869: Living in Strife Since Ending a Life | Feedback Friday

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23:21Order online at 1-800-CONTACTS.com or download the free 1-800-CONTACTS app today. Right back. Thank you for listening to and supporting the show. Your support of our sponsors keeps us going. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are on the website at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Or ask the AI chatbot on the website for any promo code anywhere on the show. Please consider supporting those who support us. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, A while back, I started dating somebody who wanted a kid. I don't want kids, so we were just enjoying each other's company.

23:59She planned to pay for a sperm donor in the near future, at which point our relationship would end, and we would move forward as friends. She also told me that if she ever got pregnant, she would keep the child, but wouldn't require anything from me. Because of the bad relationship she had with her father, she believes that if a woman can have an abortion, a man should be able to opt out and not be forced to be a father. Still, I was excited to play an uncle role to her child someday. Unfortunately, birth control failed, and now she's pregnant. I'm positive that it wasn't intentional. She maintains the opinion that I have a choice about being involved.

24:37She wants me to be there and figure it out later, but I can't shake the feeling that it'll ruin the child someday. But then my heart breaks when I think about not seeing her anymore. My girlfriend proposed one other arrangement, which is if my parents respected our decision, they could have a relationship with the child. But then I worry that the child will wonder where the father is. My mom is not happy with the decision and says I need to be there to take responsibility for the child, despite my girlfriend's wishes. Do I maintain an uncle relationship with this kid, knowing the child will inevitably realize who I am, and potentially feel abandoned and wonder why we never told them?

25:16Or do I cut ties when the child is born and let my girlfriend tell the story that she used a sperm donor? And is it possible to have legal documents created that would allow us to treat this as a sperm donation? Signed, looking for an exception after this ill-fated conception. Oh boy, yeah, this is messy. I don't know if there's an easy answer to this question, frankly. This is one of those situations that are just kind of inherently problematic and there's no way around it. I mean, either you stick around and remain a father to a child that you don't or I should say didn't want, or you abandon a child that you helped create or you play uncle to this kid and create a huge secret, which is I'm stressed out just even thinking about that.

25:59You're gonna pay a price in any of these scenarios. And the question is, which things are you willing to give up? In what ways are you willing to pay the price? The reality is the best answer here for everyone except you is to come around to the idea of being a father. And I'm putting a little asterisk next to that because I got something to say about that later. But I know this is not what you wanted. I respect that. Here's where the asterisk comes in. I'm going to take my one shot and say that becoming a father is the absolute best thing that has ever happened to me in my entire life, bar none.

26:36When I think about how much I love my kids, my heart opens up and melts. I'm a totally different person in all ways that I think are good. Although the vulnerability is a little scary. I'll give you that. So while you seem to have made your decision, I implore you to just think about it some more. Don't convince yourself if you don't want to, right? But if you can stand the thought, just maybe see if you would reconsider. I'm going to get off my soapbox and straight onto another soapbox. Gabe, I got to say, I am very frustrated with her for saying she would keep a child if she ever got pregnant with him, which is exactly what happened knowing that he didn't want children.

27:15I know he says it's unintentional, but I'm also like, you know, hand on chin emoji over here with that one. Well, especially because she had a bad relationship with her father, right? I mean, she's taking this stance that she believes is kind of evolved, which is, well, if a woman can terminate a pregnancy, a man should be able to leave. Fair is fair. But then it's like, isn't having a child with a guy who explicitly said he doesn't want children also setting up that kid to have a complicated relationship with their father. So she's helping create a situation that is, I don't know, similarly, if not equally problematic, just because she really wanted to have a baby.

27:51Yeah, you're right. Or because she doesn't believe in abortion, which, you know, totally her choice. Well, her and his choice, theoretically, or at least mostly her choice, whatever. I don't want to go down that road. But I'm a little worked up, mostly on the baby's behalf. Right. Because the baby has zero say in any of this. And now that kid's going to have to inherit a conflicted father, well, maybe, and a potentially kind of weird story. So I think you need to decide one way or the other if you're going to be involved in this child's life. And I'm not sure that pretending you're an uncle is the way to go.

28:25Either you guys need to separate and you need to not be involved at all and make a clean break, keep things neat, let your girlfriend pretend it was a sperm donor, which, of course, would deprive your child of a father and probably eat away at you for the rest of your life. And I'm not trying to guilt trip you into doing what I've suggested. I'm just saying what I think might happen. Or you need to stay involved in your child's life and maybe you're not married or parenting full-time, you're co-parenting in some way, but you're around. The child knows who their father is. And yes, it's unconventional, but you're present.

28:58The kid doesn't feel unwanted. Man, I just think that's the correct thing to do. And it sucks because it's like not what you wanted, but we gotta think about the kid here. and not like the fact that Jordan would love to go to Spain. Because I'm with you, man. Like, trust me, I'm ashamed to admit this, but I shouldn't be. There's not a week that goes by where I'm not like, oh, man, if I hadn't had kids, I'd be able to do this other thing. But then I love my kids and I don't regret it. So it's just a really tough choice. I wonder how old this guy is, Gabriel. Because if you're in your 20s or early 30s, man, you just saw all your fun travel plans and living abroad kind of go down the drain.

29:35Not necessarily. it can be done, but this is a torpedo in the hull of all your life plans at any age. The uncle option seems very risky as well. We talked about this on the show a few months back. These secrets, they got a way of coming to light eventually. First of all, DNA testing aside, who knows what everyone might do at some point, kids often sense that the guy who always hangs around and looks a lot like them is maybe their dad. My friend's going through this right now. He looks exactly like his uncle who happened to live with them while he was born and before that. Wow. He's asked his parents and they never go, what are you talking about?

30:11That's ridiculous. They just explode in rage and refuse to talk about the situation. So he's like, yeah, my uncle's my dad. And also he's got a cousin who really looks a hell of a lot like somebody who would be a sister. I mean, it's basically a female version of him. Wow. Now, granted, if it's his cousin, that's totally possible. but it's also very possible that she's his sister. Yeah, it's been a whole messy thing and now he doesn't talk to his parents and it's like just one of many things that went wrong. So this gets messy and it gets messy in a whole other way that is avoidable. Yeah, then you're stacking lies on lies at that point.

30:45And you're creating confusing relationships. I think that's gonna take a toll on you and the child. You're looking at this kid that you can't acknowledge for years and then what if you change your mind as you get older and you're like, hey, we should tell Timmy that I'm his dad. And she's like, no, he's going to hate me. And it's like, well, okay, great. How do we undo that knot? Right. It's going to take a toll on the kid feeling close to this uncle, not knowing that the dad they probably wish for every night before they go to sleep and cry about is living right there. Yeah, and is already in your life.

31:14You just can't acknowledge it. I mean, that's so screwed up somehow. And then when it all does come out eventually, which it probably will, then it's like, well, why did you lie? Why did you hide this from me? Do you really love me? I mean, it's so much more painful. It is. And I just don't see that going well at all. As for whether it's possible to have legal documents created that would make this a sperm donation, and by the way, that's how the secret's going to come out, right? Because those are going to end up somewhere while they're cleaning the basement. We're not experts in this field by any means, but we did some homework.

31:44It turns out that these sperm donor contracts, they're very important. And they're also surprisingly complex. California makes it a little easier. I don't know where this guy is because we have so many same-sex couples that it's often like, okay, this is my brother's baby with the sperm, but you know, it's our kid because we're two lesbians or whatever. It's way easier here, but other states, not so much. Basically, if you guys drew up paperwork that classifies you as a sperm donor, you'd also be establishing other crucial things, clarifying the legal rights and responsibilities of all the parties involved, creating a basis for legal parentage, providing evidence of the party's intent in the event of a legal dispute, stuff like that.

32:24These agreements, they define child support, visitation rights, how future contact between you and the child will be handled, all of which can and probably will get very messy down the line if you and or your girlfriend ever change your minds about what you want this relationship or arrangement to look like. Like if she ever wants to move to another state or she changes her mind and she's like, actually, I could use some child support. or you're like, actually, I kind of like, you know, this is great. Maybe I should spend more time with this child even if I'm lying about being an uncle or you know what, let's do the dad thing.

32:57And she's like, great, I want 20 years of back child support now. And you're like, well, oh crap, I can't do that. Cool, I'm gonna hold this against you. You don't know how things are going to change and progress in the next decade or two. And that's dangerous in my opinion. Now, what we couldn't figure out from our research is whether you can draw up one of these contracts after conception. At that point, this might just be an unplanned pregnancy, which makes you a parent, not a sperm donor, but we can't be sure. If any lawyers listening right now know the answer to that, it's very specific and maybe easier than we thought.

33:31Please write us. We can pass that information along to our friend here. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's state dependent, like literally everything that has to do with stuff like this. So your best bet is to contact an attorney in your state, a family lawyer, or somebody who specializes in assisted reproduction law. And do that yesterday because I don't know how far along your girlfriend is, but things might change dramatically after the actual birth of the child, especially because these laws, they always change state to state. We're gonna link to a few good websites we found in the show notes.

34:04Those might help. But again, if you find a way to be classified as a donor, be aware that you are probably also narrowly defining your rights, which might suit you just fine for now, but be prepared for that. This is incredibly tricky stuff. I'm actually sorry this happened. I'm not gonna lie, I'm a little frustrated. I find this whole situation very avoidable and sad. But here we are, time to adapt, man. Big boy pants, big everybody pants. And look, maybe you'll learn to be a great dad and you'll have a blast being in the kid's life. I personally, sincerely hope that's the case because that's the best outcome for everybody is if you enjoy it and the kid loves having you as his dad and there's not all this drama after he's born and who knows, maybe you even get married at this woman and it's a happily ever after situation.

34:48But regardless of how you feel, I'm afraid you really do owe it to the child to be as present and frankly as honest as you possibly can. So good luck. You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier if you're finding dead squirrels in the mailbox, your stepdad's got your nude photos, your neighbors are eavesdropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or you're trying to decide whether to flee your partner's homeland in the event that a war breaks out, hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com.

35:20We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. And by the way, we've relaunched the newsletter for the show. It's called Wee Bit Wiser, bite-sized gem or two from a past episode from me to you delivered to your inbox once a week. All the great takeaways, reanalysis of episodes that you may have missed or haven't heard for a long, long time. And if you want to stay connected to our library of past guests and ideas, come check it out. You can sign up at jordanharbinger.com slash news. Okay, next up. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. My wife takes a prescription sleep medication. When it starts to take effect, there are about 10 minutes before she falls asleep where she gets really talkative and has no filter.

35:59She has zero memory of what she says, but will agree that it's true if asked about it later. Good news is, she's apparently still in love with me after 25 years and has never said anything hurtful. Frequently, though, she'll talk about sex. Let's just say kind and gentle isn't how she wants me to act. These requests are not completely out of character for her, but dialed up to 10. If I try to talk to her about it, I can tell she's initially eager, but then she gets nervous to the point where it affects her mood before anything can happen. I'm usually the one less comfortable talking about sex, so this is not what I'm used to.

36:35How can I discuss what I should or shouldn't do while making her feel more at ease talking about it? Signed, getting blocked when my wife balks at this edgy pillow talk Gabe, this reminds me of that song from the 80s by the Romantics You know, I hear the secrets that you keep I don't know the song When you're talking in your sleep It's a very, very 80s track, 1983, man The album is called In Heat, so gross By the Romantics But yeah, man, wow, interesting So, when your wife is disinhibited by the medication when she's all drugged up She's honest about what she wants in bed. But when you talk to her when she's not impaired, she gets embarrassed, she shuts down, which, I mean, look, this totally makes sense.

37:19In a way, it's very sweet. She's still in love with you after 25 years. She still wants you, that's awesome. But I can see how this puts you in a tough spot, right? She probably grew up not raised to talk about this kind of stuff at all or even think about it. And also, kudos to you for finding a freak in the sheets. I mean, that sounds fun or potentially fun. So this, again, is interesting. My impulse is to say, you guys need to talk openly about this, work through her conflict around the type of sex she wants to have and just start, just go for it, start exploring. But talking openly about what your wife wants in bed, that's what triggers her nerves and tanks her mood and that's the obstacle.

37:57So I think you have two angles here. Both are compatible. Option one, a shitload of booze. No, I'm kidding. The real option one is you take charge a little more. you don't talk as directly about these fantasies. You just start experimenting. Try out some of the things she wants. See how she responds. Be respectful. Move slowly. But take a chance. You guys have been married for two and a half decades. There's a lot of love and trust here. So I think you have a strong foundation to work with. I think there's a good chance your wife doesn't actually want to talk about this. She just wants to do it.

38:31And I understand that. And part of the fantasy might be you doing it without fricking turning it into a clinical case study in the psychodynamics of BDSM or whatever. This is not a discussion session led by a TA in a medical school. To be clear, I'm not saying do anything without her consent, even if that is part of the fantasy. I know that stuff gets complicated. You can check in with her a bunch to make sure it's all welcome. I just mean maybe the better approach isn't to intellectualize this, but explore it in action. Maybe just experiencing it will be the thing that removes the self-consciousness, not the over-planning.

39:07And then you ease into this more and more and more and probably have a lot of fun. Like, I don't think you need to be like, what kind of plastic sheeting do we need to lay down on the floor before? And that's not, you know, that's not romantic. Option two, your wife does some work on her own to work through what sounds like shame attached to some of this. If she has her own conflicts around what she likes, which is very common, she might have to resolve that first. I assume you can do that on a Zoom session with a therapist who probably does this stuff specifically. My hope is that she can learn to resolve that with you, either in the talking or in the doing, but you might have to be patient while she comes to terms with some stuff on her own.

39:45I would also keep inviting her to explore this when she wants to and to make it as safe as possible for her to open up about, because I could imagine a situation where, you know, Jordan, I'm just picturing like, she says this thing, he gets intrigued, she gets kind of excited when they talk about it the next day, but then she hits this wall and she shuts down and then maybe he retreats and doesn't want to go near any of that because it seems kind of overwhelming or off-putting or just like confusing and then they don't talk about it anymore until the next time she pops a Lunesta or whatever and then that might be reinforcing this cycle of I want to talk about it, I can't talk about it where are we?

40:21Yeah, Lunesta, hmm, I might need some of those myself Jen has a lot of trouble sleeping these days you know what I'm saying Anyway, if you guys can stay connected even when she has this response, that might be the bridge that gets you across the gap. And I think the gap widens every time you try and fail, and then you each retreat. Does that make sense, Gabe? That's exactly what I meant, yes. And then all that said, I would also listen to any potential signals that your wife doesn't actually want this. Who knows? Maybe she's got Lunesta brain. Maybe she's saying stuff she maybe kind of wants, but when it comes down to it, it's just like, it's a little bit turnoffy.

40:57It only exists in her mind. She doesn't really want it. Again, stuff can get complicated. Didn't Roseanne Barr pop an Ambien and then just go full KKK on Twitter? It's hard to know when the sleep medication brings out a false you and when it brings out the true you. But I think she also did something else that was super racist recently. Yeah, a bit dicey with Roseanne Barr as in the case study, but I take your point. Yeah, she might be a bad case study. She might just be somebody who is actually racist and doesn't need the medication, just uses it as an excuse. So I know I'm contradicting myself a little bit here, but talking is still important just to check in and help your wife get clear on whether she does or does not want this type of intimacy.

41:35But again, you guys won't really know until you try. And look, this isn't like some random girl you're going on five dates with. It's your wife of 25 years. So I feel like you can roll the dice a little bit and she's not going to be like, I feel violated because of you. And I didn't, I'm not comfortable saying anything. I mean, it's your wife of decades. So give it a shot as long as everybody's sort of kosher with it. I have a feeling it's going to go well and good luck. And, you know, keep a tuba icy hot by the bedside. Make sure to stretch and warm up, man. You don't want to pull a hammy while you're getting your Discovery Channel going.

42:07You know what you won't need highly potent prescription drugs to confess your desire for? The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and you found the advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all in one place, jordanharbinger.com slash deals. They're also in the show notes or ask the AI chatbot on the website as well. You can even email me, jordan at jordanharbinger.com.

42:38If you're too lazy, I'll dig up the code for you because it is that important that you support those who support the show. It keeps us going, makes it possible for us to keep creating these every week. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next? Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm 37 years old. I live in central Mexico, and I work for a Japanese supplier in the automotive industry. I'm a salesman, a customer service person, and a project developer. My work is to get new business, make things happen, and get yelled at when everything goes wrong. I always go the extra mile. I'm the kind of guy who stays one or two hours extra in the office, comes in on weekends, solves all kinds of problems and worries way too much about things that are not my job.

43:24I get lemons and make lemonade. In the past, this has awarded me promotions and the respect of my peers, but lately I've realized that this model doesn't work anymore. I've been promised a promotion for three years by two different bosses. The last one, before returning to Japan, told me he was going to promote me to sub-manager, but it never happened. He went back to Japan months ago and left me with a ton of work undone. Now I have the work of an acting manager without any of the compensation. I know I'm not getting the promotion. I already asked, and I just got silence. So I'm rejecting all the new work and setting boundaries with my bosses.

44:04If I'm not a manager, I shouldn't do manager's work. But that's not a solution. I know my time here is over and it's time for a new job. I just want to learn something from this experience. How do you balance going the extra mile with protecting and valuing your time. How much is too much? Signed, el que se alquila en la maquila. Oh, snap. So we're doing sign-offs in different languages now? That was actually from the guy who wrote it, and kudos to you for that one, hermano. I like that one. That reminds me of Arrested Development. Hermano. Hermano. Yeah. So I think that means the guy who rents himself out in a foreign-owned factory in Mexico.

44:44It's nice. I mean, that is a good one. That is a great one. Very good. Well done in Spanish as well. Although, is it easier to rhyme in Spanish? It seems like it might be. I actually think it is a little bit sometimes. Maybe we should outsource the sign-offs to this guy. There you go. Kind of like how this Japanese company is outsourcing automotive parts to his factory. He clearly does not have enough work to do. Right. You're only doing one or two unpaid jobs. Let's give him another one. He needs more lemons to make uncompensated lemonade out of. Exactly. Let's dive into this because he's actually asking a really good question.

45:14So if you listen to the show regularly, you know, Gabe and I are big fans of going the extra mile Whenever people write to us saying like, hey, I want to get promoted. I want a better title. I want more responsibility Our response is always great Stop waiting for permission Show your bosses what you can do just by doing it and act as if you already have that promotion You know not doing other people's work, but going the extra mile do that for three four six months however long it takes to generate real results that you can then go to your company and say, hey, look, this is what I've accomplished.

45:48This is how much I care. I'd love to be compensated for this value that I'm creating for you. And that conversation usually goes very differently from the typical, you know, hey, I wanna rise up. Please give me a chance. It's a totally different paradigm for rising up. I remember a long time ago, I hired a guy. He wasn't really performing well. and he said something like, well, if you guys make me a partner, an equity partner in the business, I'll do more work. And we were like, when can we fire this kid? Because he does not get it. Now, I've seen firsthand how this works, but it doesn't always work because sometimes a company just can't or will not reward you.

46:26And that sucks, obviously. So that's where you need to make a call about the limit in terms of going above and beyond. Every company is different. Sometimes it takes a few months to know whether you're gonna get what you want. sometimes it takes a year or more, but he said it's been three years of this now. That is more than enough time to know that these people are not valuing you correctly. And maybe I'm talking out of school here, but I feel like I've heard this about Japanese companies before. It's like, oh, you're not Japanese. You are not going to ever get into a leadership role because that's not how we roll, period.

47:00Interesting. I don't know if that's the case here. I mean, they are in Mexico. Maybe there's other Mexican managers at the level he wants to get to. But I mean, how much of a beating do you need to take at this point? Since you know this promotion ain't coming, my advice is you start looking for another job and you use this awesome experience you've carved out for yourself to tell a great story. And by the way, this is why you can't lose by going the extra mile before you get promoted. People ask us that a lot too. So I'm just supposed to do more work for the same pay? won't I be undervaluing myself, won't I be taken advantage of?

47:35And the answer is, yeah, at a certain point, maybe, but it's never a total loss because if your company refuses to reward your hard work, you now have a ton of experience to speak to in interviews. And that is an amazing pitch to a prospective hiring manager. Yeah, I was a salesman and project developer. My job was to drum up new business, but I actually did the work of a sub-manager without anyone asking me. I handled this and this and that, and I managed a team of N people. I constantly look for problems to solve. That's the experience that I want to bring to your company. Now, your boss might not have formalized the promotion and the pay, but it doesn't matter because you gave that promotion to yourself.

48:19And now you're taking all of those accomplishments into your interviews for the next position. Could not agree more. And that's what you're learning from this experience, that you did so much right, you just probably did it for longer than you should have, which is totally fine and honestly speaks to your great character. So next time this happens, if it happens, I hope it doesn't, but if it does, you'll know sooner whether a company is willing to reward you and you'll make a move a lot sooner if you have to. The way to balance going the extra mile with still valuing your effort is, I think, to do great work while also paying attention to the signals that you're receiving, you know, the way your colleagues treat you, the feedback you get, the degree of responsibility you have of the influence you have.

49:01Yes, of course, the money you make the title, the quality of your relationships with everybody else in the office, that'll tell you what you need to know. You know, we can't sit here and tell you something like, you know, only work hard for five and a half months, and not a day longer or whatever. Or, you know, just stay until 645. After that, you're a sucker. It doesn't really work like that. Every situation is different. but you know in your bones when people take you seriously and when they value you and after a while you kind of know when they're going to reward you with the external stuff so generally speaking i would say what jordan after nine months maybe a year of chasing a promotion if you're not getting any closer to what you want then it's probably time to reevaluate but i wouldn't let this negative experience here with this promotion kill this incredible mindset of yours because you have so much to offer, dude, and you're a real leader, and employees like that are a gift.

49:55Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I would say one caveat is if your bosses are telling you you're biting off more than you can chew and you should focus on your own job, then it's a problem because what they're saying is you're not getting your own job done. Stop trying to do other people's jobs. Right. But if that's not happening and they're like, yeah, you're doing a great job. We love all the extra work you're doing. Can I have a promotion? I, well, I don't know. Then they're taking advantage of you. So don't give up on being generous. Don't stop looking for ways to be useful. Just be a little savvier and more responsive to these signals.

50:25And now that you're here, go find a company that values you. When you find it, this whole chapter is going to make a lot more sense, and you're going to feel so much better about your killer work. And good luck, man. Gabe, what's interesting is now he has three years of experience, but he's going to go into this position new, and they're going to be like, man, this guy is really cut out from management. Look at him. He's just sailing because you've already done the work, that job for three years, which is long. You probably should already be promoted to the next level already. Plus, this guy really knows how to rhyme.

50:55So yeah, that's true. We need to get him all over the office puns to hire this guy's stat. That's true. Now, whether the Japanese people will appreciate his Spanish pun game is up in the air also. Before we wrap up here, we got a really fascinating letter from a listener who managed to escape not one, but two multi-level marketing organizations after going through some pretty wild experiences. Gabe, you want to read that for us? Sure thing. So the letter goes, Hi guys. For many years, I was involved in a multi-level marketing company called Monat, and was also part of an MLM coaching group called Rank Makers.

51:28Long story short, I was caught up in this for five years. Through the coaching group, I kept purchasing additional coaching and eventually purchased the 100k inner circle coaching, which involved being part of yet another Facebook group, watching more videos with the promise that I would achieve the holy grail of the six-figure income through my quote-unquote network marketing business. Many of us involved in MLMs get sucked into purchasing additional coaching because our quote-unquote businesses don't grow. We believe there's something wrong with our mindset, that we have limiting beliefs, that we're sabotaging ourselves.

52:05I was a very good cult member and did at least one Facebook Live every single day for three and a half years. I would do these videos on all kinds of content that often had nothing to do with MONAT and use them as a lure for people to comment on. I would then send them a DM and strike up a conversation to see if they'd be open to taking a look at a video for making passive income. Then one day I was out hiking and this guy partway up the trail flashed me. Dude was full-on buck naked. My instincts to run kicked in, but simultaneously I was scolding myself. Don't be rude. Don't make him feel bad by taking off.

52:44I had two voices raging inside of me, and as I took off running, I became angrier and angrier at myself that I fought against my instincts in this disturbing, toxic positivity kind of way. But still, like a good cult member, I made a Facebook Live at the top of the mountain about this douchebag guy. Because of that video, one of my non-MLM friends sent me a link to your Gavin DeBecker interview on the gift of fear. I felt so validated listening to that conversation. I don't know how much you know about being in an MLM, but for me, my brain could not process anything that was against the MLM. It was like a brick wall would come down and all I could perceive was hate.

53:23In these groups I was a part of, fear was always described as false evidence appearing real. Listening to the interview, I was like, no, fear can also be our instinct. Nothing false about that dick on the trail. Exactly. Can't argue with that. Slowly, I began waking up more and more. When I watched Lula Rich, the documentary about the famous MLM, I remember not being able to hear Robert Fitzpatrick, the guy who wrote Ponzi-nomics, talk about how pyramid schemes work. It scared me. But I wanted to hear, and that brick wall in my brain just came down. Finally, a year and a half ago, I left the MLM and the group and began speaking out against them on social media.

54:03I got into therapy with a psychologist who had experience working with people involved in cults and was also against multi-level marketing. I had one goal, to see my MLM coach get out, and she did. She's joined me in whistleblowing against the coaching group. I continue to speak out and have helped others exit their MLMs and rankmakers too. A number of things stand out to me as I heal and move on from the shit show I was a part of. Your interview with Gavin DeBecker and that Facebook post you wrote about MLMs both encouraged me to begin thinking critically when people within the MLM told me to avoid people like you.

54:36I eventually sent you a message thanking you, and you were kind to me, even though I knew you were against multi-level marketing. Thanks again for the content you create and the people you're helping by create it. This time, the thanks is coming from me being free. Signed, Julie. So, of course, I loved this email. It's one of the more fascinating ones we've gotten from folks in the MLM world or who get out of the MLM world. We get a decent amount. As you guys know, I am kind of on a mission to expose multi-level marketing scams wherever I can. I just find them to be one of the most absurd, destructive models out there.

55:13But it's really what they do to people's lives, their worldviews, their relationships, their sense of self that gets me fired up, the way they operate like cults in a lot of ways, how they make it very difficult, if not impossible, to see outside of the oppressive bubble that they create. So what moved me about this letter, well, so many things, right? But what really stands out to me is the courage it must have taken our friend here to step outside of this programming and start questioning what she was being sold. Totally. This is one of the hardest things to do in life, this very basic form of independent critical thinking, because it means having to potentially give up many sources of support, right?

55:57The prosperity, connection, safety, financial, as well as emotional and intellectual support. I'm not just talking about Facebook groups, but a lot of times your only friends are people from these MLMs. They'll cut you off. It's like being in a real cult, really. It's like being in a culty church where you get excommunicated, right? You're a hater now. And a person who can do what Julie just did and listen, not even agree with everything she hears, but just listen, that is brilliant. But to me, this is about being willing to be in contact with reality, to reassert your own needs over the control of organizations that only want to profit from their members' extreme vulnerability.

56:36That's all this is. One of the themes we hear again and again on this show is the mental prison that people construct around themselves. And we all do this to some degree, whether it's with our beliefs or our conditioning or our stories, it could be political, it could not be. I know how hard it is to walk out of those prisons, especially after years of being inside. So when Julie talked about being scared during Lula Rich, but still wanting to hear some difficult truths and also being ready to hear them, I mean, that's an important factor too. And that brick wall in her brain came down, I mean, standing ovation.

57:09because that willingness to tolerate the discomfort, that healthy tension of being confused and uncertain, which the human brain hates, by the way, that is so important. It's table stakes for finding the people and ideas you need to help you, enrich you, make you better. But again, it takes genuine courage and humility. And for some people, including a lot of people caught up in predatory organizations, it's just too threatening. But you did that and look where it got you. I'm insanely proud of you. Really, I am. And I'm very happy that you got out. Man, I am too. It's an extraordinary story. I'm also fascinated by that story about the hike.

57:49I mean, this guy who flashed her and inadvertently led her out of an MLM. She was questioning her reaction to him. It's interesting that it took something so bizarre and, I don't know, like dangerous and primal, I guess is the word that I'm looking for, to shock her back into her natural instinct. Yeah. I mean, the whole false evidence appearing real. It's like, well, okay, how do I square this? That's pretty real. Yeah, it was real AF. And it actually makes sense, right? A lot of times people caught up in coercive organizations or dangerous relationships, they need an experience like that to come back to themselves.

58:22Because when you're threatened in a more primal way, it kind of cuts through the BS and right to the core of who you are. You know, you're back in touch with your organic responses, your healthy fear, your protective anger, whatever it is. And then when you're like, so-and-so guru would say, this is false evidence appearing real. Your amygdala is like, I don't care what Karen said at the last circle up meeting on Facebook, whatever. There's a wiener in your face, man. You know, you're hiking for God's sake. So you're like, okay, a creep frigging flashed me in public and I'm here worried about his feelings.

58:55What the hell is wrong with me? It really just, it brings the programming into stark relief. Yeah. Good term. So you see how this conditioning and propaganda in her case, it's this toxic positivity, how that stuff sits on top of your very intelligent, indwelling instincts. And that's a moment where you go, okay, crap, I can't even trust my legitimate need to be physically safe. Where did that message come from? This also reminds me of our episode with Sarah Nippy about NXIVM. You know, there were a few of those oh shit moments, like the brick wall is slowly coming down moments. And they had to stack up before they finally decided to leave and blow the whistle.

59:32Because the branding they did in that cult, I mean, much more dramatic and very weird. But it's kind of a similar thing, right? It's like, wait, I'm letting them physically hurt me now? Like I'm letting people friggin' mark me? Something isn't right. Yeah, she got branded on her vajayjay. If you haven't heard that episode yet, that was a wake up call. And also very primal, right? the pain involved with that, that's another primal experience that can shock you into taking a huge step back and questioning what you are a part of. And it's crazy that it takes something that enormous to do it. But that just speaks to how powerful these structures in your mind can be.

1:00:07That was episode 770 and 771. By the way, if you want to hear what it's like to be inside a sex cult, one of many sex cult episodes we've done, I guess. It's funny. This also reminds me, I mean, it's not funny at all, but it's interesting. This also reminds me of the letter we took a couple months back from the woman who, do you remember the woman who grew up in that religious cult and then she got a traumatic brain injury in a car accident? Yeah, Amanda Catarzi. Yeah. Oh yeah, Amanda. But I was actually talking about the woman who wrote into Feedback Friday. Oh, oh, oh. It was like similar to Amanda.

1:00:33Yes, good point. This was like six weeks ago or two months ago. And suddenly her brain was different. Her personality was different. Her needs were different. And suddenly she saw how toxic the community she grew up in was because then nobody took her seriously and nobody really wanted to help her after she had helped them for decades. Right. In a very different way, she also had to come back to her basic needs, too, through the serious accident, which ultimately led her to wake up. And that was fascinating. That was episode 842, by the way. Right. Also, and Amanda Catarzi also grew up in a cult and was being trafficked and she got in an accident.

1:01:04And that was her wake up call. There's really a theme going here. Yeah. So there it is again, man. This is so fascinating. All these stories have this element of physical danger or physical vulnerability. It's just that's not a coincidence, I think. But here's the good news. We don't need to get branded or flashed on a hike or hit by a car before we can start thinking critically. We can start now by keeping an eye on our biases, staying connected to our healthy skepticism, choosing to remain open to the facts. But it's good to know that life has a weird way of serving up the experiences we need to wake up sometimes anyway.

1:01:40So, Julie, it's hard to express how much this email means to us. We're thrilled our show could play even a small role in you waking up, so to speak. I thank you for sharing your story with us and using your real name, which you actually encouraged us to do, because you said the best way to deal with the shame that these groups created is to own your story. And I really admire that. You're an amazing model for tons of people caught up in questionable groups. I'm not exaggerating when I say you're a frigging champ and a hero. And I wish only good things for you from here on out. and deviant free hikes too, because you deserve at least that.

1:02:15Imagine Gabe, all it took was one hairy swinging schlong to break the paradigm and turn things around. And Julie, that man on your path, that was me, you're welcome. Hope y 'all enjoyed that. I wanna thank everyone who wrote in this week and everyone who listened, thank you so much. Go back and check out the episodes with Rory Stewart, including our fundraiser with GiveDirectly to help lift a village in Kenya out of poverty. GiveDirectly.com slash Jordan is where you can find it. Remy Adeleke and our Skeptical Sunday on astrology. Make sure to check out those episodes if you haven't done so yet.

1:02:49And once again, the fundraiser is GiveDirectly.com slash Jordan. Once again, a reminder that the Stitcher app will no longer work for any podcasts as of August 29th, 2023. So if you're using the Stitcher app, time to switch. If you're on Android, Podcast Addict is a good one, CastBox. And if you're on iOS, I suggest Overcast or Apple Podcasts. The Stitcher app is going away, folks. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people that I know, like, and trust. And I'm teaching you how to do the same thing for yourself in our six-minute networking course.

1:03:21It's free, it's not gross, it's not schmoozy, it's not culty, and it's totally schlong-free. And you can find it on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com slash course. Dig that well before you're thirsty. Build relationships before you need them. Again, at jordanharbinger.com slash course. Show notes and transcripts at jordanharbinger.com. advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support this show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals, or ask our AI chatbot right there on the website. I'm at jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, and you can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi.

1:03:57This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer but not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love, and if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

1:04:29Now, I've got some thoughts on this episode, but before we get into that, here's what you should check out next on the Jordan Harbinger Show. If you're not honest with yourself, then how do you ever move your life in a positive direction? Because you're starting from a point to fantasy. Nobody can succeed if you're not honest with themselves. Revenue cures all. You know, when I talk to people in business seminars and they say, you know, John, my labor cost is high, my marketing cost is high, my promotion cost is high, my tech cost is high. But if I could raise your revenue by 30%, you wouldn't have tech cost funds anymore.

1:05:04So it's the ultimate pacifier of every problem that exists in our lives. If we focus on top line, which means I wake up in the morning and the first thing I do is how do I monetize myself right now? How do I drive revenue? That is the first thing I have to do today. Then I can deal with all of the other things that I have to do. But there's nothing more important to an entrepreneur than revenue. and if they don't wake up every morning and think about revenue first thing, they probably shouldn't be an entrepreneur. And I'm going to say something that's going to upset some people. Sometimes when I go to these businesses and I see a bartender, people say, he's been a bartender for 10 years.

1:05:42He should be the manager. No. If he's been a bartender for 10 years and he hasn't bubbled up, then he's the last guy who should be the manager. Some people are comfortable where they are and you promote them right out of the company. That guy who's been a bartender for 10 years, leave him alone. The person who's not comfortable, who's bubbling up on their own, that's the one who should be promoted, even if they've only been with you for a couple months. I don't believe that you can make a leader. I don't believe you can train a leader. I don't believe you can make a leader. The Pied Piper, you would have followed him off a cliff.

1:06:13Leadership is boring. It's not given. For more no-nonsense business advice with Bar Rescue star John Taffer, check out episode 142 of the Jordan Harbinger show.