843: Elie Honig | How the Rich Get Away with Crime

21:06And then out in the parking lot, another one of his friends ran up and shot him. And his uncle, Frank Heidel, the victim's uncle, was this guy, Danny Marino, not the NFL player, but a gangster Danny Marino, who authorized the murder. And to me, the fact that Frank Heidel was 31 years old, the fact that his uncle had authorized the murder, the fact that it was done in such a cold-blooded manner, makes it a little different than two captains in a turf war or something like that. So I do think it makes a difference who your victim is and what the circumstances are. That's interesting. I figured it had to make, because it's a little distasteful.

21:36If somebody, let's say they were just a butcher and they killed a bunch of civilians or they liked it, they took a lot of pleasure out of killing someone's whole family or something. It would be harder to give that person a plea deal than somebody who just killed, like Sammy the Bull, killed 19 people or whatever he's copped to. But he basically said, everybody I killed was a bad guy just like me. That's what he told me. And I guess I believe that. Yeah, I'm not sure they're all as bad as Sammy, but probably not. Right. I mean, that would be that would be hard, but not like just random. It wasn't like, oh, we want to get this guy's jewelry.

22:08So we killed him. And then we killed all of his kids, too. It was more like, yeah, this guy was another gangster. And so I killed him. I mean, he is not exactly a saint. I don't know if I would flip somebody who was involved in killing a civilian or, you know, but but I'll tell you the closest I came to that. I did a case where the Genovese family was putting together home breakings, home invasions, right? Violent home invasions where people got zip tied and beaten, never killed. And what they would do is they weren't just randomly going to homes. They were targeting either drug dealers who they knew kept a lot of cash or drugs in their home or owners of cash businesses.

22:41And in fact, this is all public. I can say this. Do you remember the TV show Orange County Choppers? Oh yeah. The motorcycle guys, right? Yeah. With the cutoff sleeves. So they were among the victims. So this crew of Genovese guys, again, this is, I'm not speaking out of school here. There's public record on all this. They did a whole string of robberies, but one of the people they targeted, they got a tip that his name was Paul Tuttle. The owner of Orange County Choppers was keeping hundreds of thousands of dollars from like t-shirt sales. They would go to these motorcycle shows and make cash sales of merchandise.

23:12And then rather than reporting it and paying taxes, keep it like in a pillowcase. So these guys got a tip that this was happening. And so they would put together these crews. In fact, they would subcontract essentially the home invasions to Albanian gangsters. And so these teams of four or five or six Albanian gangsters combined with younger Genovese guys would go in, whoever was in the house would get tied up and usually beaten, sometimes pretty badly. And then they would steal whatever they could steal. We flipped one of the guys who was involved in doing that. And that was tough because they were targeting innocent civilians.

23:46They didn't kill them, thankfully. That was never part of the plan. But that made a tougher trial, a tougher case, because now you're, look, like it or not, you're sort of getting in bed with these guys in front of a jury, and you own them. You own what they did. So that's definitely trickier. Yeah, that's, wow, that's really interesting. I remember when I was really young, I helped a friend's dad. He sold, literally sold like Backstreet Boys t-shirts at concerts in one of those vendor cart kind of situations. And I remember we were helping him take the money back to his car. And I'm thinking this is really unsafe.

24:21And I, at one time, had worn, you know, those Dockers pants that were popular in like the early 90s. Of course. I had those on and I probably had$35 ,000 shoved in the pockets, my other pockets, in a bag, in my, and I was just thinking, there's gotta be a better way to do this. Yeah. And there is, by the way. Yeah, it's called doing it through bank accounts and electronic transactions, but then you gotta report it. So I'm not gonna say whether your friend's dad was reporting his backstreet sales. Probably not, but also maybe an armed guard would have been a good idea with a bag or a box. Yeah, that's what these guys were doing.

24:54And, you know, they targeted, they had a scrap metal dealer, but drug dealers were their big targets because what are you going to do? You're a drug dealer, you get robbed, you're going to call the cops? Right, absolutely not. Absolutely not. I mean, drug dealers rob each other all the time, yeah. You know, I think, 2020 hindsight, I do believe the plan was he dropped it in an after-hours cash drop at a bank and it was all in these weird zip bags that I remember were very specifically something that I had never seen and they locked, but we didn't really, we ran out of, we only had a few of those and the rest of it was like, shove all these hundreds of dollars into your pockets and try not to drop any.

25:30They'll rob those by the way as well. I did a case against some Gambinos who were specialized in stealing those after hours bank drop boxes. They would use a gaffing hook, like which is the fishing device. I'm not really like a fit, but it's basically like a long pole with a hook on the end. And one of my friends did this trial, I was supervising him and they had that as evidence in front of the jury. And apparently one of the breaks, the defendant goes, you're holding that thing all wrong. Like, let me show you, no, the way you do it is you hold it like this and you leverage it in, but they'll steal anything, man.

26:00They'll steal the, they'll uproot those things right out from the bank drive-through. Geez, oh, I see. They were reaching in there with that thing to get the, that's okay, that's pretty clumsy, but clever, I suppose. It's primitive, but it used to work for them, yeah. You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Ellie Honig. We'll be right back. If you're wondering how I managed to book all these great authors, thinkers, and creators every single week, it is because of my network. And I'm teaching you how to build your network for free over at jordanharbinger.com slash course.

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26:59Come join us. You'll be in smart company. You can find the course at jordanharbinger.com slash course. Now, back to Ellie Honig. What about wiretaps? How do these work? Because you hear about this all the time and you think like, okay, they're sitting in the equivalent of NASA mission control and it's all very futuristic, but I doubt it. There's two kinds of wiretaps, just generally speaking. You get up on someone's phone. You have to go to a judge. It's a pain in the ass. You have to establish probable cause, whole long affidavit. And you have to show basically that you have probable cause that you will get evidence of an ongoing crime being discussed on that wiretap.

27:34It actually is kind of NASA-ish. If you've ever been in the wire room at 26 Fed, which is the FBI headquarters in Manhattan, it's basically like dozens of individual carols, you know what I mean? Like desks, cubicles, and you're live on that phone. And it's boredom. It's long stretches of just reading the paper and eating Doritos. And then boom, it rings. And you put on the headphones. I'm wearing goofy headphones like that. And you're listening and recording in real time. And sometimes they're duds. Sometimes you go up on a phone that's already been dropped. I once went up on a phone that was, the guy just used it to talk to his girlfriend, nothing.

28:07But especially in drug cases, you will get really good conversations. In drug cases, they like to use, they use code. I was gonna ask you about that. What happens if somebody's like, I want four T-shirts, like okay, you know you're talking. Yeah, well that's funny you mentioned it. They're not gonna go, I need four kilos. The most common slang is three things. T-shirts, tickets, and girls. So they'll go, hey, do you have any girls? Oh, I got six girls coming in tomorrow, but I only have one right now. you know but um we did one case where they were saying cars oh i have 14 cars i only need four cars and in one instance the guy's like hey how many cars do you have and the other guy's like i got two and a half cars right now it's like all right that one that one i think you're probably not talking about actual cars yeah mob wiretaps are kind of tricky because they're never going to say anything the most they're going to say is hey did you talk to the guy uh-huh all right hey did you do that thing uh-huh i mean so it can help a little bit the other kind of wiretap which is a little different legally, is when someone's wearing a wire for you.

29:00Now, it's not like the movies where they actually have a physical, you know, you rip open their shirt, and you're, ah, he's wearing a wire. There's much more sophisticated technological ways now. But I've had guys wearing, who are wired up for us for six months at a time. And they just, we would tell them, when you go out, you just hit on. And when you get home, you hit off. Don't mess with it in between. And so you end up with hours and hours of reporting. This one guy who flipped for us and wore a wire, a driver, a longtime driver for the Gambino family. Like, first of all, we had these like Austin Powers moments where you'd be listening to the tape and you just hear him like relieving himself.

29:31Sure. Taking the lead. Oh, you don't have to be like so expressive. Yeah. But he did get a guy to confess a full murder. He decided to take a shot. Now, you don't you don't ask questions in the mob, right? Like if you and I were both in the mob and I was like, hey, Jordan, did you ever were you ever involved when they killed that guy? Were you involved? Like if I asked you that, you'd be like, this guy's a rat right away. But how he gave it a shot and he said to this one guy, Todd LaBarca, again, this is all public record, they had gotten hot dogs on the street from like a hot dog, dirty water hot dog vendor.

30:02And how he just goes, Todd, I got to ask you, like, no offense, like, let me just ask you, like, do you know anything about the murder? This guy, Marty Bosshart, had been murdered. Do you know anything about the Bosshart murder? And LaBarca just goes, yeah, I was in on it. It was me and this guy and this guy. And we were like, holy crap. So, you know, we solved the murder that way. So wiretaps are a lot of work, but that is a golden source of evidence. God, that seems so blatant that he just, like, did he have a reason? I read about this in the paper and I want to know who killed this guy. Like, that's a little bit of a stretch.

30:31Exactly. I mean, we said to Howie, like, are you nuts? And he goes, again, our cooperator, Howie was like, I just had a feeling. Like, Todd's not a hard ass. I had a feeling Todd wanted to brag about it. I just thought I could get it out of him. Actually, when he's done after that recording, Howie gets back in his car and he's going to turn off the device. And you're supposed to do a little standard preamble, postamble, say, Howie Santos, you know, February 9th, 3 p.m., signing off. And Howie goes, Howie Santos, whatever date, just solve the Boss Hart murder. Wow. Sign it off. So, like, you know, you don't quite want him being that entrepreneurial, but he got the job done for us.

31:08I mean, Todd Labarca is in jail now for a long time for that murder based on that one conversation he had while eating a hot dog. Wow. Wow. Wow. So yeah, it does make sense that there's a whole lot of nothing on there. I would imagine there's a lot of juicy stuff though, occasionally. Is there anything that's funny? I mean, besides dudes taking giant pisses on there, there's got to be a few of the funnier stories. So there's a hell of a lot of nothing. I mean, it's 98 % nothing. It's just like, to an extent, like when they would get together, it would just be the same as any group of 11 dudes hanging out on a Sunday.

31:36So they were all like degenerate sports gamblers. So like we have entire record. I'm an Eagle, Philadelphia Eagles fan. And so there was one recording where they were watching the game where the Eagles lost to the Arizona Cardinals in the NFC championship game. The Cardinals then played the Steelers and the Superbowl, like Larry Fitzgerald. But I'm like, I'm listening. I'm like, oh shit, this is that game. Like I got to relive this game where my team lost the NFC championship game. There's all sorts of stupid talk about drugs. You know, they're vain. These guys, they're very concerned with hair dye and getting manicures and tans.

32:07I I mean, you know, maybe somewhat stereotypical, but there's a lot of talk about that and getting their chest waxed and stuff. Like you're just listening. Like this is, this is what they care about. I'll tell you one other thing that I love. These guys are actually pretty sophisticated legally. Okay. And one of our, I can't remember if it was Howie, I think it was Howie, the guy I'm talking about. There's one conversation where one of their friends have been convicted in the Southern District of New York. And someone's like, well, he, now he gets to appeal. He's in the third circuit. Someone else goes, no, no, no.

32:34Philly's the third circuit. New York's the second circuit. And I'm like, well, that's exactly right. They know their federal circuits. They know, you know, so I'm impressed by that. Yeah. That's a guy who's been to a lot of, through a lot of trials and had a lot of lawyers. Yeah. Yeah. These guys know, they know, listen, they know who the prosecutors are. They know who the judges are. Like they're sophisticated consumers of this, of this system. That would be a little scary. Did it ever concern you that there were guys on wiretaps being like, ah, that Ellie Honig guy. Yeah. You got to watch out for him.

33:02But if, you know, I'll tell you what, he, he, he flipped so-and-so, he must offered him a good deal. It's like, I don't know if I want these guys to know much about me. There were definitely wiretaps of guys talking about me and the FBI agents I would work with. There's one where they're calling them MFers, this, you know, whatever. But I mean, I am not, you know, I've never really been afraid by these guys, partially because what we were talking about before. One of the mob rules, the mob has its rules, and some of them are really observed. Some of them, well, let me put it this way. A lot of them are broken.

33:32You're not supposed to deal in drugs. A lot of them deal in drugs. They think it's beneath them, but there's so much money in it, they do it. You're not supposed to mess with another guy's wife or sister. That one gets broken from time to time. But one of the ones they don't break is you're not supposed to deal with a prosecutor. You're not supposed to threaten or go after a prosecutor, a cop, or a judge. And that's not because they're good guys. That's because it's bad business, right? Like if you take out a prosecutor, it's not like the case goes away. They'll just plug in the next prosecutor and all holy hell will rain down on you.

33:59The entire FBI will come, you know, swarm your house and your parents' house. And it's just, you know, they used to do this a little bit in the 70s, but that hasn't happened in a long time. And also, strangely, Jordan, I had pretty good relationships, even with the guys I prosecuted. I mean, I prosecuted John Gotti Jr. And he's written positively about me in his book and said I was a good prosecutor and fair and effective in front of the jury and all that. Because I never made it personal. I wasn't like, it was business. Like, I never was like, I hate you. And I'm going to destroy you. I was like, you're a human being, I'm going to try to prove your guilt.

34:31I probably will. And, you know, I never wagged fingers in their faces or tried to humiliate them. I tried to prove their guilt and send them to jail, but they respected that. I guess if you still show the so-called respect that they pretend to appreciate, then, you know, whatever at that point. Oddly. Yeah, oddly. Yeah. Back to the code thing. It seems really dumb to say girls because then it just sounds like a prostitution operation that's still worth investigating. Yeah. Yeah. I guess you're right. Right. Exactly. Like we're selling girls. Do you have any girls yeah i mean lower level crime i guess they would gladly plead to that if they could because drug the penalties for drugs much but like why use any crime when you can be like do you have any potatoes yeah i got a bunch of potatoes you know like no one cares about that's a very good question that's a very good question yeah i don't know 14.5 cars or t-shirts doesn't yeah nobody wants half a t-shirt half a car yeah ten thousand dollars for half a t-shirt right wow these were these must be really what are they dolce and gabbana i mean i guess when the jury hears that, you don't need to break the code because the whole myth is like, well, now they can't prove you're talking about drugs.

35:30And it's like, well, he got caught with 14 and a half kilos. And the day before he said, I have 14.5 cars. So we can't say directly that he copped to it. But you as a non-moron can probably infer that now T-shirts means cars or T-shirts means drugs. Exactly right. And you know, that's an element of the criminal justice system that people don't always understand is you as a non-moron, you're allowed to use common sense. I mean, judges tell juries, you are allowed to use your common sense. You know, you are allowed to draw inferences. Like the example judges always give juries is, look, you can look out the window and see rain drops falling.

36:04You will know it's raining. But let's say that all the shades were drawn and you saw someone walk in the back door of this courtroom wearing wet boots and shaking out an umbrella. You are allowed to infer from that, that it's raining. You are allowed to use, maybe a sink exploded on them while they happen to be, who knows? But like, you can use your common sense. People think juries are sort of mechanical or robotic, but no, I mean, common sense is one of the most powerful tools that juries have and they're supposed to use. I'm curious about mob lawyers. Lawyers work for their client usually, right?

36:34So if your client is the whole mob, who are you loyal to, the mob or the guy who you're representing? So I write about this in the book because this is a perfect example of something the mob does, but so do a lot of corporations and powerful politicians. First of all, it's funny that a lot of lawyers who represent a lot of mobsters, most lawyers who I consider mob lawyers get really pissed if you say, if you refer to them as mob lawyers. I would assume so. With some exception. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's not super flattering. Although there is a guy named Murray Richmond who's sort of a legendary figure.

37:05He's 85 years old. His nickname is Don't Worry Murray. Legend is they modeled Better Call Saul after Don't Worry Murray. But Murray, I interviewed him on my podcast. I did a murder trial against Murray. He represented a boss of the Genovese family. And I asked Murray straight up, I said, do you get offended by being called the mob lawyer? He said, no, why would I? I represent mobsters, but most of them do. But you know, one thing that is very common in the mob is the family and the bosses will select and pay for the lawyers for everyone else around them. Now they do that to make it essentially impossible for these guys to flip.

37:38Because even if they want to flip, even if it's in their best interest, they know I can't go to this lawyer. He'll just report me up the chain. And so I tell the story in the book about a time when a guy, a lower ranking guy wanted to flip, but knew he couldn't do it through his lawyer. So we sent his girlfriend on a sort of like backdoor mission to tell us that he wanted to flip. And we had to go into court and do this sort of cloak and dagger thing called shadow counsel, where the judge secretly appoints a lawyer who does not have a conflict of interest. And that's what happened in this case.

38:05And we managed to shake this guy loose, but it was really tough. But corporations do this all the time. And it's not necessarily bad or evil. If there's an investigation of a large corporation, usually the company itself will pay for lawyers for the employees. Now, a lot of times employees want that. It's expensive to get a lawyer. But it also has the natural effect of making it really difficult to cooperate because where's the loyalty to? Where is the lawyer truly looking out for the best interest of the individual or the organization? And here's another point that I make. You know, I'm critical of prosecutors in the book to an extent as well.

38:37the Justice Department, the United States Justice Department, up until 2008, their policy was, if you're a corporation or a political organization and you're providing attorneys for all your people, we're going to count that as a strike against you when it comes to deciding whether you've been cooperative or not, because we know that that makes it less likely and more difficult for those people to cooperate. But in 2008, DOJ just changed that policy. They said, actually, we're fine with it. You can do it. No penalty. And that has been the policy of DOJ from 2008 through now, through the Obama administration, through the Trump administration, through the Biden administration.

39:08And what that does is it helps bosses and powerful people protect themselves. And it makes harder for prosecutors to flip the underlings. It seems quite confusing that, OK, so you're a mobster, you get arrested, you don't choose your own lawyer, the Gambino lawyer or whatever just shows up. And then you're not going to flip because if you even thought about flipping or talked about flipping or entertain the idea of talking to the feds, your lawyer is just going to go, yeah, he is trying to cut a deal and you never make it out of jail or you never make it to the courthouse. So the shadow counsel, I assume that's only in very special cases.

39:40And does their counsel then try to fight that? Because it seems like if you're a mob lawyer, you want, you don't want shadow counsel. You're going to be like, this is unconstitutional or something. Yeah. Shadow counsel is a very tricky process. And the whole point is you're doing it secretly. So normally rule of thumb is you are not allowed to go to a judge, what we call ex parte, meaning as a prosecutory case, you can't individually contact the judge unless the defense lawyer is there and vice versa. So what we had to do in this case is this guy who wanted to flip, his name is Anthony Russo. He sent his girlfriend secretly to the FBI agent.

40:11FBI agent comes to me one day. He goes, guess what? Anthony Russo wants to flip, but his girlfriend says he can't do it because of this lawyer. So I had to draft up papers for the judge saying secret, you know, under seal papers saying, here's the deal, judge. We have a good faith reason to believe Anthony Russo wants to flip. His girlfriend informed us of this and the judge signed it. And the judge was like, tell me what happens. I'm interested. And so the judge secretly appoints another lawyer off what we call the CJA wheel, meaning like established, trustworthy defense lawyers that the court will use.

40:41And he had this lawyer, Jim DeVita, who was a former prosecutor. Jim DeVita secretly met with Anthony Russo. Anthony Russo said, yes, I do want to flip. They're right. DeVita came back and reported to the judge and us. They're right. He does want to flip and the judge said, okay, I'm appointing you the shadow counsel. Now you're the lawyer, the other guy's out. We whisked him out of jail in the middle of the night. Like we were like, we pulled him right out and put him right in the witness protection program and basically stole him away, not stolen, but took him out of the clutches of the mob.

41:10Wow. That does seem a little bit cloak and dagger. Like you said, if somebody from a mob family though, if they're in prison, they're in jail, how do you even get shadow counsel to go and talk to them without everybody else knowing it? Because if you're in prison and they're like, whoa, that's one of the Gambino guys. Like, don't mess with that guy. And it's like, oh yeah, there's other Gambino associates and affiliates in here and the cops are maybe sort of, you're not sure about them. How do you then have so-and-so trustworthy defense lawyer? It's like, that's not the Gambino lawyer. Why is he here?

41:39Oh, he must be flipping. Like that's putting two and two together. You talked about inferences. That's a wet umbrella with wet boots, if I've ever heard it. It's a great question. And to add to that point, Jordan, everyone in prison knows every single thing that everyone else does. I mean, I remember I had a cooperator once say to me, you take a piss in a different urinal than you usually use. Everyone's going to know it and think something's up, right? Like they are so in each other's business. I don't actually know exactly what Davida did in this case. He, I would guess he either, you know, if you have a lawyer meeting, I mean, there's a special room there, but like you get privacy, but people would see him sitting with Jim.

42:13So I suspect either prison officials have sort of off bounds rooms, you know, that can't be seen. But if they pulled Anthony into one of them, people would know. Right. I suspect that they might have done it through the phone. In other words, you could set it up so that Anthony, you know, the inmate doesn't have to say anything. You just have him call the number and then you do ask him questions where all he's got to say is yes, no, yes, no. So that people around him listening to his phone call can't hear him. You know, like, so if I was the lawyer, I'm just thinking, I'm just hypothesizing here.

42:41I maybe would have him call my number or call his girlfriend and I would be with the girlfriend and I would say, Anthony, my name is Jim DeVita. The court has appointed me as your lawyer. is it true that you're interested in cooperating? Yes. Is it true that you don't feel like you can trust so-and-so who your current lawyer is? That's right. Okay, do you want me to go back to the prosecutors and the judge and tell them this? Yes. Okay, got it. You know what I mean? I'm guessing, I'm guessing. I don't know specifically how they did it in this case. It's gotta be kinda tricky. Like, oh, you're gonna go talk to your lawyer on the phone.

43:09Okay, so you get a private little legal cabin. We don't know who you're talking to. And yeah, man, it seems very dangerous, right? Because then you gotta hope like your girlfriend isn't being monitored by these other guys or? Yep. Oh, man. No, we were terrified. Look, for the couple days it took to get this done, we were terrified he would get killed. Like word would leak out somehow or someone would see something. I mean, people get killed in jail. And, but we couldn't move him until we had confirmed. And as soon as we did, we just, boom, pulled him out of there, threw him upstate, far away from here.

43:37I want to talk a little about public defenders because you mentioned this before, but they kind of have a rep like, oh, you took the free lawyer. This is bad. But I've heard people say, I've heard actual lawyers say that a lot of times some of the pricey$500-plus-an-hour lawyers, they'll call a public defender or a former public defender to come and consult on a case and just farm it out and take the difference because they don't know what to do. Meanwhile, a public defender's had 1 ,000 cases that are just like yours. Public defenders are really, really good at what they do. The federal public defenders in Manhattan are as good as we are, and we are an arrogant bunch, so that is saying something.

44:13There's a lot less of them as part of the problem, them. But you know how often it happens that someone gets a really good public defender or what I said before, that CJA wheel, which is sort of like very established lawyers who are willing to take cases for a court amount fee. It's like 150 bucks an hour. So it's sort of quasi public defender. You know how often I've seen a defendant get one of those lawyers who's really, really good and then fire him and then go pay$40 ,000 for some schnook. I mean, it happens all the time. State level and county level public defenders who I dealt with in my time as a state prosecutor Also, there's plenty of them who are excellent, but they have to deal with a problem, which is just overwhelming caseload.

44:52And a lot of times they're just treading water. And just imagine if you had 200 clients, like how could you possibly give each of them individualized attention? So it is a little bit more of just like a conveyor belt in the state and county system of just guilty plea, set it up, guilty plea, guilty plea, guilty plea. But by and large, I think it's absolutely false and a bum rap to say that for people who believe that public defenders are somehow subpar. I mean, there are some private lawyers who are fantastic, but they're, by and large, like, you're in good hands, especially if you get a federal public defender.

45:22This seems like this still doesn't wipe out the advantages that wealthy people have. Can we talk about that? How do rich people have an advantage in the justice, in the criminal justice system? So first of all, you can pay for whatever lawyers you want. And I don't always believe that more expensive lawyers are better. I mean, there's plenty of examples. I use some in the book of guys who spend millions and millions of dollars. El Chapo, Chapo Guzman, Joaquin Guzman spent$5 million on his lawyers. He's doing life. I mean, there's nothing, you know, no lawyer could have got him out of that. Raj Rajaratnam, who did a major insider trading case and was convicted by my office, not me, but my friends years ago, spent$40 million, four zero on his defense.

45:59He was convicted and got 11 years, which I think at the time was the highest or second highest sentence ever in a securities fraud case. Wow. So spending more money on lawyers doesn't always mean better representation, but it sure as hell means more representation. I mean, and the fact of the matter is going to trial, hiring a defense lawyer is crazy expensive. I think more than most. I mean, if you want to hire a half decent or better private defense lawyer in Manhattan, you're going to start with a quarter million dollars. Wow. And then they usually charge you double that if you're going to go to trial.

46:29And so we would know as prosecutors, we would have cases where we would go, this guy can't, even sometimes defense lawyers would tell us, they would go, yeah, I'm retained through trial, but no way he's going to be able to pay me to do a trial. So now how does that play out? It doesn't really have much of an impact when a defense lawyer is pounding the table going, we'll see you at trial if you're like, yeah, I know he can't afford trial. You know what I mean? So that tends to tilt the leverage and the negotiation table. You know, there's other advantage, paying for other lawyers. I said, right, like paying for your own lawyers is fine, but the real powerhouses pay for lawyers for everyone around them to keep them from flipping.

47:00You can post bail. I mean, a lot of our states have cash bail based systems where no matter what crime you're charged with, you're going to get some cash bail. And if you're rich, you can pay it even if you're a risk. Even if you're no risk, you get stuck behind bars. Those are other advantages. I had cases where Danny Marino, the guy I talk about in the book who we convicted of murder, had also got hit with a $1 million fine, basically a forfeiture. And his lawyer brought to sentencing a check for$1 million and handed it to me. I didn't even know what to do with it. Usually you're just supposed to give it to the marshals.

47:32I was like, oh my God, I'm holding a check for$1 million. I was like, we should have got 10 times more. How easy was it for this guy to pay? So money definitely has its advantages as does the insulation from sitting at the top of the pyramid, which we talked about before. And there's advantages to being politically powerful as well. When you have to post bail, and I feel like I should know this, but don't they give you an outrageous amount, but you pay 10 % of it? How does that work? So there's different ways that you do that. In the federal system, no one actually, like everyone just heard that Sam Bankman-Fried, for example, right?

48:03Yeah. Had to post$250 million bail. He didn't post$250 million. Basically, they just took properties worth that and you sign them over like as a surety, right? So if you don't show. But typically in a state cash bail system, if someone's held on a million dollars bail, what they would do is go to a bail bondsman, post 10 % of that. The bail bonds company then actually, in some cases, doesn't even post it. It's just sort of released on credit. There's a cozy relationship with the bail bonds in the courts. But yeah, usually what you have to do is post 10 % of it. We changed that system. We overhauled the whole system in Jersey when I was there.

48:36We went from a cash bail system to a risk-based bail system, which has actually been in contrast to New York, which completely screwed it up. We did it right in New Jersey because we have a tougher system where you're allowed to hold on to dangerous people. And so we've had a great success in Jersey. We tried to tell them, I wrote an op-ed entitled, New York, you're doing it wrong. Do it how we did it in Jersey. New Yorkers don't like to take advice from New Jerseyites, but they should have here. That's true. I mean, I'm going to New York in a few days and people keep saying like, it's more dangerous now because of the bail thing.

49:03Well, I agree that there's a real crime problem in this city. I mean, I think it's over attributed to the bail reform. Bail reform has been a disaster in New York. There's no question about that. And again, we tried to warn them. But yeah, no, look, this city is, it's true empirically, but I'll tell you just walking through the streets here, I mean, even touristy Penn Station type areas, like there is an air of menace and you will see people being aggressive. I mean, you'll smell weed everywhere you go here, you know, like vaping or whatever. It could use a little bit of a return to normalcy. I do think that's due.

49:34Yeah, I moved 10 years ago. And back then it was still kind of like post Giuliani before Giuliani was whatever it is now. but it was like almost the whole city felt relatively safe. Even Alphabet City, which is supposed to be terrible, was kind of like, all right, it's fine. You know, wouldn't walk around at 2 a.m., but it's fine. Yeah, this is a problem that DAs, and I'm friends with the DA here, Alvin Bragg, he's a former colleague of mine. On day one in job, and his job, I like Alvin, he issued a memo that ended up being sort of disastrous, announcing certain crimes that would not be prosecuted, certain crimes that they would not seek high bail amounts on.

50:06I mean, even if that's your policy, as a prosecutor, you do have the right and the ability to say, we're not going to go after certain crimes because we don't think they're a good investment of resources. But why announce that? I mean, why tell people it's a free for all? So I think things are slightly improving, but there's a real issue here. So one of the advantages that wealthy people have is they can afford to go to trial. It sounds like what you're saying. So if you get a bad deal on the table, you say, fine, I'll just go to trial. But if the prosecutor knows you can't afford a trial, then like, yeah, sure, you'll go to trial and you'll get a better deal.

50:36But if you can afford it, then the prosecutor has to go, oh crap, I'm gonna spend two years back and forth with this guy and hundreds of hours and then prove it, or I can just sweeten the deal for him right now in this very room and give him a little bit of a lesser, a lighter punishment? You're exactly right. So a couple factors there. One is, I said before how state level, state and county level public defenders have enormous just case pressure, case load pressure. So do prosecutors. Now much more on the state and local level. When you're a fed, it's like you're living the good life. Like you can control how many cases you have.

51:09You can spend eight months, a year and a half investigating a case. It's all on your timetable when you're a Fed, not when you're a state and county level. Cases just fly at you. Whatever the cops pick up that day is yours. And as a result, there is pressure to plead out cases rather than spending the time, the resources, the energy trying cases. And I tell the story, and especially if you know the difference in the intensity of representation from highly paid, big firm representation to just like solo practitioners. I mean, I tried cases in front of solo practitioners or two man shops where they were very good lawyers and know how to argue in front of a jury and formidable adversaries.

51:44I did one case against a big firm that had a lot of former federal prosecutors in it, and they tortured us every single day. Motions, motions, motions. It was every night they would file a motion to dismiss at 2.30, 4 in the morning. And I remember I tell a story in the book about one morning during the trial, I went to like a little convenience store right by the courthouse and I saw the paralegal for the firm and I said, no motion last night. What's up? It was like, you know, it was like seven o 'clock in the morning. He goes, check your email when you get into the office. Sure enough, it's 645.

52:14There was another motion to dismiss. I mean, they had like five or six people on their defense team. They were spilling onto two tables. I mean, we won that case. We got a conviction, but it was very close. I thought we might lose it. And if you just added up the number of hours, manpower hours that went into that case, I'm sure it was 10 times what a lot of solo practitioners can put in. You know, again, it doesn't necessarily equate plainly with winning and losing, but given the choice, sure as hell helps. This is the Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Ellie Honig. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors.

52:54All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. And you can always search for a sponsor using the AI chatbot on the website as well, jordanharbinger.com slash AI. Thanks for supporting those who support the show. Now for the rest of my conversation with Ellie Honig. What about donating money to political candidates to get special treatment? I know you mentioned that in the book, but it just seems, how is that not blatant corruption? You know, how does this work? I assume the donor doesn't just say, all right, I'm going to pay for some campaign dinners, but you shouldn't prosecute me for the child trafficking that I'm doing.

53:29Right. That would be a quid pro quo. Yeah. But the point is, as you say, like nobody ever does it that way. And so, you know, I was lucky in that I only ever worked for appointed, not elected prosecutors. All federal prosecutors are appointed. New Jersey happens to be one of I think it's seven states where we are. The governor picks the AG. It's not elected. But most state and county level prosecutors, DAs, AGs are elected. And to me, the mix of politics and fundraising with prosecution is just toxic for all the reasons you say. I mean, I tell stories in the book about Cy Vance, who was the Manhattan DA, a very critical of.

54:04He took donations from defense lawyers and he oftentimes then would give their clients favorable deals or no prosecution at all. And now look, even if one does not believe, and I don't think there's any reason to think Cy Vance was bribed per se. He's not a criminal. He's not a maniac. But still, it looks horrible. How do you know that on some level, he's not maybe giving people slightly more favorable treatment? He actually tried to give back the donations after it came out. And then he took bigger donations from the same people later, which is so ridiculous. And also, you would ask the question, what do you think these defense lawyers are getting out of this?

54:38What do they think they're getting out of this? They're not, right? Why are they giving money? And it just creates conflict of interest left and right. Like if you're investigating someone who then goes and hires someone who did donate to you, if you're investigating somebody who donated to your opponent or whose lawyers donated to your primary opponent, I mean, there's so much potential there. And so we're actually seeing slightly more DAs who are saying, I will not take donations from other lawyers or other things, which I guess, which do mitigate the risks a bit. But to me, I am very much against, there's nothing we can do about it.

55:09But if I ruled the world, I would absolutely get rid of elected prosecutors and judges. for that matter. The notion of elected judges is crazy to me too, for exactly these reasons. I agree with you there. I've seen some elected judges who are woefully unqualified or just do really bad stuff, but are good at campaigning or are like charming. And you're just thinking like, holy crap, this moron has a memorable name. That's the only reason he's up here. Also, I can't imagine you have to make very consequential decisions when you're a prosecutor or a judge. Prosecutor, do I charge this guy or not?

55:39Do I give him a plea deal or not? Or judges, do I uphold this conviction or not? What do I sentence this guy to? You cannot tell me that in the back of their heads, they're not thinking about, forget about donations, but just how will this play with the voting public? Will this be popular or unpopular with the voting public? And your job as a prosecutor or a judge is not to please the masses. Your job is to administer justice. You mentioned before knowing where the bodies are, sometimes literally, and showing how bad or evil these cooperators can be on the stand. And do you present this to the jury?

56:11You have to do this in a specific way, right? Because you would want to frame it in your way, not have the opposing counsel be like, you're going to trust this guy? Wait till I tell you what this guy did. Absolutely. We prosecutors, we get to go first. We put our cases on first. We get to examine the witnesses first. And so as a matter of strategy and tactics, we will put all the dirty laundry out there first. Our pitch to the jury is this guy is an open book. And that's why it's sort of counterintuitive. But if you ever see a prosecutor putting on testimony from his own cooperator, it'll be like, tell me about the first crime you ever committed.

56:46Tell me about all the murders you committed. And you're like, why is the prosecutor eliciting this from his own witness? Because you have to put it out. You have to be able to tell the jury. He's an open book. We brought that up. You can't just wait on it. And then the defense lawyer comes up on cross and the jury's going, oh, my God. And, you know, there are standard lines of argument. The way we always would argue it to a jury is you heard testimony in this case from Anthony Aralada. This isn't about if Anthony Aralada is a sinner or a saint. He's a sinner. He'll tell you he's a sinner. And it's not about whether you like Anthony Aralada.

57:13You shouldn't like him. You don't need to like him. It's about whether you believe his testimony. And when we say believe his testimony, it doesn't just mean, do you believe him watching him sitting there? It means, does the other evidence back him up? How on earth could Anthony Aralada have known that somebody stayed at the Rye Marriott Hotel and look at this, here's a record showing the co-conspirator stayed at the Rye Marriott Hotel that night? You know, and so that's how you have to build it. Like, it's not about whether you like this guy. You shouldn't like him. You shouldn't want him to babysit your kids.

57:40It's about whether you credit him, given all the other evidence. And then defense lawyers say, he's a sleaze. He's a criminal. He's just trying to look out for himself. He's making things up. And I should say, I never had an experience or even heard of an experience in my office where a cooperator falsely implicated somebody in something. But what is common is they like to leave people out. So if a cooperator, let's say, committed a crime and people, you know, A, B, C, and D were involved, but D is maybe his best friend or D is maybe his father-in-law and he doesn't want that person to get in trouble.

58:09They will leave people out. And when I got a little more experience, I learned how to deal with this. You don't want them lying to you. And so I would say, if there's somebody who you are reluctant to tell me about, don't lie to me about it. We'll call a timeout. You'll talk to your lawyer. Your lawyer will tell me there's someone here he doesn't want to talk about. We'll work it out. But usually I'll give the person a pass. Usually it's like the wife, not a murder, but the wife had some role in handling money for them or something. And if it's a cooperator, you can usually give them a pass on that.

58:35But it is way more common for prosecutors. It's quite common for them to leave people out where they don't want to implicate. That's interesting. I hadn't thought about that, but you kind of have to agree to that because no one's going to go, yeah, it was me and these four guys, one of which is my son. So I'm not going to tell you that, but I might write on these other. It's like, okay, fine. Just we'll leave out the fact that it was this. We'll take the other three guys because otherwise we're not going to get anything. Yeah. But their story has to be the full story. They'll have to testify. And then the cross will be, but they gave your son a pass.

59:03And the guy will go, yeah, they did. And I'll go, yeah, we did. That was part of the deal. It's kind of like how Eminem was in that rap battle in eight mile where he mocks himself relentlessly. And then the other guy comes up and he's like, crap, what am I going to say now? Okay. I'm stealing that. And I'm going to use that from now on. But it's true. We call it pulling the sting, right? It's like, oh, it stings, but you got to get the thing out of there. That's exactly what that's his technique. Yes. That's a good idea. I would think because you tell the jury, like you don't want cross examination to be, well, you just heard from this guy, but did you know this guy killed 19 people and here's how he did it?

59:34It's like, you want him to go, yeah, I killed 19 people. I'm not proud of it, but that was my job in the mafia. Okay, well, who are these people? Yeah, I'll give you one example of when we didn't do that. Exactly right. We had a guy who testified to all these horrible crimes and we spent two and a half days with this guy on the stand. Yes, I did this. Yes, I did. And we thought we covered everything. Defense lawyer stands up. First question to this cooperator, did you kill a dog we didn't even cover this like you know and the guy goes yeah and we're like oh god damn it we're like of all the things he did like he killed the dog and like we didn't he we forgot to ask you know like you have a standard thing did what extortions were you but you don't ask like did you kill a dog and then the follow-up the defense lawyer goes why did you kill a dog and the guy go the cooperator goes what do you mean he goes well did you have a problem with the dog he goes no i don't care about the dog i had a problem with the owner and we were like oh for God's sake.

1:00:21I mean, we got conviction in that case, but that was like, you know, it's hard because you're trying to exhaust the universe. And these guys have been committing crimes for 15, 25, 30 years. So it's like, it's almost impossible. That's why we're so like, you spend hours and days going, is there anything else? Did you ever? So from then on, I was, and I'll tell you another thing I learned to do. You got to check these guys' tattoos because I had a cooperator once who had a tattoo on his back of like an image of a judge, a jury, a knife and a gun. And it was like some saying like the one, I don't know, something like about killing judges and jurors.

1:00:54So now I learned like with all my cooperators, I'm like, let's see your tats, pull up your prison thing. You know, like, what does that mean? What does that mean? Because you want to have it all in advance. Wow. Yeah. Does it ever become too much for a jury to bear? Like the crimes are just so gross. The jury goes, okay, you're credible, but you're so repulsive. I can't even, I just don't want anything to do with you. Yes. And I give an example of that. I One of my books, I forget which one. One of John Gotti's main henchmen was this guy, John A. Light, who was a psycho. I mean, like by his own admission and committed all these murders.

1:01:23And I remember John A. Light was testifying about this story where he basically, okay. So his neighbor told him, hey, John, when you were away for a week, he was having a work done in his house. He said, the contractor was having sex in your room. Like I looked up into your room and the contractor was having sex with like his wife on your bed. So John A. Light didn't like this. And A. Light's telling the jury this because it's something he did. He goes, so I got the guy to my house. I lured him there. I told him I wanted to look at something. I put him at gunpoint. I tied him up in the garage.

1:01:49I had an attack dog, another dog. Then I tied up and I kept the dog just beyond like where the dog could reach him. And I left him in there for like an hour and he was freaking out. Then I untied him and he had like a pond in the back of his house. He goes, I marched him into the pond. I made him get undressed. It was freezing out. And I made him stay in the middle of the pond and I started shooting at him. He goes, I wasn't gonna hit him. I didn't hit him, but I was, you know, scared him to death. and I just remember like glancing over at the jury and you could just see they were like, that's it, like he's a psycho.

1:02:16And we, that case ended up hanging and Alar, meaning they were not unanimous, it was 6-6. And a big part of the, like they don't believe John A. Light's a liar. Why would he make this up about himself? They're just like, at a certain point, it's just too much and it's just, they're like, sorry, like you just can't make a deal with this guy. Interesting, yeah. So he's so repulsive that they're mad at you for making a deal to get him on the stand. Interesting. Yes. And you have to sort of, you know, there's no science behind it. You just have to use your gut. I'm like, I mean, I'll give you a high profile example.

1:02:47I do talk about this in the book. In the Matt Gaetz investigation, these prosecutors flipped this guy, Joel Greenberg, right, who was involved in, he pled guilty to sexual abuse of minors, to stalking, to falsely accusing another person of sexually abusing minors. And I wrote a piece basically saying like, look, I can flip murderers all day long. I'll put a murder on the stand, but a convicted liar and a convicted child sex offender, I'm not doing that ever. Yeah, Matt Gaetz is, what is it, a congressman who was, I forget what he was charged with, but something with like sex trafficking or nothing?

1:03:19The allegation was that he was involved with Joel Greenberg with this. And this is what makes it even worse. The prosecutors give Joel Greenberg this big break and then they don't even charge anyone off of it basically. So to me, that's like double prosecutorial malpractice. Like, A, you don't flip a guy like that. B, if you're going to, you better make a big case off him. So I wrote an article where I say this is malpractice, basically. Wow, so you can flip someone and then you just don't need them and they're like, see ya, suckers, because they have immunity. If you're horrible at your job as a prosecutor, you can.

1:03:49I would never do that. I mean, if one of the people I supervise said, here's the deal, there's a really bad guy, he's a child sex trafficker, we're gonna flip him, but we're not really sure if we're going to do anything with this information and say, oh no, we're going to have a plan and we're going to be damn sure we're going to use this information and it's credible and we're going to get something substantial out of it. I would imagine that defense lawyers would take the tact that like, hey, this guy's a lying crook. He just has a beef with this guy. But the problem is if you're dealing with a gang of lying crooks like the mafia, then everybody's a lie.

1:04:20Then they're not wrong. Like you are, your witness is a lying crook because everybody in this guy's orbit is a piece of crap. lie down with dogs, you get fleas. That's right. And it goes both ways, right? It goes both ways. But like they would go, the defense would always go, they chose this guy as a cooperator. They put this guy and we would always get back up and say, we didn't choose him. The defendant chose him. The defendant chose him when he pricked his finger and made him a guy. The defendant chose him when he gave this guy that hit, you know, so it's a back and forth. Right. I guess it's hard to find a altar boy slash school teacher to testify in a mafia trial.

1:04:52This is another standard line that we used to say, we would say, look, we would love to call nurses and school teachers to come in here and testify to you about the mafia. But guess what? Nurses and school teachers can't take you inside the Lucchese family. Only a gangster can do that. Yeah. Do gangsters try to intimidate the jury? I mean, you hear about this, but it seems like it would be really tough to do. I mean, but you could see the, I forget what it's called, the gallery. Couldn't you just staff your side with a bunch of really, really scary looking dudes? Yes, you can. I tell stories about that.

1:05:19And the way it worked in the Southern District is the jury would have to walk from the jury box maybe 30 feet back to the jury room through the gallery. And so there are absolutely cases where they would have guys, scary looking guys come in, sometimes even stand right on that aisle where they knew the jury walked. But even if they are not trying to, jurors are scared. I mean, I actually write, there's a chapter about this in the book. I mean, jury service, even under normal circumstances, is really scary. There's actually research on this that I found that is completely consistent with my own experience.

1:05:47Even in the most run of the mill case, jurors are terrified. I mean, imagine this, like you're not a lawyer. You don't know what this system is. You're brought into a room. There's a judge. There's a defendant. There's cops. There's marshals with their handcuffs clinking. And this guy who's accused of a crime, like his fate rests in your hands. That's scary. And add to it, if it's a mob case, I mean, I tell a story about a time we almost lost a verdict because during deliberations, a juror sent a note out saying to the judge, judge, I need to talk to you. And the juror came out and he goes, he just sort of blurted out in front of the judge and the lawyers.

1:06:17He goes, it was a murder case. He goes, we're about to convict him, but I'm too scared to vote guilty. And I was like, well, this is a good news, bad news scenario. And the judge basically was like, there's no reason to be afraid. There's no threat to any juror. And the guy goes, but he's, but he's a mobster. He's charged with murder. And the judge is like, but there's no threat to you. And the jury actually, the juror was very smart. He goes, why are we anonymous then? Because in certain cases of really dangerous people, you can ask the judge and we got it in this case. So this guy was juror number five.

1:06:45I didn't, nobody knew his name. He's like, and we were like, no, it's a pretty good point. And the judge basically just like basically the equivalent of like slapped him across the face. The judge was just like, look, can you do this job or not? If you can't, we're going to have to start all over. It's going to be a disaster. And if you can get back in there. And the guy's like, I guess I can. And like 10 minutes later, they were like, we have a verdict. I was like, I think I know what this is going to be. So, yeah, they convicted him. But jurors are definitely juror fear. You know, one of the themes of my book is like people think that our institutions are mechanical and robotic prosecutors, courts, judges, juries.

1:07:15But they're not. It's all human exercise. And every one of those participants is subject to prejudice and fear and self-aggrandizement. And it's very much a human process. That's actually good news, right? Because it means there's more flexibility in the system. Yeah. I've heard that the Department of Justice requires a higher standard or more approvals when dealing with high profile people, which I guess makes sense, but also seems to go against the whole justice is blind kind of thing. I mean, if you can make a decision to prosecute somebody who's a big nobody like me, but then, oh, but if you want to go after an actual famous person, well, I kind of need to run this up the flagpole.

1:07:53What does that mean for the system? You're absolutely correct. And this is not even a matter of opinion. You can go online, anyone can go online and look at the justice manual, which is the guidance, the official guidance to all federal prosecutors across the country. And in several different places, it says if your subject is a public official or if your subject is likely to draw media attention, which is going to be any famous whatever, it has to go to higher, higher levels for approval. And as a natural result of that, it's harder to charge, right? Because if one person can sign off, that's one thing.

1:08:25But if you need six levels of approval, it's that much harder. And as you say, I don't mean to suggest that this is necessarily ill-intentioned. It's important because you have to protect your office's reputation and credibility Because if you screw up one high profile case, that does more damage than properly doing a thousand regular cases will do. It's just the reality of it. Think about Cy Vance. He screwed up the Harvey Weinstein case. He screwed up a case involving the Trump children. Both of those overshadow the thousands upon thousands of legitimate good cases that he did. And I give an example in the book.

1:08:57I had a case when I was doing a Gambino case where a guy who was then a major league baseball player, I'll say his name in the book. He made a couple of all-star teams. I'll put it that way. He's not in the Hall of Fame, but he made a couple of All-Star teams. How about that? If he had been prosecuted, it would have been on the front page of the Post and the Daily News. He was just involved at a very low level with gambling. He wasn't gambling on baseball, but basically he was a bookmaker. He had a handful of wealthy guys who would put in bets through him. He would funnel them up through the family.

1:09:22If this guy was not well-known, if this was just a butcher or contractor, I would have made this decision. I was like a third-year prosecutor at the time, third or fourth year. I would have made that decision myself. No one would have given it a second thought. But because this guy was famous and good at baseball, it had to go up to my deputy chief, my unit chief, the criminal division deputy chief, the criminal, I mean, four or five layers. Now, ultimately, the decision in this case was not the charge. I think that was probably right, given just how he cares about gambling on its own. But this guy got way more consideration than he would have got if he was just an average Joe.

1:09:53That's interesting. So it's for reputation management. But I guess it also has some benefit for a crime boss or a celebrity, because if you if you're a celebrity, all your defense lawyer has to do. And I say that lightly, but it's not really that light. They have to throw some they could throw some ideas like, hey, this is going to look really bad because we actually have a pretty credible defense and you guys are going to look like idiots when we broadcast this. And you're going to look like you went after my client because of reasons that are not fair. And we're going to do our best to push those buttons because that's what I'm doing as a defense attorney.

1:10:25So why don't you just drop this crap and he'll either cooperate or we'll go away and you can go after somebody who's a real criminal. Especially in a case with political implications, right? It's a little hard to make that argument. Although they'll say you're headhunting. You're just looking for a bold face name. You just want to make your name. But in a case that has any potential political implication, they're going to say, it doesn't matter, Republican, Democrat, whatever. They're going to say, you're just looking to make a name. You're looking to settle a political score here. And what happens a lot of proffer.

1:10:53Defense lawyers will come in and they will say, here's why it's a mistake for you to charge my guy. And if we beat you, if you lose this case, prosecutors, it's going to be egg, more than egg on your face. It's going to be a disgrace to you in your office. And look, I mean, I use as an example, this wasn't a failed case, but as an example of the fact that one case can stick with a person forever, a judge who I appeared in front of many, many times named William Pauley, a federal judge here in Manhattan, ended up getting the Michael Cohen case. There was nothing really super controversial about Michael Cohen's case.

1:11:23He pled guilty. All Judge Pauly had to do was sentence him. He sentenced him to 30 months, which was not as particularly sensational sentence either way. When Judge Pauly died in 2021, Judge Pauly had presided over hundreds, I'm sure thousands of cases on civil rights and equal protection and anti-discrimination and education. I mean, all these important issues. His obituary in the New York Times was like 60 % about Michael Cohen. The point was, here's this guy who had this long, illustrious career, and all that anybody will remember about him, if you Google him, if you look at his obituary, is this one high profile.

1:11:57Okay, so there's a real disproportionality about it, and that leads to sometimes to favorable results for powerful people. It seems like this is also a little bit of a double-edged sword, right? Because if you're a celebrity and you're in jail, and there is a good case against you, now y 'all have to nail him to the cross. And I'm thinking of Andrew Tate in Romania, right, of all people. But this guy, now he has to be in deep shit because it's going to be really embarrassing for them if he just walks out. And, you know, Romania, not necessarily bound by constitutional restrictions that another country might be.

1:12:28But it seems like then, OK, if you're in jail and you get charged now, it's well, they must have a really strong case because this went all the way up the flagpole and they still decided to prosecute. So here we are. I think that's probably right. And, you know, there is such thing as the opposite effect, where when I was brand new at the U.S. attorney's office, there was a little bit of defense lawyers would grumble, sometimes publicly, that we were just out there headhunting, looking for big names. Like, for example, the Martha Stewart prosecution happened right before I joined. I mean, I think that sentencing happened like within weeks of when I started.

1:13:00But defense lawyers would say, and people in the media would say, would they really have pursued a normal person who did what Martha Stewart did? I mean, Martha Stewart went in to meet with a prosecutor, an FBI agent, and lied to them about a financial stock transaction. But there was a question raised. And Jim Comey, who authorized that case when he was U.S. attorney, again, I don't know James Comey, but he was U.S. attorney right before I got there. He wrote about it in his bestselling book that he wrote. And he's defensive about that. I mean, you know, he makes the case, but he says, I understand the perception that we went after her because she's famous.

1:13:32But I studied all these cases and I concluded that, you know, and shortly after that, my office prosecuted Lil' Kim, the rapper, also on a perjury case because she went into a grand jury. Basically, like said, she didn't see there was a shootout outside a radio station and said she didn't see anybody when she obviously did see people or something like that. But again, there were allegations at trial and in the media that this is this office full of hot shots and they're all just trying to get a celebrity under their belt here. So I guess it can push the other way as well. Do you have any regrets from your career, like not getting somebody you really wanted to nail behind bars?

1:14:05That's a great question. I mean, I guess there's there's a difference between regret and disappointment. I opened the book with the story of Danny Marino. And I do say like, to this day, I wonder whether I handled that case right. We ended up, I'll just say that the resolution, we pled the case out for a number that I'm not super proud of. And I say in the book, on the one hand, we had guts to even charge him. Most prosecutors and FBI agents wouldn't have even charged him. On the other hand, it's light and he's out now, he's free. So there are, but I will also tell you, there's a couple of cases where I do feel like I went too hard on somebody.

1:14:37I'm not mob cases. You know, there was a case when I first started that got re, re, reassigned to me. By the way, anyone out there who's going to be a prosecutor, if a case is being re, re, reassigned to you and you're like the fourth prosecutor on that case, run. Because prosecutors know how to dump a dog off on the new kid. This was a case of sort of a sad sack guy who actually tried to extort the University of Miami football team. He was like this loner who lived with his mom and he hated for some reason the Hurricanes football team and he threatened them. And he said, if you, you know, I'm going to write a horrible book about you.

1:15:12It was, the guy was half off his rocker. We ended up pleading him out for like 18 months or something. And I will say he got really badly hurt in jail. He got beaten up in a bad way. And I think if I was older, when I got that case, I got that case. I started as a prosecutor when I was 29. When I had this case, I was either 29 or 30. I'm 47 now. I mean, I think if I would have got that case four or five years into my career when I had a little more legs under me, I would have said, this is bull. We're not, no way, we're dismissing this. Or we're given probation or something. This is not a jail case.

1:15:41This guy doesn't need to be locked up. So I do have minor regrets in cases like that that maybe I should have been a little more merciful, really. But, you know, I don't really have too many regrets about guys we missed. I mean, we missed on John Gotti Jr. We didn't convict him, but I felt like that was a fair trial where we had a, you know, fair fight. and we didn't get him. So that's fine. I can accept that. What takes so long with some of these celebrities? Like Bill Cosby, you hear, and we touched on this in the beginning of the show. Why does it take like 30 years of reports to get Harvey Weinstein, Bill Cosby?

1:16:13We already talked about Epstein. What is the deal here? I mean, he's not donating to powerful politicians. So what the hell's, what's wrong with the system? There is a fear factor. There is a circling of the wagons. I mean, Cosby's such an interesting example because there were rumors for a long time that he was doing this. And then Hannibal Buress does his stand-up set, and I think it's 2014, where he just lays into Cosby. And bizarrely enough, that then led to some op-eds by victims saying, you know, Bill Cosby assaulted me. And there's sort of this growing momentum. But there was a real denialism about that.

1:16:45And in the book, I do a deep dive into this. When the allegations first came to the Pennsylvania County detectives, I forget, I think it's Montgomery County, They interviewed the first accuser and they talked to her on the phone, which is the absolute way you do not do. When you're talking to a sexual assault complainant, you do it face to face. It's hard enough to build trust, never mind on the phone. Then when it came time to interview Bill Cosby, they drove from Montgomery County into Manhattan, met Bill Cosby in the comfort of his lawyer's office. And the statement that the police chief made when he was walking out, he said, oh, Cosby was he was great.

1:17:17He was wearing his typical Cosby sweater. and I don't see any reason to doubt anything. I mean, he's openly fawning over Bill Cosby. Yeah, because I mean, Bill Cosby, and you remember, Jordan, was a deity. I mean, the guy had a 100 % approval rating in the 80s, right? Yeah. And the 90s. So I think there is this fear factor and this just reluctance to take on a guy like that. And it takes until the reporting and the public pressure gets to a certain critical mass to take some of these stands. A lot of people see these verdicts, especially not guilty, and they're like, oh, we're so screwed. Our system is broken.

1:17:49tell us why we shouldn't lose faith in the justice system. You know, what do you think? Yeah, I don't think our justice system is perfect, but I think our justice system, our prosecutors and courts have done a very good job for the most part. I mean, the whole thing is we have a process. And as long as the process is respected, as long as prosecutors are left to use their independent judgment, and I argued in my first book that for a time that was not the case at DOJ, then I think all we can do is base our assessment on the process itself and not the result. As long as we're giving defendants all their constitutional due process rights, as long as we're going through the jury process, the sentencing process, the appeal process, then that's what really matters.

1:18:31And I do urge people, let's not be results focused. Let's be processed focused because the results are always gonna be all over the map. You're never gonna be 100 % satisfied in all the results, but it's not about that. Our system's not about ensuring results. We wouldn't have an adversarial process if that was the case. So I do have a lot of faith in our judicial system. I think it's held up remarkably well, well before I was involved and will hold up remarkably well long after I'm gone. Not perfect and subject needs at times to be reformed and revised, but I do have faith in it. Ellie Honig, thank you very much, man.

1:19:03Really interesting inside look. I'd never, and even as an attorney, I'm like, I've never heard a half of this. So I appreciate it. Thanks, Jordan. I really appreciate that. Thanks for having me. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show with one of the most recognizable names in journalism. My great-great-great-grandfather, Cornelius Vanderbilt, who made two fortunes, one based on steamships, one on railroads, you know, he died with$100 million, which in 1877 meant that he controlled one out of every$20 in circulation. Nobody could believe it. My mom was Gloria Vanderbilt, and she inherited a couple million dollars in 1941.

1:19:41My mom drank, and my brother ended up jumping off our balcony in front of my mom when he was 23 and I was 21. The next day, my mom and I went to the funeral home to view his body. And there were reporters waiting outside the funeral home to get video of us going in. And I remember in that moment sort of hating the camera people who were doing that. I do know what it's like to be on the other end of the lens and I don't want to make somebody else feel like that. I couldn't get a job at ABC or CBS. I thought my very nascent career in broadcasting was never going to get started. The director kindly made me a laminated press card, which was totally made up.

1:20:19And I borrowed one of their cameras, a small little camera, ended up just spending the next two or three years going to war zones and disasters. You never know exactly how people are going to react to something. You know, we all think, oh, well, you know, if I was there, this is what I would do. You can intellectually think you know who you are. but I'm telling you when the lights go out and there's no air condition and it's really friggin' hot and you don't have food and there's crazy stuff going on around you you become a different person very, very quickly. Sometimes you become the person that you never thought you'd be.

1:20:53You become a superhero and you risk your own life to help other people. Some of the people who thought they would be the heroes end up punching women in the face in order to scale a wall to get to safety. You don't know who you are until everything is at jeopardy. To hear more from Anderson Cooper about traveling through war zones and how he got his start in broadcast journalism without relying on family connections, check out episode 584 of The Jordan Harbinger Show. I want to be clear. This is not a eulogy for our justice system. It is simply an awareness campaign to show how people exploit the flaws and features of our justice system so that decision makers can be made aware of how this happens.

1:21:33I think it's interesting how being at the top of a crime group or even a corporate organization insulates you from charges. Basically, you were able to place intermediaries between you and sketchy things because then it's harder to pin on you. When other people do the dirty work, you can always say you didn't know, you weren't aware, and it's better to do it verbally, never in writing. That's a common mafia tactic. Really, a lot in the book about the mob, politicians, et cetera. I found it quite fascinating. This is stuff you kind of learn about or hear about as a lawyer or in law school, but with somebody on the front lines like Ellie is, it's a whole different ballgame.

1:22:02All things Eli Honig will be in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com or just ask the AI chatbot. Transcripts in the show notes, advertisers, deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. I've said it once, but I'll say it again. Please consider supporting those who support the show. I'm at jordanharbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, or also connect with me on LinkedIn. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, and I am teaching you how to do the same thing for yourself in our six-minute networking course.

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