1324: Has "Vanilla" Guy Always Been Kinky on the Sly? | Feedback Friday

19:01And he was pin trading. And I was like, oh, let's go trade pins with this older guy. It'll be so nice. And I brought my my son and two of The girl, my friend's kids were there with us and he was like, no, this pins more value. Like this girl's like, I'll trade you this one for this. And he's like, no, no, no. This isn't a class above. I'm not going to trade you this. And he was like hard balling these little kids during pin trading. And I was like, oh, he's not like, oh, sure. Whatever makes you happy. He was like, no, this is good. Pin your sucks.

19:27Gabriel Mizrahi:This is the greatest TV show I've seen in a long time. This is too funny. Yeah. I'm going to wrap this in a sec. But there's this gifting culture where people it's called pixie dust where like you can leave a bag or people make magnet hooks and stuff and they stick them to their cruise door. Jen made a bunch of necklaces to give away. And it's like, take a necklace. And people would leave little rubber ducks or little necklace jewelry things, key chains, stickers in the little mailbag. And the kids were stoked because they'd wake up every morning and there'd be like new little toys in their mailbox.

19:57And it was just a really fun thing. And we would go in the elevator and this little girl had a sword, but she was a princess. And I said, oh, a princess with a sword. And she goes, actually, does your son want this? I don't need it. I'm a princess. And she just gave him this really cool sword. And the whole cruise was like that. It was just a lot of sharing and fun and older kids being really nice to younger kids. I just thought it was such a good environment for that. And that's cute. I did see a show fan or I should say a show fan spotted me on the boat. Oh, that's awesome. Who wasn't? A couple of them, actually.

20:26I only got the name of one. shout out to Carlos who spotted me on the boat. We were just walking in a crowd of, I don't know, 200 people to get to something. I don't remember now. He's like, Jordan Harbinger. And I was like, oh yeah, hey man. And we talked for a second. He's like, I'll let you get back to it. Cause the crowd is pushing us, you know, in different directions. Basically. It was just a funny place to get spotted. Cause of course I'm like a mess, right? Food poisoning, unshaven with kids probably have different bits of drool and boogers stuck to me somewhere. And I was like, oh, hey bro, thanks for listening to the show.

20:55Uh, actually totally on brand. Now that I think about it,

20:57Gabriel Mizrahi:I was going to say, it sounds like you always run into fans when you're either on your way to the bathroom or coming back from the bathroom. It's a weird time. That's true. And I was both of those things for the majority of the cruise. That sounds like it started off real rocky, but actually turned around in the best way. That's actually very sweet. It sounds like a pretty solid vacation. Yeah. It's just as important to find out what kind of vacations you don't enjoy as it is to find out the kind of vacations that you do. So it wasn't a waste at all. And the kids said they had fun, even though the majority of that was coloring in the room and going down a water slide.

21:26So whatever. All right, Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag?

21:30Gabriel Mizrahi:Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm in a long-term marriage. We've been together for 17 years, married for 13 this coming fall, and have three young kids. And I feel like my understanding of my husband and my relationship has been unraveling piece by piece over the last year. For our entire relationship, he presented himself as very vanilla. You don't say. I completely forgot about that. Did not see the vanilla coming. You did not see that coming. Did not see the vanilla coming. If I ever asked about his sexual preferences or kinks, his answer was always some version of, I'm just vanilla, babe. And he told me he only had eyes for me.

22:08Gabriel Mizrahi:He also consistently downplayed his porn use, saying it was minimal or basically non-existent, and only came up occasionally. Ooh, here we go. Something tells me this dude is about as vanilla as Rocky Road, as that ice cream that that other guy probably avoids like the plate. Are you getting that vibe? I am. This guy is one of those 80 % cacao vanillas. You only find those in Belgium. I'm just vanilla, babe. You know, the kind of vanilla that keeps you up with heart palpitations till four in the morning, but that kind of vanilla. Yeah, I can't wait to hear what this guy's Pornhub search history was.

22:41Gabriel Mizrahi:Let's go. I've never had an issue with porn use. I even worked at a porn store while putting myself through grad school, but that's changed over the past year. After his mom passed away, I started uncovering things that made me question his honesty in our entire relationship. Since then, I've repeatedly discovered ongoing porn use, specific kinks and interests he never disclosed, and behaviors that directly contradict what he's told me about himself. This has included using porn frequently in situations that feel especially inappropriate to me, like at work. And even while he was solely responsible for caring for our infant, which has made this feel less like a private habit and more like something that's crossing serious boundaries.

23:21Gabriel Mizrahi:Some of what I found has also crossed into spaces in our home and family life in ways that feel deeply inappropriate and unsettling to me. Wait, what does that mean exactly? Like literal spaces or figurative ones? Either she means he's rubbing one out on the couch in the living room or something like that while the baby's sleeping in the other room, or she means he's like trying to bring it into their relationship in some way. Now that I'm thinking about it, it's probably the former one, but I hear her he's not discreetly partaking in the bathroom before bed or something he's he's being way too loosey-goosey about it bold words coming from the guy who partook in the bathroom while his what was it his in-laws heard the video on the bluetooth speaker in the living room no you're thinking of me being in the car in a parking lot at kaiser permanente no no you're oh the video that my friend sent me so long oh my god that was so long ago friend that was yeah i will never live this down why did you bring that up because you know it's our love language papa and i love you Okay.

24:15All right. And I just have to remind everybody that you did that straight out of a Judd Apatow movie that moment. I go to take a leak. My friend tells me to watch some dumb adult video. This is years ago. Okay. I forget my phone's connected to Bluetooth. I have to walk back in because I can't hear it. So I crank the volume, right? I walk back in wondering if they know what they heard and figured it out.

24:32Gabriel Mizrahi:Oh, it's so ridiculous. I could not write a better scene myself. One of my favorite stories of yours. Glad you enjoyed it. Let's get back to her nightmare, shall we? Let's do that. Most of what I found directly conflicts with what he said he's attracted to, which makes me question whether I was ever given an honest picture of his sexual identity at all. I can see why that's the hardest part. Yeah, that and the cleaning bill for the upholstery, but I hear... That and the$800 prepaid cleaning warranty from Lazy Boy. Swing! There have also been moments that make the contradictions even harder for me to process.

25:04Gabriel Mizrahi:At one point, after listening to an episode of the Jordan Harbinger show about Ozempic, he encouraged me to listen to it too because he wanted me to consider taking it, due to his concerns about my weight and lifespan, even though I'm relatively healthy and have always been a plus-sized woman. At the time, I tried to take that at face value, and even attributed it to his grief after his mom passed. But in the context of everything I've since discovered, including the types of women he's consistently looking up, consuming, and drawn to, it feels deeply hurtful, confusing, and contradictory, and makes me question what is actually true about his attraction and intentions.

25:42Wow, yeah, that's a tough message to take in. So I'm assuming he's looking at like super thin women or something, and then he's going to his wife, like, hey, have you heard of GLP-1, those MPICs? Super interesting. Jordan Harbinger told me all about it. Don't put this on me, pal. But yeah, that's tricky to put it mildly.

25:58Gabriel Mizrahi:I've tried to make sense of this. And part of me wonders if this is tied to shame around his actual preferences, that what he presents and what he's drawn to privately don't match. And I've been given the more socially acceptable version. Shame or fear. Yeah. Socially acceptable, maybe. I mean, you haven't told us specifically what he's into, but maybe this is more about what he thinks you would find acceptable. Gabe, I'm not getting the idea that he's watching dudes or anything. I feel like it would be more clear cut that he's, oh my God, my husband's gay, right? Correct. Okay. Yeah. So I'm just guessing it's, I don't know, women that are built differently.

26:32Gabriel Mizrahi:But even if that's true, it still leaves me dealing with the dishonesty and confusion that come from not being told the truth for 17 years. What's been most damaging isn't just what I found, it's the pattern around it. Every time I discover something and try to talk with him over this past year, I've met with defensiveness, denial, I don't remember, or a minimized version of the truth. When he does admit to something, it's usually only after I have evidence, and I'm told that's everything or there's nothing else, then later I find more. Oh, yeah. So this dishonesty, the withholding and the obfuscation, whatever you want to call it, that's sort of a problem on top of the problem and might actually be the real problem.

27:11Gabriel Mizrahi:This has happened enough times that it feels like I'm being drip-fed the truth over time instead of given honesty from the start. Yep. Ye olde trickle-truthing. Trickle-truthing. I've never heard that one. Interesting. Yeah. I've tried addressing this in multiple ways, calmly, directly, and emotionally. But the pattern doesn't change. Yeah, if that's true, assuming you've made it genuinely safe for him to be open with you, then at a certain point, this does become about him. When I try to talk about it, the focus shifts to how I'm bringing it up. My tone, my reaction, my phrasing, instead of the fact that I keep uncovering things I was never told.

27:45So either she's not making it totally safe to open up, which is possible given how sensitive this topic is, or... Or he's kind of like throwing up smoke screens and pointing the finger at her. Yeah, exactly. I truly cannot tell. I would love to talk to this guy.

27:58Gabriel Mizrahi:I leave these conversations feeling more hurt, confused, and dismissed, and like I need a full case file of evidence just to be taken seriously. At the same time, sex feels like a priority for him in a way that doesn't match the emotional reality of our relationship. What an interesting way to say, I don't want to have sex with you right now, man. Yeah, I was just kind of thinking the same thing. What a way to turn someone down. hey, girl, you want to get it in? Oh, that does not match the emotional reality of our relationship right now. I mean, I get what she means, but yeah. I don't feel safe, respected, or fully appreciated.

28:29Gabriel Mizrahi:Yet there's still an expectation for physical intimacy, even though no real relationship repair has happened for the level of betrayal that I feel. Yeah, in all seriousness, I totally understand what you're saying. And that's got to be a strange feeling, being intimate with a spouse when there's all this unresolved stuff between you that you're not making real progress on. On the other hand, he clearly still wants to have sex with her. That's interesting. That matters too. But she feels betrayed by this, but he's just like, I enjoy this stuff privately. This is mine. Yeah, it's an interesting question.

29:00What exactly hurts about this and who's creating that hurt?

29:03Gabriel Mizrahi:Knowing what I know now and how long it's been hidden makes me feel like I don't even know who I married. She said that three or four times now, so this is a really big thing. Yeah. I'm struggling to understand where the line is between private behavior and deception that undermines a marriage. Again, such an interesting question. Are married people allowed privacy in this department, or does that privacy only end up chipping away at intimacy? At what point does repeatedly hiding parts of your sexual life, including porn use and undisclosed kinks, cross from privacy into a breach of trust in a monogamous marriage?

29:38Gabriel Mizrahi:Can trust realistically be rebuilt when the truth only comes out in bits and pieces, and only after being discovered? After being busted, yeah. And how do I move forward in a long-term marriage with young children when I feel like I was never given a fully honest picture of who my husband is and I still don't know if I have it now? Signed, all up in my feelings, now that I know what and where my husband is streaming. Wow, big questions, good questions. This is intense, man. So I'm obviously very sorry that you find yourself in this situation. I can hear how much it hurts. I can totally understand why this is unsettling.

30:11to feel like the person you've been with for 17 years. Is that what it was?

30:14Gabriel Mizrahi:Yeah, together for 17, but married for 13. To feel like they're actually this whole other person or maybe to be more accurate and more fair to him, that there's this whole side to him and what he likes that you didn't know about. And that side is different from yours, different from what you offer him in some ways. Unsettling and hurtful for sure, probably not intentionally, but painful for you. But then when you layer on top of it, the issues of body image, potential porn addiction, dishonesty or incomplete honesty, rocky communication, questionable boundaries, I think I can understand why it's doing such a number on you, and I'm sorry about that.

30:49That said, I want to make a little room for how tricky this might be for your husband, just in the interest of total fairness here, to state the obvious, and this can be an uncomfortable fact to confront, and I think it's important to say, he's allowed to be into whatever he's into, as long as he's not harming himself or anyone else, of course, and for a lot of people, consuming porn is like kind of their way of enjoying those things. And yeah, the topic of porn is complicated, but generally speaking, I kind of think people are allowed to consume whatever they want. Again, as long as they're not engaging in any harm and there's a philosophical argument as to whether people who make that are being harmed always by you consuming it, but I'm not addressing that right now.

31:24The other thing I want to acknowledge is, yes, it's possible that your husband is dealing with some shame about his preferences. And if so, I actually feel for him there to a certain extent as well. Shame is generally very hard to work through, especially in this department. It's also his shame to deal with. I also think, like I said, that he sees how sensitive this is for you and he probably doesn't want to hurt you. So maybe shame is only half the equation. At the same time, man, Gabriel, I don't know, he still wants to have sex with her and he's watching porn to like scratch an itch or curiosity about something else.

31:57And it's it doesn't mean like, oh, I don't love my wife anymore because I'm watching, I don't know, 20-something-year-old thinner women have sex. It's not, think about it like this. Maybe the reason that this bothers her so much, and we don't have information here, but let's assume he's just watching younger, thinner women have sex or something like that on screen. That's a bad example of what I'm about to say because it maybe hits on insecurities. But like, imagine he's watching, I don't know, tentacle porn. You'd probably go, well, that's kind of silly. Do you want to have sex with an octopus?

32:26And the answer is no. And it's just like, oh, that's a weird thing you're watching. yeah, I was just kind of curious what it looked like. And it's almost like a joke. But the fact that he's watching something that's specifically, it's hitting certain switches in her that is making it way worse. I don't know. If you were watching cartoon porn, it would be like, he watches cartoon porn, what a weirdo. Not, oh my God, what does this mean about me?

32:46Gabriel Mizrahi:But the fact is that it is closer to them and their marriage. So it does, yeah. Which switches does it hit in her is exactly the question. I think that's a very good point. It's possible that at least some of his dishonesty can be attributed to his desire to protect you or spare you from being hurt. I don't think he's going about that in a great way. Certainly not the best way, but if he's a decent person and he loves you, which I hope he is, I hope he does. Then some of this might be coming from a quote-unquote good place in him? I think there's a decent chance that if we could ask him, he'd be like, I'm into this kind of stuff.

33:19My wife is different in certain ways. I care about her. I don't want to hurt her. I see how hard this is for her. So I just keep it to myself. And honestly, I think I'm allowed to keep it to myself. Call me crazy. I just I don't think that makes him a monster.

33:32Gabriel Mizrahi:It's a very fair point. And I appreciate that you're making some room for him in all of this. But all of that is having some apparently painful effects. And it is putting some distance between them. And I'm just trying to figure out exactly why. So let's talk about that. One layer of this that does seem problematic to me is the way he's engaging with the porn. A lot of what she described, it does sound compulsive. almost like he isn't in total control of it or at least he's not being very thoughtful about it, which is unfortunately very common. Porn addiction is a weird term, but like porn addiction is so widespread, it's kind of insane.

34:02So even if we allow that he can watch this stuff privately and it's all fair, it's also true that he needs to be mature and respectful and disciplined and appropriately boundaried in all those things, especially with a kid in the house.

34:14Gabriel Mizrahi:I know you were kind of like, is porn addiction a real thing? But I also feel like the moment you're using porn frequently at work, which we don't know if he works from home but even if you do but we don't know i mean people do this in the office at the bathroom at the office or if he's just i don't know or like while rocking the baby to sleep i think you might have a problem like hey man i know you're in the middle of something but i really can i get that latte i'm kind of in a hurry yeah i'll get to your pistachio latte after i'm done with the tentacle porn just give me five minutes yeah exactly hold on i just have to adjust something yeah hard agree oh unfortunate turn of phrase there Chubby agree.

34:49Gabriel Mizrahi:I understand. I got you. Tuck that agree in the waistband, precisely. So even if the porn use weren't bringing up these challenges for you, I'd still say this is something your husband needs to address. This is not coming from a moral finger waggy kind of place. I trust that's obvious. I hope it is. This is coming from a it sounds like you have a potentially unhealthy relationship with this stuff, bro. And if you can't get through a workday or hang with the baby without rubbing one out to alien porn, then you might be flirting with something like an addiction. and it's possible that this stuff has hijacked your mind and you need some help or at least to go on a little detox.

35:23That's the place I'm coming from. And it's okay to need help. I don't think it's controversial to say that pornography has the potential to be quite harmful. We've done several episodes about this over the years, but it's not okay to not address this stuff and start using it responsibly when it starts to take over your life in this way.

35:39Gabriel Mizrahi:I agree. So let's talk about this honesty, intimacy, tension in general. Let's. I truly do not know where to land on that. Yeah, like you, I'm kind of of two minds there. On one hand, I think every person deserves a certain degree of privacy in this domain and in other domains as well in order to be safe, to be free, to be an individual, you know? I agree with that in principle, yeah. And in fact, being truly close with another person might require that privacy. You know, that's kind of like the essential separateness that allows for togetherness, whereas a total loss of privacy or separateness might actually start to become, I don't know, or has the potential to become something like enmeshment or control or something like that.

36:15Good point. Kind of like how boundaries are what allow for true closeness. We've talked about that.

36:20Gabriel Mizrahi:On the other hand, we cannot deny that his hiding stuff like this has hurt his wife quite deeply, and it has put emotional distance between them. So then I wonder, can you really be private about this stuff and still be close? It's a weird paradox. Both feel true. It's like privacy is legitimate, it's kind of sacred, and it can come at a cost. But does it come at a cost because it's inherently wrong to hide any part of yourself from a spouse for long because, like, the moment you're hanging on to something, you're already kind of pulling away? Or does it come at a cost when the other person expects to have access to all of those parts of you when they might not?

36:54Ah, good question. Like, is he automatically hurting her by hiding his preferences and habits? Or is he hurting her because her need to know about this stuff is almost creating the problem?

37:03Gabriel Mizrahi:Made further complicated by the fact that even if he were being totally open with her about all of this, she would probably still be hurt by some of these preferences. Another good point, because yeah, she couldn't blame him for lying or whatever, but she might still feel like she isn't giving him something important that he wants. So there's an interesting opportunity for her to really take stock of the source of her, sources of her hurt and where he needs to take responsibility for the way that he's communicating with her. And, you know, she might also need to take responsibility for taking a little bit better care of herself because she's kind of blaming him for all of her feelings.

37:36Gabriel Mizrahi:I can imagine that it's very tempting for her to say, my husband has been hiding this porn addiction or something like it. He's not being straight up with me about the stuff that he likes. And when he does tell me, he doesn't tell me the full story. And what he does tell me suggests that it's very different from what I can offer him. And that hurts. And I get that from her perspective. That is true. But a moment ago, Jordan, you made room for a couple possibilities on his end that might also be equally true and might, in fact, make his behavior maybe more painful than hurtful, meaning she experiences pain, but he's not intending to hurt her.

38:06Gabriel Mizrahi:She has some tender spots in this department that his private porn use is touching on. And I think that might be important to recognize as well. Agreed. But what I'm also appreciating is that we have the potential to hurt someone unintentionally, especially a partner when we're cagey about certain information. He might not be aware that hiding and communicating like this can create problems, but the reality is that it does create problems. So this question of who's responsible for her pain is kind of, it's a tricky one. Yeah, another excellent point. And it can be true that her pain, which again is fair, really is making it hard for both of them to talk about this.

38:38Gabriel Mizrahi:He might be afraid and overwhelmed by her pain and she might be hurt and kind of turned off by his preferences. Throw all of those feelings together and even if she's sitting in front of him saying, look, I'm willing to hear the truth. I would rather know everything. Even if it hurts, please don't lie to me. He might still feel her judgment, her distaste, her hurt. He might also be contending with his own feelings about all this and just go, I can't, yeah, I can't talk about this fully. But can't, It's a flexible concept. He can learn. That's true. He could if he wants to. Whether he wants to, that's another story.

39:07The tough thing is, Gabe, even if he does decide to start being fully honest, that might bring to the surface other potential incompatibilities between them.

39:16Gabriel Mizrahi:Yeah, getting better with the communication and openness might not fix the problem. In fact, it might ironically make it worse, but it would eliminate at least one huge level of their conflict. She can no longer blame him for withholding. Right, but also this depends on how important their sex life, broadly speaking is to them. For some couples, it's not a big deal and that's fine. Yeah, I mean, it's fine as long as both parties are on the same page and they want the same things, need the same things, value the same things. I'm not sure. Yeah, I'm not sure they are. It's just one more question for them to explore.

39:43I'm also curious, a bit curious anyway, about what else is going on in his life. The big thing hovering in the background, although I can't tell how big of a role it's playing here, is his mother's death.

39:52Gabriel Mizrahi:Oh, yeah. I'm glad you brought this up. It was after she passed away that our friends started finding out about all this stuff. So that is interesting. I thought that was interesting as well. Did he start consuming all this porn as a way to numb himself and his grief and it got out of hand? Was he consuming it the whole time, but the grief made him turn to it even more and he became more reckless about it? Is the grief making him care less about whether our friend finds out and what she thinks? Or is our friend attributing a lot of this, like the Ozempic conversation, to his mom's death because that makes it somehow easier to cope with?

40:20You mean like the only way I can seriously consider this recommendation is if it's truly a question of health and that's tied to your mom's mortality?

40:27Gabriel Mizrahi:That's actually a very interesting possibility. A related one, which is what I thought it was, was you encouraging a Zempic is so hurtful to me. I have to believe that it's because you're grieving that you thought this would go over well at all. I'm kind of hearing both possibilities in her letter. I'm not sure. This Zempic thing, man, is so loaded, yeah. So loaded. I'm afraid that if we got into that, this letter would take up the whole episode. The whole question of size and weight and aesthetics, whether we can legitimately frame this stuff as a question of health or whether the moment you start thinking about losing weight, you're already in disordered territory.

40:56It's all extremely complicated. We are not qualified to really wade into those waters responsibly, but it might be worth making some room here for your own feelings around your weight, whatever they are. This is me inviting you to get curious here. This is not me telling you how to think. You said you're a plus-size woman. I don't know what that means. I can imagine it means a lot of things, but you also said that you're relatively healthy. I realize tiptoeing up to this is already a very delicate matter, and I hope you can tell that I do it with a lot of love. My question for you is, does any of your anger and hurt and confusion about your husband's preferences, does any of that have to do with your own feelings about yourself?

41:31Maybe they have nothing to do with each other. Maybe there's some connection there and it's hard to put your finger on. I want to be clear. I'm not saying, hey, go on Ozempic or you need to make a change, unless you were like medically obese, in which case I would feel pretty comfortable saying it's time to start taking care of yourself. This is objectively dangerous. But my sense is that getting this wreck from your husband is particularly dicey for obvious reasons. And if it turns out that he might have a point here, like if you could be taking better care of yourself, which might have the added benefit of helping your sex life, if that's something you want to do, then there might, might be something valuable for you to hear there.

42:05And I wish it were not coming from him right now in this way, but this is where it's coming from. I recognize this is not a PC take. I recognize that a lot of people are yelling at their car stereos right now and getting angry at me. I make room for all of these reactions and beliefs. And I swear to you, I really do. I'm not here to tell you how you should look or anything, but you chose to include that piece of information, which I appreciate. And by your own admission, your health could be better. So putting aside all of this very painful and naughty and confusing sex and intimacy and honesty stuff, just focusing with a lot of love and curiosity about you, the question I'm posing to you is, are you taking the best possible care of yourself?

42:41Not as a matter of aesthetics, not even just as a way to please your husband, but as a matter of you taking good care of you. And if you did, would that change any of your feelings about all this? Intense question, I know, but I'd be remiss if I didn't put it on the table. Warm up those angry emails, folks. I know it's a minefield. I get it.

43:00Gabriel Mizrahi:Wow. Yeah, very much the DMZ of marriage problems, but I appreciate that. I suppose all relationships are, and that's kind of what we're talking about, right? Marriage is like a gymnasium for trauma and healing. Some people are doing abs alone in the corner. Some people are jumping rope outside. Some people are doing partner squats in the middle of the gym. That metaphor maybe doesn't make a ton of sense, whatever. Lots of different ways to be in a relationship is what I'm saying. Lots of different risks and upsides. Sorry about where you are, my friend. I know it hurts. I'm also confident that you and your husband are right where you need to be because we always are.

43:30But the difference between living with this hurt and evolving from this hurt is what you do with it on your own and with him if he's up for it. But I do really hope that your husband finds a more helpful way to talk to you about this and that you remain open to understanding exactly why this hurts. because my sense is that there are several contours to this hurt. And I hope that together you guys figure out how to talk about all this in a more direct way, including how you repair and how that informs the intimacy between you. Sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best. You know what else you can enjoy with one hand?

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44:53Gabriel Mizrahi:Mother's Day is Sunday, May 10th, and bouquets are selling out fast. Trust me, don't wait. To claim your double roses offer before they're gone, visit 1-800-Flowers.com slash JHS. That's 1-800-Flowers.com slash JHS. 1-800-Flowers.com slash JHS. This episode is also sponsored by Gusto. Running a business, especially a small one, you end up wearing every hat. Some of our hats are not fun. For me, payroll and HR was always one of those, I'll deal with it later kind of tasks until later shows up and now it's urgent or in some kind of emergency. It's one of those things where if you mess it up, it's a big deal.

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46:02Gabriel Mizrahi:try Gusto today at gusto.com slash jordan and get three months free when you run your first payroll that's three months of free payroll at gusto.com slash jordan One more time, gusto.com slash Jordan. Thank you for listening to and supporting the podcast. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are on the website at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those that support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, a couple of weeks ago, your recommendation of the week was Notebook LLM. I was up for a job at the time, major events manager for citywide events.

46:39Gabriel Mizrahi:So I uploaded the job description, role, person spec, and every bit of info I could find about the company and got it to create podcasts about the role, which I listened to throughout the interview process. I was so impressed by what it could do. Amazing use case. I love that you ran with this idea that AI is insanely good. I think I mentioned that a friend used it to create a summary of this pretty complicated legal case that he's involved in. And instead of explaining it to everybody and be like, read the filing, which no one's going to do. He's like, here's a podcast about it. And I just know a lot of students use it.

47:09But prepping for a job interview is another brilliant application of this. Nice work.

47:13Gabriel Mizrahi:I was excited to email you to say that I nailed the interview and got the job, but it didn't go my way. Oh, man. Sorry to hear that. Apparently, it was mine right up until the last person they interviewed who had some very specific experience that I don't have. I'm really experienced in events and entertainment, but this person had police experience, which gave them a safety edge, which was a priority for them. Historically, I've always been great at interviews and got my early roles easily. I've then been promoted into senior positions, but since I had kids and am applying directly for senior roles, I've had this experience of being the runner-up for a job four times.

47:47Gabriel Mizrahi:Three after my first baby two years ago, I ended up going freelance because I couldn't land a job, and now it feels like history is repeating itself after my second baby. People keep reassuring me that the reasons I haven't gotten these jobs were all out of my control. I ask for feedback, and it's always the same story. We loved you. We know you could do it. We'd love to work with you, but someone else had X thing, so we gave it to them. But I am the common denominator, and I'm sure there's something I can do differently. Then, recently, one of the companies I didn't get a role with last time contacted me to say the job is up again, and I have an interview.

48:21Gabriel Mizrahi:Do you have any suggestions of how I can get the edge that will move me from almost there to we definitely need to hire her? Signed, trying to win over the boss when I'm not quite sure how I come across. Excellent question. So first of all, I am very sorry this interview did not go the way you'd hoped. I know the job market is just crazy. And taking time off to have children, that can be tough. And there's so many variables in a job search. It can just be maddening. But there are so many great signs here. The positive feedback, your mindset and taking responsibility for your results, looking for ways to improve, your creativity in the way you prep for interviews, this latest invitation to come back and interview.

48:57Companies don't do that unless they are genuinely interested in you. So this is all great news. So one general thought about getting real feedback while you're interviewing, it is really hard to do. These hiring managers, they might be telling you the truth when they say it was out of your control, that they loved you, that they love to work with you. And look, I get the sense they do mean it, but if there does happen to be more to it than that, they're probably not going to tell you. Both because it's uncomfortable for most people to give direct feedback, which sucks, and because it can sometimes be sensitive or even legally risky.

49:27Also, even if this was out of your control from their perspective, from where they're sitting, somebody better just happened to walk in. That doesn't mean it's actually out of your control. So it's kind of an annoying response, although I get why hiring managers do say that. And even if this were out of your control, that still means the other candidate had something that you didn't, right? So in a sense, it might be under your control insofar as a lot of these qualities or skills are ones you could cultivate too. I mean, you can't become a cop overnight, but you can develop so many skills that you don't have yet.

49:57Gabriel Mizrahi:Or learn to tell the story that you can develop those skills pretty quickly and here's how I would do it given the chance, stuff like that. Exactly. And the story you tell about yourself, it's huge. It's kind of everything. So this is a dilemma that every single candidate finds themselves in. How to know what's really happening when things don't go their way. How to get meaningful feedback when they need it most. And it sounds to me like these interviewers aren't really telling you the full story. Maybe it really is as simple as the other person had police experience, which we suddenly need right now.

50:22I guess that makes a lot of sense.

50:23Gabriel Mizrahi:But that could also mean that your story was not quite as compelling as it could have been for them to overcome that person's experience. Or that they really shined in the interviews and connected on a personal level with the hiring manager, or that they had a relationship with somebody at the company that put them over the edge. I'm speculating, obviously, but it would be great if these companies called you and said, you have A, B, and C qualities we loved. We didn't see D, E, and F. That's where we'd focus, but they're not going to do that. So you're left with a few options. Option one is you go out of your way and be slightly pushy with these hiring managers and get the feedback you need.

50:54This is a bit awkward, but we've heard from listeners who have done this and gotten great notes. They're literally like, hey, listen, between you and me, totally off the record. I could really use some feedback on how this went so I can get better. Please tell me how this went and where I could improve. It takes work and tact, and the hiring manager also has to be willing to talk, but it is doable, and it can be a game changer. Option two is you try to get feedback from other sources, friends, family, peers, career coaches. That's pretty straightforward. word. Option three, you look inward. You do a post-mortem on your interviews.

51:25You consider all the signals and feedback you've gotten up till now. You connect the dots yourself. Of course, ideally, you do all three, but this is the work we need to do in order to get an accurate picture here. So my main question for you is, if you are being brutally honest with yourself, when you get quiet, replay your interactions, really listen, where do you suspect you need to develop? For example, are there any moments from your interviews that tug at you? Maybe a moment where you went, oh, I don't know if I'm really landing this answer. I kind of feel like I'm bullshitting right here.

51:54I'm doing my best and I can see the hiring manager just zoning out a little bit. Those are usually good pointers to areas we need to develop. Another idea, I would study the person who did get the job if you can. Maybe you can ask around about them or check them out on LinkedIn. You might learn something interesting. What experience they have that you don't, how they present themselves, how they brand themselves. LinkedIn is a personal branding extravaganza. I'm not saying you should mimic this person or anything like that. That's probably a losing strategy, but this could be another good source of data.

52:24Gabriel Mizrahi:Another idea, since you're playing with AI, what if you typed up some notes about your job hunt or you recorded a voice note and dropped it into CLOT or ChatGPT or go back to notebook LLM, the good, the bad, you know, the sticking points, the questions you have right now and just asked it to give you an assessment and maybe some next steps and resources to keep developing. I feel like you could easily turn an AI platform into like a kind of career coach. I mean, it is going to get some stuff wrong, but at the very least, it'll point you to some next steps. You know, here maybe there are a few practices or exercises or good books or maybe some communication templates for reaching back out to these hiring managers, you know, like following up, asking for feedback in the right way, stuff like that.

53:00Gabriel Mizrahi:Just an idea. It could be a cool use case as well. It's a great idea. But look, another tough fact about the job search is it's so much of it ends up being about personality, vibe, relationships in a way that's quote unquote unfair. a few people over the years have written us saying exactly that. And I can see why. I used to think like that too. And it can be a tough pill to swallow for people who put a lot of stock into their credentials. But in another way, it's exciting because that's another dimension of this process that you control. And it's a skill like any other. We are tribal creatures, all of us.

53:30We want to work with people we like, people we identify with, people who make us laugh. So yeah, absolutely keep working on your skills. But I would also encourage you to make sure that you're shining just on the level of personality and personal style and connections. Are you relaxed and inviting when you're in these interviews? Or are you a little serious and task oriented? Are you able to chat and have a laugh a little bit during the interview? Or are you all business? Are you cultivating relationships at these companies or just hoping the hiring manager you happen to meet with likes you? Who's rooting for you in the organization?

54:00What social capital are you coming in with?

54:02Gabriel Mizrahi:Are you telling your story and answering their questions in a way that makes them lean in that makes them really want to invest in you? I think that matters. Exactly. Are you going into these interviews feeling a little insecure about taking time off to have kids and having lost out on a few jobs? Or are you going in there really psyched to figure out what they need and how you can meet that need? All of this stuff really matters. I would be remiss if I didn't do a shameless six-minute networking plug here. This is literally what the course is for, both to open doors to the interviews and to make sure that they stay open so you can walk through them, sixminutenetworking.com.

54:31It's really simple stuff. You can start right now developing and maintaining those relationships. In fact, on that note, here's a somewhat crazy idea. What if you reached out to the person who got the job, the one with the police experience, and you were like, hey, I was interviewing for the events job. Congratulations on getting it. I can see why you were a great fit. I'm super intrigued by your background. I would love to connect and have a quick phone call if you're up for it. Whatever version of that feels right to you, if you can even find out who this person is, of course, you never know where that might lead.

54:59Maybe in six months, that person is in a position to hire someone else, or they have relationships at other companies and they make an intro or they fill you in on what these companies are looking for from candidates and how to prep. In fact, when I was a lawyer, one of the things they had us doing because we were recruiting, they were like, oh, Jordan, you went to Michigan. Can you jump on this call with this other guy who's a few classes below you that we might hire? And I would jump on the phone and be like, hey, Andrew, it's Jordan Harbinger. I don't know if you know me. And they're like, oh, yeah, I think I remember you.

55:27You're a couple of years ahead of me. I'm like, yeah, you're thinking about coming to Thatcher, Profit & Wood, huh? And like chatting it up because the company was like, oh, this guy will feel more comfortable if somebody he maybe knows is on the call. And when I got recruited, it was like, oh, Jeremy is over here and go say hi to him. And he was like, oh, Jordan, hey, let me sort of walk you in the door. And as you guys might remember from the show, I did my first interview with this law firm while the interviewer was eating a sandwich because I didn't schedule the interview. I was just walked in.

55:55And he's like, if you're willing to talk to me while I cram this Subway sandwich in my face, then we can do the interview. And it was like 10 minutes of, yeah, well, okay, you want to do this? Do you watch football? Yeah. What do you think of New York? You'd probably be stuck in New York. You cool with that? Yeah. All right. You want some Diet Coke? We got Diet Coke in the back. You know, like that was the interview because Jeremy, who was like my old roommate's new roommate or something like that, was like, oh, Jordan's cool. We've hung out twice. You know, it was like that.

56:23Gabriel Mizrahi:I really do be like that sometimes. Yeah. Look, different market, right? That was law firms going, we will hire anybody with a pulse as long as they're not a super strong liability risk or a total jerk. That was the bar back then. So it's different now. But it's still the whole getting walked into the door thing. Do not underestimate that. But yeah, if somebody reached out to me like that, I think I'd respond very well. And honestly, why not? It's not any crazier than reaching out cold to somebody you have zero connection with at all. But listen, all this said, so much of the job search really is about luck.

56:54Your skills have to align with their needs. You have to be the right candidate at the right moment. There's always a mystery to some degree. And in a sense, there is a lot of stuff that's out of your control. So the best strategy is just to generate as many dots as possible, get as many at-bats as possible to maximize your chances of getting lucky.

57:12Gabriel Mizrahi:Exactly. I think all you need at the end of the day is one company to say yes, but you have to kiss a lot of frogs, way more frogs than you want to have to kiss. Frog kissing. That is what a lot of life is. I'm pumped for you, my friend. You sound like a very diligent, responsible, hardworking person who has a ton to offer. I love that you're asking these questions and opening yourself up to as many sources of guidance as possible. It's inspiring, really. And I know it'll lead you to great places. Good luck. By the way, you can reach us Friday at JordanHarbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise.

57:39Try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a whole lot easier. If you've been disinvited from your brother's wedding because your bride's-to-be had a falling out, you're trying to get your husband to realize that he was raised by narcissists who might abuse your infant son, or you suspect your wife might be in the closet and you want to help her come out before you separate, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. All right, you know what's almost as great as a life-changing career opportunity?

58:06A discount code on a mattress and or living trust and or some supplements. We'll be right back. This episode is brought to you in part by Lufthansa. When people talk about travel, They usually focus on the destination, the hotel, the restaurants, all the stuff that happens after you land. But the flight is part of the experience, too. Just like a great hotel can shape an entire trip, so can a great flight. That's exactly what Lufthansa Allegris is built around. On a long-haul route, comfort matters more than people realize. If you're cramped, tired, and can't relax, you feel it the second you land.

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59:01And that's what I like most. It feels elevated but still practical. More privacy, more comfort, more thoughtful design for the way people actually travel now. Visit Lufthansa.com and search for Allegris to learn more. Lufthansa Allegris. All it takes is a yes. Limited availability on select routes. More routes coming soon. This episode is sponsored in part by AT &T. You know why I love summer? All those plans we made. They finally make it out of the group chat. Seems like there's more time to fit everybody in. Whatever you've got in store this summer, capturing those memories is a must. That's why I love the iPhone 17 Pro I picked up from AT &T.

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1:00:10By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, Come check out our newsletter, Wee Bit Wiser. It is, it's a bite-sized gem from a past episode from us to you delivered to your inbox on most Wednesdays. If you want to keep up with the show and the wisdom from it, it's a great place to come and do that. You can sign up at jordanharbinger.com slash news. All right, next up.

1:00:29Gabriel Mizrahi:Hey, Jordan and Gabe. It's always astounded me how during an episode, you guys will say something like, that was episode 1192 with so-and-so for anyone wondering. I've always figured it was a note written beforehand, but we've all learned that Jordan's memory has washboard abs. That is a very charitable way to say that I have the memory of Dory from Finding Nemo, but okay. Your memory is rocking a vicious six-pack, my dude. The reframe, I didn't know I needed. Do you plan ahead of time the episodes you might reference during an interview, or do you just know them by memory? Yeah, we definitely do not know them by memory.

1:01:00When one of us says this, we either thought about a related episode when doing the prep and made a note to include it. Or, and this is more often the case, I'd say, we'll think of it in the moment, quickly Google it, and then mention it. And through the power of editing, it sounds like it was in the moment. And or Gabe will text me while I'm talking with the episode number that he looked up so we don't have to stop. So I got an old Gabe GPT over here helping out.

1:01:22Gabriel Mizrahi:Another question. If you're cool with it, can you explain how you get ad revenue and how we can support you as listeners? Use your promotion codes. Got it. But is that it? That is the main way, yes. And as I say all the time, it is so huge for us. It's literally the reason we can do this show. And it means the world to us when you guys use our sponsor codes when you need to get something for the house or buy a gift or whatever. It's just absolutely huge. Nothing replaces it. That's why we have the deals page and everything to make it as easy as possible. Sometimes I find myself listening to the ad break because I think it could potentially help, but I'm never sure.

1:01:53Gabriel Mizrahi:If I'm going to listen to Jordan sing the Holmes chime, I'd like to think that there's an upside. So some places check, like, did the ad get delivered? but if you're forwarding through it, it's still delivered because it's downloaded. I mean, I don't know if there's some magical metric out there that measures whether people fast forward through the breaks as well, and that factors into things somehow. I don't think that there is yet, but when you stick around and listen, you get the codes. You hear me talk about products that I have personal experience with, and I hope that gives you confidence and trust that I really genuinely believe in the sponsors and everybody wins, so that's why I hope you stick around.

1:02:24Gabriel Mizrahi:Finally, sometimes Jordan responds to Gabe reading the letter in real time, interjecting with outrage. For example, what? Oh my god, this is heartbreaking. I can't believe this. This person is crazy. Full stop. Which sounds like he's responding to something as he's listening to it with us. But then later he'll say something like, we wanted to run this one by Corbin Payne, making it clear that they've already done their due diligence on it. Or his answer includes some sort of script he's offering the writer about how to respond to someone they're writing in about. How often does Jordan go into a question blind versus with a plan?

1:02:56Gabriel Mizrahi:Anyway, just thoughts that came to mind. They're very low stakes, which is why I've never asked before, but I just got the itch this morning. Signed, pretty chuffed to learn some stuff about how often you're truly off the cuff. Fair question, and I'm happy to pull back the curtain a little here, even though part of me is like, do most people really care about the process? Just enjoy the sausage, bro. So the answer is, yes, sometimes I really do go into a letter totally blind. It happens all the time. This is how I used to do the show in the early days, all the time, 100 % of the time. It was fun to improvise, but there were obvious downsides.

1:03:25However, over the years, your letters have gotten more and more complex and more and more nuanced and longer, and they've demanded better and better answers. Then Gabe came on board with five or six years ago now.

1:03:37Gabriel Mizrahi:Almost six years. Yeah. Six years ago, let's say. And our workflow changed a lot. Gabe, I'm about to pull back the curtain on you for a moment. I hope that's cool. Yeah, no problem. I'm just over here watching some porn. Yeah. So just let me know when you're done talking. Okay. Power Googling, not safe for work content. That's going to make me insecure about my thighs. Good luck proving it, dude. My browser history has washboard abs. You clear that cash, bruh. Catch me outside. How about that? That's right. Man, that's so good. The mantra of every dude who rubs one out in a shared family laptop from the laundry room during his lunch break.

1:04:06Anyway, so the thing about Gabe, he's big on the prep. This is a man who preps. And when he joined the show, he brought a lot more research and diligence than we had before. He made a big push to build our community of subject matter experts. He likes to take a lot of notes and come in with at least some general take. And all of that just sort of rubbed off on me. I learned to like that way of working, even though I'm a very improvisational person, as you guys know. So it just kind of became our process, both of us prepping individually, mostly, but sometimes together when it's a really tough question and then just flowing when we sit down to record.

1:04:38But as you can tell, we still feel our way through things and banter and stumble into digressions and stories and stuff like that. So this is one of the things I appreciate about my collaboration with Gabe. I think we balance each other in a lot of ways. My chaos builds on his prep and his prep grounds my chaos.

1:04:52Gabriel Mizrahi:That's a nice way to put it. It really is an interesting yin-yang, you and I. So what you're usually hearing on Feedback Friday is a combination of rigorous prep, because that's what you guys deserve, frankly, and spontaneity. And actually, just to touch on something really powerful I've learned in my career, it is the rigorous prep that allows for the spontaneity. I'm always surprised by how hard you have to work in order to truly be in the moment and be effective. But I digress. But about those questions where I'm reacting to the letter, even though I've clearly already read it, you're actually hearing two things there.

1:05:22One thing is, I enjoy reacting to the letter as if it's my first time hearing it. And sometimes I'm remembering my reaction the first time I read it, and I'm just restating it, because it kind of puts us all in the same position. I don't know how that started. It was just organic. But a bunch of you told me you like when we do that. And I guess that's one way that we get to be playful within the prep. The other thing you're hearing, though, like you just said, my memory has washboard abs, my cognitive transverse abdominis is jacked. So sometimes when Gabe is reading the letter, I am genuinely reacting as if it is my first time hearing it.

1:05:53That probably doesn't make me look very good, but it's the truth. I'll read a letter, make some notes, turn it over in my mind. And then days later, a million things have happened since then. We read it together days later and I'll be like, oh, oh, his sister ratted him out. I didn't catch that the first hour. Wait, his mother said that? I totally forgot about that. So it's kind of ridiculous, I know, but that is actually how my mind works or doesn't work.

1:06:13Gabriel Mizrahi:It is such a funny thing. I end up spending more time with the letters than you do because I pick them and I edit them and then I read them several times while I'm taking notes. But even I hear new things and then when we read them together, because after I've thought about a story and then I reread it for the fourth, fifth, sixth time or whatever, the details do take on new meaning for me anyway. And I'll start making new connections and then it's like I get to enjoy your stories all over again on a new level. And then sometimes Jordan will seize on a certain detail in a letter. That also makes me pay attention in a new way.

1:06:42It's like, you know, when you're

1:06:43Gabriel Mizrahi:hanging out with a really good friend and then all of a sudden you're aware of like how funny something is that you would have missed when you're alone or they point something out and you're like, oh yeah, that is weird. That is really beautiful. That is hilarious. You know, that just makes the letters new for me as well all over again. Yeah, that's part of our collaboration. I think seeing these letters through multiple prisms, it's an interesting thing doing a show like this. Part of the magic, and I also have to give a shout out to Jace, our editor, who's just a wizard in the edit. So much of what is seamless about a great show is the editor's touch.

1:07:11Part of the magic is what he does to create this thing every week without pointing to the wires. But it's also kind of cool to pull back the curtain a little bit. And who knows, maybe our way of working gives you some ideas for how to do your own work. And yeah, you know, kind of what Feedback Friday is all about learning from one another all the time. So thank you for ruining everything with your questions. No, I'm glad you're enjoying the show. Thank you for asking this question in our subreddit. I think that's kind of a fun place to discuss these kinds of things. And other people, so many people have the same or similar our questions and upvoted it that we decided to bring it here on the show.

1:07:42Speaking of our subreddit, if you want to join us over there, it's on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit if you are a redditor. A lot of cool conversations happening over there. You know what? I'm definitely improvising on the fly and have not prepared at all. This ad pivot. We'll be right back.

1:08:00Gabriel Mizrahi:Catch the NBA playoffs on Sling TV, the most flexible live TV streaming service, putting consumers in control to watch games their way with flexible subscriptions. Want to catch one game or a full series on ESPN? Grab a one, three, or seven-day pass. If you want to catch as many games as possible, get a monthly subscription with our ABC, NBC, and ESPN combo package. Either way, Sling lets you watch the playoffs your way with no long-term contracts. Learn more at Sling.com. This episode is sponsored in part by Conspirituality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation?

1:08:38Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling New Age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy-mad yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation. It's called the Conspirituality Podcast. The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic, dive deep into how this stuff spreads, from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies. An interesting episode to check out is called Speaking Truth to Goop, where Jen Gunter breaks down the pseudoscience behind the wellness industry in a way that is super entertaining and eye-opening.

1:09:11It's sharp, funny, and makes you a lot harder to fool, which if you listen to this show, you know I'm all about that. From exploring cults to analyzing our cultural and political landscape, the Conspirituality Podcast will help you stay informed against misinformation and resist fear tactics. Find Conspirituality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do. That is take a moment, support the sponsors. They're all searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com slash deals.

1:09:41And hey, if you can't find a code, something's not working for you, do email me jordan at jordanharbinger.com. Somebody here will dig up that code for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now, time for the recommendation of the week. I am addicted to lit filler. My recommendation of the week is, and this is going to sound kind of silly as many of these are, but it's the paint your own pottery places. You know, you pass these all the time and you never go in there. A little while back, one of Jaden's friends from school invited him to go to one of these places.

1:10:12I think it was just like she was taking her kids and she's like, oh, come join us. Jen's like, hey, do you want to come? We're kind of close by right now. And I was like, I'll stay in the car. She's like, this is going to be like 90 minutes long at least. And so I was like, I'll go in. And she's like, do you want to make a clay thing? And I was like, no, I'm just going to hang out. So the kids are painting Juniper and Jaden. They made piggy banks, which they still use months later. And then Jen's like, yeah, just make something. So Jen and I got into it. We made each other wedding ring holders out of these little things they have sort of pre-made for you to paint.

1:10:41And now it sits on my desk and I put my ring on it from time to time. It's just a really cute thing that I see every day that my wife made for me and I made one for her and she's got hers in her bathroom. And I noticed that my dad actually still uses a crappy bowl that I made for him in maybe kindergarten or something like that is a change bowl. And I remember they were like, do you want to glaze this? And I was like, no. So it's like this unglazed painted solid blue only with holes in it. Terrible, terrible clay bowl. And it's 40 plus years old on his desk that I made for him. You know, I was thinking the other day because I went over to their house.

1:11:16They moved across the street a few years ago. The bowl is still on his desk. So he moved to California with this bowl that I made for him 40 years ago. And I just realized, wow, this bowl means something to him. This is a guy who got rid of everything, right? He basically kept like a chair, I think a bed, his desk, and his clothes. And then he brought this crappy change bowl. So I'm kind of a fan of this. You pay a lot, it's expensive, it's something small, but what you get is super cute and it's a fun thing to do together as a family or a friend group. So that's actually my Wreck of the Week.

1:11:48Go overpay for a crappy ceramic bowl and it might just become a family heirloom and a fun memory.

1:11:54Gabriel Mizrahi:Color me mine. How about that? Yeah, how about that? All right, next up. Hello, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a fairly new listener of the show last three months, but I love every minute of it. I feel like a genuinely better person and more critical thinker ever since I started. I am at a great point in my life with college kicking off and I'm starting to make meaningful relationships that I hope will benefit me later in life as well as right now. So cool. Amazing to hear, my friend. Super proud of you. Yes, I've read this letter once before, but I literally just heard that as if it were the first time.

1:12:22And yes, I am genuinely proud of you. Gabe, this is weird. I am super in my head about responding in real time. This is genuine, you guys. I swear I don't remember most of this stuff by the time I see it here.

1:12:32Gabriel Mizrahi:I am also incredibly blessed to have never experienced depression or a depressive episode or severe instability. I am almost always happy, which might be some different disorder I don't know about. Yeah, well, now you're just bragging. No, that's fun. I mean, you're lucky. That's great. Good for you. At college, I have an awesome friend group of people I've known since high school. What brought us together is a community theater that we all perform in and we fall a bit into the dramatic stereotype, in that most of us are very open about hardships and mental health struggles. Everyone in the group except me and this one other guy have talked about a depressive episode and all the others talk about how they relate.

1:13:07Gabriel Mizrahi:But when they turn to me, I have nothing to say. Maybe I'm misunderstanding things, but it feels like this is really becoming a wedge in my relationships with all these people. I currently just say something along the lines of, I'm so sorry that happens to you, Do you want to talk about it? But that feels more ineffective as time goes on. Honestly, that's a great place to begin. Yeah, the perfect place, I would say. I wonder why that's becoming more and more ineffective. Do they want something different from this listener? Do they sense that they don't mean it? Or do they want to just complain about being depressed but not really talk about it?

1:13:38I'm confused.

1:13:38Gabriel Mizrahi:Or is this all perfectly fine, but our friend is just being like maybe a tad paranoid that they're not fully there for them or something? Anyway, they go on. I really want to be able to make these friends feel like they are seen and heard, but I don't know how to do that without truly knowing what they go through. How would you talk to these friends about this difficult topic without them feeling distant or unheard? And how would you tackle conversations like this in general? Signed, hitting a spot of trouble as I increasingly fumble when it comes to my friends' mubble fubbles. Interesting question.

1:14:08So first of all, you sound like a solid friend, that you want the people around you to feel seen and heard, that you want to be there for them, especially since you haven't struggled in the same way. it's very touching. I'm sure it means a lot to them. As I said a moment ago, when you see a friend struggling and you say, I'm sorry you're going through it or you went through that, do you want to talk about it? I think that's a really thoughtful way to respond.

1:14:29Gabriel Mizrahi:Yeah, truly one of the kindest things I think you can say to someone. Really, do you want to talk? I'm here to listen, whatever you want. I agree. Assuming you mean it, of course, you're not just saying the words to say the words and check a box or you say it and they start opening up and you either check out or you start doing something else, like trying to talk them out of it or you're giving them advice too quickly or something like that. I assume you're not doing any of that. It's just, it's good to keep an eye on those things. And if you offer and the other person doesn't take you up on it, that's perfectly all right.

1:14:56You can let it go or you trust they'll take you up on it when they're ready. Or you can say, if you ever want to talk, I'm here. Honestly, I'm not sure what you're supposed to do beyond that. Once they engage, we could talk about how to listen, how to relate, how to be in a tough conversation, how to be loving and supportive. But all that, it begins by just taking an interest in them in the first place, which you seem to be doing.

1:15:14Gabriel Mizrahi:Well, it's the relating part that our friend seems to be getting hung up on. Like they said, I really want to be able to make these friends feel seen and heard, but I don't know how to do that without truly knowing what they go through. There's something in there. But that's what empathy is, isn't it? Relating to and identifying with somebody, even when you haven't been through what they've been through. It can be hard sometimes. It's not impossible. I wonder if that might be where they're getting stuck, though. Like, can I really be there for someone if I haven't been through exactly what they've been through?

1:15:40Gabriel Mizrahi:But I'm with you, Jordan. And yes, of course, and how amazing that we have the capacity to do that. But we have to develop that capacity, especially if it doesn't come naturally to us. And you might have to listen for a little while and learn more about the other person to really be there for them. So if you're struggling to understand what it is your friends deal with, then that's a great opportunity to say, you know, it's weird, but I haven't really experienced depression before. Or I haven't dealt with it the way you have. So can you explain a little more? What does it feel like? How do you cope with it?

1:16:07Gabriel Mizrahi:What do you want from other people when you're feeling down? You know, how can I help? And then again, just listen. I'm sure that would mean a lot to them too. That's a nice approach for anything, really, not just depression. Gabe, I wonder if maybe our friend here is a little too concerned about supporting their friends. Yeah, interesting. That's kind of what I was getting at a moment ago. But what do you mean by that? Well, okay, it's super sweet. They want to be there for them. I think that comes from a genuine place. But I'm also hearing almost like an anxiety about not being there for them in the quote unquote perfect way.

1:16:32I don't know.

1:16:33Gabriel Mizrahi:Yeah, I'm hearing that too. There's genuinely wanting to connect and understand and worrying that you're not showing up in the best way for people. I get that. I appreciate that. And then there's this like obsessing or spinning out that you're failing your friends if you don't get them to talk about something or they don't see you as a person that they can talk to about a certain thing. And I wonder if both might be happening here. Yeah, that's a really good observation. And so if there is a bit of that second anxiety, what is that about? Is our friend worried that these people are not going to stay close or they're not going to view our friend a certain way if they don't open up?

1:17:02Gabriel Mizrahi:Does our friend feel some guilt or maybe even like a perverse envy that they don't experience depression in the same way? does our friend have some anxiety about being just being different from them like huh i don't struggle with the same stuff that they do so am i really in the tribe or you know is my place in this friend group a little precarious because i'm not depressed like all the theater kids and you know i'm not able to be in their depression with them so where do i stand that's interesting you know now that you put it like that i have a strong feeling that the last thing is playing a role especially at this age what 17 18 yeah hanging with friends who go back all the way to high school i think in that life stage also as an adult but especially as a young adult this question of do my friends and I share the same neuroses, the same struggles, it feels very important.

1:17:43And if you're on a different wavelength in whatever significant way, it can feel a little scary.

1:17:47Gabriel Mizrahi:Yeah, well put. Whereas the capacity for both difference and empathy hopefully increases as you age and you can stay close with people who are very different from you, but you hopefully also don't care as much about belonging in that way. Well, that's kind of where my mind is going. I don't want to be overly tough here because this sounds like a sweet group of people, actors, community theater people, probably very sensitive, very extra, very in their feelings. And that probably creates a lot of intimacy, vulnerability, and that's sweet. But if your connection with these friends, if your belonging in this group as a whole depends largely on your mood states or your ability to get your friends to open up to you about their struggles, and that's the main thing these friendships hinge on, I'll put it this way, that's something to keep an eye on.

1:18:28Okay, I'm not telling you to ditch your friends or anything like that, but I also wouldn't work overly hard to stay close with people or fight for a certain place in a friend group if that's the main connective tissue. And I get why it's a big part of this community. I get why you're concerned about it. But it's also just something interesting to notice why exactly this feels so urgent to you and how that shapes the dynamics of the group. But honestly, that's something I would say to anybody in any friend group, because the motivations and politics of friend groups get tricky sometimes. And it's OK to grow in different directions.

1:19:01Gabriel Mizrahi:It's okay to grow in different directions, and it's also okay to trust that you can have different mental health from these people and still be a valuable part of the group. You know, you can still love these people and you can still be loved, even if your mind works differently. Yes, but I love that you want to nurture your relationships. I love that you want to be there for people. That quality is going to serve you so well in life. But you might be learning about the limit of your influence on other people, the limit of your ability to get them to relate to you in the way that you want. It's important to remember that it's also up to other people to decide whether to accept your interest and empathy and respecting those signals.

1:19:33My feeling is keep being kind, keep being curious, keep being nonjudgmental and available and all that good stuff and keep listening. And you truly can't go wrong. Thanks for joining our show, fam. Well done on running with everything you're learning and for sharing your question with us. We need more emo community theater nerds in our community. Keeps me and Gabe in the feels. Good luck. Don't forget to check out our episodes, David Royce, Dr. Courtney Conley, Todd Rose, and our skeptical Sunday on the moon, if you haven't done so yet. Speaking of emo, the moon, so dramatic, am I right? Show notes and transcripts on the website at jordanharbinger.com, advertisers, deals, ways to support the show on the website as well at jordanharbinger.com slash deals.

1:20:12I'm at jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, Gabe's on Insta at Gabriel Mizrahi. If you wanna see great waterfalls, some amazing waterfalls and barefoot feet pics. Actually, you might make some extra money from that. I don't know. Do I get a cut if people start buying your feet pics? We'll discuss. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, Ian Baird, Tata Sadlowskis, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer.

1:20:43Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. You probably don't picture drug cartel operations running through rural America, but that's exactly why they're so hard to stop. Mariana Van Zeller breaks down how these networks hide in plain sight using everyday systems and small town blind spots to stay one step ahead.

1:21:15Gabriel Mizrahi:I've been covering the cartel for many years now. And I sort of wanted to do a story about cartel presence in the U.S. And once we started researching it, I realized that actually the story should be about all the things that we don't know about cartel presence in the U.S., including the fact that they're in small-town America. So one of our first shoots for that episode was in Georgia. And we started with a murder investigation of this woman who was tortured, and they cut off her fingers and then eventually killed her. And she was killed by the cartel. and it was in the middle of nowhere in Georgia.

1:21:49Gabriel Mizrahi:And then we followed the investigation and realized that they're everywhere and particularly like to operate in small-town America. Less law enforcement, easier to hide the drugs and have their distribution networks. You know what's so interesting about that story is that in order to get access to the cartel in the U.S., we actually had to go down to Mexico and gain permission and have them say yes. Because a lot of these groups have people that work for them in the U.S. Obviously the U.S. is the end goal where they're sending their drugs. And so eventually he said, OK, we've got you. And it was all set up and we were supposed to meet them in Minnesota.

1:22:23Gabriel Mizrahi:We get there and then we waited and waited and waited for days. I'm like, I never showed up. I want people to see many of these traffickers. Again, we do not condone what they do. It's difficult to even empathize. But the majority of the people that I talk to are people just like you and me that don't have the opportunities or the luck that we have. I try to always do my job as a journalist, which is hold people accountable. If you want to hear how cartels hide in plain sight, check out episode 1302 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.

1:23:13Mike brings on top experts and asks the exact questions that you'd want to ask, and the topics are all over the place in the best way. Recently, they've covered things like why we care so much what other people think, the benefits of laughter, why sports fans get so invested, and what makes people like you or not. The through line is always the same. Smart ideas you can actually use in real life. Something you should know has been featured in Apple's Shows We Love, and it's got thousands of five-star reviews because it's consistently interesting. So if you want another show that scratches that I want to understand how people in the world really work itch, search for Something You Should Know wherever you get your podcasts.

1:23:48Look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening. You can thank me later.