831: The Harrowing Hunt for a Housecat Houdini | Feedback Friday

22:38And Jen door dashed us some cat treats, which he loved. He went crazy for them. And Drake has just been extra clingy and affectionate ever since. Like he's still acting sweeter than he usually does. And I feel like he got a whole new lease on life. It's really something. So anyway, what we think happened is the contractor walked out of the bathroom and like took lunch or went to the bathroom or something, left the door open. And Drake snuck in and I think he was curious and went down into the hole. Or he got scared when the guy was coming back and freaked out and didn't know where to go. So he just ran into the hole.

23:08Either way, the contractor didn't know and then covered over the hole with cement and just trapped him underneath the floorboards, which is just really crazy and sad to think about. Must have freaked him out. Oh, man. He's just in there exploring and then it's like, and it's just pitch black. Yeah. And he's like, wait a minute. there's a board where I was going to leave and then it's like oh that's not opening the hole I know and now I'm just trapped he's like in the stranger world upside down I was just gonna say he's in the upside down where it's just totally black can't see anything here's other people can't reach me can't meow loud enough can't find the way out and then oh it's so sad he must have been so sad I've replayed this four days in my head I mean he's fine but anyway look I learned a lot from this experience.

23:54It was the craziest, weirdest, saddest thing I've probably been through. And, you know, I've lost people and that's been very hard and I've cried, but you know, there was something uniquely messed up about this situation. And that's actually why I wanted to tell you guys the story. Cause I learned a few things that are so connected to the other stuff that we talk about on the show. And one of them is in a situation like this, where you don't know what is going on. I've now realized that you have to investigate every single premise, every single assumption in a situation. My mom was convinced. She was like, there is no way Drake went down in some hole.

24:28There was no hole that turned out to be 100 % false. We didn't investigate that assumption ourselves. We just took the contractor's word for it. And it took us four days to realize what actually happened. So there's that whole concept of like garbage in garbage out. If you can't trust the data. Yeah. I will say when you called me and said, do you have any theories? I was like, he probably crawled into a hole because the contractor is doing something. And it was like, no, we're sure that didn't happen because there was no hole. And I'm like, well, if there was no hole, there was no hole at all.

24:57Right. Like he didn't move a board. Nothing. No, nothing. Okay. Like if you say so. It's so interesting. You just can't trust the data you inherit. You have to do your own research and you have to pressure test every story if you want the real truth. And also this neighbor sent us down this other thing with this other lead and that turned out to be false. And if we had questioned her more closely, she might've said, actually, I think it was gray and we would have known. So I think that's true in our world now more than ever, just these inherited opinions and these inherited perspectives are usually limited and potentially very dangerous.

25:27The other thing I've learned is that when you're in a crisis, you have to act. And I think a lot of people's instinct and including mine for a couple hours in the morning on that first day was you just kind of want to collapse and you just want to kind of wait around, which it's sort of natural. You're like, it'll just work itself out and I'll have to be sad and uncomfortable, but I'll be happy with whatever the outcome is. But you have to spring into action. You have to pursue every lead. You have to do everything humanly possible to help, especially if someone precious is missing, like a pet or a family member or friend or whatever.

25:58But it's bizarre because you also simultaneously have to surrender to the situation and understand your own limits, like what you can actually do. Like you can't be on the street at two 30 in the morning, calling your pet's name if you need to sleep so you can do it again the next day. So it's a very intense back and forth in that way. But I do think that springing into action also helps with the grief. I noticed that when I was doing something, it gave me a little reprieve from the pain and it gives your sadness and your anger some shape. You don't just collapse under it and just it's kind of like amorphous and just so hard.

26:34It puts it towards some goal and that really helps. The last thing I learned about the situation, Jordan, is that I think this is the first time in my life that I've dealt with ambiguous loss. And we've talked about ambiguous loss on the show a few times. I've never lived it before. Now I know a little bit about it. It is awful. And so if you guys don't know, ambiguous loss is basically when there's been some kind of loss, but you don't really know what happened. You don't have the closure or the answer you want. And this is what happens when somebody goes missing, for example, and you don't know where they are, or when you break up with somebody and they don't want to talk to you anymore.

27:08So you can't have that final, let's put this to bed conversation. Not having closure drives your mind insane. And like I said, in many ways, it's worse than what you would consider the worst case scenario to be. You can grieve a death as painful as that is, but it's really hard to grieve a mystery. My mind was ping ponging among different scenarios and obsessing over situations that I hadn't even considered. And you're just like, there's a movie reel in your head of everything that could be happening, but you don't know which one to trust. And it is torture, that kind of pain. And again, I know that I've experienced a relatively mild form of it.

27:44It's for an animal. It's not a child or a spouse or a parent. And it was only four days, which is like, some people go through this for months or years, which is just crazy or the rest of their lives. But this kind of pain has a really interesting way of forcing you to accept what is happening. and it really clarifies what you can and cannot control. And it makes you do whatever you have to do, the thing that's in front of you at that moment and not dwell on a bunch of other thoughts. And it's so hard to explain, but it just like narrows your world down to the things that matter and everything else becomes secondary or irrelevant.

28:23And that's not a fun experience to go through, but I don't know, there's some spiritual lesson in there somewhere that it just really forces you to realize what you can't do and what you can do and just to do that. Probably the worst thing I've ever experienced again. And I know that makes me fortunate forsooth, but I just wanted to share that with you guys in case it helps. And I also just want to say before we wrap up here, if you ever have a Petco missing, please hit me up. I will do everything I can to help. So many people gave me tips for finding Drake, including a lot of you guys. You guys are the best.

28:55Just you were amazing. I posted about this on Instagram and a bunch of you reached out and I will absolutely pass that along to anybody else who ends up going through this. Losing a pet is terrible. It's the worst. It's one of the worst things. But there is a way to maximize your chances of finding them and I will help anybody whoever needs it the way people help me. I'm more than happy to do that. So just do me a favor. If you ever do any work on your house, put your pets in a separate room, give them food and give them water and just do not let them near the site. You'll avoid a lot of heartache that way.

29:25Also, make sure your contact information on their microchips is up to date. I found out that Drake's microchip hadn't even been registered until after he was gone, which was crazy. And we should have been on top of that. And most importantly, if you do have a pet, hug them extra tight. You know how precious they are, but they are even more precious than you think. And I've been doing that every day since Drake went missing. And I feel very lucky. And it's a wild thing. And I just wanted to share that with you guys. Wow, quite the saga. So glad he's back. but also good job turning this into a learning lesson for everybody else on the show.

30:00Unfortunately, that happened to you, but thank God for the happy ending, Ray. Yeah, I know. I feel very lucky. Thank you. Well, you know who won't disappear on you? The amazing sponsors that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by LinkedIn. If you've ever hired for your small business, you know how important it is to find the right person. That's why LinkedIn Jobs is stepping things up with their new AI assistant, so you can feel confident you're finding top talent that you can't find anywhere else. The best part is that these great candidates are already on LinkedIn.

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31:37And you can search for any sponsor using the AI chatbot on the website as well. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right, next up. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. Five years ago, I moved back to my home state after almost a decade. I didn't know anyone aside from my family and high school friends, and I had zero connections outside of my small town. At the time, I had just gone through a train-the-trainer coaching program, which turned out to be a scam, and wanted to start my business as a certified coach based on the skills that they taught. I did what they recommended, and started going to networking events and having coffee dates with people I met, and everything about it felt gross and overwhelming.

32:20Finally, I got to the point of having a mental breakdown in my car after one of those meetings and gave up on the business idea entirely. I ended up accepting a$5 ,000 loss on that program and focused on healing from everything I'd gone through up to that point, and I am so happy I did. I've since discovered that the majority of my past experiences, including that coaching program, drilled in the idea that I needed to be a chameleon of sorts, to be who I thought the person in front of me wanted or needed me to be, and tailoring my pitch, and my entire self, to be that person. Sadly, many of my relationships had been transactional, and I was treating those connections that way, or felt like I needed to have something to offer to even feel relevant to them.

33:05It was all very inauthentic and exhausting. These days, I have a much easier time showing up as myself because I have a more solid idea of who I am. Everything I've learned in the last five years has brought me to a new field, and I want to get out there and connect with people again. But I still have fears and reservations, especially because I'll likely run into many of the people I met before, and I wonder if they have a weird taste in their mouth about that not-me person from years ago. Do you have any advice on how I can rekindle past connections and make new ones in a non-gross way? Would it help to reach out to some of the people I met before who I'd like to meet again and be like, hey, we met a while back and it was probably weird.

33:47I was going through some shit. Just wanted to say hi again. Signed, rewriting this toxicity with my brand new authenticity. Wow. This tracks with these shady coaching programs. Yep. In addition to being lame and BS-y, they also tend to encourage people to view their friends, the whole world really, through the lens of what they can get. It's like a multi-level marketing scam, How they make people like them so they can achieve something, which is obviously a recipe for inauthenticity and transactional relationships. And it's really gross. It's incredibly short-sighted. And to your point, it is a great way to become totally disillusioned and frankly friendless.

34:27I love that you understand how your past experiences created the idea that you need to be a shapeshifter to attract people. That's actually a terrific insight. And that's precisely the quality that these coaching programs tap into, because most people are conditioned that way. And that's the principle that allows the virus of these coaching programs to perpetuate itself. So I'm really proud of you for seeing that for what it was and reconnecting with yourself. It's not easy to do that. In fact, a lot of people get to the point where you did, where they have a breakdown and they just wonder why they're not happy or rich or popular or whatever the program promised them.

35:08And instead of doing what you did, they go deeper into the program. They double down on the curriculum, which only makes it harder to heal and grow. Gabe and I actually talked about the reasons for that in our episode with Sarah Edmondson and Nippy Ames about the NXIVM cult. That's episode 770 and 771. We'll link to that in the show notes. We also explored it on our deep dive about scam psychology, which is episode 395. I think that stuff is always super interesting. Anyway, all that to say, I'm proud of you for all this, and I love your mindset these days. So, about rekindling past connections, making new ones in a non-gross way, I think you're already 80 % of the way there, just by showing up as yourself, knowing who you are, not needing an agenda or a product or certain qualities to be worthy of someone's interest.

35:56When you get rid of these ideas, and that's some deep work right there, when you put that stuff aside, then you're already in a position to build relationships in a non-gross way because you're not operating from that fearful and needy place. You're not putting your interactions through a lens of what does this person need from me or what can I get from them. Plus, given what you've been through, you know what real relationships actually feel like. You're humbler now. You're more vulnerable. You're more human. That's a wonderful quality. And that's the quality that attracts the right people for the right reasons.

36:30And you really can't fake that. I've had friends who tried. It doesn't work. And I put friends in air quotes because I don't know who they are. They're a fake person all the time. And they're kind of like an onion with unlimited layers so far. It's very odd. As for rekindling old connections, I actually like the script that you pitched. You know, hey, we met a while back. Sorry if I seemed a little weird back then. I was going through some stuff. It probably came through in our chat. Just wanted to say hi again and see how you're doing. Nothing wrong with that. If people engage, great. You can hop on the phone.

37:01You can grab coffee. You can stick to texting, whatever it is. You can tell them a bit about what was going on at the time, what you learned, why you're reaching out again. Totally fair game. But it's also possible that some people won't respond. They just don't want to go there. They're too busy. Life has moved on. That's also totally fine. You understand why. You know it's not even necessarily a reflection of you. It's maybe a reflection of that not you that you were back then or completely unrelated, which again, it just confirms that you're on the right path. Such a good point. And I agree with all of that.

37:35I would only just add that I would be very thoughtful about the people you try to reconnect with. And I would probably only pursue the people you actually enjoy talking to and you actually want a real friendship with rather than contacting everybody you met back then as some kind of huge PR blitz, you know, to set the record straight for your own comfort, because when you look back, it's just too cringe to think about how you were back then. Yeah, that's interesting, right? Because then she might be slipping back into that old mindset where she's trying to get something from other people, even if that something is just, I don't know, approval or forgiveness or whatever.

38:09Yes, yes. And not I'm not saying you're necessarily doing that or even that that's entirely bad. I totally get it. But if there's a part of you that needs these people's approval in order to forgive yourself, I would think twice. Part of this journey you're on, I think, is accepting that some people might have had that impression. And that's okay. And you don't need to win everybody back over. So if you're going to rekindle these connections, I would do it in order to build authentic relationships, the ones that are aligned with this person you are now, and do it with people you like, not just to manage their perception of you, you know, retroactively or make yourself feel better.

38:44It's a fair point, Gabe, because that's how she ended up here in the first place, right? So funny how this stuff can creep through in the back door, so to speak. So keep doing what you're doing, keep moving forward and keep an eye on all this inauthenticity stuff because it does have a way of creeping in for all of us in different ways. And if you ever notice those old thoughts or those old patterns returning, just notice them, appreciate why they've popped up again and come back to home base, which is, you know, I'm a solid person. I'm good. I'm not here to get anything from this person. I'm just here to get to know them, be real, have fun, let the relationship take care of itself.

39:22That's really all you have to do. And yes, when it's appropriate, you can tell people the story of what happened to you with this program because it is fascinating and humanizing. And I think that'll go a long way too. Also, if you want to learn more about how to become more authentic, which is a word that I know also is kind of cringe, it's one of Gabe and mine's favorite topics. Check out a feedback Friday we did, what, a month and change ago? That was episode 822, where we talk about the best way to become more authentic without falling back into the trap of pretending you're someone you're not, or pretending to be authentic, right?

39:55I think that would be a great listen for you right now. And I'm so proud of you for doing the work and coming so far. You're absolutely on the right track, and good luck. You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Use a descriptive subject line. That makes our job a lot easier. If there's something you're going through, a big decision you're wrestling with, or if you just need a new perspective on life, love, work, whether you should leave your wife to gallivant around the world with men half your age, that beach shack in Bali, whatever's keeping you up at night lately, hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com.

40:28We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. Okay, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, my son is married to a beautiful, smart, talented half Korean woman, and they have two children. Before they had kids, we all seemed to get along well. After their firstborn, though, we apparently said or did something wrong every time we got together, and that's when we first started noticing the tension with them. Since then, every time we visit, there's been some blow-up between our son and his wife. She accused him of, quote-unquote, taking our side and threatened that if he didn't side with her against us, she was leaving.

41:03These issues have never been addressed in the moment and never with us. For example, a couple years ago, we watched the kids so that they could have some couple time. We thought everything went splendidly only to find out that we couldn't watch the kids quote unquote for a long time. I was so deeply hurt and confused. I confronted her directly. That didn't go well. Our son knows that many of these accusations aren't true. He just doesn't want to have World War Three with his wife. He's told us that she has anger management issues and has been paranoid about other things he doesn't understand. There are also in-law difficulties on all sides in their family.

41:42Anger, not speaking, throwing things, this all seems to be acceptable behavior. Separately, their oldest child has always been emotionally challenging. I have begged our son to get counseling to sort all of this out. He'll go for a couple sessions, but when things settle down to a dull roar for a couple days, he quits because it's expensive and doesn't change things. I'm so distressed about being accused of things I didn't think or do, and about seeing my son suffer this emotional abuse. But we stay silent and just keep telling him to get counseling. But then he's a grown-ass man and needs to figure this out himself.

42:21Recently, I read a book about understanding cultural differences. One paragraph specifically talked about how Korean women can sometimes view American women as aggressive. I admittedly have a thick skin and a more pragmatic and realistic approach to life situations, so maybe that's part of this? How can we have a relationship with our grandkids without adding to our son's stress? Is there a cultural difference we can learn to manage better? Signed, a laid-back ma in absolute awe at my daughter-in-law's chutzpah. Ooh boy, this is tough. Your daughter-in-law, look, we don't know what's going on in her head and we only have your side of the story here, but I'm getting the sense that this is a very difficult person.

43:05Very difficult. And the fact that this sort of thing is happening in other parts of the family, that definitely paints a picture of a family that has probably always struggled to talk, communicate fairly, resolve conflicts. It's not just you guys. I mean, when they said throwing things is normal, that's not normal. Yeah. No. Not good. Not normal. Yeah, because if there's a legitimate problem, it doesn't have to be extra complicated because you're yelling and or not talking. I also think it's interesting that their oldest child is having some emotional challenges. Something's going on there. Yeah, I'm not surprised by that in the least.

43:38I'm sure their kids are absorbing all sorts of stuff from parents like these, especially from a mother like this. Yeah, it sucks. We know kids act out when there's trouble in the household like this. They you know, they do things like they bite themselves when they want to feel something other than the stress in the house. I mean, it's really sad. So this definitely falls into the situations you can't fix overnight or maybe ever category. So much of this is out of your control. But Gabe and I like taking questions like this from time to time because it really is a good question. How do you work on things that you can't just change on your own?

44:15So to cut to the chase, you have a few levers here. Lever number one, your son. In my view, he's the one perpetuating the situation. Yes, his wife might be the primary aggressor, but he's definitely giving her a wide berth and enabling her to some degree. Until he decides to step up a little more, have some real conversations with her about why these conflicts keep coming up, why they're so severe, how they can get on better. I just don't see the situation changing. He basically needs to man up here. And yes, therapy would be super helpful for him, but it sounds like he either hasn't found the right therapist yet, or he's just not really engaging with the process.

44:52And it sounds like, oh, I went once and it was expensive and it doesn't change anything. It's like, what do you mean you went? What are you talking about? Three times. Yeah. And then you gave up. Yeah. He finds it hard to stick with it or put what he's learning into action. And it sounds like he's just a big old wimpski, in my opinion. Which, yeah, to your point, might be another aspect of the same pattern that is happening in his house. Right. He's shrinking from conflict. He's sidestepping tough conversations. Yeah. I'm just getting an image of a guy who is wilting, you know. And that's the image that comes to mind.

45:23His face is kind of blurred in my head, but his shoulders are hunched over and his wife takes up all the space. And when he wants to say something and she doesn't want him to, he doesn't, he's not allowed. It's sad. He sounds scared and he sounds defeated. Yeah. It's just like, whatever. I'm tired. I'm scared of you and I'm tapping out, which is precisely why he needs to be in therapy. But the problem, as you know, well, is that it's just not clear that he's going to do the work. So we're back to this old chestnut. You can't make your son do anything that he's not ready to do. If I were his dad, I would absolutely invite him to talk about what's going on.

46:01I would make it safe for him to explore this stuff with you. I would help him get clear on whether he's happy with his relationships, with his wife, with his kids, with you. And yes, I would definitely encourage him to find a good therapist and actually stick with it. But the really frustrating thing is accepting that this is the person your son wants to be. regardless of what he says. Actions are saying everything here. This is who he wants to be, for now anyway. So, lever number two, your son's wife. This, it sounds like, is probably where most of this stuff originates, but sadly, I don't have a whole lot of high hopes here.

46:35You already tried to talk to her directly, and it imploded. And look, I don't know how that went down exactly. You said you have a thick skin. You're pragmatic. You're realistic. I don't know if you cornered her in the laundry room one day, and you're like, look, jackass, I think we both no, you're not a big fan of ours. I'm not crazy about you either, but let's nip this in the bud. What the hell is your problem? Also, why are you using Tide? You should be using seventh generation. It's not toxic. You know this woman is a Tide person too. Tide pods. Yeah, 100%. This is a Tide pods lady to the core.

47:06Yep. We have Tide pods. Anyway, it's impossible, or at least imitation Tide pods. I don't know. I don't eat them though, like the kids do these days. Is that still happening? I don't think so. That's one of those things that probably never really happened. It was probably in two TikToks And it's like, oh, slow news day. Let's write articles about this. It's impossible for us to know, not the detergent thing, but maybe the way you approached her rubbed her the wrong way. Maybe it activated her defenses and that made things worse. Or who knows? Maybe you handled this perfectly well and she still blew up at you because she's unable.

47:39I think that's what happened. That's what it sounds like. It sounds like they were reasonable. And she's like, oh my God, I'm totally messed up. And all my patterns got triggered. And the only thing I know now, know how to do now is break plates and hold a grudge. Well, what, think about what we know about her, right? She's paranoid. He doesn't even know half the stuff she's paranoid about. And she's flies off the handle, uh, just like at the smallest thing. This woman is difficult to talk to, but I love that she tried to do that. I really do. Same here. Yeah. But because the big theme in the story is avoidance, right?

48:10Everybody in this situation be walking on eggshells. At least she tried to resolve this with her directly. I really commend her for that. That could not have been easy. With a personality like this, Lady Tide Pods, she of the screaming and the paranoia, and with their grandchildren at stake, I mean, yeah, it takes cojones. So lever number three, yourselves. If they're not going to change, you guys have to change. And that change, it could mean a few things. It could mean pulling back a little or not getting as involved in their lives or just accepting the relationship they want on their terms and letting them work this out.

48:46It could mean taking another look at how you guys interact with them, how you might be contributing to this dynamic. Candidly, it's just hard for me to see how you guys could be responsible for a lot of this stuff. It honestly sounds like your daughter-in-law is out of her frigging tree. But even with crazy people, maybe we always play some role, right? even if it's not our fault, so to speak. Maybe you roll your eyes when she says something annoying. I don't know. Maybe it is walking on eggshells around her too, and that makes her notice that. I have no idea. Maybe it's overstepping sometimes, not stepping in enough.

49:18I'll let you decide what piece of this you guys actually do control. But whatever happens, this is my advice. Stay close to your son. Don't meddle too much in his marriage. Be a friend to him. Invite him to talk. Encourage him to get some support. Stay close to your grandkids as much as you can. I know it's complicated, but if their mom is nuts and their dad won't stand up to her, and that's just the house they grow up in, they're going to need other good family members around. And as they get older, mom and dad aren't going to be the gatekeepers as much. You know, you'll be able to visit without them around.

49:53They might have phones they can talk to you on. You guys can make plans on your own. You can talk to them more as young adults. That's what I'd do. Preserve your connection with them. Excellent advice. And as for the cultural differences aspect of this, I really appreciate that you're so curious about that. It's obviously a very real thing. And yes, it could be playing a role here for sure. But honestly, what you're describing does not sound like a cultural issue to me. It sounds to me like your daughter-in-law is all the things we've been saying. Controlling, paranoid, angry, kind of vindictive.

50:24Could that be informed by culture? Sure. And you trying to understand that might help you make progress with her. But to me, this this really this isn't culture, right, Jordan? This is personal. Yeah, it's a personality issue. She's just kind of a nightmare. I wonder how her relationship was with her parents. I mean, didn't they mention throwing and breaking things was normal? Totally. It sounds like she probably had a wild slash crappy childhood and is maybe projecting that onto her in-laws or working something out through them. Right. She can't yell at her own parents because it's going to be a whole world of drama.

50:55So she's like, I'm just going to be mad at your parents instead. I mean, something that might actually have little or nothing to actually do with them at all. The thing that really jumped out at me was that she accused her husband of taking his parents' side and then threatened that if he didn't side with her, she was going to leave. I mean, unless these grandparents did something truly awful that they haven't told us in this letter, that's a very troubling position to take. To me, that paints a picture of somebody who is very rigid, very black or white. I think this woman probably has trouble living in the gray area of healthy conflict where, you know, you acknowledge that the other person might have a point or you might be somewhat wrong or both parties are right.

51:35I mean, she didn't arrive at this position thoughtfully, slowly after trying to talk to them kindly, you know, and figure out what the problem is with her in-laws. This is a person who, from the sound of it, interprets any kind of challenge or disagreement as a threat and is actually looking for those problems where they might not exist. That's a very tough obstacle to overcome. That's a really good way of putting it. There's no give here, right? You're either on this woman's team or you're the enemy, which is obviously a dysfunctional way of going through life. And it's a great way to make enemies wherever you go.

52:08But like we said at the top, that's not a partner. That's a dictator. And you can't reason with dictators. They're not interested. So the biggest part of this for you guys will be working through that sadness in the meantime. And yeah, don't add to your son's stress, but I also wouldn't work too hard to spare him that stress either because he has some important things to confront himself and that's not always going to be fun. So be kind, be patient, be available and hope for the best. Sending you guys good thoughts. Little Miss Tide Pod. I mean, she's got her own stuff to work on. Gabe, stories like this make me feel so lucky to have married into Jen's family.

52:46We all get one. I'm great. I know that's probably the exception. There's never any drama or maybe they secretly hate me and they're just going to hide it. I don't know. Well, you know, you guys got that seventh generation vibe, right? You're non-toxic. You're, uh, you're gentle on the skin. Yeah. Weirdest compliment ever, but I hear you. I appreciate it. You know what won't alienate you from your own family? The amazing products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our sponsors.

53:18To learn more and get links to all the discounts, all the codes, URLs, they're all in one place, jordanharbinger.com slash deals. You can also search for any sponsor using the AI chatbot on the website as well. Thank you so much for supporting those who support the show. Now back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a recently single lesbian, and I was with my ex for 10 years. We didn't date before we got engaged because lesbians. So it's been a really long time since I dated anyone. There's that U-hauling thing again, Gabe. That's a thing. Did you see the movie Tar, by the way?

53:57No, it is about dinosaur fossils or something. Sorry for that weird laugh I just did. That really was hilarious. No, it's not about dinosaur fossils. It's a movie with Cate Blanchett that came out last year. It's kind of amazing. Anyway, there's this part where she refers to herself as a U-Haul lesbian in front of everybody. And it just made me think of that question we took from that woman whose girlfriend was still talking to all of her exes. Do you remember that? Yeah, it's a great term. Apparently, it's a very real thing. And I've heard Tara is super interesting, but I'm just worried about getting sucked into something disturbing.

54:30I mean, Cate Blanchett, man, intense. Oh, she goes there. She takes you there. OK, so the letter goes on. I joined some dating sites because I don't know how else to meet people, and I've met a few women so far. One of the women I met is substantially younger than me. I'm 43, and she's 31. We have a lot of fun together. We're both pretty dorky. We went to a club a few weeks ago for ladies night. She kissed me. It was good. The next day, she told me that was her first kiss. I completely freaked out. Obviously, if that was her first kiss, she's a virgin. I've been with a few first-timers, and afterwards they thought they were in love with me.

55:07I'm afraid that if I have sex with her, she'll think the same. I really do care for her, but I'm not ready for a relationship, and I don't want to really teach someone how to be a lesbian. Am I being selfish? Do I get over myself and just go for it? Or do I let her go before I break her heart? Signed, getting delirious about this inexperience before it gets too serious. Gabe this is the greatest humble brag I've ever heard on the show Help! All these new lesbians fall in love with me After we sleep together once Life is so hard What's the lesbian equivalent of Dickmatized? Good question Clitmatized?

55:47That's a little dirty I like it though Or maybe snatched That's worse There goes our clean rating on Apple Podcasts At least for this episode All right, so you have a bit of a reputation for snatching these women. These women be straight snatched after y 'all get together. I can certainly understand your concern here. You're not being entirely selfish. If you don't want to teach people how to be a lesbian and you're not ready for a relationship, I think that's fair. I think there's nothing wrong with that. But this woman does sound pretty great. And you guys are compatible. You're both dorky. You have fun together.

56:23The kissing was good. And that maybe doesn't come around too often. so I'd hate for you to write something off or someone off too quickly and miss out on something great. So honestly, I think this problem gets solved with some basic communication. I wonder what would happen if you just told this woman, hey, listen, I really like spending time with you. I'm having a lot of fun. I think there's something exciting here, but I want to be open with you. I'm not quite ready for a relationship yet, and I'm not sure where you are in your journey, but I'm not too keen on teaching somebody how to be gay.

56:55So I just want to be very upfront about that and see how you're feeling about all this and make sure you're okay with that before we continue. I mean, is that so bad? I think those are fair feelings and goals in a relationship. Gabe, am I missing anything? No, I don't think so. I agree. Two straight dudes talking about being a lesbian, though. Yeah, I know. Like, let's coach the lesbians on how to talk. I think they know how to talk well enough. And it's way easier. I do think it's way easier to say something like that after a few weeks than after a few months once the other person has caught feelings and settled into the relationship and they're already, you know, they're already snatched.

57:30Yeah, this is definitely a pre-snatched conversation. Post-snatched gets a lot more complicated. That would be a good way to ward off the whole snatch syndrome in the first place. Yeah, absolutely. But what I'm curious to know is I get that she's not ready for a relationship, totally fine. But what's difficult for her about teaching someone how to be a lesbian? And also when she says that, She means she doesn't want to teach her how to like go out in public together and how to talk to people about it and just how to get comfortable with the whole dynamic. Right. That's what she's referring to.

58:00I think so. Unless she meant more like bedroom mechanics. But I don't know. I mean, there's probably a learning curve there for first timers. I there certainly was for me. But that's true. But I also didn't. Never mind. You don't need the details. You understand why that that's the case. But yeah, I think she means more like, okay, you know, do you tell your friends and then you have to come out and then you have to explain this. And then there's all these different rules that obviously two straight dudes don't know anything about. Maybe that's what they mean. Although she did say that means she's a virgin, right?

58:31So then there's that whole thing. So maybe she means all of it, both of these things, which I can definitely appreciate. Sure. But then again, everybody is on different points in the journey, right? Our friend here is 43. This other woman is 31. She's obviously still coming to terms with her orientation. And yeah, she's a bit of a late bloomer, but I'm guessing that's not entirely her fault. I mean, who knows what her life story was? It's just different timelines. So I guess I wonder what helping this woman settle into the relationship is bringing up for you. Does it annoy you? Are you getting impatient?

59:05Do you maybe resent having to play that role for somebody else? Like what's going on underneath that? Right. That's the question. Because if she's just like, oh, I want somebody who's already there. I don't have time to teach somebody how to be my very own personal Cate Blanchett. That's not my problem. I might say, hang on a minute. You really like this woman. She's just catching up. Maybe take a beat and be a little more understanding. But if what she's saying is more along the lines of, okay, this role of initiating somebody makes me kind of uneasy. It's not really my place. I just want to settle down with somebody who's closer to where I am in this journey.

59:39And then I would say, okay, those are more fair concerns. I would dig into that. What makes you uneasy about it? What makes you feel like it's not your place? What are you looking for in a long-term partner? And if you can get to the heart of that, then I think you're going to answer your question pretty well. So are you being selfish? Do you need to get over yourself? That depends on what you do with all this information. Nothing wrong with being self-oriented in a relationship. You got to take your own needs seriously. But maybe the better question is, are your needs the only ones that matter?

1:00:11How do they fit with those of this woman? and do your feelings for her change any of that. Because again, it sounds like there might be something promising here. Totally up to you, but I wouldn't just let this woman go just because she's newer to this, just to avoid some heartache down the road or headache in the short term. It feels a little premature. So your best bet is to talk to her, keep checking in with her and yourself about what you both really want right now. But you don't need us to tell you that. You guys are lesbians. All you guys do is talk. So that's what got you into this mess in the first place.

1:00:43Remember, have fun, stay open, be fair. You'll be fine. Good luck. And too bad there's no masterclass on how to be a lesbian, Gabe. Who would teach that? Is that a Rosie O'Donnell course or is that a Kara Swisher course? Look, if I'm going to learn how to be a lesbian, I probably roll with Kara Swisher, but this is a matter of personal preference. Can you imagine if you just meet a woman who's just coming to terms with this and then you're like, look, I need you to catch up. I'm just going to buy you a year subscription to masterclass. Just watch the one with Cate Blanchett. Watch the one with Rosie O'Donnell.

1:01:13Watch, you know, just like the Malcolm Gladwell one will help you with your writing career. But stick with it. Here's the one about being gay. Start with that one. We'll go on a date in three months when you do all those worksheets. Right. Exactly. Before we wrap up here, we wanted to share a great email we got from a listener recently. So as you might remember, a couple of months back, we took a question from a woman who had been ghosted by multiple recruiters after going through several rounds of interviews at a bunch of companies. No rejection. No feedback, just crickets. She was starting to panic that it was going to happen again and again, and she wanted to know how to handle it.

1:01:46That was episode 800, by the way, if you want to check it out. A lot of people seem to be going through this, by the way. So we shared some thoughts about how to work through the anxiety, prepare for the interviews. But after the episode aired, one of our longtime listeners who works as a recruiter for one of the big tech companies, she sent us an email with some absolutely killer advice. If you're interviewing for jobs right now, which a lot of you are, or you're thinking about how to set yourself up for a job search, or you're an employer on the other side of this equation, I think this is money.

1:02:16Gabe, you want to read that for us? Sure. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I just listened to that Feedback Friday episode about the woman being ghosted by those companies and just could not help myself from emailing you guys to add some color because I am fired up. I've been a recruiter for five years and have been recruiting at one of the big four tech companies for the last three and a half years. I thought your responses to the question were totally valid and covered everything I would have said. I would love to add a few things, though, to further validate this person's awful job hunting experience and hopefully help them identify companies with better processes in the future.

1:02:51It sounds like this person has been a victim to multiple horrible candidate experiences, which is unacceptable and unlucky. A company's interview process is closely tied to their employer's brand and public image, and if it's awful, word will get out. In my experience, any company worth interviewing for should prioritize candidate experience above all else. But this listener's industry could also be playing a part in the consistently bad experiences. For example, in tech, most companies have invested resources into providing a generally good candidate experience. Other industries might not have the funding for or see the value in having established recruiting operations, which is unfortunate and doesn't really excuse the bad experience.

1:03:36A good candidate experience should definitely include, but is not limited to, one, the recruiter setting expectations around when you're going to hear back, two, actually following up with the decision, and three, providing feedback as to why you didn't get the job depending on the company. Long story short, good recruiters are empathetic and have great follow-through, but there are unfortunately just as many bad ones out there as good ones and they give the entire recruiting population a bad rep. So my advice for this person is number one, I would advise sending a thank you note to the hiring manager or whoever interviewed you over LinkedIn or email if you have it saying something along the lines of thanks so much for the interview.

1:04:15I enjoyed speaking with the team, et cetera, et cetera. I never heard back from recruiter regarding your decision. So I assume you decided to go with another candidate for this role. I appreciate your consideration and would be interested in exploring future roles within your company. Something simple. Probably a 50-50 chance that they'll reply, hopefully to at least give you some closure. A good manager would be mortified if they ever found out that you were just left hanging and would try to rectify the situation. Advice number two, be honest with future recruiters about your experience with past recruiters.

1:04:46I recommend being upfront at the beginning of the process by telling the recruiter something like, I just want to share that I've recently had a few poor experiences with recruiters and I've been left hanging after my second or third round and never heard back. I'm not saying you're going to do that, but I would really appreciate it if you could just get back to me after my interview with the decision as soon as possible. I'm exploring a number of other opportunities. I just want to ensure that our timelines align. And if I don't get the job, I would love to know what I need to work on in the future.

1:05:14Good recruiters are here to shepherd candidates through the interview process and get you the job. We want you to get the job. Oftentimes that comes down to building a good relationship with the candidate and earning their trust, which will increase the likelihood of them accepting the offer. Building trust, that starts in the first conversation, and being a partner to candidates throughout. And the last piece of advice, use Glassdoor for your research and share your experience. Warn future candidates about these companies' horrible recruiting practices. Hopefully, somebody at the company will see the review and actually make a change.

1:05:48And at the very least, other people will have realistic expectations going into the process. I'm crossing my fingers for you for company number four that you just interviewed with. On behalf of all recruiters, I'm so sorry you had such horrible experiences. It is unacceptable. If you want to vent or you have any questions for me, you can definitely reach out. And by the way, Jordan and I are happy to make that connection if you have any questions. Signed, a decent recruiter trying to be a straight shooter with all these suitors. Wow. So that was, first of all, that was great. I know that was kind of long.

1:06:17I hope that wasn't too much to get through, but I think this is a fountain of great advice. And I feel like we've got a masterclass in how to be a good candidate and a good recruiter in this environment. Obviously, when we get letters like this, we got to share them with you guys. We get tons of stuff, but we only have so much time on the show. Gabe, what I really love about this letter, I love a lot of things about it, but I really respond to this whole idea that treating candidates well is good business and that it actually benefits both parties. It's not actually in a company's interest to treat candidates like garbage and then leave them hanging because it saves you a few seconds of time or a few minutes of time.

1:06:52Building trust and rapport with them from the jump actually increases their chances of doing well in the interview and accepting the offer if it comes. I think it's so short-sighted of some of these companies to just be like, nah, we don't want to hire them. It doesn't matter. Screw them. They can email us all they want. Delete, delete, delete. I got to go to lunch. Totally. The thing I love the most from this letter is this idea that recruiters want you to get the job. I think it's so easy to treat these people as antagonists in the process, maybe because the job hunt is so stressful and we automatically think that the odds are stacked against us and they're on the other side of the table.

1:07:26But this reminded me that if they're calling you in, they're psyched about you and they're hoping you get the job so that they can deliver on all the work that they're investing in you. I think it's great. For sure. And how much better are you going to perform with that thought in your head as opposed to, oh, this recruiter is going to make my life harder. They're not really on my team. I've just got to get over all these hurdles if I have a shot. It's a great reframe. So thank you for sharing all that with us and thank you for listening for so long, since the old show, in fact. And thanks for sharing your wisdom with the rest of us.

1:07:56I hope you all enjoyed that. A little bit of a weird format this week, but I want to thank everyone who wrote in and stuck with us. Thank you so much. Go back and check out our episode with Terry Crews if you haven't yet. By the way, a lot of you have complained to me about the numbers going away in Apple Podcasts. That was not us. That was Apple. Thanks a lot, Apple, making sure that nobody can search any episodes other than manually thumbing through the feed of 900 or whatever's in there. It's fixed now. We did a little workaround. The workaround may break later, so no guarantees there, but we did a little workaround.

1:08:27The episode numbers should be back. Some apps may have numbers twice. Sorry, can't do much about that. And I fully expect that Apple is going to revert this annoying-ass change in six months or a year and break it again. So do keep me posted. Some of you lowered your reviews or gave us one-star reviews because the numbers were gone. Folks, that wasn't my doing. That was Apple. Please revise your review if you like the show. The numbers are back. Anyway, hopefully that makes things easier to search and find because we do run trailers where we tell you to search for an episode number. And now we actually have episode numbers.

1:09:02So fingers crossed. If you want to know how I managed to book all these great folks, it's all about my relationships, my network, my tiny habits that involve getting back to people in a timely manner. Check out our six-minute networking course. The course is free over on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com slash course. It is a great way to dig the well before you're thirsty, not spend a ton of time doing it, and really treat people well in a non-sort of transactional network-y gross way. So again, jordanharbinger.com slash course. A link to the show notes for the episode is at jordanharbinger.com.

1:09:35Transcripts are in the show notes, advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support this show all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Our AI chatbot is at jordanharbinger.com slash AI. You can find anything we've ever done on any feedback Friday or any interview and any promo code should show up as well. I'm at jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn and you can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi.

1:10:12Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love, and if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen. And we'll see you next time. We've got a trailer of our interview with Malcolm Gladwell, which is pretty timely right now. We'll discuss why the information we gather from face-to-face human interaction isn't as uniquely valuable as we think it is.

1:10:46And why television can actually make us worse at reading other people. Young African-American woman is in Texas, just has a job interview in a rural Texas town, Sandra Bland. and she's pulled over by a white police officer. Hello, ma 'am. They have a conversation. Do you mind putting out your cigarette, please? It quickly escalates. I want to remove you. I'm giving you a lawful order. Okay, you gonna get me out of my car? Get out. Drags her out of the car. I will light you up. Get out, now! Knock my head in the ground like an epilepsy, you mother... She's put in prison and three days later, she commits suicide in her cell.

1:11:15If she's in a Audi, her chances of being pulled over are lower. And if she's in an Audi with Texas plates, she's fine. Most of all, if she's white, there's no way he's pulling her over. And as I describe in the book, all of those inferences are deeply problematic. We have enormous confidence in our ability to draw meaningful conclusions about people based on very superficial evidence. Even though the plots of Friends are absurdly complex, no one in history has ever watched an episode of Friends and said, they lost me. Yeah, what is going on in the show? Yeah, never happened. They do that because they're trained actors.

1:11:51If you watch a lot of TV, you can come to the false impression that that's what's going on in your face. But in truth, that's not true at all. And a significant number of people are what are called mismatched. And that is that their facial expressions under certain circumstances do not match the way they feel on the inside. The Amanda Knox case, an American teenager goes to a year abroad in Italy and gets falsely accused of murdering her roommate. And that case is all about the fact that Amanda Knox is mismatched. They have another guy who clearly did it, and they drag her in. Why? Because she doesn't behave the way the Italian police and the British tabloid press think someone whose roommate has been murdered ought to behave.

1:12:30We are sending people to jail for years and years and years for crimes they had nothing to do with. Yeah, kids. I mean, she was like a college student, right? A college student, yeah. For more from Malcolm Gladwell, including how the misunderstandings between people and cultures invite conflict, I told you this was timely, check out episode 256 of The Jordan Harbinger Show. What if this was someone in your family that had a chronic illness that they could not get away from? Millions of Americans live with a disease that has no cure. I was diagnosed with a rare form of sarcoma. The most immediate findings indicated that I should lose my leg.

1:13:08It ended up taking four clinical trials in 25 years to get me to this point. Cures are within reach. if we invest in funding for life-saving medical research that's needed to find them. Even if they're unsuccessful in my treatment, that they will have learned from my treatment that will be able to allow others to stand on my shoulders to be able to be helped. Join the fight for cures. Tell your elected representatives to support American medical research. Visit unitedforcures.org slash action to send a letter today. Paid for by United for Cures Action.