853: Memories of Trauma or Therapy-Induced Drama? | Feedback Friday

22:51You can search for any sponsor using the AI chatbot on the website or the deals page. So please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, A couple months into my relationship with my boyfriend of two and a half years, he mentioned a close co-worker he had been chatting with because she was going through marital trouble. I have close co-workers of the opposite gender myself, so I didn't think anything of it. Then one day, while he and I were on a date, she tried to reach him incessantly. first by FaceTime, then by phone, and then a flurry of text messages.

23:26Even though I didn't feel comfortable with it, I didn't question it. He and I had just come back from a romantic trip and become official by then, and I trusted him. A couple weeks later, he told me that she wanted to meet with me for brunch. She explained that she was trying to reach him that day because she was feeling anxious about her divorce. She reassured me that there was nothing going on, they didn't want to be together, and she's thankful for him because he helped her realize that she wasn't in a happy marriage. I liked her and felt that I could trust her. She even invited us to her dad's birthday party that summer.

23:59That's where I picked up on some strange vibes. In a sea of 30 plus relatives, it looked like she was trying to make an effort to sit close to him and catch his eye. I thought maybe she was trying to make him feel comfortable, but she didn't extend that same effort to me. If anything, she moved away from me to get closer to him. So I checked his messages. I know it's not right, but one of my previous relationships was with an abusive cheater, and I needed to make sure that there was nothing going on. Sure enough, they had been having inappropriate, sexually charged conversations in the early stages of our relationship while she was still married.

24:39Granted, it was before we became official, and after a while the flirty messages were more one-sided, coming from her. He might have toyed with the idea, but my boyfriend never made a move, even though she put it on the table. I didn't mention that I read the messages, but I did tell him that things didn't add up. His response was that they've known each other longer than he's known me, and they might have been a bit flirty in the beginning, but that got quashed quickly, and now she's just a good friend. I wasn't satisfied with that answer. I was hurt, and I couldn't let it go. Finally, in maybe our tenth conversation about this, I mentioned that I had read their messages.

25:15By that point, he felt we had exhausted the conversation and refused to talk about it with me, saying I broke his trust by snooping. My boyfriend has made it clear that he will continue to remain friends with her even though it makes me feel uncomfortable. She's now engaged to someone else and says she's not a threat. To me though, this feels like emotional cheating. I honestly hate her for making me feel like I've been backstabbed and would prefer that he not speak to her anymore. I get anxiety thinking about their level of closeness, but I can't force someone to end a friendship. How do I deal with this?

25:49Signed, Stuck in Strife, about my guy's work wife. All right, before I react to the rest of this, whenever anybody snoops and then finds out something bad and then confronts the person and admits that they were snooping, and the person goes, I can't believe you snooped. I always, always think like, that's just a crappy Ono reverse card that you're using because it sort of avoids the topic, even when they're right. Like in this case, I'm sort of on the fence. And I think maybe he has a point, but I don't know. I just don't pull that easy reverse card, folks. It doesn't do you any favors. So this is a tricky situation.

26:22Gabe, it's interesting. There's a lot happening here, first of all, some very real anger and anxiety and heartache on her part for sure. But also, and this is probably just the guy opinion here, but nothing physical ultimately happened between her boyfriend and this woman. As far as we know, So it's almost like the pain is coming from the way they're each dealing with this almost situation, not from the situation itself. It's kind of a call is coming from inside the house type of scenario. A little bit. Yes. To me, this story has a lot to do with how they treat each other and what place other people hold in their lives.

26:56Yeah, totally. And also just this feeling of you made me look stupid and you're not telling me the full story. and I know you're not telling me the full story because I read the text, but I can't tell you that because I was snooping, which makes me look bad. Totally. It is a weird place to be, but she did finally, which good, good for her. And his response was, well, you were snooping and you broke my trust. And I just, like I said, crappy Uno reverse card that he probably shouldn't have played. Right, but she's going, yeah, but you broke my trust by flirting with this woman and not telling me.

27:26So we're both at fault, bro. But then his response is probably, sure, we flirted, but it was early days. I stopped when you and I got serious. I never cheated on you with her. And basically what he means is I never slept with her. We never fooled around. Okay, and to be fair, he didn't. I'm not sure if he really did anything wrong by engaging with this woman before they became official. If he was doing it now, different story, but where he started to go wrong, in my opinion, was in hiding the nature of their relationship from our friend here once they got serious. Why do that? And maybe in not explicitly redefining this relationship with his coworker at that point, you know, like he could have sat her down and said, okay, so look, our relationship could have gone this way.

28:04I'm dating somebody new. I really like her. We're together. I'd really like to stay friends. So we need to put these feelings away and be something different to each other now. Are you okay with that? Right, and then he could go back to his girlfriend and tell her, so here's the deal. We were flirting in the beginning. Now we're not. I've told her about you. I've told her that our relationship is strictly platonic and she's on the same page. I feel like that would have avoided so much of this conflict. So much of it. I agree. But, you know, I guess there's also a world where her boyfriend wasn't explicitly trying to hide this fling from her because he wants to get with his coworker.

28:41He might have been hiding it to spare his girlfriend. Definitely. The one writing in. Right. Slash spare himself the guilt of watching her suffer as a result. Me putting myself in his shoes, that's where I'm going with this. It doesn't mean that this is what happened. I just completely understand that. What's tricky, though, is that this woman might still have feelings for him. We didn't even address that yet. I mean, also kind of unclear, though, right? I mean, obviously she did at one point and really put it out there. I mean, she put it on the table like, do you want to hook up? But she's engaged to somebody else now.

29:11I do wonder if that might simplify things. True. Maybe she really means it when she says she's not a threat. In which case, the problem, again, is not so much about this woman in particular. I think it's about what this woman has revealed about the way these two respond. to a conflict like this. I do feel like that's the crux of this story. So my take is, in a way, you're both right. I hate when that's the answer, though. And in a way, you both have some work to do. Your boyfriend is struggling to be 100 % transparent with you about this woman and maybe struggling to be transparent with her about the terms of their friendship.

29:46TBD on that, I suppose. I wonder if you can ask him why he chose not to tell you about those texts early on, whether it was to deceive you or to spare you whether that's an indication of his true feelings for her. I think there's a world where your boyfriend is not cheating on you or keeping this woman on the back burner or having an emotional affair, but he's also not engaging with you fairly on this or being very clear about the boundaries of the friendship. And that's where the honesty and communication piece comes in. On your side of the equation, you're struggling to trust your boyfriend.

30:17You're not entirely wrong about that. He's given you some reason to doubt him. But I also imagine that your relationship with this abusive guy cheating in your past, that probably did a number on you. Finding the text messages confirmed your worst fears, that your partner's lying to you, possibly cheating on you, and that obviously hurts, and it flipped some switches that were in there from your last relationship. But we're talking about texts from like two years ago, man. When you guys were not official, if he were carrying on with her, the flirty texts, it doesn't take a Columbo Sherlock Holmes to think like those would have continued, right?

30:49And like you said, he didn't reciprocate those texts after you became a couple, which I think is a pretty damn good sign. A pretty good sign that he wasn't feeding this relationship in that way. I agree. My sense is that you guys are stuck because this conversation has been largely about what this woman means to your boyfriend, what she wants from him, which, don't get me wrong, that's relevant. But the deeper issue is what all of this reveals about how you guys are operating with each other and how he's operating with her and how this situation is bringing out different responses, anxiety and distrust and anger and you and avoidance and protectiveness and some resentment in him so when you say that your boyfriend will continue to remain friends with this woman even though it makes you uncomfortable i'm kind of of two minds here on one hand i think it is a little dicey to maintain a relationship with her when he hasn't clarified what it's actually about what it means.

31:46But on the other hand, and this might sound kind of weird, but just hear me out. I kind of appreciate that your boyfriend is saying, listen, I'm not going to narrow my world and cut people off just to make sure that you feel comfortable all the time. Yeah, I think that's interesting. And like, he might be saying, I know what this person means to me. I'm not trying to hook up with her and I'm not going to close myself off from my friends because you're uneasy about it. And Gabriel, there's also a world in which it's kind of too late for him to be like, hey we're both engaged or whatever by the way just so we are clear there's no feelings between either of us his friend might be like bro i haven't thought about that for two years you're just bringing this up out of the blue this is so awkward now how when did you decide that i decided that years ago and you're just now throwing it out there that we're platonic like okay i don't know how to react to this it might be just weird now and then that changes the relationship now it gets weird and then he loses her for another reason right yeah yeah that's true it's another layer that I didn't even consider.

32:44I do wish he were being more sensitive to how all of this affects his girlfriend, but that might be a fair and pretty healthy position to take that I don't want to cut this person off just because you feel uneasy. But again, doesn't that depend on him and this coworker being totally on the same page? Yes, of course. The big question for me is I'm not totally clear on what their relationship is about. Like, is he staying close to her because there's a meaningful friendship there? Or is he staying close because there's some residual flirtation and that's maybe kind of exciting, or there's a little bit of like an escape hatch in the background and he wants to keep that door open?

33:21Or he just enjoys playing such a pivotal role in her life, which, yeah, might be a little bit problematic. I think that's the question, because that determines the legitimacy of this whole situation. So look, I'm sure you hate this woman. Maybe you have a right to if she's trying to move in on your man. But that might also be anger towards your boyfriend directed towards this woman and maybe some anger at yourself for having these strong reactions and not being able to resolve them. Your anxiety that needs to be addressed to either by your boyfriend being more open with you or by you taking a closer look at why this coworker is so threatening, given that your boyfriend doesn't seem to be carrying on with her because you're right.

34:00You can't force him to end a friendship, but you can ask him to hear you when you say, hey, I'm feeling uneasy about this. I'm trying to let it go. But for me to put this to bed, I need to understand why this friendship is so important to you. And then you have to make it safe for your boyfriend to be totally honest with you, which it sounds like he struggles with sometimes. And if you're not comfortable with what you hear, then you can decide if this is the right relationship for you. But either way, I would try to separate out what your boyfriend is doing from how it's triggering you. So you can appreciate what part of this is his, what part of this is yours, and how you can both work on things to heal this injury and enjoy the relationship again.

34:39And I'm wishing you the best. By the way, maybe after you guys have this chat, you host a barbecue at your place, at your house, you invite her and her fiance, and you just, you feel him up by the grill. Give her a taste of her own barbecue sauce. Sweet gropey raised barbecue sauce. Gropey raised barbecue sauce. That sounds so disgusting and also kind of sounds like a label on a sauce you would see on the market. Yes, exactly. Strong branding right there. I did base this off of sweet baby Ray's barbecue sauce, which I saw on Mark Zuckerberg's shelf during a video stream a long time ago. Anyway, I'm kidding.

35:16Don't do that. It would be petty and gross. I just wanted to say the phrase, feel him up by the grill because it makes me chuckle. And speaking of being in touch with people you shouldn't, you can reach us at Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your stepdad has stolen your nudes, or your friend has accused your family member of assault and you're not sure who to believe, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com.

35:45We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. All right, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a 45-year-old man and I've been dating a woman my age for a few months. Overall, we enjoy dating each other and have fun together. But she has an annoying habit. She very often tells me stories about friends and family members of hers whom I've never met and likely never will. She thinks the stories are very funny, but I find them to be quite boring. I understand that in a relationship you'll hear about your partner's friends at times, but these are full-on stories about people I don't know or who aren't in her life anymore.

36:25What's worse is that she'll often repeat the same stories. It's kind of like hearing someone tell you about their dreams. It's only interesting to the storyteller. I feign interest for a while, but then wind up just staying quiet and not reacting. How can I tell her that I'm not interested in these stories in a way that won't hurt her feelings? Signed, confronting the snooze without leaving a bruise. Oh man, this is actually kind of funny. I do feel for you here a lot. listening to somebody's boring ass stories and having to feign interest is so painful. The dream analogy is real. But at the same time, you don't want to turn to your significant other and say, look, honey, I can't hear another story about Tiffany, the woman who made you that custom candle eight years ago.

37:10I don't know Tiffany. You don't really know Tiffany. I'm never going to meet Tiffany. Tiffany sucks. One more of these random stories. I'm going to jam a chilled salad fork in my eardrum. Can we please just watch Vanderpump Rules and go the fuck to bed? That's a tough conversation to have. I just, I don't know how that goes down. I don't know, man. I'm really torn here because I feel for this guy, but I also think there's something kind of sweet about this. Like, yes, it's annoying as hell what she's doing, but it's kind of like touching. She's talking his ear off because she's excited about him probably, and she wants him to be part of her life.

37:45Fair enough. The intention is probably good, but that doesn't change the fact that she's just putting him straight to sleep. Making him want to hang himself from the chandelier. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, this is, it's funny. This is actually reminding me a little bit of a girl I dated briefly a few years back. She was a very sweet person, very smart, but she used to do this thing that was very similar to this, except instead of telling stories, she would go on these like long meandering rants about her positions on various topics like movies or politics or whatever. And she would go on and on and she wouldn't be like driving at anything in particular.

38:21And I would just find myself sitting there in silence going like, when is this going to end? Like, what is the point? That is brutal. That is definitely the kind of thing that would make me look for the nearest chilled salad for it for sure. Just gobble up all that word salad. Seriously, that's actually really funny because she also had so much kitchenware now that I think about it. Random factoid. It's a very well-stocked kitchen, yeah. But the worst part was like she would go on for 10 or 15 minutes sometimes just stumbling her way through these rants. And then she would randomly stop and go, does that make sense?

38:55Oh, no. I don't know. It drove me insane, Jordan. Like every single time she would go, does that make sense? I don't know. And one night I finally said, like, no, no, it doesn't. Like, why do I have to decide if what you said makes sense all the time? Like, why don't you try to make sense? And then I can get on board and then we will both know if it made sense. You know, Gabriel, I cannot for the life of me understand why that relationship didn't last. There was a lot more to it than that. But yeah, that's a pretty good indication of how it went. And look, at a certain point, I started to realize that this person wasn't just kind of bad at monologuing.

39:36She was actually kind of disrespectful of her audience. She wasn't attuned to other people. And by the way, it wasn't just with me. She wasn't really thinking about what they might want out of a conversation. And I think that might be what's going on in this letter, too. He's not just bored by the stories. I think he's kind of annoyed that she's not being thoughtful about what it's like to be on the other side of them. Okay, I think that's right. Right. It's the one, two punch of you suck at telling stories. And also it makes me feel like I'm just a warm body to give you an audience. Yes. Which then makes him have to feign interest for a prolonged period of time from the sound of it, which is one of the worst feelings.

40:12Right. And then staying quiet, not reacting because he literally just doesn't know how, or doesn't want to say, stop talking. So is there a way to fix this? Well, I think there is, but it's not going to be the most fun conversation. Basically, I think your best option is to say to your girlfriend, listen, I love that you want to tell me stories about people. I love that you want me to know about all of your friends, but I need to tell you what it's like to listen to these stories sometimes. I don't say this to be mean. I say this because I'm really enjoying our relationship. We have fun together.

40:45I want to continue doing that. Basically, I noticed that you tend to tell me a lot of stories about people I don't know and will never meet. And it's hard for me to follow them because they're just not that meaningful to me. Or you tell me stories I've already heard, and that puts me in the position of having to feign interest until you're done, and that's just not how I want us to be with each other. So maybe we can work on this, because I'd love for us both to be thoughtful about what the other person wants in our conversations. Something like that. You know, be kind, be gentle, don't be cruel, and it might actually be okay.

41:21Maybe the answer is that she needs to appreciate what is and is not interesting to you. But also, maybe you need to locate what's interesting to her in those stories and work a little harder to enjoy that, although I'm guessing you've already tried. Or maybe the answer is that she needs to become a way better storyteller, which, you know, fair enough. Although I'm not sure how you've fixed that, really. I don't know. I mean, look, he could give her like a gift certificate to a storytelling class for her birthday or something. Just like a very subtle hint. Yeah, there's an idea. Go to Toastmasters for six months, babe.

41:53Then tell me about the time Linda, your facialist, locked her husband out of their hotel room in Orlando back in 1997. I mean, it's kind of cute. Like, I want to hear your stories. I just want you to work on your craft. Yeah, that's so Hollywood game. Like I said, not an easy chat to have, but I just I don't see the situation changing if you don't speak up. It's a whole set of bad habits. I have to say I'm weirdly excited about this conversation because I feel like the way she responds is going to tell him a lot about her and about their relationship and if it's going to last. And a lot about himself, right?

42:26He's kind of hiding here by nodding along and staying quiet. Maybe this will be an opportunity for him to take a chance, speak his mind, which it could be a big step in their relationship. It's a great point. And if he says this and she goes, you know, how dare you call me boring? This is what a relationship is telling your partner about all the drama from your first job at Blockbuster Video or whatever. That's not a great sign. But if she goes, oh, wow, OK, I had no idea. I'm really sorry. I'll try to be more thoughtful. You know, I'll stop repeating myself. That's promising. I like that outcome.

42:57To me, that's the ultimate litmus test. The other option is for him to become way more boring and start bombarding her with all of his lame ass stories and weird dreams until she snaps at him and then he can go, well, now you know how it feels, Miranda. And they can just go back to eating dinner in total silence like a normal dysfunctional couple with nothing in common. Wow. That feels like dark Jordan, but just a few shades lighter. Bingo. Gray Jordan, just passive aggression to the max. So new Jordan just dropped.

43:29Anyway, try talking with the right approach. This could go surprisingly well. Gabriel, Does that make sense? I don't know. You know what you don't have to feign interest in? The amazing sponsors who support this show. We'll be right back. Hey, if you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. I know you think, oh, everyone supports the sponsors. I appreciate it. Every single time you do this, it does count for something. So please go to jordanharbinger.com slash deals.

44:05You can also search for any sponsor using the AI chatbot on the website as well, or email me. If you're super lazy, just email me, Jordan at jordanharbinger.com. I'll dig up the code for you, you lazy sod. And thank you so much for supporting those who support the show. It does make it possible for us to keep creating these episodes week after week. And I thank you. Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right, next up. Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a 33-year-old dude who left the military three years ago after 11 years of being an explosives detection canine handler and an instructor. I'm now a full-time dad, and we're expecting our third child next month.

44:43After a year, I went back to school and completed a BS in criminal justice with a concentration in digital forensics with honors. I've also almost completed an undergrad certificate in cybersecurity and obtained industry certs in security, incident handling, and soon advanced forensics and incident response. Wow. I'm about a year out from being able to seriously job hunt. My biggest concern is the fact that I have had a very unorthodox break in employment. Being a stay-at-home dad has taught me so much about stress and time management, working under pressure, patience, care, gentleness, empathy, taking a genuine interest in others, and maintaining a healthy balance.

45:24I've loved every single second of it. But it was also less stressful searching for IEDs than it is to do both stereotypical mom and dad roles and finish school in the few hours I have to myself. My amazing wife is a nurse working five days a week, 10 to 12 hours a day. so it really is me doing 90 % of the home front duties. I can simultaneously make killer Swedish meatballs, fold laundry, potty train a two-year-old, kiss boo-boos, and execute a perfect rendition of any Disney's Moana song. Separately, I'm also 100 % disabled due to a laundry list of military injuries. I'm not wheelchair-bound or anything, it's just enough persistent injuries plus mental health slash PTSD equals you're totally broken, according to the VA.

46:10How do I take this absolutely incredible experience of being a stay-at-home father while working to transition into a new career and convey it to employers in a way that my break is seen in a positive light? And can an employer hold my disability against me? Is this something I should be worrying about too? Signed, off the battlefield, but still trying to defuse these bombs. Well, this is an amazing story. You're basically Jeremy Renner in the Hurt Locker, or that famous canine handler they made the movie about with the woman from House of Cards. Oh yeah, Megan Levy. Yeah, and now you're a full-time dad reinventing his whole story.

46:47I think it's super impressive, man. You're on an interesting journey. I know that it raises some big questions, so let's get into it. We wanted to get an expert's opinion on your story, so we reached out to Joanna Tate, friend of the show and professional in HR since 2006, and the first thing Joanna told us was that your education and military experience are both very impressive and appreciated. Staying at home might feel risky or uncomfortable for you, like it's a big, ugly gap in your story. But as Joanna pointed out, that's what women frequently do when kids come along and it's normal to feel nervous about jumping back into work.

47:22In her view, all quote-unquote negative experiences have a positive side. What you've learned, how you've grown, how you've adapted. so when you say that you're worried about this gap in your resume, what we want to know is how significant is that gap really? As Joanna put it to us, if you had said the job gap was based on several suspicious workers' comp injuries and running from the law, yeah, she'd be a little nervous for you. But that's not your story. You served in the military. You're going to school. You're getting all these certs. You've been a stay-at-home parent. You're not at home picking your nose watching Netflix.

47:55In Joanna's experience, transition time between military duty and civil work makes sense just on a human level. You can tell that story, especially if your education is tucked in there. It makes sense to say, yeah, I was a stay-at-home parent while continuing my education. Simple, clean, accurate. In Joanna's view, what'll make the difference in an interview is the confidence with which you tell that story. So I think there's some work for you to do in accepting your narrative, getting a little friendlier with it and trusting that the hiring managers you meet will be intrigued and impressed and probably pretty touched by an explosive detection canine handler who went back to school and was a full-time dad.

48:33And by the way, you should definitely throw in that line about how it was less stressful searching for IEDs than it is to do both mom and dad roles and finish school. I just think that's such a great talking point in an interview. It's a great story, but you have to feel that. And that might mean integrating those parts of your life and not feeling the need to apologize or compensate for them too much. After that, it's just practice. Try out your interview pitch with some friends, interview a bunch, get some reps in. It'll be better and better. But you already have all the pieces on the board, truly.

49:05I just don't see any fault in wanting to spend time with your family and adjust to civilian life after a decade in the military. It seems totally normal to me. I agree. I'm actually very pumped for him for this. I think he's going to crush in these interviews. Such a good story. As far as the discrimination question, Joanna reminded us that all employees have a legal right to work in an environment free of harassment. It's illegal to deny employment or to harass or to demote or otherwise discriminate against somebody because they're a veteran, among other protected classes. It's also illegal to discriminate against somebody because of a disability, which can include certain mental health conditions.

49:43But depending on how severe the PTSD is or the larger disability is, they could still make it challenging for you to interview and for you to do your job as well as you could. Joanna actually told us a really interesting story. So she once interviewed a woman who had tragically just lost her adult daughter. And the woman started crying during the interview. And Joanna's heart went out to her. but it was kind of difficult to keep the interview focused and really evaluate this candidate based on her skills because she was having this big reaction. And the company ultimately didn't end up hiring her.

50:17Joanna couldn't say that it was definitely because the interview got kind of sad, but it did add an additional layer that put her in a weird position, which was feeling obligated on some level to send this candidate to the next round simply because she felt bad for her because she had just gone through this really terrible thing, which is obviously not how you want employers evaluating you. So Joanna's other idea was, it might be worth talking to a career counselor or a therapist or both about the job search and the whole transition into civilian work. And maybe you even talk to somebody who specializes in working with veterans specifically.

50:53I know those people are out there because you're going to want to get ready to be in the workforce mentally and emotionally and work through any, you know, lingering doubts or fears or any other issues that might get in the way of you really shining in these interviews. But Joanna's overall feeling based on your story was that you should definitely go into this job search with a lot of confidence because to quote her here, it sounds like he has a lot to offer. And I just want to say again, I completely agree. So do I. I get the sense that your standards are very high, which is admirable, but that might also make you overly concerned about falling short.

51:27There might be a little anxiety piece about what gaps you might be overlooking and how people are going to perceive you. I'm not saying you don't have any work to do to prepare, but you are in a way better position than you seem to think. If I were a hiring manager or HR person, I would respond very strongly to a guy who served in the military, went back to school, worked his butt off to reeducate himself, and then was an awesome dad on top of everything. Just as a guy with kids, I'm like, holy crap, you did all that while kissing boo-boos or whatever he said. I can pretty much guarantee that you're going to be the only person in these interviews with that story.

52:02So start working on it, start nailing down your story, and I know you're going to do great. So good luck. All right, next up. Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a 21-year-old college student studying to be an elementary school teacher. I'm very grateful to have my dad and his family supporting me through college and being a stable place for my younger sister and me. My 52-year-old mom, on the other hand, has been dealing with depression, anxiety, and alcoholism for some time now. Growing up, she always struggled with handling money, getting herself into large amounts of credit card debt. She filed for bankruptcy once and immediately fell back into debt a few years later.

52:37She lost her job three years ago and hasn't been able to keep another one since. She can't afford her mortgage on the house and keeps refinancing and taking grants out so she can continue living there. She also always comes up with ideas for apps that she wants to create, hoping one day this is how she can make a living. She also lives alone and has few friends, and now her health is deteriorating. She's developed high blood pressure due to excessive use of alcohol and almost had a heart attack about a week ago, which she didn't even tell me about. I had to learn about it from my sister. I haven't been able to stop worrying about her since.

53:11I don't make much money and am not in a position to be close to her the majority of the time. She doesn't want to die so young, but she isn't taking action to help herself. I feel helpless. My deepest fear, though, is that I will end up like her too, in debt, alone, and unable to keep myself afloat. After all, we all turn into some version of our parents eventually. How much responsibility do I have to help her? How do I do that without placing a big burden on myself? And how do I help myself deal with knowing that my mom is in trouble? Signed, trying to be gentle and not go mental while I keep an eye on a detrimental parental.

53:49Oh, this is a really sad story. Your mom is obviously struggling in a number of different ways, has struggled for some time. That must have been very hard to grow up with and very hard to deal with now for that matter. I hear your sadness. I hear your fear in your letter. And man, I understand it. Watching a parent suffer and not being able to help, it has to be just an awful feeling. So I'm going to touch on a theme we come back to a lot on this show, and I'll keep it brief, which is, you are not your mom's parent, and you can't make her do anything she doesn't want to do. If she's going to change, she's got to put in the work to change.

54:25She's got to ask for help. She's got to seek out the resources she needs. She's got to get a handle on her finances. She's got to look into treatment or recovery meetings. She's got to take better care of her body. Even if you could push her in that direction, you couldn't physically make her do all of those things every hour of every day because this is her life and not yours. Now, that doesn't mean you should just give up on her or that you need to punish her or that there's no point in encouraging her. You certainly can. And if she can capitalize on your help, then you should. What I am saying is that you are not ultimately responsible for your mom's health, happiness, or quality of life, period.

55:01Now, where this gets tricky is that even if you get to a place where you can accept that, your mom's choices obviously still impact you. I'm sure it's very painful to know that she's addicted to alcohol, that she's super isolated. It's scary to hear that she's having financial problems, that she ended up in the hospital and didn't tell you. And if things ever got worse, you might wonder if she will become your problem in a bigger way. I'm not trying to minimize that concern. I'll come back to that in a moment. But this is where your work begins. Because when you have a parent like this, you basically have two options.

55:36One, you continue to identify with them completely. You continue to feel responsible for them. You let their pain determine a lot of how you feel about yourself, which is normal, but very, very problematic. Option two is you accept your parents' situation for what it is. You keep reminding yourself that you are your own person with your own life, and you get in touch with the boundaries that allow you to separate yourself from mom so that you can focus primarily on you. You're still available to her. You still love her, but her struggles don't dictate your mood, your whole life. Now, obviously, option two is the only sane way to go, and I would argue the healthy way to go.

56:16Right, but option two often means being more in touch with the pain that she's describing, right? It means making peace with her helplessness and also surrendering to the fact that her mom just might be caught in a cycle that she just cannot end. For a lot of people, that's ironically harder than trying to save somebody who can't or won't be saved. It can feel like losing or giving up, but it's not. It's actually the opposite. I agree, because once you accept your mom fully, then you're in a position to know what you can actually do to help, where it's actually effective. Right. So look, I obviously, I don't know what's going to happen to your mom.

56:50She might keep chugging along, scraping by. She sounds like a survivor, but she might continue to have problems just given her age and her history. So I would strongly recommend that you and your sister start talking about how to best help your mom and what you guys will do if she ever needs more serious care. Like if she has a health crisis and she can't work, who's gonna take over the mortgage? Is one of you gonna take her in? If so, who? Because remember, she's like an alcoholic, right? You don't want that necessarily around your kids. I mean, what's fair to each of you? How can you guys share the burden?

57:21How can you help each other? I know these are scary questions, but the more you can get out in front of that, the easier this is going to be, I promise. Gabe, I'm also, I'm very intrigued by this detail that her mom didn't tell her about the near heart attack. She had to hear about it from her sister. I'm not quite sure what to make of that. Neither am I. I'm confused. Was her mom hiding it from her because she was embarrassed? Maybe it could be. Or is her mom closer with her sister and depends on the sister more? Maybe the sister's like the point person in the family. Or was she trying to spare this daughter, our friend who's writing in here, the worry?

57:57All three could be true, I guess, but I have to imagine that mom knows she has a drinking problem and is probably trying to save face here a little bit. I think that's probably right. But, you know, Jordan, the part of her letter that really spoke to me is when she said that her deepest fear is that she's going to end up like her mom. Mm-hmm. She said something like, after all, we all turn into some version of our parents eventually, and that is just quite a thing to say and believe. The fact that you worry that you're going to end up in debt and alone and broke, that breaks my heart also. But I absolutely understand why that fear is so real for you.

58:33You know, one of your big models in life is a woman who really struggles. She's an addict. She has a kind of delusional hope for her life without much of a plan. She struggles to stay connected to other people. She seems to be generally resigned to her pain. And that really weighs heavily on a child. It's very hard not to inherit these patterns from our parents. or if we don't inherit the patterns, then we just inherit the vague worry that we're going to somehow fall into the exact same ones ourselves eventually. So what I find myself wanting to say to you is, no, you don't have to turn into her one day.

59:09We absolutely do not have to become our parents if we don't want to. In fact, one of the great projects of life, I would argue, is learning from our parents' dysfunction and their mistakes and whatever else they have going on, and doing the work to not end up like them and ending these cycles. But yes, it will take some work and surprise, surprise, usually therapy and a real commitment to looking at your mom's problems directly and taking concrete steps to be a very different kind of person, which I think you're already doing. So where your mom is chaotic and a little delusional, you can be steady and realistic.

59:45And where she's unhealthy and isolated, you can take care of yourself. You can stay connected to your friends and your family. Where your mom is kind of bad with money and can be a bit reckless, you can be disciplined. You can be well-informed. In so many ways, you can choose to work on these qualities. You can take this very tragic model of a parent you have and use it to show you how not to be. But I can't stress this enough. You do not have to end up like her. And based on your goals and your attitude and really everything you've shared in your letter, I have a very strong feeling that you won't be.

1:00:20Seriously, I'm having the same reaction, Gabe. Also, she's 21. She's still young. Use a baby over there. You're just coming to terms with this stuff. Man, 21, the stuff I believed at age 21. Oh, my God. And you still have so much time to do all the work and figure out what kind of person you want to be. So keep building a life of your own and trust that if the time ever comes, it'll be big enough to absorb your mom's tragedy. But you're on a very different path from hers. And that's something you should take pride in and be grateful for and keep pursuing along with your dad and your sister. And that makes sense.

1:00:57I do know. So I hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone who wrote in this week and everyone who listened. Thank you so much. Don't forget to check out our two-parter with Ryan Montgomery, ethical hacker, pedophile buster. Really fun conversation. I love the hacking and social engineering stuff. I chimed in quite a bit on this one. So it's two parts because I can't shut up. Definitely check that one out. Let me know what you think. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, and I'm teaching you how to do the same thing for yourself in our six-minute networking course.

1:01:25The course is free. It's not gross. It's not schmoozy. It's not awkward. You can find it on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com slash course. The drills take a few minutes a day. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Dig that well before you get thirsty. Build those relationships before you need them. Again, jordanharbinger.com slash course. Once again, a reminder that the Stitcher app will no longer work for any podcasts as of August 29th, 2023. So if you're using the Stitcher app, time to switch. If you're on Android, Podcast Addict is a good one, CastBox. And if you're on iOS, I suggest Overcast or Apple Podcasts.

1:01:59The Stitcher app is going away, folks. Show notes at jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts in the show notes, advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Go try the AI chat bot at jordanharbinger.com slash AI. I don't know, test it out by searching for a promo code for a sponsor you want to support, maybe. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, and you can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi.

1:02:37Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto, Joanna Tate. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. Stay tuned after the show. We've got a trailer of our interview with Cesar Millan, the dog whisperer. Caesar tells us how he went from impoverished Sinaloan kid to homeless immigrant to world-famous dog training guru.

1:03:12We'll also learn how to communicate better with animals by understanding the priority of their senses compared to our own. This and more after the cut, so stay with us for that. When I was 10 years old, I told my mom, Mom, when I grow old, I'm going to be a drug dealer. And she's, shoo, you know, slapped me across the face and said, if you want to kill me, that's what you do. And when I was 13 years old, I told my mom, Mom, you think you'd be the best dog trainer in the world? She turned around. She said, you can be whatever you want. So I spent Christmas and New Year's at the border trying to jump it.

1:03:44You get this reputation as the guy who can walk 30 dogs with no leash. So that was in San Diego. You were kind of this underground guy for a while that could walk all these dogs. In L.A. In L.A. with no leash. And the gangbangers are hanging out. Like, there goes the crazy guy with all the dogs. Don't mess with the guy with the dog. My customers were NBA players, you know, NFL players. So your word is pretty. Yeah. Nicolas Cage? Nicolas Cage, Ben Diesel. How did they hear about you? Yeah, the Mexican guy in the street. You're washing limos and you're like, yeah, I want to be on TV. People must have been like, okay, buddy.

1:04:22Most of them. I was first interviewed by the LA Times. At the end of the conversation, a lady says, so what would you like to do next? I said, well, we'd like to have a TV show. So I manifested the TV show way before producers came, and I had no idea. I didn't know that dishonesty part in Hollywood. You better have a good pack of lawyers. For more from Cesar Millan, including how animal behavior is reflective of their human owners, check out episode 162 of The Jordan Harbinger Show. This episode is sponsored in part by Everything Everywhere Daily. You've heard the phrase, learn something new every day.

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1:05:25If you want to make learning effortless and fun, check out Everything Everywhere Daily. It's quick, fascinating, and a perfect way to stay curious. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts.