883: Annie Ikpa | The Campaign to End Child Sacrifice

24:54And it's really, really, really awful that they're getting away with it. It's really, really bad. It must feel good to put somebody like that away because I can't help but think that that was not his first attempt at a child sacrifice. It's just the one where he got caught. No, exactly. And in fact, since Alan, he's actually, he's given quite a few interviews and he's sort of online for people to see him, read his story. The man who attacked him actually did go on to sacrifice other children. And because Alan's story got quite a lot of traction, the BBC went over and filmed their own documentary and secretly filmed this man posing as businessmen wanting to obtain a child.

25:34and this man very openly and brazenly said, yeah, whatever you want, this is how we do it and the like. So yes, he absolutely had continued to do that once he'd attacked Alan and didn't feel in any way threatened by the legal system. It's so horrific and it really puts your work into stark relief trying to get a law passed that criminalizes this, chasing these people down essentially. There's hidden camera footage of this witch doctor explaining, oh yeah, we befriend a child, which is just adds grossness on top of grossness we befriend a child we kidnap them we murder them it's just I'm never going to forget that and I can imagine people imagine having a child and there's somebody in your community doing this and you're just what crossing the street when you see them coming I mean that's all you can do is avoid them and tell your kids to run if they see that guy it's so screwed up it's awful and I interviewed the parents as well actually as part of my work And, you know, they were just, they just felt so let down.

26:32Here is the evidence of what this man has done. And my son is telling you that this is the one who did it. But there just wasn't enough to secure a conviction. And they had to live with that with absolutely no faith. His parents really felt as though the legal system had failed them. And I agree with him. Yeah, I absolutely agree with him. And that is absolutely, their story is one of those that really spurred me on to, to find the right people to work with, to make sure that this, this bill was passed. and I'm so glad it was. I hate to harp on the horrific details, but I think it makes sense because people are wondering, you know, wait, they're burying a kid at a construction site.

27:06What's going on here? So they're taking parts of these kids and they're mixing them into traditional medicine. So that most popular, I guess, would be the head, tongue, heart, and unfortunately the genitals, which is, well, I guess they're all equally terrible. I don't know why that seems worse somehow, but it's all while the child is alive for whatever reason. and the girl who was born for sacrifice was one of the most disgusting things I've ever heard in my life. And I'm serious about this. There's a girl who was essentially raised so that they could harvest parts of her. Is that accurate? Yeah, that's right.

27:37So she was kept in a shrine for the first eight years of her life before she was obviously rescued. And she was gradually sacrificed. So the witch doctor would remove parts of her gums, her teeth, her fingernails, not taking much at any one time because obviously she was meant to stay alive, right? But they gradually sacrificed her to the point that by the time I'd met her, she was in a wheelchair. She couldn't speak. She couldn't hear anything. And they had all but destroyed her. And there was absolutely no legislation on this. The only way that anybody was to be put away was if you were to prove that they had murdered somebody.

28:23And it was so difficult to prove that with existing legislation. But we have put in this provision that allows those who do exactly what that man did to her to be put away. She is in a best place now, obviously. But that was something that I had never come across. I always thought, actually, that sacrificing children always ended up and resulted in death. And that is absolutely not the case. Yeah, it was awful. It was absolutely horrible to meet her. She had been essentially used all her life. I keep coming back to this. I know I sound like a broken record, but I just can't imagine any belief system strong enough to make this okay, especially while you're doing it.

29:00I just can't get there. I just can't get there. I remember learning about things like the Holocaust and the things that happened to extended family of mine during World War II. And with extreme belief comes all this crazy stuff, but this is like the one place I just can't get there. No matter how much I think about it, I can't imagine the path that gets you there. No, you know, we've not grown up in that world, Jordan, you know? And again, I'm not making excuses for these people because at the end of the day, they are greedy. At the heart of this are the witch doctors who are the ones encouraging this to happen.

29:36If not for them, and if not for this ridiculous idea that if you sacrifice a child, you'll become rich and prosperous, then people wouldn't be doing it. Or certainly they wouldn't be doing it at the same level that they are. You know, creating an environment where people feel like this is okay. You know, they're being actively encouraged to do this. I know it's really difficult to try and understand who would do something like this. And I feel like at the very heart, these are witch doctors who believe and understand that this is a business and a very profitable one. How do you get a law passed in Uganda?

30:10You live not in Uganda, right, currently. Right, I'm in London. It's hard enough to get a law passed when you're in the government of the country where you're trying to get that law passed, let alone you're a regular citizen living overseas. I don't want to put words in your mouth or something like that, but I know that friends of mine who are from Africa, they go back there and they're like, they consider me white when I'm there. And I'm like, you're definitely not a white guy. Like, you're... Me too. What are you talking about? But I would imagine, like, you actually have light skin, And so I would imagine they're almost like, what the heck is going on here?

30:40You're not African. Does that happen to you when you go? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It used to really piss me off. Rightfully so. Yeah. So denying my, you know, my heritage, my Nigerian heritage, and it made it really difficult to get stuff done. At the same time, it sort of, I don't know, made it all that bit sweeter when I did finally crack that wall and was able to develop really strong and, you know, lifelong relationships with people. You know, I wasn't a threat. And I think that that's very often how they feel about people from the West coming over and trying to tell them how to run their country, run their lives.

31:18I mean, who the hell am I? I'm just literally, I'm an editor. I had no legal or legislative experience whatsoever. So I was absolutely winging it. And they could obviously probably tell. I think it must have been really difficult for them to accept me into the fold. I would imagine also that there's people who are like, oh, she must be from a big NGO. They probably have deep pockets. And it's like, so who sent you here? And you're like, no, I just heard about this horrible thing and I kind of want to eradicate it. And they're like, wait a minute. You're doing this because you actually care and you have no money.

31:47Don't bother me with this. Yeah, well, money was a big thing. I realized like three or four years in, I actually need some funding to progress this, right? And that's where Children on the Edge came in. They funded me. They funded the rest of the project. and without them, it would have been absolutely impossible. They opened up, that opened up so many doors. Their emotional support, their financial support, and just their doggedness to see this through. When I finally got funding, that's when things started moving. Thanks God, because I was losing my mind a little bit. Didn't know what I was doing.

32:21First of all, you're trying to figure this out. Winging it in a Western country politically has got to be tricky. Winging it in a country where the rule of law, a little bit of this, a little bit of that, relationships are everything. And you're like, yeah, I'll fly over there and try and get something done. I mean, it almost sounds like a joke that you would get something done. Yeah, it was so funny. It was a bit of a joke. I didn't really have a plan. It was just so sort of flying by the seat of my own pants a bit, because I decided that this is something that I want to pursue, had obviously no means to do it.

32:53So I would work in London, save up enough money to fly over there and to hold a meeting with MPs and just basically run around Kampala trying to drum up this support, you know, get this sort of sense of momentum and then have to come home and work. And so this cycle just kept going for like three or four years before finally, yeah, I got funding and was able to actually set something up properly and official. And that's when things started really progressing. I would imagine this is something where once you found out about it, you just couldn't let it go because you can't give up on something like this, right?

33:26Even if it's hard, even if it's expensive, even if it's slow. So I would be thinking, I'm going to be doing this for 30 years, but at least I'll have to do it. I can't go to bed at night being like, well, I tried and it was just too hard. You're asking if I contemplated giving up? Yeah, I guess so. But also, I realized you probably did, but then couldn't. That's how I would feel. Totally. I think about seven years in, I was like, this is a bit of a curse because I want to start family. I want to live my life a little bit and do some of the things that I've always wanted to do. And because I had made this sort of like promise to myself and promise to this little girl and to so many people along the way, I couldn't.

34:05And actually, if I had, it would have haunted me for the rest of my life. So I felt like what kept me there was the passion and the drive and all of that. But also I was trapped because, you know, selfishly on the other side, I didn't really want to live with the guilt of not following this through when I knew I could. And that sounds really arrogant, but I did. I knew in my heart that this bill would pass. I just needed to keep going with it. So I thought I was doing a real disservice by stopping. It would have been lazy. It would have been lazy, understandable, but also not really your style to just be like, well, I mean, I would imagine there were many nights where you just prayed somebody would come and take this off your hands.

34:45Like we got it from here. We're a big NGO with a ton of resources and lobbyists. We'll take it from here. And you're like, thank God, but that didn't happen. Well, no, actually it did. Okay. And I didn't want to let it go. Okay. So you're even more dogged than I thought. No, I didn't want to let it go because, and again, this sounds really arrogant and I really don't mean it to be. I cared more about that than anyone else in the country at the time. And I was the one who was going to make sure that no money got spent badly, that things were run transparently and honestly. And with the children at the heart of everything, I just didn't trust anyone else.

35:20That makes sense. Until the end. And I found my core team. But yeah, no, I didn't trust anyone. I mean, you probably had good reason for that, right? You probably already tried those routes. Yes. And then it's like, we paid for this. Where did that go? Ah, well, you know, got to feed the cats. Like, what? What does that mean? Or buy some land. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Well, yeah. Have you seen my new villa? It's progressing. By the way, we need more money. And take a ride in my new car and we'll talk about it. There you go. You got it. This is the Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest, Annie Ikba. We'll be right back.

35:56If you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our sponsors. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. And we have updated our AI chatbot. That's gonna be ingesting the episodes really fast. So there's not gonna be this weird delay where it doesn't have the promo codes. And we're working on making that even faster and better for you. jordanharbinger.com slash AI is where you can search for anything ever on the show, including sponsors. Thank you so much for supporting those who support the show.

36:26Now for the rest of my conversation with Annie Ikba. I've dealt with corruption in other countries before, and I've done interviews with people before about corruption, and it's always kind of the same thing. What's interesting in other episodes that I've done about places where it's really hard to get anything done is the people who are trying to get something done, the people in country who they're dealing with who are kind of maybe pocketing some of this stuff, they're almost surprised that the counterparty in the US, UK, Australia, wherever, doesn't want to also dip into it. So I'm wondering if anybody was like, come on, this is really good.

37:00We can ride this for a while. And you're like, no, I actually want to stop this horrific practice. I was never approached, but I do know that members of my team were, and they were never compromised. This is what I'm saying. I think I never trust anyone until right at the end when I found, you know, my core team who were like-minded. Even at that time, they were propositioned. This, for some, is an unpopular law, you know, and people make a lot of money from this practice. There were lots of people, I feel, who didn't want this law to become enacted. So bribes, of course, were part of that process.

37:38So there is pushback on the law. I was going to ask about that. I can't imagine there's a lobby for witch doctors, but what other kind of powerful allies would they have? Can't really answer that. Can't really answer that. Okay, fair enough. Because, you know, in the United States, when something doesn't get passed, it seems like a no-brainer. You just need to look no further than the lobbying organization for whatever manufactures the product that's been killing a zillion people. And then you have your answer. But it seems like with witchcraft, who's lobbying for witchcraft? Who knows? Well, you do know, but we can't talk about it.

38:10I see. That's fine. Does this practice happen anywhere else? You mentioned Ghana. Does it happen all over Africa? Do we know? Does it happen in other countries that you know of? So I know of it happening in Nigeria, Ghana, yes, Botswana, Sierra Leone. It's quite prevalent in India and Tanzania, actually. In Tanzania, it's albino children who are most wanted. Oh, wow. So they've got a huge problem there. What we're actually hoping is that this bill, which is the first of its kind, by the way, should be a benchmark or can be a benchmark for other countries who are suffering from this practice, you know, to just use and adopt these provisions.

38:54Don't take seven, eight years to do this. There's no need. We have got something that is, you know, watertight and comprehensive. You just need to localize it. So we are hoping that other countries will follow suit. Albino children. How isn't that? That's extremely rare. And hence the whole reason that they're valuable. Is that why? Is it more common over there? Because I feel like in my entire life, I've seen like three albino people anywhere. There are lots. Yeah, no, no, no. There are. They're far more common in Tanzania. I'm not sure why. I'm not sure why they are more common there. It seems like aside from the fact that people are trying to kill you for your parts, it seems like a bad place to have no pigment in your skin.

39:31Just being in a place that that is that warm and sunny. And it's uncomfortable in California, I'm sure. So I can't imagine how uncomfortable it is in a place like that. On top of everything else. Yeah, no, I'd rather not imagine it. Yeah, on top of everything else. So when it passed, how did it feel? I mean, you must have been proud, but also I would imagine an element of relief after so long, like you can finally get a good night's sleep. Yeah, I couldn't believe that it was over. I knew it was going to pass, sort of. But I had this surface level doubt. Do you ever like, I don't know when you were going for an exam, I don't know what you were like at school, whether or not you crammed your your revision in whether or not you're really studious oh yeah that's like I I didn't you know when you sort of talk yourself down and you're like oh I didn't really shit with that exam but you know you sort of always know you actually did pretty well so that when you do do well it feels even better I've got this weird thing I do do that and I think I must have done that a bit with the bill because I talked myself right down to the ground in the days leading up to it and for good reason though I think it was touch and go for a while so when it did actually pass there was just this feeling of complete and utter elation, just that the last seven, eight years had not been for nothing because that was a particular fear.

40:44How are we going to live with myself if this doesn't pass? What am I going to do with my life? It was just a feeling that I really can't describe. Monumental, something that had been seed of an idea eight years before had turned into this. You must be extremely proud. I mean, you've doubtlessly saved many children's lives just because, look, putting a law against something doesn't mean nobody ever does it, but it certainly would make it harder to do, drive it more underground, make it so other people realize they can't get away with it and maybe go into a different business. I mean, there's no kind of getting around that you've saved possibly tens of thousands of children, just judging by the numbers that I came across online.

41:25I mean, that's a huge, huge number. And not just me. I'm sure that children's lives have been saved, But I had a really, really incredible team. I have to honor them. They did incredible work. And it would have been damn near impossible without my funders, without the MP who pushed this through, without the director of public prosecutions, without World Vision, without Children on the Edge. It was a real collective. And eventually it ended up being a Ugandan initiative. And that's what you want. They really owned that at the end. you know this was not mine and I don't think it ever was it was just so much bigger than just me so yes I had so much pride and I still do I have to you know it passed two years ago on May the 4th and can't put into words how much it's actually changed me and it feels like it passed 10 years ago but it was actually it was only two years ago and it's doing amazing things and it's doing what it was designed to do and I couldn't ask more than that.

42:27I heard you were able to see the bill passed but there was almost a fashion faux pas that ruined the day you want to tell us about that god oh first of all how do you blow this that particular like way to trip on the finish line but i'm telling you i'm telling you but it would have been so typically me you know um i yeah i was i knew that i wanted to see this bill pass in real life you know and i didn't care what show i was working on you know i'm freelance so it's really difficult to just nip out of a job for a week or two. But I knew that no matter what it was, I'd fly to Uganda and I would see this thing.

43:03And I got a call really early in the morning to say that the bill was being read. And, you know, when I say that I had a really crap few days where, you know, it was touch and go, it really was. So it really took me by surprise. And I had about 45 minutes or so to get to parliament. So I just threw on this jumpsuit, which just looked, it was too small for one. Is that like a tracksuit or sweatsuit? It's like an all-in-one. It's like an adult baby grown. Like a onesie. You have a onesie out. Yeah, exactly like a onesie. Yeah, yeah. We have onesies here as well. Let me just go to the government in a onesie.

43:36Well, I thought it was really nice. It was a really nice jumpsuit, but just, I'd been eating a lot and it was just a bit tight and a bit inappropriate. But anyhow, I got in this kind of motorcycle taxi, told him to just, you know, drive like his life depended on it. And I turned up and the MP who was sort of, you know, had been championing this bill, just took one look at me. I was like, you can't come in like this. You just, you can't. Where's your bag full of other clothes that you're going to wear to go inside? There's no kind of leniency with Ugandan parliament. You can't sort of talk your way in.

44:09Once he'd said this, I knew that there was, I either had to go home and there was just no time. So I got my friend to send over a bag of clothes, luckily. And in the nick of time, in the nick of time, I was able to actually change and slip in and watch this bill be read. So, oh gosh, yeah, I was very, very grateful. Wow. Because can you imagine, like, you've been on this thing for most of your 20s and some of your, you know, and you're not coming in because of literally the clothes on your back. You wouldn't have it. You wouldn't have it. And then you have to tell people for the rest of your life how you didn't see the bill pass because you were wearing a jumpsuit with too much cleavage or whatever.

44:50No, it wasn't cleavage. It was just kind of sucking kind of my skin. I didn't look nice. I really didn't look nice. And I can understand why I wasn't let in. But yeah, I would never have lived it down. Yeah, that's so funny. It's also very typically me. I mean, I drove to the wrong city for my bar exam, which is the exam you take for being a lawyer. No way. How do you do that? How do you do that? Your mind was elsewhere. It happens when your mind is literally anywhere but in the game. Yeah. So no, thank God, right? Thank God. What are you going to tackle next? I expect people ask you this all the time and you're like, nothing.

45:26How about I have kids and not think about this crap anymore? Well, yeah, that. But which is quite the challenge in itself. But no, I am still going with this. So Uganda, I couldn't say goodbye to it. So for about a year or so, I think everyone just went, like, we just want a bit of a break and some distance from this. but you know passing the law I believe was probably the easier part of or the easiest part of this whole process I want to make sure that this bill is this law is implemented I'd like to work with communities at a grassroots level there's just so much work to be done and I think no I'm not going to be and I haven't been as involved as I used to be because I'm older now and I don't literally don't have the energy I hear that I hear that I'm laughing because I I frigging get that, man.

46:17It's a struggle. And I was single then. I've got a boyfriend now. So I just, you know, I can't keep flying back. But I and my team are back together. And we are making sure that certain things are in place so that this law is used as effectively as it can be. And I think independently, I would love to see other countries adopt this and work with other countries one-on-one just to try and see if there is a way that, you know, the issues that they're facing can be. somewhat alleviated with this law. That makes sense, right? Hammer the nails in good and tight instead of taking on a new challenge that is going to derail your whole life.

46:55Exactly. And then I can retire. Yeah. Then I can retire from this, I think. There you go. You think. Yeah, you never know. I mean, you just don't know. You don't seem like the type, but kids will change you. I'll tell you that. You have children. I do. I have two little kids. One's three and a half and one is one and a half-ish. And so it's not only that I don't have the energy to do something big like that anymore. It's that if I did, I certainly wouldn't spend it on something like that because my kids love seeing me and vice versa, of course. So I want to spend time with them. I don't want to start a chain of dry cleaning businesses just to have another business running, right?

47:31Which is the equivalent. I don't know. Okay. Just, yeah. Like if I've got extra energy, I'm using it to go run around in the backyard or build a tree house. I am not using it to get legislation passed in Africa. Sure. Well, luckily that's ticked down, right? This is less intense, right? I can sort of pick and choose when I sort of go there. There's no sort of deadline for this because I imagine this is going to continue for the rest of my life. But I'm hoping that I can just make a couple more dents before I become a mom and then I'll properly slow down, I think. Good for you. Although I will say, don't wait too long for the mom thing.

48:04The earlier, the better. I wish I had kids earlier. And I can imagine that you're going to be a great mom. I mean, you're a caring person. You care about kids who aren't even yours, which I think a lot of people pretend to do, but don't necessarily. So I wish you all the best with that and with everything that you're doing. Thank you so much. Thanks, Jordan. Pleasure to be on the show. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show with Ishmael Beah, who at the age of 13 was forced to become a child soldier. I started when I was 13. The first day that we went to war, I think it was the most terrifying thing that ever happened to me, just on the way there, knowing what we were going to do, but it hasn't yet happened.

48:44Having this feeling that I was descending into some kind of darkness, into some place that was going to chip away from who I had been, that I would no longer get back truly. And then there was an ambush, and then we started exchanging fire, and people who looked like us were shooting at us. and there was a kid that when we were training had looked up to me, he was next to me, and there was an explosion and his body flew and he was scared. There was blood all over my face and everything and I just lost it. I realized at that moment that, listen, if I don't shoot, I'm going to end up like everybody else who's been killed next to me.

49:18And I started shooting. Shooting to kill and whatever could get you as high as possible. So you feel like you're kind of in a long nightmare. You took it. That becomes a new reason to fight. You didn't want to come down from the high. But there's also, because you're on the high, you also get addicted to the violence itself. So you constantly keep yourself moving, being high, engaging in more violence until you're removed from it. Which is why sometimes people are shocked when soldiers come back from fighting and they're traumatized. Sometimes they shoot themselves, they become violent. When you go and take out another life and dehumanize it, in reverse you dehumanize yourself, your own spirit, your own being.

49:56and it takes a lot of undoing. I was once a kid who loved hip-hop, run DMC, LL Cool J, learned Shakespeare, wanted to be an economist. And then I became a soldier and I started doing things that I didn't think I would ever be able to be in a position to do, but I did them. To hear about life in a war zone where he fought for three years before being rescued by UNICEF, check out episode 622 of The Jordan Harbinger Show. I forgot to ask on the show and clarify it later. I asked how common, how prevalent is this? How many kids do we think this has actually happened to? Somewhere around 10 ,000 since 2007, perhaps for sacrificial purposes.

50:35That is a hell of a lot of kids for absolutely no good reason. I also didn't close the loop on the twins. There was the boy whose twin brother was essentially sacrificed in a really graphic way. I think he saw the whole thing. Mob Justice ended up taking the day on that one. Of course, the surviving twin, he is very traumatized, but the man who did it was murdered brutally by the village. And I don't think anybody feels bad for that. I know, by the way, that we're already doing a fundraiser for the villages in Kenya, but I'd be remiss not to mention Annie's fundraiser here as well. It will be linked in the show notes.

51:07It's a just giving, which I think is a GoFundMe type thing for the UK. We'll link to that there in the show notes. It's a fundraiser to run awareness and sensitization within communities affected by child sacrifice, train up the judiciary over there and enable Annie to work with other countries that are also facing this issue. It's not just Uganda. It's apparently spread quite widely throughout Africa and even India and elsewhere so that they too can adopt and enact this law or similar law for their legal system. Again, that fundraiser will be in the show notes for those who want to participate.

51:37All things Annie Ikba will be in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com or ask the AI chatbot on the website, transcripts in the show notes, advertisers, deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show. Also in the show notes and at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Don't forget our newsletter at jordanharbinger.com slash news. We dig into an older episode, dissect the lessons and takeaways from it. If you want to know what to listen to next or just grab a gem from a past episode, the newsletter is a great place to do that. Again, jordanharbinger.com slash news is where you can find it.

52:08A lot of feedback from you guys on this, all really, really helpful and constructive. So thank you so much for that. Don't forget six minute networking at jordanharbinger.com slash course. I'm at jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me right there on LinkedIn. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, Millie Ocampo, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for the show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting, and the greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about.

52:40If you know somebody who would be really interested in this type of episode, definitely share this episode with them, maybe give them a little heads up about the subject matter. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time.