1366: Gut Health | Skeptical Sunday

11:39Jordan Harbinger:So in addition to this massive nervous system, your gut is home to trillions of microorganisms, mostly bacteria, but also fungi, viruses, other single-celled organisms. And they all ferment fiber. They produce these short-chain fatty acids, make vitamins. and they help train your immune system. So you absolutely need them.

12:05Jessica Wynn:So we're outnumbered by our gut bacteria inside our own body.

12:10Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, but not the way people used to claim. So for years, you'd hear that we're 10 times more bacteria than human, but that number was way overblown. The newer estimate is closer to one, maybe about 1.3 bacterial cells for every human cell. So yes, technically, you are slightly more bacteria than human by cell count.

12:33Jessica Wynn:That is a little disturbing that I'm just a convenient host organism, essentially. That's kind of gross.

12:39Jordan Harbinger:It's kind of amazing, though. You know, it's an ecosystem. And those microbes communicate chemically with your enteric nervous system, which then talks to your brain. So in a way, your gut bacteria can influence your brain.

12:53Jessica Wynn:And this is where people go, cool, my bacteria are controlling my life, and this explains my diet coke addiction.

12:59Jordan Harbinger:And that's where we need to slow down. So influence is not control. Your brain integrates thousands of inputs like hunger, memory, culture, stress, sleep, budget, and yes, gut signals. But you're not being puppeteered by your gut or anything.

13:19Jessica Wynn:But can my gut think if it's a brain? No. But it's a brain.

13:23Jordan Harbinger:It's called a second brain because of the number of neurons. Okay. And because it uses the similar neurotransmitters as your actual brain. But it doesn't think. It doesn't reason. It can't compose poetry or solve equations or even decide what you should have for dinner.

13:42Jessica Wynn:It is musical, though. But no, so what can it do? What can it actually do?

13:47Jordan Harbinger:Sample your tummy.

13:48Jessica Wynn:That's right.

13:49Jordan Harbinger:It manages digestion. So it has these complex, sophisticated reflexes, but not thoughts. There's no consciousness. Even the scientist who coined the term second brain, his name was Michael Gershon, was very clear. The ENS doesn't help with the great thought processes like religion, philosophy or art. That's left to the brain in the head.

14:13Jessica Wynn:So it's not solving the Arab-Israeli conflict anytime soon. Fine.

14:17Jordan Harbinger:Don't go with your gut on that.

14:18Jessica Wynn:No, look, I'm fine with it. I don't need my colon weighing in on my life choices.

14:23Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, you're complicated enough.

14:24Jessica Wynn:Yeah, okay, but let me push back on something. You said people with depression have different gut bacteria. How would depression cause changes in gut bacteria?

14:34Jordan Harbinger:There's lots of possibilities. So lifestyle can certainly play a role. Someone who's depressed may eat differently, sleep differently, move less, socialize less, or experience more chronic stress, and all of that can affect the microbiome. But depression also involves biological changes throughout your entire body, like your immunity, hormones, and inflammation, and that also can affect the gut directly. So when we see different gut bacteria in depressed people, we can't assume the bacteria caused the depression. Bacteria may be part of the story. They may be responding to it or both. The bacteria could be a culprit, a symptom, a little of each.

15:18Jordan Harbinger:We just don't know exactly yet.

15:20Jessica Wynn:So the honest answer is that we found a relationship, but we haven't untangled it. And that's a lot less exciting than scientists discover sadness bacteria.

15:29Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, it's much less exciting, but the wheels of science can move slow, right? So it's much more accurate, though. Sometimes we just have to sit with not knowing, at least yet.

15:42Jessica Wynn:Yeah, okay, so hold on. If we're still figuring all that out, why are probiotics everywhere? Yogurt, commercial supplements, and drinks? Every one of them seems to imply they know exactly what's happening in my gut. So are they legit? Does that stuff even do anything?

15:56Jordan Harbinger:Specific strains can help specific conditions. But everyone's microbiome is unique. It's like a fingerprint. And everyone's gut has about at least a thousand different species of bacteria. So the idea that one probiotic supplement with maybe five or 10 strains of bacteria is going to, quote unquote, fix your gut, it just doesn't make sense.

16:21Jessica Wynn:Yeah, it seems like tossing a handful of tourists into Manhattan and hoping to change the culture of the city.

16:26Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, right, right. I mean, they might stay, they might die off, they might not make any difference at all.

16:31Jessica Wynn:Yeah, the tourists, right? Probiotics are useless or is that an overstatement?

16:35Jordan Harbinger:No, they're not useless. Some strains like lactobacillus or bifidobacterium can help reduce IBS symptoms in some people. There's also evidence that certain probiotics can reduce antibiotic-associated diarrhea. That's why some doctors recommend them during or after a course of antibiotics.

16:55Jessica Wynn:Yes. Whenever I take antibiotics, I buy one of those refrigerated nuclear level probiotics from the pharmacy. And I swear I feel better because it's like you have the gut stuff from the antibiotics. And I just it's not like right when I take one, it works. But basically, one day later, I'm all good. But that could also just be my body recovering naturally. I really don't know.

17:16Jordan Harbinger:It could help speed it up. I mean, that's the tricky part. Some evidence suggests certain probiotics can do that. They can reduce antibiotic-associated side effects. But that's a much narrower claim than probiotics are good for everyone all the time. They're not this miracle cure the marketing suggests.

17:37Jessica Wynn:So they're not the miracle cure the marketing suggests. Okay, it's like supplements, which, as we know, are not exactly tightly regulated. Not at all.

17:46Jordan Harbinger:Several studies have found that many contain dead bacteria. Some don't match the label. And even if they are legit, there's just no guarantee they survive your specific digestive system or have the ability to colonize your gut.

18:03Jessica Wynn:That's what I wondered. I was like, can't you digest pretty much anything and you have acid in there just kills everything? Wow. It's a gamble. So you basically might be paying for a capsule of dead microbes or soon to be dead microbes.

18:14Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, potentially.

18:15Jessica Wynn:What about yogurt? That feels less scammy somehow because it's just food and it's not$72.

18:21Jordan Harbinger:Fermented foods like yogurt, kimchi. Oh, just this morning I read that there's new studies coming out showing that eating kimchi, microplastics will latch onto it and pass it. No way. Yeah, like they think kimchi will clean out plastics. Anyway, that was just a side note I saw this morning. I don't know the facts behind it yet, though.

18:46Jessica Wynn:Except for there's probably lead in kimchi. Hey, pick your poison.

18:49Jordan Harbinger:Which would you like?

18:51Jessica Wynn:Yeah, I'm kidding about that, hopefully.

18:53Jordan Harbinger:But yeah, fermented foods like that, sauerkraut, whatever, they're generally a good idea for all kinds of reasons. But they contain live bacteria plus other nutrients, and humans have eaten them for thousands of years. But that's very different from taking high doses of isolated strains in a capsule form.

19:13Jessica Wynn:I actually eat a lot of yogurt and kimchi. Not together. That would be freaking disgusting. Kimchi is fermented cabbage for people who don't know. Like spicy fermented cabbage and vegetables that you eat in a Korean restaurant. It is good, especially if you like spicy food. Yogurt and kimchi is a hell of a lot cheaper than an$80 bottle of probiotics that might just be dead and or sawdust from China or something. The amount of kimchi you could get for$80, you could get a metric shit ton, which is A very good measurement to use in the gut episode for 80 bucks. So the yogurt commercials with the animated bacteria throwing a rave in your intestines, what's going on?

19:52Jordan Harbinger:I mean, they're extremely optimistic about what's actually happening.

19:57Jessica Wynn:Can probiotics be harmful? Because if I'm eating live bacteria, I don't know, it sounds like that could also hurt you.

20:04Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, people assume that natural means safe. It doesn't. For most healthy people, probiotics, they're probably fine. But probiotics can cause serious infections if you're immunocompromised, if you have HIV in some cancer patients or people on immunosuppressant drugs. There are documented cases of all of that.

20:26Jessica Wynn:So bacteria can cause bacterial infections. OK, that's yeah. Correct.

20:32Jordan Harbinger:Yeah.

20:32Jessica Wynn:So we've come full circle.

20:33Jordan Harbinger:Also, high doses of probiotics can cause issues like delactic acidosis, which is too much lactic acid, leading to brain fog and confusion. And for people with SIBO, which is small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, you're adding bacteria to a system that already has too many.

20:54Jessica Wynn:Ah, okay. So probiotics are not universally good. They're not like, I guess, you could probably take too much vitamins too, but they're not vitamins.

21:02Jordan Harbinger:They're not vitamins. They're live organisms. And that's a totally different category.

21:07Jessica Wynn:Detox is often just diarrhea with better branding. More after this. More content, not more diarrhea. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by HomeServe. One of the least enjoyable parts of owning a home is realizing that something expensive can stop working without giving you any notice. The air conditioner does not check your calendar before quitting during a heat wave and a burst pipe is somehow never polite enough to happen during normal business hours. Then you're scrambling to find somebody reliable while wondering how large the bill is actually going to be. If I needed help for that kind of surprise, HomeServe is what I would use.

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23:51Jessica Wynn:If somebody changes their diet or takes probiotics, how fast does anything happen?

23:57Jordan Harbinger:We honestly don't know. Some studies show microbiome changes happen within days to weeks, but many revert back immediately once you stop. So we don't know what's permanent, what's temporary, or even who responds. I see.

24:12Jessica Wynn:So the expensive supplement you're taking might not even do anything long term.

24:16Jordan Harbinger:It's probably not, which is why you should eat lots of diverse plants and fermented foods and just be skeptical of expensive supplements making big promises like curing leaky gut or whatever.

24:31Jessica Wynn:Okay. Leaky gut sounds terrifying and gross. My intestines have a plumbing failure. Holes in your intestines just sounds horrible.

24:39Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, the medical term is intestinal permeability. And it is real. So the gut barrier can become too permeable, allowing inflammatory molecules into the bloodstream. So this only happens in specific diseases, though, in Crohn's, celiac, and really severe infections. But the wellness industry turned leaky gut into this catch-all explanation for your fatigue, acne, anxiety, brain fog, basically like what we said, all the symptoms of just being alive.

25:14Jessica Wynn:And then you're sold a repair kit.

25:15Jordan Harbinger:With very little evidence it repairs anything unless you have an actual diagnosed condition that requires medical treatment. So if you have inflammatory bowel disease, you need medical treatment, not collagen powder.

25:31Jessica Wynn:So if someone's selling a leaky gut repair kit, just be very skeptical.

25:35Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, especially if they diagnosed your leaky gut based on symptoms like sometimes I'm tired or I get bloated after eating.

25:44Jessica Wynn:Which describes everybody who's ever eaten. Okay. There's so much social media convincing people that you are full of worms, literally, with videos like, check out this tapeworm the size of a garden hose. And it's so vom.

25:57Jordan Harbinger:Oh, my God, Jordan. Researching this episode has absolutely destroyed my algorithm. It's so gross. So prepare yourself next time you open Instagram.

26:08Jessica Wynn:Yeah, I do not want my algorithm thinking my primary interest is catastrophic intestinal parasites. But hold on, tell me, do we all have parasites? I've heard that. Are there worms in me right now, basically?

26:19Jordan Harbinger:Probably not. At least not if you're living in the United States or other developed countries. Intestinal parasitic infections are actually quite rare in the general population.

26:32Jessica Wynn:But not zero.

26:33Jordan Harbinger:Not zero, but rare. The most common are pinworms, which are mostly in children, or Giardia, which you can get from contaminated water. if you're camping or traveling. But if you had parasites, you'd very likely have symptoms like severe diarrhea, weight loss, pain, and sometimes visible worms in your stool. It's not subtle.

26:58Jessica Wynn:What are these videos all over social media, the ones where someone does a cleanse and then just proudly films the toilet? I know, so crazy. Like they've just bested an alien species. There are these long, like, ropey things floating around and everyone's like, oh my God, look at all the parasites. Yeah, they're actually called mucus casts. Oh, do I even want to ask, what is a mucus cast?

27:21Jordan Harbinger:So your intestines naturally produce mucus. It's protective, it's normal, it's also gross. But it cleanses, which are basically harsh laxatives, irritate your gut and increase mucus production. So that mucus gets shaped by the intestines and comes out looking like ropes or worms.

27:42Jessica Wynn:Okay. So this is less worm removal and more, you know, arts and crafts. A little paper mache. Got it. Yeah.

27:48Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, they're not real worms. So rope worms aren't even a real medical entity. They're not a species of parasite. They're mucus, maybe with some undigested food or intestinal lining cells mixed in, just shaped into these disturbing-looking formations by the cleanse itself.

28:07Jessica Wynn:OK, but skeptics insist mucoid plaque is real. It's where parasites hide and it stores heavy metals. And Western medicine denies this on purpose. Something something big pharma.

28:19Jordan Harbinger:Yeah. Okay. So mucoid plaque was coined in the 1980s by a naturopath and like an alternative medicine practitioner, not a physician named Richard Anderson, who was selling cleanses. Ah, well. So, yeah, mucoid plaque does not appear in any medical textbook. Thousands of colonoscopies are performed every day in which doctors look directly at the intestines. They don't see layers of toxic sludge. Autopsies never show it. There's just no proof.

28:55Jessica Wynn:Yeah, I mean, I've even seen, I looked at the camera on my colonoscopy because I didn't fall asleep right away and then I woke up. I think I've told this story a hundred times on the show, so I'll spare everyone. But so the response is what? Only special untrained health influencers on social media can see this toxic stuff.

29:11Jordan Harbinger:Isn't it funny how that works out? The response from the alternative medicine community is usually that doctors don't know what to look for or it's hidden from view. That is just unfalsifiable. It's circular logic. It's just not how evidence works.

29:28Jessica Wynn:So what are people actually seeing come out when they do the cleanses?

29:32Jordan Harbinger:The cleanse itself. So most of these products contain ingredients like psyllium husk, which is a fiber supplement. Yeah, I take that. Yeah, or bentonite clay, which is literally the same stuff in cat litter. And when they mix with water, mucus, and whatever's already in your intestines, they form these long rope-like masses, but all clumps together. And doctors call them casts because they've essentially just taken the shape of the intestine they pass through.

30:02Jessica Wynn:Okay, so people aren't pulling parasites out of their bodies. They're just putting a bunch of Play-Doh mix into their gut, and then it comes out as Play-Doh, and they're like, oh my gosh, look at that, it's a worm.

30:13Jordan Harbinger:It's just psychosomatic. They're just pulling the cleanse back out of their bodies. So you're not removing toxins, you're just expelling that product.

30:21Jessica Wynn:So it's creating the problem and then selling the solution. Pretty good business model there.

30:26Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, remarkably effective. It's this perfect product loop. cleanse, binder, gut reset, repeat, and each one requires the next.

30:35Jessica Wynn:What about, and I already know the answer to this, but what about the argument that Western medicine is hiding this all from us?

30:41Jordan Harbinger:Well, this is where healthy skepticism turns into conspiracy thinking. And part of the reason it works is because medicine has genuinely failed some people. If you've spent years being dismissed, especially as a woman or a person of color, you're being told your symptoms are just stress, anxiety, or it's all in your head, it's not hard to understand why you'd be skeptical of the medical establishment. That distrust is real. The problem is that real distrust doesn't automatically make the alternative explanation true.

31:18Jessica Wynn:So the appeal kind of makes sense, and the wellness industry just steps into the rescue.

31:23Jordan Harbinger:Of course, yeah. And they say, look, your doctor doesn't believe you, but we do. We take your symptoms seriously, and we have answers. And for someone who's been dismissed by multiple doctors or has crummy health insurance, that's incredibly appealing. And the problem is that uncertainty is uncomfortable. So if medicine says, we don't know, and a wellness influencer says, I know exactly what's wrong with you, most people prefer certainty, even when that certainty hasn't been earned.

31:55Jessica Wynn:Yeah, so we're wired to think somebody has to be the hero and somebody has to be the villain. If medicine failed me, then the wellness guru, he must be the good guy.

32:04Jordan Harbinger:Exactly. But reality, it's usually messier than that. Medicine fails people. Doctors can be dismissive. And someone selling cleanses can still be wrong on top of all of that. Those aren't contradictions.

32:18Jessica Wynn:We tend to scrutinize big pharma because they rake in so much money. Then we turn around and trust a guy selling a$300 cleanse on Instagram.

32:25Jordan Harbinger:Right, right. But if these cleanses worked, big pharmaceutical companies would patent the most effective cleanse and be selling them tomorrow, making billions.

32:34Jessica Wynn:That's a good point.

32:35Jordan Harbinger:Yeah. And so there's money on both sides here. The supplement industry is worth billions, too. And a lot of that is from people doing cleanses every month.

32:46Jessica Wynn:Yeah, there's a place near me. I can't remember the name. It's a juice place. And you can go in and get a juice, but their big moneymaker is selling a juice cleanse. And you go in there and you just order the cleanse. And I don't know, it's a couple hundred bucks or whatever. They just give you a case of different juices. And it's all you consume for whatever, however long, seven days or however long this juice cleanse is, which has got to just be absolutely miserable because you're probably starving the whole time. and you're drinking like celery juice every three hours. I don't know.

33:16Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, it's just, you're torturing yourself.

33:19Jessica Wynn:You're torturing yourself. Yeah, you know what? Long time ago, almost 20 years ago, I tried that cleanse where you put, I don't even remember. It's like cayenne pepper, sea salt. Lemon juice. Lemon juice. Yes, that one. And you drink that. Here's all the folklore, because I don't know the real. Your body apparently thinks that it's blood because of the salt. and the whatever. So you immediately have like crazy diarrhea, like for hours. And you drink this every day, no food, and you're washing your gut. And the person who told me to do it, she was like, even three weeks in, there was stuff coming out.

33:58Jessica Wynn:Amazing, unbelievable. That stuff was probably stuck in there for years. And I'm like, I don't know, maybe not. But one of my former business partners, who was a bio major, he was like, hey, Jordan, don't do this. Because I tried it for a day and I was like, this is terrible. He's like, dude, don't do it. It's not good for you. And I was like, why? He goes, all you're doing is starving your gut bacteria, which you need. And for what? So that you can rinse out your intestines, which no doctor says you need to do. And there's no reason to go and do that. And getting a piece of lettuce unstuck inside your gut.

34:27Jessica Wynn:Who cares? What's the point? And it's not how digestion works. So it's like, what's the point of this? Meanwhile, you got to stay home and be on the toilet for weeks at a time, basically. It's just dumb. It doesn't make any sense.

34:38Jordan Harbinger:And you probably come out the other side really tired. and completely dehydrated.

34:43Jessica Wynn:Yes, and also like, are you working out? Because you're not taking in any protein or anything. So I think people like it because it scratches this weird sort of OCD-ish itch where you're like, I've washed the inside of my body, but also you lose 20 pounds because you stopped eating, right? Or 10 pounds or five pounds or whatever.

35:01Jordan Harbinger:And then you gain it back so fast. It's like a garden. We need some dirt in there, yeah.

35:08Jessica Wynn:The cleanse thing is just big money versus big money. and we probably need to be skeptical of both.

35:13Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, I mean, both mainstream medicine and alternative medicine are profit-driven. Both make exaggerated claims. The question isn't who's selling it. It should always be what does the evidence show? So if your doctor dismisses you, ask questions, get a second opinion. If someone is selling supplements or cleanses, ask for peer-reviewed research.

35:37Jessica Wynn:And if they say Western medicine doesn't study this because they're biased and they're hiding the truth. I have a friend like that. Oh, me too. He's like, COVID vax was for this. I'm like, they're hiding cancer cures. And I'm just like, that doesn't even make sense economically.

35:52Jordan Harbinger:But does he get all his info from Instagram?

35:54Jessica Wynn:He gets all of his info from a lot of places like that. But also, this is a guy who told me once, the only credible source of information out there right now is RT, which is Russia Today, which is a Kremlin-sponsored fake news network that is global.

36:08Jordan Harbinger:What is his life like?

36:10Jessica Wynn:it's everything is a conspiracy and I feel bad for him. He sends me studies all the time to read and I'll throw them into an AI and be like, can you summarize this for me? And the AI is basically like, this is a nonsense, widely discredited study that was not allowed to be published in any journal, was published in this seventh tier journal and then retracted because all the data was fake. And I'm like, hey man.

36:30Jordan Harbinger:Yeah. See, they're trying to hide it from you. Yeah. To what end?

36:34Jessica Wynn:And it's like, okay, how come nobody can replicate this? And all of the methodology is nonsense. And it was made by one guy who cited himself. Yeah, it doesn't make sense.

36:43Jordan Harbinger:It's such a red flag, yeah. There are independent researchers worldwide, researchers in countries with nationalized health care, where the pharmaceutical industry has much less influence than here in America. So if something worked consistently, someone would have published rigorous evidence by now.

37:04Jessica Wynn:This is the problem with conspiracies. The other side, the conspiracy perpetrators have to both be flawlessly able to keep a secret among thousands or even millions of people, right? Like the moon landing's fake. So everyone at NASA who was in on this are all in on it.

37:20Jordan Harbinger:All nine moon landings, nine moon landings.

37:23Jessica Wynn:But they're also so incompetent that you can, I don't know, look at the one widely published photo and find a number written on a rock that somehow nobody else noticed. And then that proves that it's a prop. You see this all the time. Oh, the Jews are lizard people. And it's like, OK, but they also have this fatal flaw that's so obvious to even somebody with a second grade education that if you just do this, they can't hurt. It's all dense nonsense like this. And this is the same thing, right? oh, they're hiding it. What about all the other places that don't have big pharma influencing them?

37:55Jordan Harbinger:Oh, they're in on it.

37:56Jessica Wynn:They're in on it and something revenue sharing behind the scenes, something the Illuminati, Epstein files, whatever. And it's like, OK, but they're also so dumb that you can find the cancer cure on a TikTok video because some dude who's a copy machine repair man found it and leaked it.

38:10Jordan Harbinger:He went to repair the copy machine at the Mason Lodge.

38:13Jessica Wynn:And I've told this story years ago on the show. There's a guy in L.A. who used to run a basically a cult, like a coaching cult. His name was Carl. And he would do all these weird coaching exercises, and he had all these celebrities and influencer-type people working with him. And his thing was, he was a copy machine repairman, and somebody at the Pentagon needed a copy machine repaired. So they walked him in there, and the document that was stuck in the copy machine was, I might get this wrong, but basically plans for a military base on the moon that already existed, or diagram of a moon base, secret moon base on the dark side of the moon.

38:52Jessica Wynn:And I'm like, so they just had any random copy machine repair guy with no security clearance come in here, pull out this super duper ridiculously top secret document from the Pentagon, look at it for as long as he wanted, and then just be like, all right, I'm done here.

39:06Jordan Harbinger:That somebody was making a copy of. Yes, that was just photocopying this document.

39:10Jessica Wynn:And he takes a look at it. And they're like, yeah, no worries. See you later, Carl. So that was one of his ridiculous claims. So it's like, okay, so they can build a base on the moon and keep it a secret. But then when the copy machine breaks, they just call this yutz and have him fix it and take a look at everything at his leisure. No.

39:26Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, this is a bad Michael Bay movie or something.

39:29Jessica Wynn:It really is. Yeah. He was a fascinating guy because he was able to manipulate people really well. And I remember my friend had him over to a party and I met him and he was really clever the way he manipulated things. So he tried to convince me of something and I wasn't having it because I'm not a moron. I shouldn't say that, but like I might be a moron, but I will say he tried to convince me of something and he realized really quickly that I was not a believer in his brand of nonsense or whatever. And one of my friends, she had a harp, like a full size harp because she was a harpist or a harp player.

40:01Jessica Wynn:And I was like, can I play this harp or am I going to break it? She's like, no, you can touch it. You couldn't break this thing. Trust me. So I started playing the harp, not well, because I never touched one in my life. And Carl's like, look at the way his fingers go along the strings. And I was just like, okay, you're playing in my ego. And then he was like, ladies, whenever anybody is vibrating like this with a beautiful instrument in the universe, you should be as close to them as you can physically. So he like placed all of these really gorgeous women at the party, basically on my lap and next to me and in front of me.

40:31Jessica Wynn:And they were like, put your hands on his shoulders. And I was like, this is actually a really clever strategy. Because you know, I'm a single guy. I'm not really picking up what you're putting down. But now you're basically communicating, literally get women to go all over you on command. You're going to want to hang out with me. You're going to want to cede power to me. And he did that very consciously and very effectively. And I was like, oh, this dude runs a real cult. This is a real cult.

40:55Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, it probably works on the majority of men.

40:58Jessica Wynn:Yeah. And I will say, even though I knew exactly what was going on, because it's exactly the kind of social dynamics I was really into at the time, I was fascinated by this. And I was like, you're obviously a harmful personality, but man, is it tempting to just be like, you know what? I can lie down with dogs and hang out with these fleas for a little bit. I can avoid getting these fleas because it was just like, whoa, I don't know. I could get used to being a middle rung on this cult ladder with all these ladies around all the time. He really knew what he was doing. But back to gut health, decades of no solid evidence.

41:30Jessica Wynn:That's kind of evidence in some ways.

41:32Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, especially after 40 years or more of these claims. If the mucoid plaque were real, we'd know. And I know that's frustrating for some people, but the answer isn't picking a side and believing everything. It's demanding better evidence from everyone.

41:50Jessica Wynn:So we need to fix the system, not run into the arms of somebody selling expensive, questionable cleanses. What is in the cleanses again? You mentioned something like kitty litter clay and psyllium husk, which is just fiber. But what else is in there?

42:04Jordan Harbinger:Usually it's a mix of laxatives and herbal ingredients marketed as parasite fighters. So things like black walnut, wormwood, clove oil, they're really common ingredients. And they're plants that have traditionally been used against parasites. And some of them do show anti-parasitic activity in studies. The problem is that evidence for these cleanses in actual humans is weak. So some of the products add diatomaceous earth.

42:40Jessica Wynn:Yeah, I've heard of that. That's some kind of anti-bug powder, literally, right?

42:45Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, it's usually food-grade diatomaceous earth that's in the cleanses, not the industrial stuff. But it's made from fossilized microscopic algae, and it is commonly used for insect control.

43:00Jessica Wynn:It kills bugs or it scratches them up somehow.

43:04Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, it damages an insect's hard outer coating and then completely dehydrates them. So the idea in humans is that it will scrape parasites off our gut lining in a similar way. But that's where the theory starts running into problems because insects are dry. Your intestines are not. So critics point out that the mechanism that works on bugs would never survive a wet digestive tract.

43:36Jessica Wynn:Ah, OK. So the wellness pitch is basically, hey, it works great on ants. Let's see what happens. Home Depot at that rate could have a gut health aisle.

43:44Jordan Harbinger:There's a surprising amount of crossover of these ingredients.

43:47Jessica Wynn:That sounds unwise, like aggressively incorrect.

43:50Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, I mean, it can cause dehydration, electrolyte imbalance, and actually irritate your gut more, sometimes creating the very symptoms people are trying to fix. So you irritate your gut, you produce mucus, you expel it, and then interpret that as parasites. So it's this self-fulfilling prophecy.

44:11Jessica Wynn:The gut health industry found a way to monetize bloating, fatigue, and being alive. Capitalism remains undefeated. Speaking of which, we'll be right back. This episode is also sponsored by Progressive. You're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind. Here's a helpful fact you might not know yet. Drivers who save and switch with Progressive save over$900 on average. They make it super simple. Pop over to Progressive.com, answer some questions, and you'll get a quick quote with coverage options tailored to your choices. Plus, you get to see what discounts you qualify for, like the online quote discount or savings for paying in full.

44:45Jessica Wynn:In fact, 99 % of Progressive auto customers earn at least one discount. See if you could save when you switch to Progressive. You'll feel good about making a savvy choice. Visit Progressive.com and see if you can enjoy a little extra cash back. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company & Affiliates. National average 12-month savings of$946. Buy new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2024 and May 2025. Potential savings will vary. This episode is also sponsored by FlyKit. We're tired on a normal day, add in a 13-hour flight, a 13-hour time change, and two kids who don't care what time zone we're in.

45:17Jessica Wynn:And jet lag is not just annoying, it's an emergency. That's why we're packing FlyKit. It's a kit plus an app that creates a personalized jet lag schedule for your trip, when to take the supplements, when to wear blue light blockers, when to get light, when to caffeinate, when to nap, all to give you the best shot at beating jet lag. I was very skeptical, to say the least, when I first heard about this years ago. But after dozens of international trips, I don't travel without it ever. You enter your travel details. FlyKit maps out exactly what to do and when. It's based on research with, of course, Navy SEALs, fighter pilots, and athletes, but hey, also with podcasters that are old and get tired when they travel.

45:51Jessica Wynn:Anyway, it helps a lot with jet lag and the inflammation that flying can cause. I've used it on brutal time zone trips, and it works every time. Go to flykitwith2ts.com. Use code Jordan for 15 % off, and let me know how it works for you. Come join us on our subreddit, the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. You can interact with show fans, me and Gabriel are in there. You can talk about the show, get some dank memes, joke around a little bit, get to know other show fans. It's kind of a fun time in there, most of the time anyway. That's the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. Now, back to Skeptical Sunday. So cleanse, damage, panic, buy repair supplements.

46:26Jordan Harbinger:That's the model. It's really effective marketing. You see something alarming in the toilet, you think, oh my God, it worked. I did have parasites. And then you tell everyone you know to do that cleanse.

46:39Jessica Wynn:Okay. So when should somebody actually worry about parasites?

46:43Jordan Harbinger:If you have chronic unexplained GI symptoms, certain occupational exposures, like if you work with animals or in agriculture, there's a slightly higher risk. But for the average person with access to clean water and normal food. Like I said, parasites are just so unlikely. And if you think you have parasites? See a doctor. Stool tests do exist. Treatment exists. It's not mysterious. And if you do have them, there are real anti-parasitic medications that work.

47:21Jessica Wynn:Okay. So not a$300 cleanse kit from social media, from TikTok.

47:25Jordan Harbinger:No, and the same goes for H. pylori, which is this really hot topic in gut health right now.

47:32Jessica Wynn:What is H. pylori? Never heard of this.

47:34Jordan Harbinger:So H. pylori is a bacteria. It's not a parasite. And about half the world carries it. So most people have no symptoms. It can cause stomach ulcers, but we can test for it and treat it. There is no cleanse required.

47:50Jessica Wynn:Oh, so real problems have real medical tests and real medical treatments. Go figure.

47:55Jordan Harbinger:I mean, that's exactly right. But that's boring and it doesn't sell cleanses.

47:59Jessica Wynn:Does this mean the hygiene hypothesis is false? That's another argument I hear people make. We're too clean. We lost all of our good parasites.

48:07Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, there's actually some interesting research there. So the hygiene hypothesis suggests that reduced exposure to microbes and parasites in childhood may contribute to allergies and autoimmune diseases. Farm kids, for example, have lower asthma rates than city kids.

48:26Jessica Wynn:Yeah, that's great news for how I grew up because we had a little house up north, like a cottage. And I went there a lot as a little kid. And my mom tells this story like, oh, you used to play with goose turds and frogs would be running all over you. I'd put like a frog in my mouth and be like, look, there's a frog in my mouth. Yeah. So I didn't get parasites through that. Holy smokes. I must be immune.

48:49Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, we're tougher than we think.

48:50Jessica Wynn:So everybody go get some parasites.

48:52Jordan Harbinger:Don't listen. That is terrible advice, actually. Understanding evolutionary biology is not the same as self-infecting. So the risks of malnutrition, anemia, or organ damage from intentionally consuming bacteria far outweigh any theoretical benefits. So don't make yourself do it. But as a kid, that's normal exposure.

49:16Jessica Wynn:So no medical tapeworms. Got it. When I was in law school, I remember one of my friends who was a girl was like, I'm going to ingest a tapeworm. We were just kidding. But we were joking like, hey, we should just ingest a tapeworm and then we can't eat as much as we want. But bad idea for the record.

49:29Jordan Harbinger:Yeah. Did she do it?

49:31Jessica Wynn:No, no, no. We were just joking around because we ate too much because we're all stressed out. And we had the all you can eat breakfast, lunch and dinner at the school. And so are there certain foods I should eliminate? I've heard just about everything is bad for my gut health. gluten, dairy, sugar, anything that brings you joy, don't eat. Right.

49:50Jordan Harbinger:There are cases where eliminating foods is necessary for health. True food allergies like peanuts or shellfish, those are real immediate immune responses and they can be life-threatening. So people can go into anaphylaxis.

50:05Jessica Wynn:Those are clearly real. When you see someone swell up like, what is it, the nutty professor on a flight because of the peanuts and they can't breathe. That's scary.

50:15Jordan Harbinger:I was just a couple of weeks ago sitting with a friend and he was eating guava and half hour later I was in the emergency room with him. He had no idea he was allergic. It was really crazy.

50:27Jessica Wynn:I didn't even know. Well, I guess you could be allergic to anything. And he didn't know clearly.

50:31Jordan Harbinger:I don't know. We like walked through a farmer's market and it was just this, yeah, what? I never e-guava, so who knew? But yeah, so things like that happen. And then there's food intolerances. They're not an immune response. That's a digestive issue like lactose intolerance. That's uncomfortable, but it's not dangerous. And then there's celiac disease, which is an autoimmune reaction to gluten. And about only 1 % of the population actually has it. And it requires strict elimination of gluten. And that one is so overblown. So many people like to say they're gluten-free, but if you really have celiac, I know a guy who's in a band, he's a singer, he has celiac.

51:16Jordan Harbinger:His band went on and he shared a microphone with the previous singer who had just been drinking beer and he had a severe reaction just from sharing the microphone. Like that's serious celiac.

51:30Jessica Wynn:That's like those peanut allergies where they're like, don't even open the peanuts on the plane because the smell or whatever. That's insane.

51:37Jordan Harbinger:Yeah. So it's only 1 % of the population actually has true gluten intolerance. But then there's the murky category of food sensitivities. They're often self-diagnosed or based on non-validated tests. Sometimes it's just a fad thing to have.

51:57Jessica Wynn:Yeah. Those are the tests where they prick your finger and they test your blood against 200 different foods, right? Eggs and asparagus or whatever, everything.

52:04Jordan Harbinger:Yeah. And those food sensitivity tests, they're not scientifically validated. They test for the common antibody, which is the IgG. And the presence of IgG antibodies to a food, they just show you've eaten it, not what you're sensitive to. So you can have IgG antibodies to foods you eat all the time with no problems.

52:28Jessica Wynn:Oh, so people are eliminating food based on bad tests.

52:32Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, a lot of times, yes. Elimination diets, they can be useful, but they're meant to be temporary and systematic. What's happening now is people are cutting out huge categories of food indefinitely, and they're creating deficiencies and anxieties and disordered eating based on internet advice.

52:53Jessica Wynn:Yeah, my buddy had a girlfriend a long time ago and she was like, I'm celiac. And so every time we'd go out, she'd be like, does this soy sauce have it? We gotta get it without soy sauce. And it's like, we're at a Thai restaurant. You can't eat any of the sauces. This is gonna be a problem. And I remember being like, you gotta get this under control. You can't live with this mentally ill person who's gonna dictate what everybody can eat. And he's like, I know, this is one of the last straws. I don't know how much I can deal with this. It turned out that she actually really was. And I felt bad about that because I was like, oh, this nonsense.

53:23Jessica Wynn:Like, I can't deal with your self-diagnosed TikTok digestive issue right now. Like, I want to live my life. I don't want to spend 20 minutes talking to the server. They already hate us. But I felt bad for her and I felt guilty about that because for everyone who is really celiac and can't eat anything and is dealing with real problems, there's a hundred. I read a blog on the Bulletproof diet thing and now I can't eat the following 600 things. And so, oh my God, how bulletproof are you when you smell gluten and you inflate and you can't eat for three days? I don't know.

53:53Jordan Harbinger:Gets into our heads.

53:54Jessica Wynn:It does. That's the whole orthorexia spiral, right? Heal your gut turns into be afraid of all kinds of foods.

54:00Jordan Harbinger:Exactly. Orthorexia is an obsession with eating clean foods to the point that it just becomes psychologically and physically harmful. And a lot of gut health messaging feeds into this idea that the more foods you eliminate, the healthier you are.

54:18Jessica Wynn:Which ends with somebody eating five different things and then side-eyeing blueberries or whatever. It can't, yeah.

54:25Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, it's a fear of food. And people convince themselves everything is damaging their gut. That's not gut health, right? That's fear. And sometimes it's an eating disorder.

54:36Jessica Wynn:But it is confusing because some foods do really mess people up.

54:41Jordan Harbinger:Of course they do. And this is where nuance matters. So take the low FODMAP diet. FODMAP stands for a lot of difficult to pronounce words.

54:53Jessica Wynn:Yeah, fermentable oligosaccharides, disaccharides, monosaccharides, and polyols. I don't know. I've never heard of any of this.

55:02Jordan Harbinger:What Jordan said, yeah. Yes. Okay. But it's a diet that's designed for people with IBS. So certain foods like onions, garlic, beans, wheat and some fruits, they can be really difficult for people to digest, and they can trigger bloating and pain or other symptoms.

55:20Jessica Wynn:IBS, I think we defined it earlier, but irritable bowel syndrome. So it just causes tons of gut inflammation and discomfort. Okay, so you just have to give up a bunch of foods forever?

55:30Jordan Harbinger:That's the confusion. So a low FODMAP diet, it's not supposed to be forever. It's more like an investigation. You temporarily remove certain foods, then systematically add them back into your diet to figure out which ones are actually causing problems for you.

55:48Jessica Wynn:God, that sounds like such a pain in the ass. Nice. Yeah, accidental.

55:54Jordan Harbinger:The reintroduction phase of the diet is really confusing for people. So they just stop eating foods without ever figuring out what the actual trigger is. And that's not the protocol. The goal isn't to eat fewer foods forever. The goal is to identify the foods you personally have trouble with and get as much variety into your diet as possible.

56:17Jessica Wynn:But every week I read about another food to be terrified of because it's secretly poisoning you. Today, they were like, there's lead in boba pearls for bubble tea. I'm like, oh my God. Great. I don't know, lead is in the cassava farm and then it absorbs. I don't know. I keep reading that lectins are also destroying our guts, that beans are trying to assassinate me.

56:39Jordan Harbinger:The lectin thing is big in gut health conversations. So lectins are proteins found in many plants, but especially beans, grains, and legumes. And in very large amounts, raw lectins can be harmful.

56:56Jessica Wynn:Do people eat very large amounts of raw beans and grains? Because when I was a kid, I used to play with bean bags in the gym class, and sometimes they'd explode and this rock-hard bean would come out. Who's eating that?

57:06Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, who's sucking on that? I mean, we cook all of that, but there are ways people are doing it. So I had a friend, and she had one of those cool containers on her kitchen that she kept her spaghetti in or whatever, you know, like those glass containers that sit on the counter. And she got into this habit of just taking single pieces of spaghetti and chewing on it like straw or whatever, but she was eating them and mindlessly, like as a habit, when she was in the kitchen, she ended up developing thrush, which is like a yeast infection in your mouth. She just got addicted to it. She was eating so much raw pasta that in her mouth and throat was really gross.

57:47Jessica Wynn:Gnarly. Yeah, that sounds really gross.

57:49Jordan Harbinger:Horribly embarrassing. But they figured it out pretty quick. There was no getting around it. Are you eating raw grains? Yeah. Yeah.

57:59Jessica Wynn:Your lips are really chapped, even though it's May and you live in L.A. Yeah, I have a yeast infection in my mouth. What have you been doing?

58:06Jordan Harbinger:People aren't going to believe the spaghetti. Oh, I eat raw

58:09Jessica Wynn:spaghetti. OK.

58:10Jordan Harbinger:Yeah. But so when we cook beans and grains and things that denatures the lectins. So cooked beans, lentils, whole grains, they're fine for most people. There's no evidence that lectins in normal cooked foods are causing gut damage.

58:28Jessica Wynn:So real thing, but widely overblown.

58:31Jordan Harbinger:Again, very rare, but there are books and supplement lines built around avoiding lectins. So the misinformation persists.

58:42Jessica Wynn:Yeah, this is all that Dr. Gundry stuff, right? He's like, oh, if you eat this, it's really bad for you. And it exaggerates everything and then magically sells the cure. OK, so is there any universal list of foods that everyone should avoid?

58:56Jordan Harbinger:No, not universally. Unless you have a diagnosed allergy or medical condition, most people can eat gluten and dairy and lectins and nightshades like tomatoes, potatoes, peppers, whatever, without any issue. The problem is that the wellness industry convinces people that normal whole foods are dangerous and we need to be cleansing all the time.

59:21Jessica Wynn:And there are all kinds of microbiome testing kits, everyone's favorite thing, mailing poop to a stranger. Are they science or extremely confident poop fortune telling, like fecal astrology?

59:34Jordan Harbinger:Fecal astrology, I like it. The sequencing of those tests is real, but the interpretation is the problem. So here's the thing. We don't actually know what an ideal microbiome looks like because they're all different. Like I said earlier, that would be like saying what an ideal fingerprint looks like. But healthy people vary wildly on diet, geography, genetics, and just lifestyle. So a report that says low bacteroids, whatever, all of that sounds clinical, but what it means for you specifically or how to fix it, it usually isn't known.

1:00:12Jessica Wynn:So what are they basing their recommendations on? What are you paying for?

1:00:16Jordan Harbinger:For some information and very generic advice, like eat more fiber and vegetables and fermented foods and exercise more.

1:00:25Jessica Wynn:OK, so a$300 reminder to be an adult.

1:00:28Jordan Harbinger:Pretty much.

1:00:29Jessica Wynn:Not a total scam, but I don't need to FedEx my feces to know that I should eat my vegetables.

1:00:34Jordan Harbinger:You know deep in your gut that you need to eat more vegetables. I do. But the testing is real. But the actionable value, that's just really limited. It's mostly curiosity. I guess maybe the thrill of mailing shit. I don't know.

1:00:48Jessica Wynn:Yeah, shipping your shite is fun. $300 curiosity.

1:00:52Jordan Harbinger:There's an ex-boyfriend's revenge website, and you can ship them various animals. Poop.

1:01:00Jessica Wynn:Animals. Okay, because I was going to say, whose poop are you shipping?

1:01:03Jordan Harbinger:Not human poop. Yeah, like cow poop to somebody.

1:01:06Jessica Wynn:Oh, my goodness. Okay, gotcha. So if somebody's trying to sell me a microbiome test, just pass. Another pun.

1:01:13Jordan Harbinger:Hey, yeah, just definitely save your money. Yeah, and buy vegetables.

1:01:18Jessica Wynn:But why do I keep seeing headlines like scientists discover gut bacteria causes depression or microbiome linked to autism and then nothing about it ever again?

1:01:28Jordan Harbinger:Because a lot of these microbiome findings don't replicate. One study finds an association, the next study doesn't. There's often really small sample sizes and inconsistent methods, and that just makes for different results. So if you test thousands of microbes against dozens of outcomes, by chance alone, you'll get significant hits.

1:01:52Jessica Wynn:So the science is confused?

1:01:54Jordan Harbinger:I wouldn't say confused, but the science is early. And microbiome research is messy, right? And the exciting findings get published. The we-couldn't-replicate-this studies, they don't go viral.

1:02:10Jessica Wynn:Yeah, good old publication bias.

1:02:12Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, exactly, which is, as we know, quite common. And then there's the rodent study problem.

1:02:17Jessica Wynn:Which is what?

1:02:19Jordan Harbinger:So a lot of microbiome research is done in mice or rats because it's easier to control their environment and manipulate their bacteria. But mice aren't humans. Findings in rodents are interesting. They often just don't translate to what's happening inside the human body.

1:02:37Jessica Wynn:I see. So we need human studies. Are those happening?

1:02:41Jordan Harbinger:They are, but human studies are really hard. People eat different things. They live in different environments. They have different genetics, different stress levels. There's just so many variables.

1:02:52Jessica Wynn:So we're in the early days of figuring this out.

1:02:54Jordan Harbinger:Very much the early days. And then we have things that are being developed like smart toilets, which are emerging. And they use sensors and AI and cameras to analyze waste for disease markers and then send data to apps for personalized health tracking.

1:03:14Jessica Wynn:That is just what everyone wants. Another device collecting very personal data. My toilet is going to have more information about me than my doctor because I'm definitely getting that, by the way. That sounds awesome.

1:03:25Jordan Harbinger:It sounds so cool. I know. I want it. I want it. Wow.

1:03:28Jessica Wynn:So who's getting that information? Because every tech company in history has looked at personal data and basically thought immediately, how can I monetize this?

1:03:36Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, that's one of the big unanswered questions. The technology itself is interesting, though. An early detection of disease could be incredibly valuable.

1:03:46Jessica Wynn:Yeah. How are we going to capitalize on this caca? Right. I guess big tech knows we all use our phones on the toilets, but they might want to know what's happening in the toilet. But I don't know if I'm emotionally prepared for a future where my toilet has a terms of service agreement.

1:04:00Jordan Harbinger:Oh, my God. Neither am I. I mean, it's certainly raising some privacy questions, but we're taking early complicated science and turning it into simple, definitive answers. So technology is advancing faster than our understanding of what to do with all this information. And it's so frustrating to see supplement companies making definitive claims based on preliminary research.

1:04:24Jessica Wynn:OK, so what do we actually know about the gut-brain connection?

1:04:28Jordan Harbinger:The strongest evidence is the connection between IBS and mental health. So IBS is what's called a functional gastrointestinal disorder. And people can have symptoms like pain, bloating, diarrhea, or constipation. But when doctors look for structural damage or disease, they often don't find any. And it's surprisingly common. Like roughly one in 10 people have IBS. and about 30 to 40 percent of people have functional bowel problems at some point.

1:05:00Jessica Wynn:Wow. Okay. So if I'm having diarrhea every day, I'm not sure functional is the word that comes to mind, but there's got to be people like that.

1:05:08Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, you know, and for decades, a lot of patients were basically told you're just anxious or it's all stress. And it was often really dismissive, especially toward women.

1:05:19Jessica Wynn:Oh, calm down, Jessica.

1:05:21Jordan Harbinger:Right, right. Hey, I don't have it. I mean, the problem is they weren't taking symptoms seriously. But weirdly, they may have been brushing up against a real connection for the wrong reasons. So because we're learning that the gut and brain are constantly communicating, an irritated gut signals the brain that it doesn't feel good, and that contributes to anxiety, depression, and stress levels. So the symptoms weren't imaginary, and they weren't just anxiety.

1:05:53Jessica Wynn:So it's the stomach aches that make people anxious, not the other way around?

1:05:58Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, in many cases, yes, which is why treating IBS works best when you treat both ends of the axis. So this is a huge shift in understanding. And interestingly, some of the treatments that work best for IBS are psychiatric medications and psychological therapies.

1:06:17Jessica Wynn:Wait, so antidepressants are prescribed for IBS. Wow.

1:06:21Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, sometimes, but not because it's all in their head, because antidepressants affect serotonin and pain signaling lives in the gut, too. So therapies like CBT and gut-directed hypnotherapy, they can help by changing the gut-brain communication loop.

1:06:39Jessica Wynn:I see. So you're treating your second brain's headache.

1:06:43Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, pretty much. And treatment doesn't make people less anxious necessarily, but improves the communication between the gut and the brain. So we're still learning how the gut and brain are so interconnected, but we do know you can't treat one without considering the other.

1:07:00Jessica Wynn:Nothing says personalized medicine like mailing your literal poop to a startup and just hoping that it emails you back. More after this.

1:07:10Jordan Harbinger:What's up, y 'all?

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1:08:15Jessica Wynn:Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now for the rest of Skeptical Sunday. Medicines are tricky because often they treat things while also messing up your gut. Antibiotics are said to destroy your microbiome like we said before. So is that true?

1:08:31Jordan Harbinger:I mean, antibiotics do reduce bacterial diversity. That is true. But if you need antibiotics, take them. They save lives. Your gut will recover. So repeated courses of antibiotics or other health issues, they can have longer-lasting effects. But for most people, the microbiome is remarkably resilient. And take comfort in knowing that every five to seven days, the intestine regenerates its lining. And every three to five days, the surface layer of the stomach and small intestine that face the acid, that's replaced. So it's not like the entire lining, but deeper glandular cells live up to 54 days.

1:09:16Jordan Harbinger:So just know the gut is constantly renewing itself.

1:09:20Jessica Wynn:Every three to five days, that almost seems excessive.

1:09:22Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, well, the rapid turnover is a defense mechanism. So the stomach produces strong hydrochloric acid and enzymes that break down foods, but that can easily damage tissue. So constant renewal is necessary to prevent ulcers or even self-digestion.

1:09:41Jessica Wynn:Are you saying my stomach can eat me?

1:09:44Jordan Harbinger:I mean, under the wrong circumstances, stomach acid can absolutely damage tissue.

1:09:50Jessica Wynn:What about resistance to antibiotics? Should you be worried about that as well? I know that's a different Skeptical Sunday, probably.

1:09:56Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, I mean, that's a different issue. It's a serious one. But overuse of antibiotics is contributing to antibiotic-resistant bacteria, which is a public health crisis. But the solution isn't to avoid antibiotics when you need them, but when they're necessary, take the full course as prescribed. Or you could give yourself all kinds of avoidable issues. So you don't want to have to have a fecal transplant.

1:10:22Jessica Wynn:Jeez, yeah. Fecal transplant, come on. Is this the most logical microbiome intervention or the most absurd sounding one? I don't know. It sounds horrifying.

1:10:31Jordan Harbinger:Yeah. Fecal microbiota transplantation or FMT or poop transplants, they're real medicine. It's for a condition called C. diff, and it's actually incredibly effective.

1:10:45Jessica Wynn:What is C. diff? Because it sounds like a SoundCloud rapper. That's what I think when I hear C-diff.

1:10:52Jordan Harbinger:C-diff's album just dropped. That's right. That's right. Yeah. It's there's a joke there about dropped. Yeah.

1:10:59Jessica Wynn:Just dropped in your smart toilet.

1:11:01Jordan Harbinger:C-diff is unpleasant. It typically occurs after antibiotic use or abuse, but it's a bacterium that causes severe diarrhea, fever, nausea, abdominal pain by inflaming the colon. It's also highly contagious. So look out.

1:11:20Jessica Wynn:Okay. And the cure is somebody else's bacteria ridden turds shoved into your turd compartment manually.

1:11:30Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, you're not wrong. But if it's a healthy microbial community, yes, that is pretty much what happens. Okay. They take a stool from a healthy donor. This is serious, Jordan.

1:11:42Jessica Wynn:I know, but I'm still going to laugh because it's ridiculous and I'm 12 years old. Okay.

1:11:47Jordan Harbinger:They take a stool from a healthy donor, process it, and transplant it into a patient's colon. So the goal is to restore a healthy, diverse microbiome. And FMT has about an 80 to 90 % cure rate for recurrent C. diff. It's been a game changer for patients who have recurrent infections.

1:12:10Jessica Wynn:I'm so curious about the mechanics of this I gotta look it up because

1:12:13Jordan Harbinger:don't look no don't google it don't look it up okay yeah speaking of algorithm going insane

1:12:18Jessica Wynn:because I'm like how do they get it in there where how high up are they placing it and then is it like hey try not to poop for three days because it's got to do its thing don't let it just come out in an hour are they making you hold it and then you want to know the person

1:12:31Jordan Harbinger:who's yeah I don't think I do I don't know I don't want any part of this hopefully I never

1:12:36Jessica Wynn:need it.

1:12:36Jordan Harbinger:I could never look you in the eye again.

1:12:38Jessica Wynn:That's right. Yeah. Gosh. Does it treat any other conditions? Because I'm just dying for an excuse to get this done now. Of course. Just for shits and giggles, if you will.

1:12:49Jordan Harbinger:That's where it gets into experimental territory. So there's research on FMT for ulcerative colitis. And there's some promising results there. But it's just being explored for other conditions like IBS, obesity, autism, depression. Yeah, all kinds of things. The results are mixed, but people are doing it anyway. And I...

1:13:12Jessica Wynn:Wait a minute. People are DIYing poop transplants? No.

1:13:16Jordan Harbinger:Yeah. Yeah, they are. That is a fact. And it's really dangerous. So you can buy... I don't recommend this, but I'm just stating a fact. You can buy DIY FMT kits online. And some people are doing this at home with stool from family members or friends. Oh my God.

1:13:38Jessica Wynn:That just seems like a terrible idea. Imagine that house party, by the way, guys. Like, hey, guys, everyone come over on Friday night. I have a great idea. You're going to love it. Remember Tom's Tupperware party? It's Kind of like that. I've never been that close to anybody. Oh, man. You're going to need Tupperware, but it's not quite the same thing. Oh, God. Gross.

1:14:00Jordan Harbinger:It's just such a terrible idea. But FMT, I mean, it obviously could transmit infections. People have actually died from contaminated FMT home kits.

1:14:12Jessica Wynn:No. Oh, man. Imagine explaining that.

1:14:15Jordan Harbinger:Yeah. That's, yeah. When you get to the pearly gates, not what you want to be known for. But medical FMT uses screen donors. Random poop from your cousin at your house party is not screened.

1:14:29Jessica Wynn:Poop smoothie in the bum. Do not do that. Oh my god. Poop smoothie.

1:14:34Jordan Harbinger:Oh no. Stop. Oh god.

1:14:37Jessica Wynn:But the fact that FMT works for C. diff shows that the microbiome really does matter.

1:14:42Jordan Harbinger:Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. But it also shows that we need rigorous testing before we apply it to every condition.

1:14:50Jessica Wynn:One thing that's bothering me is if we treat the gut as the answer to mental health, doesn't that kind of let society off the hook all over the place? I mean, you got poverty, you got trauma, inequality, addiction issues, all kinds of untreated actual mental health that people would need something a little bit more serious intervention for. And it's kind of like, oh no it's just your gut biome i don't know it seems like it's too simple of a solution

1:15:13Jordan Harbinger:i mean i'm sure it could be misused or whatever but the fact is the gut brain connection is real but it's not the only connection right so mental health it's not just biology it's also those things housing safety work discrimination community all of those things yeah you can't probiotic your

1:15:35Jessica Wynn:way out of structural inequality if that's causing you problems.

1:15:39Jordan Harbinger:And the market to fix your gut, fix your brain, can be a distraction from fixing conditions making people sick in the first place.

1:15:48Jessica Wynn:So the gut health industry is reductionist, and the advice is always the same. Eat better, sleep, manage stress, all things which are much easier when you have a little bit of money.

1:15:57Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, it's very reductionist. It reduces complex societal problems to a simple biological explanation, your gut bacteria, then it sells you a simple biological solution, supplements. But life's not that simple. So fresh produce is expensive. Fermented foods are expensive. Managing stress is hard when you're working multiple jobs. Sleep is hard in unstable housing. So the wellness industry steps in and says, can't afford real change? Take this expensive supplement. That's not health. That's a subscription model.

1:16:32Jessica Wynn:And often the people who need help the most can afford it the least, I would imagine.

1:16:37Jordan Harbinger:Yeah. And the real solutions like food access, health care, working conditions, affordable housing, all of this, those don't get attention because they're not profitable.

1:16:47Jessica Wynn:Right. OK. So what should you actually do? What can you control?

1:16:52Jordan Harbinger:Keep it boring and evidence-based. Eat lots of real, whole foods. Diversity is shown to matter. It's easier than it sounds. A variety of herbs, spices, different beans, different greens, that all counts. Don't eat the same thing every day, like the same five foods forever. Throw in some fermented foods you like, throw in some fiber, and understand that real, whole foods beat expensive supplements.

1:17:20Jessica Wynn:And pay attention to how foods make you feel, I suppose. I know a lot of people can't do too much fiber, etc.

1:17:25Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, right. I mean, there's conditions like SIBO and IBS where fiber can worsen your symptoms. But you're right. Listen to your body. If something consistently makes you feel bad, don't force it. The hardest practice for a healthy gut is stress management. The gut-brain axis works both ways, and chronic stress affects your gut. So mind-body interventions like meditation, yoga, deep breathing, different kinds of therapy, they can actually help gut symptoms. So the relaxation response has been shown to help IBS symptoms. CBT and hypnotherapy work for some people. I've just read a study about sticking your tongue out for 40 seconds every morning can help with inflammation.

1:18:14Jessica Wynn:That was a study? Because that sounds completely fake.

1:18:18Jordan Harbinger:It was a very small study.

1:18:21Jessica Wynn:Yeah.

1:18:22Jordan Harbinger:I was just reading all this stuff, preparing before we talked, and it was just something that stuck out in my mind. Like, what if there is something as simple as sticking your tongue out, or is it just sitting and breathing for 40 seconds that's actually helping? But regardless, your mental state affects your gut state, too.

1:18:42Jessica Wynn:Sure. Okay. Okay, so does working out affect my gut? That's the best thing I can do for my mental health.

1:18:47Jordan Harbinger:Oh, big time. Movement and exercise, that's shown to increase microbial diversity. You don't need to be an athlete. Regular walking counts and understand changes take time. So what works for someone else might not work for you. You can't optimize your way to perfection. So your microbiome, it doesn't need to be fixed. It's not broken.

1:19:11Jessica Wynn:So it's basically eat real food, manage stress, sleep and move. The least sexiest advice possible.

1:19:19Jordan Harbinger:Right. Which why it doesn't sell supplements, but it's what the evidence supports. But if you have persistent GI symptoms, we're talking three months or more, especially if they're affecting your quality of life. If you see blood in your stool, if you have unintended weight loss or severe pains, don't just take supplements and hope it goes away.

1:19:40Jessica Wynn:Yeah, you go to the urgent care, you guys. No, don't go to TikTok.

1:19:44Jordan Harbinger:So many people are doing that now, though. And anyone selling a cure for leaky gut or parasite cleanses without medical testing or selling those expensive microbiome testing kits or the supplements claiming to fix your gut-brain axis or telling you to avoid entire food groups without medical diagnosis, that is all red flags.

1:20:08Jessica Wynn:Anyone who diagnosed you via the internet.

1:20:10Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, correct.

1:20:11Jessica Wynn:So where is this field going? What is the future here?

1:20:14Jordan Harbinger:Well, I think the future of medicine will involve much more integration between gastroenterology and psychiatry. So we're already seeing it. Gastroenterologists prescribing antidepressants, psychiatrists asking about gut symptoms, the artificial separation between mental health and gut health, that's breaking down. And that's a really good thing.

1:20:37Jessica Wynn:Because they're undeniably connected. That's crazy.

1:20:40Jordan Harbinger:Undeniably, yeah. But the research is in its infancy. So we have to be patient and look at any new findings critically. I think we'll develop more targeted microbiome-based therapies, not generic probiotics, but specific bacterial strains or bacterial products for specific conditions that have real clinical trial data.

1:21:03Jessica Wynn:Ooh, designer bacteria. So forget the Gucci bag. I want that Gucci bacteria spring collection. Gross.

1:21:11Jordan Harbinger:It does worry me, though, saying that treatments won't be affordable. Will they work is the main question. But when they do, who gets access?

1:21:21Jessica Wynn:Look out for gut insurance. We'll end up with expensive microbiome-based therapies that most people can't afford, at least at first. While the cheap supplements that don't actually work continue to dominate the market.

1:21:32Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, that's the American healthcare system in a nutshell, unfortunately. But you're an ecosystem. You're not a machine. Your gut microbiome is complex and interconnected. But I swear most of you are probably fine.

1:21:48Jessica Wynn:Yeah, wow. If you have real genuine gut problems, talk to a real gastroenterologist. If somebody's trying to sell you a cleanse or a supplement or a testing kit, ask them for the peer-reviewed evidence. Meanwhile, go eat some vegetables and maybe some yogurt. the regular kind, not the$15 probiotic one, unless you happen to prefer that for some reason. Thanks, Jess, for helping us cut through the crap on this about the gut biome. And thanks to you all for listening. Topic suggestions for future episodes of Skeptical Sunday to Jordan at jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals.

1:22:24Jessica Wynn:I'm at jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also hit me on LinkedIn. You can find Jessica on her sub stacks between the lines and where shadows linger. We'll link to those in the show notes. Her work is on Instagram at nevermetjessicas. And they want you to send graphic photos of the any FMTs, at-home FMTs that you guys do.

1:22:43Jordan Harbinger:I cannot wait for my DMs. That's right.

1:22:46Jessica Wynn:That's right. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Tata Sidlowskis, Robert Fogerty, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer, and I'm definitely not a doctor. Also, we of course try to get these as right as we can. Not everything is gospel, even when it's fact-checked. So consult a qualified professional before applying anything you hear on the show, especially if it's about your health and well-being. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love.

1:23:16Jessica Wynn:And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use a good dose of the skepticism and knowledge that we doled out today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. chess isn't just a game you're about to hear a preview where danny wrench shares how building chess.com put him face to face with cheaters death threats and a past he had to rewrite to survive i was born into a cult as i talked about it more and more i've gotten better at just saying that naming it for what it was the collective itself was called the church of immoral consciousness my generation within a couple years was part of the first group of kids that were being born into the collective, which again, at that point, it was full communism.

1:23:59Jessica Wynn:People's finances are merged. When you came to the collective, you gave up all of your material belongings. You just sort of look at it and go, this was fucked up. This was not okay. There is no excuse to be made for this. And then Western media was paying attention to chess for the first time, maybe since Bobby Fisher in the seventies. This movie had come out and these two kids trapped in a cult were basically under house arrest and didn't have anything else to do. And anything that Stephen Camp was fond of, everybody was into, right? He was literally in charge of every human being in the collective.

1:24:30Jessica Wynn:I went from zero to being one of the top kids in the country. Within two years, I was already an All-American. I was one of the top rated players. And I've worked very hard to heal my relationship with my own abusers, not because I'm trying to excuse their behavior, but because I really do believe that forgiveness is not rewriting the past. It's freeing yourself from it. And so with chess.com, accidental success 15 years later. So we have 25 million games a day, 623 games finishing every second. You can have a different relationship with your experiences if you want to. The obstacle can be the way and you can overcome hard shit.

1:25:07Jessica Wynn:That was my goal with this. To hear the story of how Danny Wrench got on the hit list, check out episode 1289 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.

1:25:43Jessica Wynn:www.tile.com jameshardy.com slash hardybacker. Queen Carvania stood haloed by the morning sun. An army hung on her every word.

1:25:57Jordan Harbinger:My champions! I have sold my chariot on Carvana!

1:26:02Jessica Wynn:T 'was a lovely SUV, an inexplicably queenly offer. They're even coming to the castle to collect it!

1:26:10Jordan Harbinger:Tonight, we feast! An offer you can feast on. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply.