829: Sportswashing | Skeptical Sunday

23:54But the vast majority, no one knows what's really become of them. I assume they were, hopefully they were returned home safe and sound. That's really, really crazy. Wow. So that my friend is sports watching 101. I presume Qatar is not the only nation to garner influence through sports. I know we're picking on Qatar here. Yeah, yeah, far from it. It's actually fascinating how something as simple as a bunch of athletes kicking or throwing a ball around can have real effects on the world stage. Russia's long-reigning president Vladimir Putin has always been acutely aware of the power of sports. Russia hosted the 2014 Olympics as a show of strength to the world, but was later found to have doped more than 100 of its athletes.

24:32Okay, but here's what I'm wondering. To put in this much time and energy, it costs hundreds of millions to put on global sports events. Is there any evidence that sports washing works long-term outside of the Qatar example? Are these countries more profitable afterwards? Are they happier people? Are they more successful in other ways? I think it's just too abstract to really be measured, but it can certainly embolden tyrants. That's one thing we know. As the Sochi Russia Olympics came to a close in February 2014, Russian troops were already capturing Crimea. Oh, wow. The Berlin Games in 1936 were an international advertisement for Hitler's Germany.

25:10Like Putin after news broke of Russia's doping scandal, Hitler was left red-faced when African-American Jesse Owens won four gold medals and embarrassed the Fuhrer. But still, just three years later, he invaded Poland and started World War II. Going back to that soccer-owning mafia FIFA, we may talk about Qatar and Russia as the bad guys, but FIFA have a long history of allowing and even encouraging sports washing. They allowed the World Cup to take place in Argentina in 1978, basically to enable dictator Jorge Virela to hide the horrors of his cruel regime from the world and from the country's own people.

25:46He didn't even like soccer, but he knew the Argentine people really did. So while the country was under martial law and curfew with inflation rates at 300%. And while random citizens were picked up and thrown into the ocean from helicopters, while your neighbours, family members and friends were disappearing at an alarming rate never to be seen again, the country hosted a soccer tournament for the world. We talk of sports washing. The military junta actually hired an American PR firm to clean up their image during the cup. And it did work because they managed to convince many of their own people, that the clamors for boycott from around the world were anti-Argentine.

26:24It was an anti-Argentine sentiment, and that fostered support for the dictatorship. Oh, this is insane. That's right. Henry Kissinger turns up, praises the government. So that's actually pretty consistent given his history of welcoming and normalizing war crimes. After backing a massacre-committing Pakistani government, installing the deadly Pinochet regime in Chile, and then supporting an Indonesian despot, it's amazing he had time to stop by for a bit of Military junta soccer. Yeah, dictator Vidal entered the opening ceremony, backed by a military band for the world to venerate. In a naval base less than one mile from the ceremony, thousands were being tortured and murdered.

27:02Argentina won the tournament, of course. In one game with Peru, they had to win by several goals in order to progress, and they did so. And it's one of the most commented on games in soccer history because the Peru players were kept up all night, their bus got lost several times on the way to the game. And Videla even entered the Peru changing rooms before the game, telling them they had to cooperate, which really means lose to Argentina. They were also offered huge bribes. What? That's insane. So he rolls in and goes, by the way, I know you were kept up all night and you got lost and they're all pissed off and tired.

27:37And he's like, you are going to each get, you know, whatever,$500 ,000, but you're going to lose this game. Otherwise you might not go home. Yeah, exactly. So it was like the money was an additional incentive. It's not clear where the money came from. Several Peruvian players have spoken about it while others have denied that they were offered bribes. So this is a really contentious issue. With them being kept up all night, basically, normally there are police to prevent local fans from keeping people up. And the police mysteriously weren't there that evening. So the Argentine fans could all go and sort of keep all the Peruvian players up.

28:11But the consensus is that they were bribed the players and also threatened. So it's absolutely crazy. And even today, I mean, Argentina still talks about, I think it's now three World Cups because they just won the recent one. And they include that one, you know, and I understand why they do. But it's also a bit of looking the other way, I suppose. It's sports washing that's still in action 50 years later. Yeah, that's crazy. That to me is, it's a little wild. Also, though, I can understand the temptation to do so. It's like, hey, we don't have a whole lot to brag about from the 70s because we had this terrible regime that murdered a bunch of people.

28:46So if we talk about how we won the World Cup, maybe we don't mention the part where the players were threatened and it was just part of the least concerning bit of corruption and shady stuff that was going on with the government at that time. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the football fans. And then the non-football fans, not that there are that many in Argentina, you know, often talk about that regime just because, I mean, I used to live there and it was just such a horrible moment for all of them. So many people lost children, parents, and just never to be seen again. Oh, man. The helicopter ride over the ocean thing, not a joke, by the way, right?

29:16He would take students who said, hey, the government is bad. We should have something better. And they would throw them out of a helicopter into the ocean while they were alive. It's terrible. It was, as you say, mostly that kind of thing. There's just been a big film out in Argentina about it. And you can really go through each step as they got worse and worse, the military dictatorship. But it wasn't even just people who had criticized them. It was people who belonged to groups and teams whose names sounded similar to ones that opposed them. So there were all sorts of, I can't think of right now what they were, but there were all sorts of mistakes where people were taken because they belonged to like the dog supporter group.

29:52And it sounded like the dictator hating group or something like that. You know, they would just take whoever. Oh my gosh. It was absolutely mad. That sounds like North Korea type stuff. Like you folded the newspaper with the leader's face on it. But I can't see. I'm blind. I have cataracts. Oh, well, we still have to kill you. Yeah, exactly that. And one of the worst moments during that World Cup sports washing thing, the guards at the nearby naval base where people were being tortured took some of the prisoners out to witness the euphoria on the streets after Argentina had won the World Cup. And it was as if to show them that this was Argentina, the one with them locked up, and it was happier without them.

30:28And it's been reported that the prisoners, their first time outside in the light for years, stood pale and shaking while their compatriots cheered around them, ignorant of who they were, of course. And then they were put back in their cars and taken back to the torture chambers. Many of them never get out again. Horrible. Again, this is in what, the 70s and early 80s in Argentina? Yeah, the dirty war, they call it. That's awful. Yeah, awful. But I would just like to add in the name of fairness and self-awareness that it's not only far-flung nations who engage in sports washing, because Western countries do the same thing.

31:00Most notably, my own country of England. The greatest moment in English soccer history was winning the World Cup in 1966, which when I was a kid didn't seem that long ago, but now seems almost as close to the 1800s as it is to present day. But there is a blip on that record because all of the African teams boycotted that tournament to protest the fact they had not really been given any allocations to qualify for it. And this was further complicated by FIFA's decision to allow apartheid South Africa to potentially join. They didn't qualify, but had they played, that would have been major sports watching by England and FIFA.

31:35At the same time, I imagine that hosting events, it doesn't always lead to war or embolden dictators, right? Well, as I was saying, the positive effect is often difficult to measure. When London hosted the Olympics, I can tell you from experience that there was a huge swell in public feeling, nationalism, pride and general happiness. But I think a lot of people wonder now about the legacy of hosting that competition. Did we really go on to invest in young athletes and infrastructure? Were stadia and other buildings reused or just abandoned? The same goes for Brazil after the 2014 World Cup and Greece after the 2004 Athens Games, where many locals are sceptical about the positives of having hosted those huge competitions.

32:17But hosting a tournament is a long an unpredictable strategy in sports washing. Now nations are buying and investing in teams. It's a far more permanent and wide-reaching tactic. It's not always direct. Think of Russian oligarch Roman Abramovich, who bought Chelsea, a soccer team in London, and invested so much money into them that he effectively changed the financial landscape of soccer around the world. He was known to be friendly with Putin and had to step down as owner after the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. Now, Manchester City, another team, is owned by Sheikh Mansour of the United Arab Emirates.

32:53Paris Saint-Germain, obviously Paris' big team, is owned by Qatar. And a Saudi Arabia-led consortium just bought Newcastle United, a team in the north of England. When they bought Newcastle, many fans and journalists were appalled, as they saw it as a way to put a sporting face on the atrocities carried out by the Saudis, such as the recent torture and murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi. But just like I continued to watch the games at the Qatar World Cup, Newcastle fans, aware that their decades-long underperforming team would soon be one of the world's best, embrace the change. Even wearing tea towels.

33:31What did you call tea towels, Jordan? I think a tea towel is a dish towel in the United States. Dish towel on their heads in the stadium to represent Arabic headdresses. Oh my God. All right, folks, I can't get you 8 million gallons of free Budweiser, but I can get you a great deal on some of the products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. The wait is over. Dive into Audible's most anticipated collection, The Best of 2025, featuring top audiobooks, podcasts, and originals across all genres. Our editors have carefully curated this year's must-listens, from brilliant hidden gems to the buzziest new releases.

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35:40Now for the rest of Skeptical Sunday. Wow. Okay. I'm not sure who should be more offended. Human rights activists appalled by the Saudi sports washing or Saudi Arabians appalled by the dish towels that fans are wearing on their heads, but also like soccer fans, not necessarily known for tact and decorum, generally speaking. So it's kind of the least troubling thing that happens at most soccer games. Of course. Yeah. And while there are, I am sure, some Newcastle fans who stand in opposition to the sports washing, most, I imagine, are just excited about where their team might go. They didn't even mind the Saudi consortium changing the colors of one of their kits to green and white to represent the Saudi colors.

36:22Wow. So they're not even subtle about the sports washing. It's not like he owns it through some shell corporation and nobody's supposed to know. It's just like, nope, we're changing the colors to the Saudi colors. And this guy's going to be on the sidelines at every game in full regalia and publicizing it everywhere. Well, that's the point though, right? That's the sports washing. That's the point, as everybody knows. Yeah, exactly. Why would they hide it? I mean, nobody cares enough to do anything. Think of that Qatar World Cup. Fans, players and coaches made a few noises when it was first announced and then did so again in the months leading up to the tournament.

36:52But if the football associations of just a few countries, say the US, England, Spain, Germany, France, and the Netherlands stood firm and refused to play in Qatar. From the beginning, FIFA would have been forced to change it. The associations of the countries had 10 years to do something. All they managed was a few zero-cost virtue statements. For example, the England team got these armbands saying, one love. Yeah, that's so vague. I saw that. I'm like, what does one love mean? It literally means nothing. A dictatorship might take that to mean that the one love is a man and a woman or it could actually support homophobia.

37:30I mean, did this do anything at all? No, the players backed down and didn't wear them. FIFA threatened to give players wearing the armband a yellow card, which isn't the worst thing in soccer. You can still play, but you are at a bit of a disadvantage and the World Cup's a big thing that doesn't come around that often. You don't want to play the whole game with a yellow card. And the England team and other teams backed down and didn't wear them. And that's the thing. real activism is hard. Real activism, the kind that changes things and doesn't just serve the activist's ego, is rarely zero cost.

38:04Perhaps the best example of this in the history of sports was when suffragette Emily Wilding Davison ran in front of a racehorse owned by the king. The racehorse was a form of sports washing itself as the king basked in the triumph and glory of his majestic creature. Emily Wilding Davison died from her injuries and I'm not suggesting that activists go so far as to risk their lives, but there's got to be a middle ground between literally dying for a cause and giving up on a cause because you would have gotten a yellow card. Suffragette, so she wanted women to have the right to vote. She got trampled by a racehorse.

38:36Wow. If your activism only stretches as far as the first threat of a yellow card, just saying maybe you don't deserve the plaudits. I agree. You have to risk something. Most of us aren't even willing to risk a loss of capital, cash, a shot at a cup, even a friggin yellow card. And despotic regimes, they know this. So they realize there's going to be basically zero accountability for their actions. And that just encourages more of this behavior and helps make sports washing work, which is really frustrating. But has any good ever come from sports washing generally? Well, that's an interesting question, particularly regarding the dynamic of the Gulf states right now.

39:14Qatar, the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia have had a bit of a tumultuous relationship over the years, but it appears the World Cup in Qatar has brought them together, as was emphasised by the images of an embrace between former sworn enemies, Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman of Saudi Arabia, and Qatar's Emir Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad al-Tani. Whether that's good for the West or the rest of the world, however, remains to be seen. One thing that does seem clear is that it won't be easy to stop sports washing. The biggest fight to stop it that I've seen has come in the world of golf. Saudi Arabia set up their LIV Golf Invitation Series, and they've been trying to entice the best and most famous golfers in the world to come and play.

39:58The golfers have been receiving huge sums of money just to perform, let alone win. And that far outstrips what they can earn on the traditional PGA Tour. But this has started something of a civil war, where the PGA has said that any golfers who play in the Saudi competition are not welcome in their tournaments. And golfers are picking size and calling each other out. Now, I have sympathy with the golfers because they are individuals. They're not all stinking rich. They can only play sports for a limited time in their lives. And they're being offered life-changing money just to go and play. Golfers who play in Saudi Arabia are being asked by journalists in press conferences if they considered the families of victims of 9-11 and things like that.

40:42And it's hard because these are individuals, not companies. And while they say they do sympathize with the victims of 9-11, they also are probably thinking primarily of themselves and their families. Tiger Woods stood firm against Saudi Arabia, but most golfers don't have his wealth and fame. So it's easier for Woods to say no. Yeah. Turning down a couple million dollars is a lot easier when you already have a billion dollars. Yeah. When you're Tiger Woods, and that's that thing about zero cost, you know, for Tiger Woods turning down Saudi Arabia, maybe it's like a 1 % cost. For someone else, that might be like 90%.

41:14And then your activism is like, you know, what do you do with that when you go home and you don't have any money? You're like, oh, at least I didn't go to Saudi Arabia. You know, it's hard. Humans are difficult. Humans are complicated. Ultimately, this extends beyond golf, beyond the Olympics, and beyond soccer. This year, 2023, the FIBA Basketball World Cup is being held partly in the Philippines, led by the Marcos family dictatorship, who kill and torture anyone who seems to oppose them. Big tennis tournaments have frequented the likes of Qatar, China, Russia and Apartheid South Africa. National rugby teams were welcomed to the communist regime of Romania, the Apartheid State of South Africa and military junta Argentina.

41:53And other rugby teams welcomed Fiji's national side during their military dictatorship. The racing Grand Prix and professional cycling have been just about everywhere, as has boxing. And even the WWE, that's wrestling, has gone to North Korea. Muhammad Ali went on that tour and WWE twice visited Saudi Arabia. North Korea, professional wrestling in North Korea. I actually have never heard about that at all. And I can only imagine how bizarre that was. And for those that don't know, I'm a bit of a North Korean nerd. I've been there a bunch of times. Producer Gabriel Mizrahi and I did a couple of episodes where we talked about our time in North Korea.

42:31So definitely search the website for those. I think one of the episodes is 435. And there's just not a whole lot there, right? So getting the right food, being in the right hotel, having a bunch of wrestlers go there, and then having a bunch of North Korean fans watch this. I mean, they already think America's weird. I can't even imagine what they thought of America when they're watching wrestling. And that is just so freaking weird. That's weird on top of weird. There's like a specific type of American sports or I don't even know what I'd call it that North Korea do seem to like because there's that basketball player, isn't there?

43:05Who's also quite friendly. Do you know what I mean? Dennis Rodman. Yeah, they like kitschy, weird ass stuff, which is maybe not totally surprising, but also just kind of it's extra weird. Increasingly, countries with questionable human rights records are buying up billion dollar sports club like properties in a game of Monopoly. In fact, I should say there's a lot of news at the moment because firstly, Manchester United seem to be being approached by Qatari investors. Qatar is also trying to get a cut of Tottenham. Tottenham. Tottenham for you Americans, us Americans. Tottenham. As Americans sometimes say that, that's my club.

43:38So whenever I'm telling Americans, I have to say Tottenham or Spurs, Spurs or something like that. You know, they're looking to do that. Oh, and also I should mention actually, you know, I was researching this. And did you hear, Jordan, about the whole controversy of Manchester City this week? I did not because me following the news is not really a thing. And me following the sports news is certainly not a thing. And me following the sports news when it comes to soccer is absolutely not a thing. No. Right. So it's one of the biggest news stories to come out of the Premier League, which is the top division of English soccer.

44:07And basically what it is, there's something called like financial fair play. And it means that you're only allowed to spend a certain ratio of the amount you earn, as in income from selling merchandise, from winning tournaments and stuff like that. And it has emerged that Manchester City over the past 10 years have allegedly inflated their earnings by doing all sorts of dodgy dealing. So this is Manchester City owned by United Emirates, Sheikh Mansour. And yeah, for 10 years, they've been inflating. So they would pretend they were paid more than they were for certain sponsorship deals and all sorts of things.

44:42This is all alleged at the moment. And it's a huge story because it would mean that they basically won everything the last 10 years. They've won almost every league, every cup. They've been the best team in the world for years now. And if proven true, these allegations, and it feels like the Premier League would not have announced them if they didn't think they had a very good chance of proving them true, Manchester City might be expelled from the league altogether or perhaps relegated and they might lose all of their trophies over the last 10 years. Wow. So that's a huge deal. That's not like a fine or that's a huge deal.

45:14Oh, yeah. Nothing. No, because you can't fine them. Right. Because a fine means it just means nothing to them. Yeah. So this is it. I mean, we've seen some things with like match fixing and stuff like that in the Italian league where the team Juventus, one of the biggest teams there, they were relegated to the division below. but what's happening with Man City could be even more than that and there's a big sort of war going on where the other 19 clubs in the league are all getting very upset about Manchester City because they're saying well this is not a level playing field so yet again in this case the United Arab Emirates the sports watching is being mixed up with sort of this sense of cheating and injustice and that kind of thing so again it remains to be seen I think that they are probably right in knowing that even the cheating and all that stuff it's still going to be good for them they can still sponsor all their airlines and things like that and do well.

46:01So they sponsor the team shirts as well. A lot of the sports watching nations and stuff. The names drape the titles of airlines and they provoke civil wars between golf players. And for us to stop it is both the easiest and hardest thing in the world. Yeah, but well, don't stop listening to this podcast. No, stop watching sports games run by dictators. But keep on listening to Skeptic Sunday on the Jordan Harbinger show for both sides of the story with a healthy side of skepticism. Also, So if you want to know more about the crimes of FIFA in particular, as there is a lot more on their atrocious record, check out episode 191 of my podcast, On the Edge with Andrew Gold, where my guest is a FIFA expert.

46:40Thank you so much, man. And thank you all for listening. I do hope you'll think twice before going to North Korea to watch a wrestling match, although it would be so tempting. And please avoid all soccer games within a mile of any torture chambers. I joke, but it's really, that stuff is really, really sad and cruel. and especially like, oh, they're going to threaten you with a yellow card. Well, now I got to watch it. It's crazy to me that you almost have no leverage because FIFA, everybody knows they're corrupt. And yet they're kind of like, yeah, and what are you going to do about it? And the answer is nothing because you still want to watch the World Cup.

47:13And there seems to be no hope in cleaning it up because there's no incentive to really clean it up. The incentive is keep the money flowing. You know what's sad for me? Because football is my passion, really. And it's the most important of all the unimportant things. Right. So to see that happen to the game and for it to have been happening for so many decades. And there's no one you go to like to clean that up. What can the fans do? And there's just nothing. All the countries would have to get together and be like, hey, we need to stop being corrupt and dealing with these corrupt bastards, which is not likely because the point is countries like Russia, Qatar, whatever, are going to be corrupt and bribe the FIFA officials.

47:50Like, that's the point. So if you have one country that's going to do that, it's a prisoner's dilemma. Yeah, they can just do that. And if everybody else says, hey, we're not going to do that. Fine. We'll just hold it in shitholes constantly. Right. We will hold the next one in North Korea because they're the ones who are going to pay us to do it. The end. You're right. It seems pretty hopeless, at least as far as FIFA is concerned with the rest of it. I mean, what do we do? Do we just pay attention to countries and events? I know, like, for example, the Beijing Olympics. A lot of people said, I'm not going to watch the Olympics.

48:19And I was one of those people. That was a little easier to just not watch the Olympics because I didn't want to support. the Chinese Communist Party in a commercial endeavor. And I didn't want to go. I was thinking about going and I was like, no, I don't want to do that. And I mean, really, what do you do? Just withhold your ticket sales? Don't go? There are times, I guess, in society where, you know, it's a little bit like voting, for example, where like everyone has to do it or it's stupid or recycling. Like, you know, everyone has to do it, including huge companies and things like that. So it is frustrating because you can turn your back to it.

48:51You'll hear it in your next door neighbour's room, particularly the soccer, particularly if you're somewhere like Argentina. And there are a lot of countries, and I don't mean this in a patronising sense, but this wasn't really a big story. I know a lot about Argentina just because I've got family there and stuff, but this wasn't, it was mentioned, of course it was quite often, but it wasn't a huge story there. It was more focused on the football because they've got other things to worry about, you know? So I don't think it was such a huge story around the world. I don't think people are that bothered about the sports washing outside of some of the Western countries.

49:20Germany did some protesting stuff but then they were made fun of because they lost every game and it was sort of like people were saying focus on the football you know rather than making that statement Holland tried to say something or other hopefully if I can be optimistic here the nations will have learned their lesson because they've all got a bit of bad press and I think they all found themselves in a position 10 to 12 years after the announcement that it was going to be in Qatar where they were like oh we should have all done something a bit earlier and hopefully but look money talks and who knows how far that goes.

49:51It took 10 years to prove any connection between Russia, Qatar, and money with FIFA. So who knows how far that actually extends to the US, to England, and to other countries. We just don't know. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Thanks again for listening. Any topic idea, always welcome. Jordan at jordanharbinger.com is how you can reach me. And if we got anything that's way, way off, definitely let me know that too. A link to the show notes for the episode can be found at jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts in the show notes. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, or you can connect with me on LinkedIn.

50:26You can find Andrew Gold on his podcast, On the Edge with Andrew Gold, anywhere you get your podcasts. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Milio Campo, Josh Ballard, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer, so do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love, and if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who needs to hear it. Maybe a FIFA fan, a soccer fan, somebody who went to the Genocide Games at the last few Olympics now.

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