873: Custody Fiction Leads to Co-Parenting Friction | Feedback Friday

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24:45Now back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, last year, I moved into a team lead role at my company and I was very surprised to learn that a software developer on my team was still a junior. He's in his early to mid 30s. And this is his first quote-unquote real job, but he's been with the company for four years and his pay is almost half of anyone else on the team, which doesn't match his skills and contributions. I brought up a possible promotion for him with my boss, not a major one, just removing Junior from his title, and he agreed that he is up to par in terms of technical skills.

25:18The issue, according to him, is this guy's negative attitude and complaining. He needs to quote-unquote grow up. Earlier this year, I put him in charge of an important project, which he's shown good results on. I hoped he used this to push for his promotion, but it hasn't changed his attitude. If anything, the negativity may be getting worse, although this may be related to some of his deteriorating chronic health issues. While I agree that there's some negativity on his part, especially when vegan food options aren't available, oh, I hate that detail. Yeah, now you can't hide from the truth. Man, it's so hard.

25:53It's like, you know, vegans are such an easy target, and then you hear a story like this, and it's like, bro, don't complain about not having vegan food in the office, like making the rest of us look bad. And you're making it weirdly easy for Jordan to roast me when we didn't even have that. Oh, it's coming. It's coming. Super annoying. I'm inspired now. Okay, so while I agree that there's some negativity on his part, especially when vegan food options aren't available, he also makes an effort to spread a positive atmosphere, which takes some tension out when things get stressful. See, that's, you know, that's the reputation I would like for vegans.

26:23There you go. But I'm not sure how to approach this topic with him, as his attitude has been tolerated by the company for years. It makes me hesitate to bring it up directly. How can I approach this topic in a way that nudges him in the right direction and helps him grow up? And how can I help elevate his positive qualities so that my boss sees that he's a talent worth recognizing with additional compensation? Signed, securing this title for my grumbling disciple. This is a great question. I gotta say, I love that you're so passionate about helping this junior guy get the title he deserves. You sound like a very thoughtful boss.

26:56I think it's rare to have a boss who takes this kind of interest in an employee's success, so I'm here for it. But I think you're getting some very meaningful signals, both from this junior developer and from your boss, and it's time to put those to good use. So my take on this is, if you're as passionate about this guy as you say you are, then you owe it to him to give him this feedback directly. And you've gone to bad for this kid, and your boss has turned down the promotion for reasons that are fair or unfair, but actually kind of makes sense. I mean, having a positive attitude, not complaining around the office, not whining when there isn't fricking like dairy-free oat milk donuts in the break room or whatever, which sounds like a real classic Gabe move if I'm being honest.

27:36God damn it. I knew you were gonna say that. Yeah. Wow. Can't just not talk about being vegan, can you? Even this morning, even though I brought it up. Once again, I've basically made it my mission to be the least annoying vegan on earth, but somehow you're the one who keeps bringing it up. All these jokes at your expense are just not going to crack themselves. Yeah, that's fair. I will also admit that oat milk donuts sound delectable right now, and I hope they exist because I'm going to go door dash some of that right after the show. But the point is, this kid's personality, how he behaves around the office, that stuff is important.

28:08So even if your boss's objections, they seem a little petty, in a way, they're not. This talented kid is inadvertently getting in his own way, and somebody's got to help him see that. Because you're his boss and because you're passionate about him, I think that person is you. So I would take him out for lunch or a walk or whatever and I would basically say, look man, you're doing great work. I think you're undercompensated for what you do. I fully agree with that. I'm invested in you. I want to see you succeed. One of my missions is to help you get promoted here, finally. And part of me doing that is also empowering you to put your best foot forward so you can be the kind of person this company wants to promote.

28:51So to that end, I want to share a few observations. Please know that I'm sharing all this in the spirit of you getting better, seeing yourself more clearly, deciding what kind of colleague you want to be, and I'll let you decide if slash how you want to put this into practice. Totally up to you. And then you just gently tell them about some of these sticking points, the occasional negativity, the whining and complaining, how the company views itself as essentially tolerating his attitude, which is not, that doesn't sound good at all. I would also point to a couple concrete examples so he can really see what you're talking about.

29:25The grumbling in the meeting last Thursday is better than, sometimes you seem unenthusiastic about certain kinds of work, which I got feedback like that in my first law job. And I was like, what do they mean? When? I've been here for months. What does that mean, manage expectations? What does that mean, enthusiasm? And it's just, none of it's useful. But if they were like, hey, you handed something in and you didn't tell anybody you were going to do that. We didn't hear from you for a week while you were doing it. That makes more sense. You know, sometimes we don't have examples like this in our life.

29:52And while you do that, I would reassure him that he's doing great work on the whole. He's a valuable developer. People also appreciate his positive spirit when it shows itself in so many ways, you know, so he doesn't feel like he's totally blowing it and that he's being criticized only. Just give him the full picture. The message I would aim for is essentially this. You're a talented person who deserves to rise up. And here are a few ways you might be making it harder for other people to see that. That's such a nice way to frame it. And also what a gift to receive that kind of feedback from somebody.

30:24Amen, man. Like I said, I feel like this is the kind of feedback everyone needs at one point or another, especially young people, because they don't get feedback like this. Nobody tells you how to hold a job. It's so personal. It can be really daunting to give it to somebody. So most people sweep it under the rug and then it's like, why aren't I getting promoted? Well, here we are. And it's so hard to see yourself clearly because you might have rocked it in school, but the teachers are like, I mean, I don't have to worry about managing expectations. He turned in the assignment or he didn't. I don't give a crap about the rest of it.

30:51So a lot of people, like I said, including me at various points, we just go through life with massive blind spots, especially with respect to working a real adult ass job. And we just never know. Well, yeah, it's also really hard to tell a vegan with chronic health issues that they're rubbing everybody the wrong way when, you know, they complain that no one ordered the seitan option from Sweetgreen or whatever. Jeez. It's funny. That's probably the least of this guy's problems, but, you know. I don't even know what seitan is, so it's definitely not that big of a reason. I actually don't even know if I'm saying that correctly because I've never said that word out loud.

31:21Seitan? Seitan? Seitan? What is it, though? Pretty sure it's like a soy-based... Say no more. Of course it is. It's a substitute for meat or something, yeah. Okay. This is really reminding me of something that I've forgotten about. when I was in college, I, in the second half of college, I started to get really serious about trying to find a job and I wanted to work in, in management consulting. That was my big goal. Yeah. And so I started going to these like club meetings for kids who wanted to do that. And I met this really wonderful group of students who were much further along this path than I was, and were really passionate about like getting good jobs and helping other people at UCLA get jobs.

31:55And these guys taught me everything. I was like, so not corporate. And so I had so much to learn. and I met this guy at this meeting one night. I did not know him. We did not have a deep relationship, a friendship or anything. This dude called me the next day because we had met at this club meeting and I guess we exchanged information and he called me and he was like, listen, man, I just want to tell you that you come across like a little bit like a serial killer. Like, holy smokes. Wow. I might be editorializing a little bit. I don't know if he said serial killer, but that's what I. But damn, dude.

32:25Yeah. And by the way, I've gotten that note a few times. But not the first time I've heard that. Over the years, yeah, because I do have a little bit of resting bitch face. Why do my victims always say that? That's so unfair. Yeah, like they don't understand the real me as I shovel dirt into the grave. But no, but like I just have a serious face and I can be a little intimidating. And nobody had ever pointed that out to me before. And this guy boldly did. And he was like, I'm not trying to be a dick. I want you to know that because I think it's going to become a thing in your interviews. and I've seen you be really sociable now.

32:59Like he saw me talk to other people and when I talked to him, he was like, oh, you're a completely different person from how you appeared when I saw you across the room. So I just want you to know that that's what people are gonna associate with you. It kind of like rocked me for a day. I was like, Jesus, like that was brutal and kind of intense. But I think I ended up getting jobs because of this guy. He had the courage and like the kindness to tell me in this very kind but direct way, like you need to know how you come across. And I feel like something similar is happening here. If it's delivered in the right spirit, he could really change the course of this guy's career with a couple minor adjustments.

33:33Yeah, this kid probably just grew up kind of complaining about that sort of thing and everybody tolerated it because of his health condition. And then you get to an office where people there aren't your mom and dad or your brother and your sister. And it's like, hey man, I know you have a health condition. I'm not your parents, so knock it off. We all have work to do. Pull your pants up, whatever. And he needs to hear that like once at least before it sets in. Yep, that's exactly right. And I would also, while you do that, hit pause on this goal to get him promoted just for now, because part of the point of this conversation is to see what this guy does with your feedback.

34:05You know, how does he metabolize it? How does he respond? How does he put it into action or not put it into action? That's his job. That's not your job. I love your passion for helping him get ahead. Don't get me wrong. But what you're also doing here by giving him this feedback is seeing whether this guy really is as deserving of your support as you think he is. It's a really great litmus test because your boss might be right. He might need to grow up some more before he deserves to rise up. But how do you give him a chance to grow up? And how do you find out whether he's interested in growing up?

34:34If you don't challenge him a little bit, you know, give him a chance to step up and consider if he would like to mature in this way. Indeed, or forsooth for that matter. And you know, what's interesting to me is that our friend writing in here, he kind of needs to grow up too, but in a different way, right? Oh, I see. Yeah, that's a good point. Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, but he's avoiding this conversation because it's awkward and because it's intimidating. And I get it. But these are precisely the conversations that make a great boss great. Not just that they champion you, but that they shape you, that they give you the respect of telling you where you need to improve.

35:11They don't, you're not really doing anybody. It's like our episode with Sam Harris on lying. You're not really doing anybody any favors by not telling him this. You're lying by omission. You're totally ready for this. And it's like, I hope he stops whining about the oat milk donut thing. Man, that's super irritating. Well, that probably won't affect his career too much. But what's for lunch? Like, that's a lie by omission, really. He has a chance to invite this kid to be a sort of partner to him in getting this promotion. And ideally, the kid should be driving here mostly, but rather than just making this kid, you know, like the object of his patronage.

35:43Which clearly isn't working, by the way. Ultimately, it's this kid's job to excel and rise up with our friend here's support. Not our friend's job to make the case for this kid to rise up despite his flaws, which is kind of what it sounded like in the letter. So go schedule that chat, arm this guy with the information he needs, and let him show you that it's time to drop the junior from his title. If he's really as deserving as you think, he'll take it on board, and if not, then he'll just have to figure this stuff out in his own time, which I think is fair too. And tell him about this show, because maybe there's some skills he can learn, and shame us blood.

36:18You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use descriptive subject lines. That does make our job a lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in the mailbox, your neighbors are eavesdropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or, and I can't believe I'm saying this, your boyfriend accidentally killed a guy and hasn't been the same since. I'm still thinking about that one from last week, Gabe. It's so intense, man. God. So intense. Hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous. this. Oh, by the way, the newsletter, We Bit Wiser, bite-sized gemmer too from a past episode, not the past, but like a long time ago, years old episodes.

36:53We reanalyze it, deliver it to your inbox once a week. If you want to stay connected to the huge library of past guests and ideas, come check it out. Lots of really good feedback so far. I'm very stoked about that. Jordan Harbinger.com slash news. Okay, next up. Hey, Jordan and Gabe, my wife and I have been married for two and a half years. She's from Ukraine and I'm from the US. Her mom and grandma are back home in Kiev, safe and sound, and her sister is here in the States. My wife was raised by her mom and her grandma after her dad left when she was two or three. Our relationship with them has some challenges.

37:27For one thing, her sister complains a lot about not having enough money, but then goes on vacations to California, Ukraine, and other places on a whim. A while back, my mom and I went in on some hair shears as a gift to my sister when she was in hair school. My wife's sister has never forgotten that and points out that we spend tons of money on my siblings, but nothing on her. How extravagant a pair of hair shears. I know those things are expensive, but like, that's the hill you're going to die on? Okay. That's the lock you're going to cut? I don't get it. Meanwhile, while my wife was in college, she took 12 credits every semester, worked two part-time jobs during the semester, and donated plasma to pay for rent, tuition, books, and groceries, and still had enough money to travel.

38:08Then, recently, my wife sadly miscarried our daughter due to an infection. We're doing better now, but her mom and sister regularly say that she can't take any medicine, even though the doctor said she can't eat certain foods and can't even drive to work. They're worried for her, which I understand, but her mom took it too far. In one conversation my wife had with her mom, her mom insinuated that if we had been kinder to my sister-in-law, then she would not have miscarried our daughter. I'm really at a loss here. On one level, I don't care to have any contact with at least my mother-in-law. My wife and I have talked about some boundaries we can set, which I think needs to happen, but I don't know how best to deal with them.

38:46Should I advocate that we cut them off entirely? Or is there some middle ground that I'm not seeing? Signed, officially at an impasse with this family's sass, a mother's wrath, and this lass's crass math. Wow. Okay. So your wife's family is just all up in your business. They're overly worried. They're meddlesome. And then there's the money thing with your sister-in-law, which is so transparently self-interested and petty. And in my opinion, wildly inappropriate. It's like you gave someone the equivalent of school books, given that they're in a trade, right? It's like a lawyer getting a pen, except even more functional.

39:23And she's pissed off because you don't give her, whatever. Don't get me started on that. It was this detail that you shared that your mother-in-law said that if you guys had been kinder to your sister-in-law, your wife wouldn't have had a miscarriage. That is what really pushed this over the edge for me. That's a brutal thing to say. Why would you say that? It's so manipulative. When I heard that, I'm just like, okay, first of all, you, Jace bleep that we have cultured folk listening, but also this isn't just presumptuous and false. It is manipulative and it's cruel. And your wife, she had a fricking miscarriage because of an infection.

40:01And your mother-in-law is going to use that to get your wife and you to what, give her sister more money? What is the implication here? God is punishing you guys because you're not letting your sister-in-law sponge off of you financially? How offensively ridiculous. That is deeply messed up. I am offended for you. I am taking that personally, really. This is not a healthy relationship anymore. Something absolutely has to change. So yes, there's a middle ground between tolerating all of this and cutting your in-laws off completely. and that middle ground is a relationship enabled by boundaries.

40:37And the boundary you and your wife are looking for here is, well, it's a limit to how much her family gets to weigh in on her choices, the way they communicate their opinions to her and what they believe they are entitled to from you guys. Because that's what this is. If I were in your shoes, I would help your wife prepare for a conversation with her mother and sister, maybe together, maybe separately, I don't know. I'm thinking separately. where she basically says, look, I know you love me. I know all of your opinions are mostly coming from a good place. But I need you to understand that the way you're inserting yourself into my life has become very difficult for me.

41:16Sometimes it's actually quite painful, especially since the miscarriage. And when it comes to decisions that are between me and my husband and my doctor, I now feel they are totally inappropriate. So from here on out, I'm going to ask you to keep your opinions about my health and my life and my relationships to yourself. When I want your input, I'll ask you. And if you try to tell me how I should live my life or treat certain people, I'm going to respectfully ask you to stop. And if you won't stop, I'll have to pull back on how much contact we have. Something like that. Look, it might take some time for your wife to get to a place where she feels comfortable saying that to her mother and her sister.

41:53Because something tells me, Gabriel, that this is not the first time these people have crossed that boundary. It's probably been a pattern and they're going to be surprised when they get hit in the face. with this. But when she's ready, that's the basic template for this conversation. And obviously, along the way, she can try to talk to her family about some of the specifics, her sister's expectation that you guys will support her financially, which makes zero sense to me. There has to be a pattern in the past of this happening and the way her mom responded to the miscarriage. And if they can hear her out, maybe they can resolve some of this without having to draw a ton of boundaries.

42:29I hope they can. There's a part of me, Gabe, that hopes this is some superstitious wives tale thing that the mom said that and not because she's a kooky, manipulative, awful person. Right. You know, Chinese people, they're like, you got to eat foods that are cold because it's hot out and you can't shower 30 days after pregnancy because they did that 5 ,000 years ago. And they mean well. I hope it's something like that and not just like, oh, I know how to get her to give you money. We'll tell her that God is punishing her. And this was all because she didn't buy you tickets to Disneyland. I hope that they can get this through their skulls without you having to draw tons of hard boundaries.

43:03But my guess is that this will be a process. And that process usually involves some tough conversations and some boundaries until everybody starts to settle into a new dynamic, easy or not. Well said, Jordan. I completely agree. I was just sitting here thinking about how this family got to this place, this very invasive and meshed place, because these dynamics don't just develop on their own. Exactly. Some of this might be informed by culture. Some of it might be informed by living in different parts of the world and wanting to stay close. I'm sure it's very hard for the mom to be so far away.

43:37But like you said, this family is all up in each other's business. And a lot of the meddling, especially around what his wife can do after the miscarriage, seems to come, well, like, placing aside this weird thing about like, if you gave your sister money, then you wouldn't have miscarried or whatever. But that aside, this does seem to come from a place of what sounds like great fear. And then I remember that detail about how his wife's dad left when she was a toddler, and she was raised by her mom and her grandma, right? And I'm sure that that had a huge influence on each of them in different ways.

44:08But I'm guessing that they feel profoundly protective of his wife. And a lot of their interventions are probably informed by this need to keep her safe and see her succeed and keep her close and be connected to her. That impulse is overly developed in this family, and it's often inappropriate. And it's also tinged with other interests like getting his wife to support her sister, which is misguided and absolutely not her business. But deep down, I suspect that in their own complicated, dysfunctional, oversteppy way, this mother wants to make sure her daughter is okay. And so I wonder if that might be a nice place to begin the conversation that Jordan laid out.

44:44Just recognizing that in her mom and in her sister and making them feel understood and appreciated before she turns around and rewrites a script that's been in the works for decades. Yeah, I think that's a good call, Gabe, because I think this might be very jarring for them. Remember I said getting hit in the face? And I mean, it's going to feel like that for her to suddenly want to dissect some very intense family stuff that they've probably swept under the rug for their entire life and possibly redefine the terms of their relationship Right. I feel strongly that that's necessary. But you're right.

45:15If she can be a little charitable and acknowledge that they mean well, even if that's not really the full story, the medicine might go down a little smoother. The stuff with her sister, though, I don't know if she needs as much diplomacy there. You know, to me, that's probably more of a boundary conversation. Like, I don't know if we need to work through this. It's more like, I'm sorry, you're struggling financially, but I have confidence that you can take care of yourself if you figure out your priorities. And I don't think it's fair for you to critique how we spend our money because you want some of it.

45:42Right. I agree. That's complete BS. Can you imagine saying that to somebody? You bought Veronica$54 scissors for Christmas three years ago, and you never buy me anything. Like what? Maybe, maybe cut back on hitting Legoland to fill the hole in your heart and put a fricking sock in it, Katarina. I mean, even if it's true that they spend more money on his siblings than they do on her sister, it's so awkward to ever point that out. Also, has it occurred to you that maybe we don't want to lavish you with gifts when you constantly guilt us and make it an obligation? I mean, it's like, it's reminding me a little bit about the stepwife situation.

46:20Like the mom cannot tolerate that her son really loves his stepmom. So she's yelling at her son, like, why don't you love me as much? And it's like, bro, like maybe you need to wonder why your own son doesn't want to call you mom. Yeah. It's just weird. Also, when mom is saying that I had a miscarriage because I didn't pay for your vacation to Istanbul. Like, none of this makes me want to be kinder to you or more generous. It makes me want to do less, actually. Exactly. And I'm getting angry all over again. I still can't believe she said that. Imagine actually having that level of gall. So that's our take.

46:52Your wife needs to have some tough chats with her family, respectful and peaceful ones, hopefully, but tough ones. And if they can't listen or they're not going to engage fairly or in good faith with her, then yeah, I think some strong boundaries are the way to go. In the meantime, continue being there for your wife. help her prep for these conversations, and empower her to confront this stuff because, yeah, I think it could be life-changing, and I'm sorry you guys have been through so much, but there's a lot of peace and freedom on the other side of these conversations, at least. Sending you both a big hug, and good luck.

47:21You know what else your jealous, self-obsessed sister-in-law is going to want to get her hands on? The amazing products and services that support this show. Maybe get Katarina a mattress she can lay on and think about why she's such a selfish asshole. We'll be right back. if you liked this episode of feedback Friday and found our advice valuable I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors to learn more and get links to all the discounts you hear on the show jordanharbinger.com slash deals you can always search for any sponsor using the ai chatbot on the website as well or you can email me jordan at jordanharbinger.com if you're terminally lazy I'll dig up the code for you and send it to you and if you have any trouble finding anything please do reach out to me thank Thank you so much for supporting those who support us.

48:04It keeps the show going and makes it possible to continue creating these episodes week after week. All right, now back to Feedback Friday. All right, Gabe, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, As I've been learning more about the horrors going on in China over the past few years, I've been trying to raise awareness with people I know and to cut back on buying from the company Shein, which is where I get most of my made-in-China stuff, as far as I know. So for anyone who doesn't know, Shein is a massive Chinese fashion retailer that has gotten a bunch of backlash recently for labor law violations and impacts to the environment.

48:36Basically, this all blew up recently because Shein invited a bunch of influencers to collaborate on a clothing line and tour one of its factories. And then people on social jumped on them for promoting a company that they say hurts people and hurts the environment. And I think some people were like, hey, the pictures you posted, that is a model factory, not a real factory. They're not showing you the real stuff and whether that's true or not. And people on Twitter accuse these influencers of basically being paid to whitewash the company and promote propaganda. Right. And they might be right because apparently there was like a House committee report recently that named Shein as one of the fast fashion companies that's been evading like U.S.

49:15terror flaws and violating human rights codes. So these people might slash probably do have some point in there. So the letter goes on. But I'm confused about the best case scenario here. Suppose the West's collective boycott of Xi 'an and other Chinese companies actually works. Could being useless to the CCP actually be worse for these persecuted groups than their current situation? What if that results in more organ harvesting, like David Kilgore talked about in episode 497, or something worse if the CCP no longer needs these people to be in peak condition for this kind of work? I'm already picturing you guys making fun of me for finding an excuse to keep buying from Xi 'an, but I can handle it.

49:55Signed, leading with compassion or just addicted to fast fashion? This is a really good question. And no, we're definitely not making fun of you for asking these kinds of questions. Although I can just hear your little capitalistic wheels turning, looking for ways to save$8 on a tailored suit from Guangzhou. I kid. Those savings are legit. But at what cost? You know, I have my suspicions about this, but we wanted to talk to some actual experts or people with real knowledge on this. So we ran this by my buddy, Matthew Tai, aka laowai86, YouTube vlogger, human rights advocate, and his collaborator, Winston Sturzel, aka Serpent ZA, which we make fun of him all the time for choosing that.

50:33You can't change your YouTube name. It's kind of rough. They lived in China for many years, and I'm talking about like 10 and 14 years respectively. And they run a great YouTube channel all about China, several channels, in fact. And And what Laowai and Serpensate explain, I'll call him Winston because I cringe every time I say Serpensate, explain to us is the organ harvesting trade and other forms of forced labor like cotton picking in Xinjiang, those are most likely not directly tied with forced factory labor involved in cheap products in China. In their view, these industries don't necessarily increase or decrease based on the sales of fidget spinners and blouses abroad.

51:11So there's probably no direct relationship between a company like Xi 'an and these other more explicitly horrifying situations in China. But they did say that it's looking more and more likely that if you are buying from companies like Xi 'an, you could easily be supporting less than savory working conditions and potentially forced labor, child labor, et cetera, in China. So no, continuing to buy from places like this, it's not actually helping anyone. Winston pointed out that, hey, by that logic, we should all order more from sweatshops because they give employment to kids. And if those kids would be unemployed if they didn't, then maybe they could be abused in other ways.

51:49It's like, okay, it's a bit of a stretch. And the guys pointed out that these cheap goods, they're actually being promoted to gain a foothold in other economies and displace domestic services. So in other words, and the US does this all the time, by the way, like we'll donate a bunch of grain or shoes or something to a country, and then nobody who grows grain or makes shoes in that country can stay in business because a bunch of free crap is being dropped off every week in containers. So putting aside China's awful human rights abuses, if you support these companies or apps, you might also be supporting companies that sell knockoff goods at a massive loss in some cases, simply with the goal of taking over the consumer industry in other countries.

52:30It's called dumping. So this model is almost like a loss leader for market share or political, like a way to get political and commercial influence abroad is what you're saying. Exactly, exactly. They want to drive domestic producers out of business so they can take over the market. It doesn't happen as much with clothes as it does with other items like electronics. But of course, clothing is a massive industry, which is another reason to be decently thoughtful about where you buy your stuff. And I'm not going to be like, don't buy anything from China. That's impossible because even when you buy an American thing, the components are in China, made in China.

53:03But if something is just clearly cheap Chinese or whatever garbage like clothing, you can choose to buy something better. And we did a whole skeptical Sunday on fast fashion that explains all this in case you want to dive in in more detail. So our friend here isn't like dooming Chinese people to wake up in a bathtub full of ice with a kidney missing because he stopped buying his suits from Xi 'an. No, no, it doesn't sound like it. According to David Kilgore, who, by the way, was a gem of a human being and recently passed away, he was a great guest and a great advocate for human rights and really went to bat and took a lot of flack from a lot of places.

53:37So may he rest in peace. David Kilgore, according to him, most, if not all of the organ harvesting is actually happening in prison camps, taking organs from Uyghurs or members of Falun Gong or other prisoners of conscience, not from random laborers in private companies that the Chinese Communist Party would randomly shift over from sewing machines to the operating tables if business slows down. And I know I take a lot of shots at China, but I'm gonna be reasonable here and say that somebody who works in a company is not gonna get hacked to pieces and sold for parts if their job goes away or decreases.

54:11So there you have it. Me personally, I wouldn't shop from Xi 'an just because of the level of what I know about fast fashion, Chinese or not, it's just bad for the environment. bad for the workers. It doesn't sit right with me for many reasons. It's too easy to avoid. But Lao Wai and Winston, they put it best when they said that people are going to buy what they're going to buy. And their hope is that more people understand the implications. So big thanks to Lao Wai, aka Sea Milk, and Winston, aka Serpent, said, hey, imagine picking your nickname 14 years ago. Don't judge for their wisdom here.

54:42If you want to learn more about their work, I highly recommend their YouTube channels and their co-hosted podcast, The China Show. Really awesome and fun content there. We'll link to all of those in the show notes. I would also check out my two-part interview with Lao Wai on the Chinese social credit score system. That was episode 643 and 644 if you need just one more incredibly dark reason to avoid Chinese goods these days. And of course, our recent Skeptical Sunday on fast fashion, that will really paint a picture of the dark side of this industry in general. All right, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a 15-year-old closeted agnostic slash atheist in a conservative Christian family.

55:20I think I want to come out and tell people about my beliefs, but I'm hesitating for a few reasons. First, both my parents are respected teachers at the Christian school that I attend, and I'm afraid that students and other teachers will judge my parents if they find out that their son disagrees with their beliefs. Another reason is my girlfriend. We started dating while I was just questioning religion, but now I'm lying to her about my beliefs on a daily basis. I know that we're young, but I can see a future with her. I run the risk of her breaking up with me, and if she does, I worry she'll tell people, or even blackmail me.

55:55I also don't want to make my parents sad or disappointed. My grandparents on my mother's side might try to shut me out completely and likely shame or bully my mother, which they have a history of doing. And going to church or doing anything with my family could become awkward. On the other hand, if I do end up marrying my current girlfriend, I'm gonna have to tell her anyway. I feel very inauthentic when I quietly agree when my grandmother makes absurd claims like that woolly mammoths aren't real and the devil made them, or my father's best friend dismisses astronomy because he doesn't understand the science, and I'm sick of pretending to everybody that I'm something I'm not.

56:32Should I risk the consequences of telling people my true beliefs, or should I stay closeted until I graduate high school or move out? Signed, trying not to shake when I might be burned at the stake for refusing to be fake. Oh boy. Well, look, you know, I'm very biased here because I'm not strongly religious, at least not in any conventional sense. I don't know about Gabe. We all know he prays at the altar of Erewhon, the yoga supermarket. So maybe he feels differently. The yoga supermarket. Well, yeah, you got me pegged. Our lady of the lemongrass chai, you know, several times a week, just praying, really.

57:07We all know you worship that bougie tea brand you're always drinking over there. Yeah. Hallowed be thy name, which is Rishi tea and botanicals. Yeah. Amen. But seriously, here's the thing. We have no problem with religion or religious people per se. You can believe what you want to believe. And truth be told, despite how skeptical I am of mainstream organized religion, certainly the kind of stuff that makes people doubt whether woolly mammoths are real. Okay. I'm sorry. I just got to say I'm so confused by that. Of course. His grandma thinks woolly mammoths are not real and that the devil made them.

57:42Right. So which one is it? Like, are they real or not? It's a trick from the devil. There's a world where woolly mammoths are fake, but the devil is real. But if the devil is real and made woolly mammoths, then they must be real. Dude, I think the problem here is you're trying to actually understand this. It makes zero sense. Okay, cool, cool, cool. Trying to engage with this stuff, this is just mythology, right? So if you don't believe in basic paleontology, basic astronomy, you're just living in a completely different reality. and it's not informed by any curiosity or rigor or discipline, all of which are compatible with and probably enhanced by a healthy relationship with spirituality and religion.

58:19I know a lot of Christians and other religious people, and I can't recall too many of them telling me that planets were fake or whatever. So some of the stuff your family believes, man, it's something else entirely. And as you know, it's just nonsense. So look, if you were a little older, my advice would be very simple and direct, and I'd say, yeah, you need to tell your girlfriend and your family the truth. Come out and own your beliefs. Stop hiding. And in a way, that is what I want to tell you. And you're certainly welcome to do that. But real talk, man, you're 15 years old. The costs of coming out right now are higher.

58:53It's possible that other students and teachers are going to judge your parents. You might hurt them in some way. Your grandparents might shut you out. They might retaliate against your mom. And like you said, your girlfriend might break up with you and possibly blackmail you, which that one's the least of my concerns, but that's interesting. And let's return to that in a moment. Now, none of these risks are ultimately your fault or your problem. And they shouldn't stop you if you feel the need to speak up. But they are real concerns when you live in the same house with these people, when you still depend on them financially and otherwise.

59:26So what you need to decide is if these costs are worth the upside to being fully yourself right now. I hate that you have to make this calculation, But I feel there are good reasons for you to come out. But I also think there are very fair reasons to sit on this for just a couple more years, get through high school, maybe go to college or move out or whatever, and then decide how to let your family know. Again, I don't love the idea of having to hide who you really are. I know how painful that must be, or I can imagine how painful that must be. But I also wonder if you have more to gain by being subtle and flexible right now, just given your age.

1:00:03You have your whole life to be a demonic atheist heathen who tore the family apart. But that's a much easier stance to take when you're out of the house, you're making your own money, you don't need your community's approval or like to be fed by them. Basically, when you have more power and more freedom. I think that's a great point. I'm also curious to know if he and his family can agree on anything. Like he's an atheist slash agnostic, right? But does he believe in some organizing principle, some sense of the divine, you know, a basic sense of right and wrong and how to treat other people. I guess I ask this because I think sometimes you grow up in a family and you inherit a certain, not just a belief system from them, a religion, but also like the attitude that they bring to it.

1:00:46Like this grandmother who doesn't believe in woolly mammoths, like it's a very limited version of theology, right? Like she, she has a very limited worldview and a very rigid mindset, but that doesn't mean that it, that that's the only way to have spiritual beliefs. And so it would, you know, we're not trying to tell you how to feel or how to believe, even though Jordan and I clearly have our biases, but like there might be a world where you discover your own relationship to this stuff and discover interesting and meaningful stuff within these systems that are not the way your family would have done it.

1:01:15I raise that because it would, it might be nice for you to have that if you're interested in that. But I also bring that up because maybe you can come out to your family in a way that's not quite as dangerous to them. You know, you could say, look, I don't believe in the same version of God you do. I don't believe that the devil is real. I have very different views about science, but I do believe that life is meaningful and we should treat other people well and we should strive to be good human beings, you know? I can't hide from you anymore and I don't want to go to church anymore, but I want you to know that our values deep down are similar, even if our beliefs are different.

1:01:48And also, none of this changes how I feel about you. I still love you guys and I hope we can have a good relationship even if we don't agree on everything. That would be one way to stay connected to his family and still be authentic. I hear you. I like that approach. If he's not perjuring himself or finding yet another way to hide from his family by saying that. Fair. I also think it's possible their values are completely different too. I mean, the science thing alone. It's hard to get around that one. I guess what I'm saying is there are more surface level beliefs and rituals and all that. And then there's the deeper stuff.

1:02:19And oftentimes the deeper stuff is what really matters or what should matter. But you're right. He might have to own the fact that they are just on completely different pages. Now about your girlfriend, you're right. If you end up marrying her one day, you're going to have to tell her what you believe. Anyway, we've talked about this on the show before. You can't really be in a real intimate relationship with somebody and hide beliefs that are radically different. So this conversation is coming one way or the other. But what I find myself wanting to tell you is, well, actually a few things. First of all, I think it's very sweet that you're so into this girl, but you're 15 years old.

1:02:51So, so much is going to change for both of you. The probability that this is your wife, is it possible? Yes. But I would say it's pretty slim. But it's extra slim given that you hold such different beliefs and probably are not going to change your minds at this point. But it's this other piece, I worry she'll tell people what I really believe or even blackmail me. That gave me real pause. Yeah, can we talk about that? That to me is so ridiculous. It's hard to know if that's something your girlfriend would actually do to you, or if that's just your anxiety and your paranoia about coming out talking.

1:03:25Maybe your mind is spinning out because this is a very scary conversation to have, and there's a lot of pressure in your community to conform. But if your girlfriend would actually blackmail you in some way, and Jordan, I'm struggling to even imagine what that would look like. It's unclear. Like, what would she want to get out of him? Right. What does she have to hold? I'm going to tell everybody at school that you believe in woolly mammoths if you don't take me to prom. Like what? Exactly. Come to my little sister's baptism where I'm telling everyone you listen to that Neil deGrasse Tyson podcast.

1:03:54I mean, what's the consequence here? I don't know what the stakes are, but I know we're having a laugh here, but you know what I mean? Like if she's going to actually blackmail you because you have different beliefs, I would really ask yourself if this is a relationship you want to be in. Yeah. Blackmail. My Bible stuff is a little rusty, but that doesn't sound very Christian, does it? I'm guessing it's do what I want slash stay together with me, or I'm going to tell everybody that you're a godless heathen and it's going to ruin your social and personal life. Not good. I don't remember reading, ye shall leverage thy neighbor's fears to profit for thyself in either the Old or the New Testament.

1:04:27Doesn't ring a bell, no. I just got to say, somebody willing to leverage one of your secrets in order to control you is also potentially somebody who would seek to damage or control you in other ways. Again, can't tell if this is a real possibility or just an abstract fear, but certainly something to think about. Honestly, man, and look, I don't mean to beat a dead woolly mammoth here. Yeah. I just don't see this girl working out long term. I know that's probably a huge bummer to hear. But if your girlfriend is committed to these beliefs in the same way that your family is, if she is just as rigid as they are and might hold it against you for going a different way, then I'm not, I just, you're not truly compatible, right?

1:05:06That relationship can't work. I'm with you. And again, at your age, it can be hard to have that perspective. Maybe people in your community get together super young. I mean, that's not unheard of, right? People married at 18, 20, whatever. And that's fine. I'm not knocking it if it's the right fit for you at that time, but my sense is that your beliefs are putting you on a different path from these folks. And part of growing up is embracing those values and following them wherever they lead. I'm not saying you should cut off your family or write them off, not at all. My sincere hope is that you can stay connected even if you disagree.

1:05:37They might be disappointed, but they might be like, hey, we understand. I hope they're not like, out of my house. but these folks, some of the other folks, like it just, I don't know if they're the most well-informed or open-minded, let's put it that way. And that's, that is very tough. So be authentic and have integrity, have courage, but hey man, pick your battles until you're sure that you can accept the consequences. Once you are, then these will be very liberating conversations but there's nothing wrong with sitting with them a little while longer, especially at your age, as you figure out what you wanna believe and what relationship you need to have with your family.

1:06:12And good luck. Man, I don't envy him being in this position at that age. That's tough. I would almost wish to still be firmly drinking whatever Kool-Aid until I was out of the house and then have your enlightenment. Like, the problem is, man, you're ahead of your time. You're supposed to have all of these breakdowns in college after you're already out of the house. That's when you're supposed to have your own mind. Before that, so the problem is you're precocious and intelligent, shame on you. All right, hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everybody who wrote in this week and everybody who listened.

1:06:40Thank you so much. Go back and check out Julian Walker and Paul Hutchinson and our skeptical Sunday last Sunday on personality tests. If you haven't done so yet, the best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, a circle of people I know that I like, that I trust. And I'm teaching you how to do the same thing for yourself in our six minute networking course. It is free. It's not gross. And it's on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com slash course. Dig the well before you get thirsty. build relationships before you need them. Jordan harbinger.com slash course and the newsletter, a bite or two from a past episode straight from me to you.

1:07:14Jordan harbinger.com slash news. We're going through all 800 plus whatever episodes, reanalyzing them, putting the takeaways and some funny punchy stuff and putting it right in your inbox. Jordan harbinger.com slash news show notes and transcripts at Jordan harbinger.com advertisers deals and ways to support the show. Also at jordanharbinger.com slash deals or ask the AI chatbot on the website. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn and you can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with podcast one.

1:07:48My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. And remember, we've rised by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use a little bit of the advice that we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time.

1:08:17You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger show with the world's best counterfeiter. How long does it take to print$250 million? dollars. Five months. It needs to be worthwhile. It's going to need to be perfect because perfect go big. One day for no particular reason, I was driving and thinking and I stopped at a red light. It just hit me out of nowhere. And I'm chasing something to make money from, sell something, make something, do something. All we do is to translate that into money. So we wake up in the morning to do that. I need to do something for money. Well, why don't I just literally make money?

1:08:59$1 million in$20 bills is about 50 kilos. So$250 million is 12 ,500 kilos or over eight Toyota Camrys or six Ford F-150s. That is multiple metric tons of cash. You must have been f***ing stoked, man, because you knew you were going to put$20 bills all over all of that and then just never work again. Yes. When I did bring it in and then I slammed the door shut, I was confident enough that everything I did off to that, I hadn't done any mistakes. I was good to go. By design, there are people specifically looking for you all the time. This is all they do. If you get suspected, you know, in any way, let's say you're dumb, you can tell them whatever you want.

1:09:53They're not dummies. I mean, this is as high as it goes. It's the stuff of a line. For more on how Frank Barasa printed his own fortune and got away with it, check out episode 488 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.