi:But he ends up having an incredible connection with his teacher, and he has an absolutely amazing year. During that year, we registered him for something called Forest School, an independent outdoor school that gives children the chance to spend six hours out in nature one day a week instead of traditional school. It's a way to reset his attention, get some curiosity and energy out, and have some rare freedom. Cool, that's a good idea. So cool. One day I picked my son up from Forrest School and the teacher informed me that another student sucker punched him in the stomach for no apparent reason.

51:49Gabriel Mizrahi:I gave him hugs and love and we got back to the car to talk about it. He was really quiet as we drove and I said, Do you have any pain, buddy? He sniffled and replied, no, mom, I just didn't want to be involved in any bad behavior this year. Those words were such a gut punch. He clearly internalized a lot from the previous year and associated being the victim with bad behavior. My son is now in grade three and positively thriving. He hardly has any big outbursts, has the most incredible empathetic outlook on life, and will ask you the most in-depth questions and be genuinely interested in the answers.

52:24Gabriel Mizrahi:He continues to be exceptionally gifted in math and reading and socially, he's calmed down significantly. No more table flipping. Yeah, he sounds like a remarkable kid. Gabe, it's amazing to me that he barely passed the threshold for ADHD and it's like, oh, where we had to evacuate the entire classroom because he was throwing furniture. Where is the threshold for this? What more does it take? Seriously, come on, man. Then a few weeks ago, he was sitting alone at one end of the classroom and doing an independent activity during free time. A boy from a group he avoids walks over to my son and whispers in his ear, I'm gonna kill you.

52:59Gabriel Mizrahi:These are eight-year-olds. Needless to say, my son was upset and immediately told the teacher. We dealt with it with the administration, and ultimately my son forgave the boy and accepted his apology. Two weeks after that, the teacher from forest school pulls me aside to say he had an altercation with another young boy. My son was going into the shed to get supplies, and this other boy closed the door and locked him in intentionally. My son managed to get the door open from inside and was pretty upset. This boy came back and intended to lock him in again, but my son put his foot in the door to stop him from closing it.

53:33Gabriel Mizrahi:The other boy proceeded to kick my son in the shin so he would fall and then closed and locked the door again. Once again, my son managed to get his way out and told the teacher. The issue was addressed, and the boy wrote my son an apology letter. My son corrected all of the spelling mistakes and handed it back to the boy and told him he forgives him. Savage, dude. Oh, my God. I love that. I accept your apology, your poorly written apology. Here you go, Clyde. Here's my red line copy. Hit the books, pal. Maybe you'll learn something. Oh, my God, dude. Wow. That's a super sad story. And my heart breaks for your son that he's being bullied so much.

54:12But man, that is such a nerd power move, man. I love it.

54:16Gabriel Mizrahi:I've spoken at length with my son about both of these traumatic events, and he seems completely at peace with things. But my heart keeps going back to the little boy crying in the car. How do I help my son navigate these things? Do you think this is weighing on him and impacting his growth and development? Signed, a mama bear trying to prepare to learn best how to care for her son in despair. Man, this is such a fascinating story. It's such a fascinating child to have. I'm thinking about everything you've shared. I want to take a moment to appreciate, to really appreciate just how challenging it is to have a child with any kind of special need, a gifted child, any child really who doesn't conform to quote unquote normal, whatever that means in this world, not normal.

54:58It's increasingly a virtue, but I digress. When I hear stories like this, I realize how little most parents probably understand about the unique demands on families like this. And that said, part of me does wonder just how traumatizing this kind of thing is for a boy. I hate that he's being bullied. It makes me sad, but there's a part of me that maybe just internalized too much 80s nonsense, but there's a part of me that's like, ah, this is just boy shit. Boy shit. Yeah, boy shit. I went through it. A lot of us went through it. It wasn't this bad, but I said mean stuff to other kids when I was young.

55:30Other kids said mean stuff to me. People punched me. I punched them. I'm still in touch with a bunch of them. We're all okay. It doesn't always do like lifelong damage.

55:39Gabriel Mizrahi:Interesting. So you're like wondering, are boys more resilient to bullying than girls? Maybe? I'm not sure. I don't know about bullying in general, but like physical stuff. Boy Scouts, we used to just knock the crap out of each other. And then it was just fine after that. I don't know. It was like the military or something. And I kind of take your point. There were like two kids growing up, one in fourth grade and one I want to say in sixth grade, and they were both a grade or two above me who kind of roughed me up a few times at school. And I remember it being fairly upsetting. Actually, now that I think about it, both of them, this is pretty sad, but both of them were being abused at home.

56:14Gabriel Mizrahi:It came out later, so it was sad all around, probably sadder for them. But I'm okay now, I guess. I can't say this stuff left a huge mark. So maybe you have a point. It's just boy shit. On the other hand, I think it really depends on the type of bullying and the sources of the bullying and how often it's happening and, you know, how being hurt by other kids affects your unique personality. I mean, I know people who are like severely wounded by how they were treated by the other kids at school, even as adults. It's kind of embarrassing to acknowledge, but it's real. So I don't know. Yeah, it might be boy shit in the sense that boys do this stuff and don't think about how it lands.

56:51Gabriel Mizrahi:but that doesn't mean it isn't having an effect, especially for a kid who is pretty different. Fair enough. I'm not trying to minimize what this kid might be going through. And like I said, I wish it weren't happening, of course. I just wonder if boys are more resilient than their moms give them credit for. And you mentioned that the kids who bullied you were abused at home. I got this random Facebook message. This is 10 years ago now or something, but I was in my 30s. I got this random Facebook message. It was from like Mark R. And I was like, hi, guy who doesn't put his full name on Facebook.

57:20what's going on? And his profile photo, he looked tired, sad, and he had face tats. And I was like, I do not obviously recognize this guy. And he goes, we went to school together. And I was like, holy crap, Mark Robbins, it was a kid in my neighborhood. He was a bully. And I was like, how are you? And he's like, I just got out of prison for DUI felony DUI. And I was like, oh, okay. And he was trying to talk to me. And I was just like, dude, I'm shocked you're trying to talk to me because you terrorized half the school. And it wasn't horrible, but he was not a nice person. And I was like, God, what happened to this guy?

57:58And then my Facebook messenger thing for him was almost like a trauma dump of all the stuff that had happened to him when we were growing up. I don't understand why he chose me, but he was just talking to anybody who would listen, maybe. And he was just writing, I'm sorry about this and that. And like, here's what's going on. yeah as you might imagine he had a terrible childhood meanwhile i thought he was spoiled because he had a go-kart and stuff like that he was like zipping around the neighborhood it was like no that's not how it worked out at all was a different way to look at things so yeah it was just not what i expected at all and of course that probably happens a lot when you're an adult

58:32Gabriel Mizrahi:i'm trying to make room for both of these ideas that maybe a boy doesn't end up super damaged by this stuff maybe it's just kind of part of childhood and if this kid in the story is not exhibiting huge signs of trauma. Maybe he's okay. Maybe he is resilient. But I also think that a lot of boys, including this guy who reached out to you years later, probably, are taught that they're not allowed to be sensitive. They're not allowed to speak up when they're hurt. That can do a number on you. That's true. I guess as a man, I'm maybe still catching up to that. I don't know. I am too. In fact, wow, this is such a weird memory.

59:04Gabriel Mizrahi:One of those kids I just mentioned, one day we were in theater class, we were in the auditorium. He took a metal leg from a chair. I guess the metal leg was like loose and he like broke it off of the chair. And for no reason, like out of nowhere, he just hit me with the chair leg incredibly hard in the leg. Okay. That's like Tanya Harding shit right there. Why would you do that to someone? Yeah. Tanya Harding me in mine class in seventh grade at Emanuel and so hard that I was almost stunned because, because I'd never been hit like that before. I was like, what a weird sensation. And it was pretty upsetting.

59:39Gabriel Mizrahi:And I was finally like, dude, he did a few times. I was like, that's enough. Like he had been messing with me for weeks before that. And so I went to tell someone, a teacher, I guess. And I walked across the school to find somebody to tell. This is so vivid and sad. And I'm sorry, I'm like bringing the house down with this, but I was trying not to cry while I walked. And I remember feeling like the most painful part was not the physical pain. It was the embarrassment. Yeah, the embarrassment about being attacked, you mean? At being emotional, because I was attacked. The physical pain was not that bad.

1:00:10Gabriel Mizrahi:It was just like, oh my God, I'm embarrassed that I'm even like worked up to this degree. Just to be holding back tears after some psycho kid who's like being yelled at or hit at home hit me because I was a boy and boys are not supposed to emote like that. Yeah, I hear that. This is funny. This is a trauma dump from you and I about how we went through some of this as a good - Perfect, let's do it. I remember we had this thing called latchkey, which was like daycare before and after school. And so there was a meeting. All the bullies were in that. And I was also in that. And there was a bunch of other kids there, too.

1:00:39So there was this circle of the teachers and aides going, all right, Mark and Jay are bullying all these kids. They used to rhyme things with my last name, which is actually quite challenging. So props to them for doing that successfully. And then they would also they had like rhymes and stuff, but they weren't that bad. They were just dumb and silly and it didn't bother me that much. But it did suck a little bit to know that somebody was like looking at you and making fun of you. And I remember the teachers would say things like, is it OK or is it teasing in a way that you don't like? And I felt immense pressure to be like, it's totally fine.

1:01:14It really was. But there was another kid, my friend Andy, he was getting bullied mercilessly. And of course, right after I was like, it's mostly fine. I didn't want to get them in trouble. I thought that would go hard on me. And also it didn't bother me that much. they're like Andy what about you and I was like now is your chance to get these kids some comeuppance and maybe they'll actually stop and he was like no it's totally fine and I was like no what are you doing he basically let it go because he was like I don't want to look uncool like they got to me you know it's just clearly what he was doing I felt so bad for him because I remember he would cry all the time and he would go and tell his mom and the mom would tell the teachers and it's like why are you asking him in front of everyone if they're under his skin like he's going to say, oh, yeah, they're terrorizing me and I'm afraid every moment of the day.

1:01:57Come on, dude. Now that we've talked about all this, I'm sitting here trying to figure out, do I just have thicker skin or am I completely in denial about how hurtful all of this actually was? I honestly don't know the answer. I know. I have a feeling there's a certain range of hurtful behavior that's survivable because kids can be super brutal. We all need to learn how to recover from it. Everyone gets mistreated to some degree. But I also know that I didn't have it as bad as other kids. And it's also got me really questioning, like, oh, it's kind of mean to Richard Rowe. I wonder if, does he remember that?

1:02:28Is he like, Jordan Harbinger terrorized me as a kid? And I'm just like, ah, I used to poke fun at that guy. Am I the bully? Is that the problem here? I would be heartbroken. I would be shattered if somebody told me that was me. That's why I didn't notice it, because I was the perpetrator, not the victim.

1:02:43Gabriel Mizrahi:This would be the huge turn. So I guess I can't necessarily assume that this bullying isn't having a real impact on her son, But I think it might be good for her to make room for the idea that he's more resilient than she might think. Also, at his age, I have a feeling that his resilience might depend in part on her confidence in him to get through this. If she believes he's resilient, he'll be resilient. Kind of. Another way to put it is if she overly worries about him and constantly attends to his injuries, especially if they're not as severe as she thinks, that might accidentally communicate to him that there is something wrong or it might make things worse.

1:03:18Gabriel Mizrahi:So it's an interesting balance there. It is. But also you don't want to ignore them. And then you're just like ignoring your kids' emotional needs. A lot of dads did that growing up. A lot of dads would be like, oh, yeah, my son was getting bullied so bad. But it's like they just ignore it because they're like, uh, then I don't want to highlight that this is terrible. And it's, I don't know, your son got pushed down a flight of stairs. He had to go to the hospital. These stories are getting worse and worse Oh, we had, dude, we had serious You know what, maybe the reason I'm not remembering all this bad stuff Happening to me is that the kids who got bullied It was like criminal behavior Oh man Yeah We didn't have that in my school I think you might have gone to a different school You think?

1:03:59Gabriel Mizrahi:Or maybe it was like 80s Yeah, there was a rich kid who beat up a kid That didn't have any money and had a single mom He beat his ass so bad he had to go to the hospital and it was not his first time doing that and this was like a wealthy kid and it was just like he beat up like one kid who had a single mom and the dad died it was just horrific like what you got i can't handle anymore no my school was clearly my school was a war zone and i just didn't realize that at all i don't know man derby middle school dang bring a flak jacket All right. Anyway, so yes, I'm sure this bullying is having some impact on your son's development.

1:04:40I don't see how it couldn't. But what kind of impact, how much of an impact, how he experiences it, how he carries that forward in his life? Yeah, those are all kind of open questions, I think. Gabe, the picture I'm getting of her son is that he's a really interesting mix of qualities. He's obviously extremely bright. He's also sensitive and empathetic. He's calmed down and become more respectful. but he's also a little bit of a rebel in kind of a cool way. He doesn't exactly play by the rules. He's not afraid to stick it to people when they deserve it, like with the spelling thing, which I still think is funny.

1:05:12So there's a world where that mix of qualities creates a certain toughness that's going to serve her son very well in life. I'm not saying the bullying won't hurt at all, but his way of coping with it, hitting back in the appropriate ways, I do think that's going to play a big role in just how much these experiences affect him, but he will experience some pain. That is just unavoidable. And so as difficult as it is, you do have to make peace with the fact that your awesome kid, partly because of his awesomeness, he's gonna be impacted sometimes. And you gotta trust that he's gonna work through that with you, with other people, in his own way, over the course of his life.

1:05:45But yeah, of course you can help your son navigate all this. The most important thing, I think, is to be a consistent, loving, nonjudgmental presence in his life, which you're already doing, and ask him, again, not constantly, because that can create its own neurosis, but regularly ask him how he's doing, how his day was, what's on his mind, listen to what he says, validate him, ask him good questions, listen more, help him find his way to new feelings, new answers. Basically be with him in whatever experience he's having. If he wants you to be in it with him, of course. And if he doesn't, you can back off, give him some space to our point a moment ago.

1:06:22I think that's crucial too.

1:06:24Gabriel Mizrahi:Yeah, I totally agree. Obviously it's really powerful when a parent is super attuned to their child, but there's also a kind of parent who can be so involved with their children, so concerned with taking care of them that it can easily tip over into something kind of smothering and invasive. And I think that can deprive a child of healthy solitude, of space to work things out on their own and learn to bear their feelings on their own and discover that they can be okay without constant intervention. And that can end up undermining that resilience that we were just talking about because that resilience requires a sense of self.

1:06:58Gabriel Mizrahi:That self develops in part through relationship with good parents and in part through independence. So again, a balance. Yes, 100%. There's a balance there. I'm also just thinking about the fact that your son is a target in large part, again, because he's different. You can't change that. You don't want to change that. But one day, I think it's going to be very soon, all these gifts are really going to start to pay off. He's going to enter mathlete competitions or start building robots or writing poetry or whatever. he's going to be on such an exciting path. His intelligence, his sense of humor, his eccentricities, they're making him weird now.

1:07:31But weird is the precursor to awesome. That's just how it works. So two thoughts here. One is the sooner you cultivate those qualities and make them assets, the better. Get him into gifted programs, clubs, summer camps, hobbies, places that will put him in touch with other kids like him and that are going to nurture his talents. You don't have to wait till he's in high school to start taking all that seriously. The other thing is the sooner he understands these unique gifts, the less the bullying will hurt. And that's my hope, because at least then he'll be like, oh yeah, I'm really good at this stuff, and they aren't, and that makes them angry, or I don't really click with these kids at school, but I have my friends at Robotics Club, they get me.

1:08:07That's just part of the resilience as well. I'm sorry your son is going through all this, but he's very lucky to have you looking out for him. You're obviously doing a lot right here, given how much he's grown in just a few years. It's awesome to hear. Keep up the good work sending you and your son a big hug. Also, in case y 'all don't know, there's a subreddit for the show if you want to discuss episodes or things that you hear on the show. It's over on Reddit on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. You deserve to be locked in a shed if you don't take advantage of the amazing deals and discounts on the products and services that support this show.

1:08:39We'll be right back.

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1:09:21If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do whatever smart and considerate listeners do. That is take a moment, support the amazing sponsors. All of the deals and discounts are on the website at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. If a code's not working, you can't find the code, you're not sure if it exists, email us, jordan at jordanharbinger.com. We're happy to dig up codes for you. It's that important that you support those who support the show. And now for the rest of Feedback Friday. all right time for the recommendation of the week i am addicted to lip filler so almost two years ago

1:09:56Gabriel Mizrahi:now i went to burning man for the first time for the only time really and one of the things that i bought for the trip was this camping towel you know one of those ultra light towels that absorb a ton of water and then you can leave them hanging outside and they'll dry in 20 or 30 minutes so i did a bunch of research and i found this brand called ecosophy that i love these towels are amazing. They have a bunch of awesome patterns. I bought the one called Madagascar. I also love the Acapulco, the Marrakesh. They're all really pretty. They're all super cool. I also love that they're incredibly thin.

1:10:26Gabriel Mizrahi:Like they hardly take up any room in your bag. You can throw them in your trunk. You can take them on the go. You can use them as a towel. You can use them as a blanket. You can just use them as something to sit on when you're outside. And they also have a line of beach towels, eco-friendly towels, kid towels, beach blankets. It's a really great product line. And this towel that I love is only like$35. Very reasonable. I bought this thing thinking, oh yeah, I'll just use it at Burning Man for 10 days and then whatever, I'll give it away. It's become a staple for me. I've been using it every single day here in Brazil.

1:10:56Gabriel Mizrahi:It's amazing for traveling. It's totally saved my life. Huge fan of this product. Ecosophy Beach Towels. We'll link to them in the show notes. All right, next up. Dear Bert and Ernie. Ooh, getting out of hand. Jen's gonna start getting pissed your wife or the closeted one from oh man she was you're just treading on thin ice to mix metaphors all right continue i'm 30 years old female and overall healthy i exercise eat mostly a plant-based diet and work in a career that i love as a freelance artist i'm happily married to a loving and supportive husband and have a beautiful little home. All of my basic needs are met, and for that, I am very lucky.

1:11:40Gabriel Mizrahi:Amazing. What a gift. Despite all of this, ever since I can remember, I've struggled with my mental well-being. I can become very easily stressed out over trivial things. I can be snappy and irritable in the moment to those who may not deserve it. And I often find myself sitting in resentment and anger. A lot of this is around the fact that I help care for a very grumpy grandparent, and dealing with a mother who doesn't often respect boundaries. By my own admission, I am not great at drawing or enforcing these boundaries. Interesting. I'm sorry to hear all of this, but it sounds very understandable.

1:12:14These are major stressors.

1:12:16Gabriel Mizrahi:I also struggle with feelings of despair and anxiety about losing people I love. I'll often imagine something horrible happening to my husband or sister and then worry about how I could ever deal with the outcome or if I could live on. I've also held off on having children because I'm so overcome with fear of something bad happening to them. Also very understandable and super common. It's interesting, Jen brings this up a lot. Like when we travel, she'll talk about us going on different planes in case something happens. Or she'll talk about what it would be like if I died and how hard it would be.

1:12:49And I think we all have probably some serious anxiety about death. But yeah, some more than others.

1:12:54Gabriel Mizrahi:I'm not sure where these feelings come from, but it's probably related to the fact that in high school, my boyfriend attempted suicide. Thankfully, he survived, but it was a very close call. I am no longer with this person, but I still remember the emotional rollercoaster. I'm not sure if that's what caused this fear of death, but it could have something to do with it. Very intense. Wow, I'm sorry. I've been talking with a therapist regularly for a little over six months now. She diagnosed me with mild to moderate anxiety and depression. She has suggested pursuing medications in order to feel a little lighter and to quiet my mind.

1:13:30Gabriel Mizrahi:But I have many hesitations about pursuing medication. For one thing, I struggle with body image issues and cannot afford the weight gain that often comes with these medications. Gaining weight would not be good for my mental well-being. For another, many of these medications can lower your libido. I already struggle with the lower libido, which can sometimes cause tension in my marriage. We've been working on this together and have been making progress, and I would hate for a medication to negatively affect that. I'm also a full-time artist and painter, and I worry about these medications numbing me or hindering my creativity.

1:14:05Gabriel Mizrahi:And I've read about possible cognitive decline associated with long-term use of SSRIs. Oh, I've never heard of that. Have you, Gabe? I had not. I looked into it briefly, and I'm far from an expert, but basically it seems like the evidence for that is mixed and not conclusive. Yeah, so it could totally not even be a thing. could not be a thing, could be a thing for some people, maybe, I truly don't know, but I had never heard of it and there's no consensus online about this. So she goes on, lastly, I find myself wondering if I really do have anxiety or depression or if I'm just not doing enough for myself in order to feel my best.

1:14:42Gabriel Mizrahi:I do exercise and eat well, but there's probably more that I could push myself to do that would help. For example, meditation, drinking less alcohol, I drink socially on the weekends, CBT therapy, less screen time, and so on. What are your thoughts on medication for anxiety and depression? Do you think doctors can be too quick to prescribe these medications before exploring other options? Signed, writing you a letter to see if you guys are objectors to solving all this through receptors. Really good questions. Gabe, I'm a little sweaty answering this one. I am too, but I thought it was a really interesting question that like so many people wonder about, so I kind of wanted to get into it.

1:15:22Yeah, we're just not in a position to tell someone whether they should take medication or not. That is very personal. And it's medical advice, something only a mental health professional can really weigh in on with their patient.

1:15:34Gabriel Mizrahi:Of course, I agree. Maybe we can just, like, talk about a few different angles on her story and let her decide for herself. Yeah, that sounds good to me. First of all, I'm very sorry that you've struggled with anxiety, depression, anger, the fear of losing people. It's held you back from certain experiences you might want, like having kids. This is extremely intense stuff and so universal. It is not crazy to struggle with any of it, especially in today's world. Honestly, I don't know a single person, not one, who doesn't experience anxiety or depression or anger to some degree at some point in their life.

1:16:09These moods, these responses, they're part of being human. And we all need to find our own relationship with them. But okay, before we get into that, My very broad thought about medication for anxiety and depression is medication is a remarkable tool. It's imperfect, clearly, but it's powerful. And obviously, they're game changers for a lot of people. And if somebody needs help, I think it's brilliant that we have these tools. I'm generally very proud of people for being open to taking it when they need it, especially if they have a severe mood disorder or a psychiatric condition that seriously impairs their life.

1:16:43So, like, no philosophical objections to medication per se on my end. However, I don't think it's controversial to say that doctors, especially in America, probably in the West very generally, they obviously prescribe this stuff very easily. Some might say way too easily and definitely without exploring other options. Although I think that's changing with new treatments. There's TMS, ketamine, stuff like that, which is really exciting. But like, is your psychiatrist really going to spend three hours talking to you about your family, your job, what your outlook on the world is?

1:17:15Gabriel Mizrahi:Right. Is your PZB going to be like, so tell me about your childhood? and before they write you a script for Zoloft? Yeah, probably not. I just haven't heard of any prescriber who says, exercise for 30 minutes four times a week, leave your toxic job, get off your damn phone, make plans with friends every Sunday, come back in 90 days and we'll see if you still need medication. They're not trained to. It's not their job to do that. They're too overwhelmed with patients to do that. So they see you for a few minutes, they ask you a few questions, mostly related to symptoms, and they just, they write you a script and that's it.

1:17:45And don't get me wrong, There are great psychiatrists out there. Of course, I believe many take a real interest in their patients. But generally speaking, in the system we have here, even the good ones, they're usually not treating you as a whole. They're treating symptoms, and that means they're mostly writing scripts. And yeah, it's usually pretty quick.

1:18:04Gabriel Mizrahi:Yeah, and these medications, as powerful as they are, at the end of the day, they're just a tool. As far as I understand, all the research shows that the true efficacy of medication depends on the combination of medication and talk therapy. So to just take the meds, yeah, it can be very helpful to a degree, and it is for so many people, but they're not a silver bullet. It's more like, what do they make possible? How do you build on that? Exactly. So let's talk about you. It sounds to me like you're doing a lot right. Not only do you have this very full and beautiful life. You're grateful for that life.

1:18:37And that's amazing. That alone is a huge advantage in terms of mood. It also sounds like there are a few things you could be doing to take even better care of yourself. Meditation, drinking less, therapy, less screen time, all of which can have, usually do have a major impact on everything, right? Everything. So my feeling is, I say this humbly, I'm really not giving you any kind of medical advice. My feeling is why not do those things first and then see how you feel, not because medication is bad or wrong, but because it is a big step and it's one tool out of many. And like you said, it can come with side effects and these meds can be hard to get off of.

1:19:14And you might or might not find the results you're hoping for in the first place. So before I took that step, I just want to make sure that I really needed that stuff.

1:19:21Gabriel Mizrahi:Last week, we got a question from a guy who was asking about whether it makes sense to be in therapy long term. And I said this thing about whether therapy, mental health care in general, actually, whether it's about symptom reduction or whether it's about something else, or it could be about more than that, I should say. And I think that idea might also be useful here, because what I'm hearing from this letter is that she is mildly to moderately depressed and anxious. She gets very easily stressed. That makes her irritable, makes her short-tempered. She carries some anger around, and there are a few very clear sources of this anger and stress.

1:19:54Gabriel Mizrahi:She has a grumpy grandparent she has to take care of. She has this challenging mom with whom she struggles to draw boundaries. And then there's this despair and anxiety about losing people. How would I survive that? How would I continue? Which is not just a question of mood or attitude. That is an existential question, and it's also one that's probably informed by your entire life history. How can you be alive on this earth and not struggle with that question? We're talking about such big stuff. We're talking about love and loss and grief and just how insane it is to be a human being who is going to experience in this life great joy and great sorrow.

1:20:31Gabriel Mizrahi:So I'm going to repeat what Jordan just said just to be very clear and respectful of your process, my friend. I'm not a psychiatrist. I'm not a doctor. I'm no expert. I'm definitely not here to tell you what to do. I'm just a fellow person who's also wondered at various points whether medication was for me. I've told you guys, I think, a little bit over the years about periods of depression I've been through, which were really hard. And I would just really take some time if you can manage it and talk about these themes, ideally with a therapist, yes, but also with people you're close with. I would read about these topics and learn from experts who write about this stuff, and I can send you some recs if you want.

1:21:06By the way, just email me and maybe start to think of

1:21:09Gabriel Mizrahi:these experiences like depression and fear and anxiety and anger, not necessarily as symptoms to make go away, but as information about you and areas of your life that might be calling out for a little bit more attention from you. We could literally talk for hours about this. We only have a few minutes here, but for example, your anger, you could call it a quote unquote problem, right? A problem that you need to quote unquote get under control. But I think a more helpful way to think about it might be that it is a signal you need to find a new way, for example, with your mom and your grandmother or yourself, or this anxiety about losing people.

1:21:48Gabriel Mizrahi:You could view that as a problem that you need to medicate, or you could treat it like an invitation to dive into this grief you feel, this fear, why you feel it so far in advance and how you're living with that fear and just what the whole idea of mortality and frankly, the precarity of life, which is a fact, what all of that brings up for you. Again, I don't mean to belabor the point, but we're all grappling with these big existential questions. They are very intense and the way you live them, not just live with them, but live them is going to determine whether you're anxious or surrendered, whether you're gripped by fear or you use that fear to stay connected to gratitude.

1:22:26Gabriel Mizrahi:I'm just naming a few of these big experiences that are possible. So look, if you were writing into us and you were saying, I can't get out of bed in the morning, or I literally cannot leave my house and drive on the freeway because I'm so anxious, that would be a different story. If this were like radically impairing your life and it wasn't even possible to talk about some of this stuff with a therapist because you couldn't even get to their office or you couldn't go to the library to get a book or something like that, then that's a completely different situation. And that's when medication can be extremely helpful and for many other situations.

1:22:58Gabriel Mizrahi:So I'm talking to you like this in part because of how you're doing these days, you're saying mild to moderate and you're still high functioning. But even still, my invitation to you would be, how curious can you get about yourself and about this life? Do you want to just like quiet your mind or do you want to understand your mind? And do you want to find a way to not think about death ever? Or do you want to step into a friendlier relationship with death and see if maybe it enriches your life and leads to new possibilities? Obviously, I feel that that's the more fruitful journey, but everybody is different.

1:23:32Gabriel Mizrahi:But still, I do think it's worth trying. But that's compatible with medication, right? It's not either or. Absolutely compatible. And if meds make it possible for her to do this, great. But this isn't just, you know, like a nice intellectual exercise before you go to the psychiatrist. I really believe I have found in my life that this deeper work does really help with symptoms. It's very possible that you will get better, but you might have to broaden your definition of getting better, at least be open to new possibilities because so much of this is about your relationship with these feelings, your process around these feelings, and not just what are my solutions and And how do I get to these end states that feel better?

1:24:13Yeah, well said, Gabe. I also think we all have a responsibility to ourselves to maintain a few basic practices. One of them is exercise. When I fall off my exercise routine, it is not pretty. Another one, of course, is sleeping. If you're not sleeping well, life can only be so good. Another one for me is learning and talking. If you're keeping it all inside and nothing can get worked through, you're gonna start to feel stuck. Another one, of course, again, for me, not drinking too much. We've talked about this before. it's a very personal choice too. For some people, it's totally fine. For others, not so much.

1:24:44But alcohol and mood and sleep for that matter and exercise for that matter, it's just not a good combination. And all of those things are mostly free. And some might even save you money if you stop buying booze. And a lot of it's fun, right? Working on exercise and sleep and stuff. And all of these are very much a part of this life. So I definitely want to do them before trying anything from the outside. I just realized we didn't even get to the side effect stuff. All I can say about that is everybody who takes medication worries about them. It sucks that side effects exist. Again, only you can decide if the trade-offs are worth it.

1:25:14Just keep in mind, side effects aren't guaranteed. Everyone experiences this stuff differently, and different SSRIs have different side effects. Unfortunately, there's no way to know until you try. You're just running experiments on your own body, but you might not need to really think about this yet. I'd cross that bridge once you get there. And just to say, again, because I really take our responsibility on this show seriously, and I never, ever want to overstep our role. If things get extremely difficult and you need more support, please feel free to look into medication. I hope we've made it abundantly clear we are not anti, nor are we automatically pro, but most importantly, we are not medical experts.

1:25:49There are so many ways to take care of yourself in this world. Every one of us needs something different, so just keep coming back to what's right for you, but while you do that, make sure you're putting in the work on yourself in any event. I appreciate that you're being very intentional and thoughtful about this. I know that's going to lead you to the right places. Good luck and take good care of yourself. Don't forget about our episode with Dr. Guillaume Delude on living with tribes and our skeptical Sunday last Sunday on homelessness, if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust.

1:26:21Six-minute networking, the course is free. It's not schmoozy. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. It just takes a few minutes a day. Get after it. Dig that well before you get thirsty. Build relationships before you need them. You can And find all that at sixminutenetworking.com. Show notes and transcripts on the website, advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. I'm at jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Instagram, Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One.

1:26:50My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tata Sidlowskis, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. And I'm a lawyer, but not your lawyer. consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. One day, the encryption protecting your bank account, medical records, and private messages will simply stop working.

1:27:25Not because of a hack, but because computers get smart enough to break it instantly. The scary part? That day is already being planned for and your data may already be saved for later.

1:27:34Gabriel Mizrahi:Quantum computers actually are a real step in evolution in the way that everybody knows about a binary state, zeros and ones, on and off. Well, that was and is the technology for the classic computers today. We've improved technologically much faster than we have been able to, as a society, come up with ways to prevent the harm. Quantum computers can lead to what's called Q Day, or I prefer to call it Digital Disaster Day, D-Day 2, because that's the day when all the digital secrets that the normal computers can't crack through encryption are going to be cracked by quantum computers. And that is really what gets people's attention.

1:28:18Gabriel Mizrahi:Combine that with AI and boy, we've really got a one-two punch that can make humanity take these giant technological leaps that we had no idea could possibly happen. And that's one of the big fears is AI that a lot of people are worried about. Now quantum's coming around the corner. It makes it even twice as scary. It's a huge mixed bag of possibilities for everybody that are great and also danger, you know, terminator level existential problems. All the doomsday preppers actually are onto something. If this does happen in the next few years, we're really going to be in big trouble. That's why I'm sort of an evangelist out there trying to speak on it and let people know this is a major problem.

1:29:00We can't just stick our head in the sand. To hear from quantum expert John Young on what Q-Day is, why it matters now, and what happens when our digital security hits its expiration date, check out episode 1261 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.

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