907: Sis Lives to Excess, and Dad's Remembering Less | Feedback Friday

23:02Unfortunately, he was a straight-up narcissist, and shortly after I left him, I found out that he had his license revoked for essentially being terrible to his clients. Jeez. I know how much you guys preach the value of therapy, and I believe it works. But let's say an unnamed person desperately needs help. Their entire outlook on life is hopeless. This person's health has begun to deteriorate, they are plagued by intrusive thoughts of self-harm every waking moment of the day, and they battle against suicidal ideation. They know that if they tell the therapist what is truly going on, they're going to end the session and send the client straight to the psych ward.

23:39What would you advise that person? How should this unnamed person respond when a therapist asks if they have thoughts of harming herself or others? Is there any way that someone can receive anonymous therapy so that they can work through their issues without the doctor knowing who they are or sending the police to intervene? How can this person get help without going back to another terrible hospital? Possibly by doing sessions with someone outside the United States? signed, keeping these thoughts at bay without being sent away. Okay, well, this is quite a story. You've been through a lot here.

24:14And again, I'm so sorry that you've been struggling so much. It's just, that sounds horrible. And you're a very interesting person, right? Super driven, obviously, hardworking, high functioning externally, but your mental health isn't great. And these awful experiences have made you afraid to ask for help, which I can certainly appreciate. We wanted to run all of this by an expert. so we reached out to Dr. Aaron Margolis, clinical psychologist and friend of the show. I'm also known to the people who know me the best as the f***ing doctor. And the first thing Dr. Margolis wanted you to know right off the bat was, yes, there are some therapists out there who will panic when a patient says the word suicide, especially if they're newer or they're working under their supervisor's license.

24:57And yes, all clinicians should take suicidal ideation seriously. If someone ignored a patient saying, I don't want to be here, that would be a problem. But Dr. Margolis was very clear, having intrusive thoughts, having suicidal thoughts, that is not grounds for involuntary hospitalization. In fact, she tells this to her clients all the time. Those thoughts, they are a lot more normal than we think among the general population, especially if you are going through a period of extreme stress. In her experience, a good therapist, if you come into session and you say, I'm having these difficult thoughts.

25:33They're going to want to assess you further, understand the thoughts better, help you identify their function, and hopefully address the root cause of those thoughts and work through them with you. So the thoughts are not as pervasive. They're not going to send you to a hospital straight away against your will. They almost certainly can't even do this without this additional assessment and some important information. The only way you're getting sent to the hospital against your will is if you are a danger to yourself, a danger to others, or gravely disabled, which means you cannot provide for your own basic needs.

26:08And there are factors that increase the risk of that. For example, if you have a plan to kill yourself and you have means to execute that plan, those are the variables that will make a therapist go, okay, I need to intervene more strongly here. So you should not avoid therapy out of fear of being hospitalized for suicidal ideation alone. therapists, certainly the good ones, they don't want to just cart you off to a hospital unless there's a damn good reason. They want to be in a process with you to help you get better. Your difficult experiences with these earlier therapists, notwithstanding, I think that's obviously the problem here.

26:43Like, I understand why you're terrified. Now, about your time in that hospital, Dr. Margolis had a similar reaction to us. She found your story very upsetting, very scary, and sadly, she said these experiences are more common than they should be. To quote her here, it's heartbreaking that you were harmed by the very people who should have helped you. But again, talking about this with a therapist, it does not mean you're gonna get schlepped back to that hospital or to any hospital for that matter. This fear cannot stop you from getting the help that you deserve. Definitely not. Now, after Dr. Margolis clarified all of that, she zeroed in on a big theme in your letter that we all felt was very meaningful.

27:22So first of all, there was that comment you made about how we might make fun of you for having symptoms of PTSD, the part that Jordan reacted to. And then there was the detail about being embarrassed by the consequences of the hospitalization, which is perfectly understandable. That must be really tough. I get it. But then there was that backstory about how the more depressed you got, the more highly you performed at work and at school, which created that brutal cycle that led to the hospital. And then there was that psychiatrist who diagnosed you with high-functioning depression, anxiety, and then bipolar disorder.

27:52But as you said, you don't believe the bipolar part. And then finally, there are all these lengths you want to go to get therapy in a way that keeps you anonymous, right? Keeps you protected. What Dr. Margolis picked up on in all of these parts of your story is a great deal of shame. Shame about being traumatized from the hospital, what people like Jordan and me might think about it. Obviously, you can tell we're not here to make fun of you whatsoever. But Dr. Margolis did wonder if maybe other people have ridiculed you for this, or if you have some judgments about this trauma yourself, which, by the way, again, also extremely normal for trauma victims.

28:30Then there's the shame about the after effects of the hospitalization, perhaps some shame around being depressed in the first place, which you coped with by working extremely hard to outrun or counteract that feeling to the point where you were so compromised, you ended up being hospitalized. And finally, I wonder if there's some shame around the diagnoses that you've received. It sounds like you know the depression and anxiety are real, but the bipolar diagnosis just did not sit well with you. And look, maybe that psychiatrist was truly wrong about this. You might know yourself better. But given the other facts in your letter, I do wonder if you heard that diagnosis and went, yeah, no way.

29:10I can't be bipolar. I'm just, I'm going to choose to not believe that because it's too whatever. It's too difficult, too scary, too uncomfortable. So if you want to work on the bigger picture here, this feeling of shame would be a really great place to start because until you start embracing these aspects of yourself, it's going to be really hard to make progress. For sure. Even the way she framed her question, like what would you tell an unnamed person who needs help? It's like the age old cliche of like, uh, so my friend, he wants to do this thing. And it's like, it's my friend though. I don't know.

29:41I have to ask him what he wants. But I know she was being a little cheeky, but I also think she might have been trying to distance herself from her story a little bit. I mean, I understand that. Right. Like this isn't really me. This is somebody else. Right. She's hiding even from herself a little bit. I also find the bipolar diagnosis interesting. I'm just thinking about alongside that story about the other therapist she knew that she said he was a straight up narcissist. And later she found out he had his license revoked for essentially being terrible to his clients. I mean, right. She's had a lot of bad experiences.

30:10That's what I'm curious about. Look, it is totally possible that she has just had terrible luck. A psychiatrist who misdiagnosed her, a horrifying hospital, a narcissistic and unethical therapist. Obviously, there are bad clinicians out there, of course. I mean, this therapist had his frickin' license revoked. I don't think they do that on a whim. I'm not discounting her story there. But it's also kind of an interesting theme, isn't it? That she's been mistreated or let down by so many professionals, you mean? Yeah, people who presumably are trained and motivated to help her get better. So I'm just asking the question.

30:46She gets to decide the answer to this. Has she found these people to be unhelpful or offensive or overwhelming in part because she's resisting them, because she might be struggling to accept what they're telling her or how they want to work with her? And again, the hospital, it sounds nightmarish. I mean, no staff should abuse patients at a hospital. I'm not saying, well, it wasn't as bad as you think. They were just trying to help you. Calm down. Although, also, we don't know exactly what went on there. The trauma is real. But if she was put on an involuntary hold, things might have been pretty severe.

31:17They must have been. So she might have been in quite a delicate state and maybe that played a role there too. You know, I can imagine if you're in that state, it doesn't matter if the people are nice to you at the hospital. It seems like you're in prison, right? With prison guards telling you you can't leave. That would be horrifying in itself. What I'm saying is, I just want to invite her to consider how she's engaging with these sources of support because that obviously determines a lot of her outcomes as well. Right, right. Especially if the shame might make her want to hide even more. Exactly.

31:45So Dr. Margolis's general take here, you obviously need help. You deserve that help. She strongly recommends that anyone in your shoes find a good therapist and give it another shot. In her experience, if you were to address the trauma, the hopelessness, the shame, that could very well decrease the intrusive thoughts and suicidal ideation, potentially dramatically. but you have to be willing to open up about that with the right person. Also, a good therapist could help you process the negative experience you had with your past therapist. It seems weird. It's like therapist inception. I need a therapist to help me with the crap that I went through with my last therapist.

32:21Obviously, that's a real thing. The guy probably was gaslighting her and turned out to be a total prick. As for getting anonymous therapy, Dr. Margolis said she's never heard of that, which actually surprised me. I thought that had to be a thing. The closest thing she said would be calling a hotline, but obviously that is not therapy. That's crisis counseling and you're not gonna do the work you need to do with somebody who's on the phone with you as a volunteer for 20 minutes. And no, you can't do sessions with somebody outside the US, which also surprised me by the way. Outside of a few exceptions, that would be unethical both in the US and probably in the other country to provide therapy across state lines.

32:57Maybe they're certified like lawyers, state by state. There's really no way around this. You need to work with somebody who's a good fit for you, who's safe, who's ready to step into this work with you. So when that person asks you if you have thoughts of harming yourself or others, Dr. Margolis' take, just respond honestly. If what you're dealing with is just ideation, make it clear to your therapist that you don't really have any intention to act on these thoughts. They're just very present and you wanna understand them better. Any good trained therapist will hear that and go, okay, these are just thoughts.

33:29I need to take care of this person and help her work through these thoughts, not just send her away to some horrible place. Also, remember that you get to decide what you share with your therapist. We're not encouraging you to lie or withhold from them. Obviously, a therapist can't help you with something that you don't share. But Dr. Margolis did say that it's totally fair to hold off on sharing super vulnerable information with your therapist until you feel safer with them, until they know you better. You get to choose what you share. So Dr. Margolis wanted us to share with you, your autonomy, your self-determination, those are also very important parts of therapy.

34:03So look, we've talked a lot about the shame piece and I don't want to end the segment sounding like we're somehow shaming you for having shame. Actually, it's the opposite. We want you to understand that it's okay to feel this way. Everyone does to some degree and you have to be willing to dig into this stuff in order to get better. Dr. Margolis got the sense that you don't always feel like you deserve to safely talk about these experiences with somebody, to have somebody hold space for them without compromising you, but you do. And there are people out there who can offer you genuine compassion, support, understanding, friends and professionals.

34:39So we sincerely hope you seek them out and open up. It can't be worse than what you are struggling with right now. There is a way forward here. So I hope you follow it and I hope you find the right person very soon. Sending you a bunch of hugs and we're wishing you all the best and big thanks to Dr. Margolis for her wisdom and advice. Dr. Margolis is seeing patients in Los Angeles and virtually throughout California. Oh, there you have it with the state thing. You can learn more about her and her approach at DrAaronMargolis.com. We'll link to that in the show notes. You can reach us at Friday at JordanHarbinger.com.

35:11Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line. By the way, you guys are killing it with the descriptive subject lines. I love it. It's like three words, like annoying narcissist therapist. It's like perfect. Yes, that makes our job a whole lot easier. So hey, if you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, any dead rodent in your mailbox for that matter, your neighbors are eavesdropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or your abusive parent won't stop stalking and harassing you, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com.

35:39We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. Okay, what's next? Hey guys, my husband and I own a swanky, intimate wine bar. We are proud and protective of it, and it's our livelihood. Our cook for the last few years was a 30-ish guy named Seth. He was a solid, consistent employee and a nice person, albeit quite annoying and not too bright. Seth makes unhealthy life choices. He smokes cigarettes, ingests way too much THC, eats terribly, doesn't do any activities or hobbies outside of work and weed, uses check cashing places for his paycheck, is always sweaty, and looks generally not great.

36:20Gross. All right. He also complains about not being able to afford rent while spending more money on weed and alcohol than on what rent costs. He's single, lives with roommates, has no college debt, no car expenses, no kids, and sometimes his parents give him money. Okay. Okay. So this guy is just a gross mess. Poor dude. But yeah, I can see why this guy got on your nerves. This is not good energy in the workplace, even if he is a decent person. And nothing says swanky wine bar like Seth. Am I right? In the last year, Seth's job performance declined in several ways. Then the schedule at his other job changed, so we were like, oh, darn.

36:58I guess we can't keep you on. Yeah. We were relieved to have a break from his dumb choices and his smellscape of B.O. I've never heard that word before. Oh, that paints a picture. Yeah, really. We were relieved to have a break from his dumb choices and his smellscape of B.O. cigarettes and weed. Gross. It's the B.O. for me, dude. The other stuff, like. Weed, actually, you know, whatever I'm neutral on. Cigarettes and B.O. together with the weed? Mmm, rough. Tasty. That's something I want on my jalapeno poppers or whatever they serve at swanky wine bars. I like that you think the swanky wine bar is serving jalapeno poppers.

37:34I just can't think of another appetizer. It's not Dave and Buster's. What are you talking about? What would it be like an artichoke where you dip it in the aioli and then you get to use your teeth to pull the meat off? Did I ever tell you about the time where I ate the whole thing and the waitress was like, where's the rest of the artichoke? Let's talk about it. I ordered an artichoke appetizer at not a swanky wine bar, but something probably very similar to it. I was waiting for like Jen to show up or something like our friends. I remember being there alone. I'm like, I'll have this artichoke.

38:01It's a baked artichoke. You dip it in the aioli and you use your teeth to scrape the meat off the leaf. Yes, you are correctly describing how to eat an artichoke. Yeah, but I didn't know that. Okay. So I just was like chewing the leaf and I was like, this is so gross and like fibrous. And the waitress is like, how is it? And I was eating it. I was like, I don't know. It might be a little bit undercooked, but I'm not going to complain. like whatever my wife is almost on the way here i've eaten like half this thing already i'm just not gonna say anything and then the waitress came back and was like wow what what where's the rest and she's like how was it like this quizzical look and i was like honestly it was a little bit rough she's like did you eat the whole thing and i was like yeah i ate all the leaves and they were like some of them were a little burned and she started like giggling and she's like you're really only supposed to eat the edge oh my god basically i ate something that even an animal that eats plants like artichokes would be like, no thanks.

38:55And I chewed the whole thing. You're like an alien who came to Earth and doesn't know how to eat it. It's like a Dan Aykroyd sketch where I'm just chewing on the banana without peeling it. It was so gross. That explains so much about that night we went to dinner at, where was that? South Beverly Grill. And we ordered the artichoke. You kept checking in with me. You're like, this is how you do it, right? I'm like, yeah, you're doing great, bud. Yeah. Keep focusing on the meat and ignore the leaves and you'll be okay. Yeah, and you're probably like, why is he so scared of artichoke leaves? because there's probably still some digesting in my gut somewhere, even though it's been five years.

39:30I think they probably serve artichoke at this place, not so much the jalapeno poppers, but whatever they're serving, you don't want Seth's smellscape mixing in with those. No, chewing the burned and fibrous leaves of the artichoke is hard enough without BO cigarettes and weed smell on the thing itself. Okay, continue. The day after his last shift, Seth came in to have a beer, even though he doesn't live very close and doesn't have a car. We were like, okay, interesting choice, but whatever. Then he came in the day after that, and he used the employee entrance both times. So we had to tell him he can't do that anymore.

40:06He did a few more employee privilege type things, so we again had to tell him, dude, you don't work here anymore. After several months, Seth still comes in six days a week. He's a pretty big guy, and he hunkers down at the bar and takes up two stools with all of his accoutrements. Giant walking stick, huge backpack that has a hundred pouches and straps, and his big floppy hat. Wow, that really paints a picture that I can also smell, doesn't it? Like I said, I can just see and smell this guy. There's a dude just lumping down with his crap. It's the walking stick and the huge backpack with a hundred pouches for me.

40:43I don't know about you. I can't explain why, but there's something about those two accessories next to each other that's just inherently annoying. Totally. Like, what are you, an adventurer from the National Geographical Society in the 1800s? Like, what you need all them pouches for, bro? Yeah, exploring Machu Picchu. What you got in that bag? The whole getup screams, I'm just a little bit insane. But that's probably not the backpack's fault. It's who's carrying the backpack. Right. But with the floppy hat and everything, it's like Paddington Bear plus Cheech and Chong crossed with Pigpen from the Peanuts vibes.

41:15Oh, wow. Yep. Nailed it. How did you put all of those together? Yeah, Paddington Bear has that big floppy hat. That's all I remember. He's got that weird floppy hat. Amazing. So the letter goes on. He interrupts conversations we're having with other customers or each other and is incredibly unselfaware. A few customers have made comments or pulled yikes type faces when they see him. Oh, no. Also, he still sends me links to Reddit posts all the time. Yeah, okay, I do that. Is that really annoying? Sending Reddit links? Not at a Seth frequency. I think it's different. That just completed the picture.

41:49I mean, I love me some Reddit, as you all know, but I totally know this guy. This is a sad, strange, pothead internet guy who's just probably profoundly lonely. Well, that's why he's coming into the bar six days a week, right? Even though he doesn't live close by and he doesn't have a car. So these people are probably the closest thing he has to friends, and he just does not want to go home. Yeah, good point. It's really sad. It makes things even harder for our friend here, but we'll come back to that. I just received a letter from the county collections department that we have to garnish his wages due to unpaid bills.

42:19They don't know that he doesn't work for us anymore. How do we tell him to not come in every day? Signed, a pissed off publican trying to decide whether to let this dude settle up again. Publican? Publican. What's that? Like a pub owner. Oh. I was like, is that short for Republican? I don't remember her bringing up politics. Yeah, okay, now that makes sense now. Well, everything about this story confirms that you dodged a huge bullet when this guy left. This is not someone you want working for you if you can help it. And I want to be compassionate because Seth is obviously not good at life. He probably hasn't gotten the feedback he needs to understand how he comes across to other people.

42:59I mean, just look at how hard it is for you to tell him the truth. People have probably treated him this way his whole life because it's so awkward to tell somebody that they are this profoundly annoying and that they're this inept. And look where it's gotten him. kind of makes you wonder whether tiptoeing around somebody's issues is really the best way to serve them, right? There's some connection to the sister in question one here. I think it's interesting. For sure. But also, it's not her responsibility to fix a 30-something-year-old man who used to work at her bar. So I get it. Sure. But here's the thing.

43:31This is your business. It's your livelihood. The moment a patron or an employee starts to compromise that business, then this does become your responsibility because it's not about giving them notes or whatever. It's about protecting this amazing establishment you've worked so hard on and not letting a big mouth blundering man child with weird taste in fashion accessories hurt your ability to make a good living. It's already hard enough to run a restaurant for God's sake. I mean, this guy's taking up an extra seat at your bar, which is literally costing you money. He's interrupting your conversations.

44:06Customers are literally telling you this guy's a nuisance and making those yikes faces. And I can picture that face exactly right. The eyebrows raised in the hole like, whoa, who is this guy? Do you know how bad you have to be for people to make that face to another person that they don't know? They're just like, wow, I know you agree with me that this guy, what is this guy doing here? This is a no brainer for me that he needs to go, or at least he needs to be put on notice. So the next time he comes in, or maybe you call him at the apartment he shares with four other people, even though he doesn't have money for rent because he's ordering four gin and tonics at your bar six nights a week, I would pull him aside and I would say, and this is going to be hard, but look, Seth, you were a good employee while you were here.

44:46You were solid. You were consistent. You were nice. I'm glad you were part of our team. But now that you're a patron, you're not an employee, things are different. And I'm really sorry to say this to you. I really don't mean to hurt your feelings, but it's become very obvious that you're rubbing some of the other patrons the wrong way. I know you don't mean to, but it's hurting our business and it needs to stop. And you can give him a few examples. If it would help, something tells me he might need some examples to understand what you are even talking about because self-awareness, not exactly Seth's strong suit here.

45:18Then you either ban him from the bar or you give him a chance to act right. And that's totally up to you. Depends how nice you are. If this were my swanky wine bar, I'd probably tell this guy to kick rocks. I just, I can't deal with people like this. I'm just not a floppy hat and backpack and BO cigarettes and weed kind of guy. Yeah. More of a walking stick guy. You get one of those accessories. One. You don't get all three. And also you get one smell. Okay. Maximum. Ideally zero smells. Also 17 side pouches per pack maximum. Yep. I think we all are on that same page, right? Yeah. 17. I think that's a good rule.

45:55That's a very fair principle. But if you want to be nice and give him a chance, you can. But if he pulls any of this stuff again, I don't know what other employee privilege stuff is, but he probably goes behind the bar to get himself another beer or whatever. Like, I'll open it myself and then I'll just write it on the thing. No. If he does that again, you got to ban him. I mean, look, if he did this stuff as a patron and you didn't have this history with him, you would obviously say something right away, right? So this shouldn't be any different, in my opinion. Also, people like this tend to just attract more and more problems.

46:24I mean, just look at the notice you got to garnish his wages. He doesn't even work there anymore, and he's still causing you headaches. He might say the wrong thing to the wrong person one night. Suddenly you're going to be dealing with the cops because a fight breaks out, or somebody he owes money to is going to follow him into the bar, and suddenly you'll have a scene on your hands, or he'll barge through the kitchen doors to grab himself a spork, or whatever you guys use at your swanky wine bar. No doubt it's sporks, frankly. I know that much about swanky wine bars. No sporks. Such an image of him grabbing a spark.

46:54I don't know why, but he'll do that. But you know, he's going to burst into the kitchen and he'll forget to say like, corner, like those people in the bear over and over again. Somebody's going to spill 200 bucks worth of drinks or whatever. You just don't want this frequency in your establishment. Is that like a yoga energy vibe word? Frequency? Do you not agree that Seth has a frequency? Well, he's got an odor. I don't know about frequency. He's also a stoner. There's not going to be any bar fights. Frankly, I understand the annoyance. He doesn't work there. He's still causing headaches. we had a guy work in sales for something years ago.

47:25He closed one deal where they bought one ad spot after having like three meetings where he's like, let's meet for sushi. I'm gonna drive all the way there. And I'm like, all right. And then to this day, I still get paid, Tom at jordanharbinger.com. And it's like a newsletter for a bike company. And I'm like, this idiot came in here, subscribed to 500 different email lists using his work address that he had for like three weeks. And I'm still unsubscribing from these fricking emails. The dude made me like a few hundred dollars in an ad spot that was supposed to be a test that like never contacted the company and then just moved to Austin and was like, yeah, I'm trying to do this work remotely thing and like never did any other work and never answered any calls and never set up anything.

48:11These kinds of people, yes, they can cause you headaches even when they're gone. They just lack awareness. Pigpen from the Peanuts, He doesn't know that there's a cloud around him. That's the whole thing, right? He's just a dirty guy. The cloud follows him. And this cloud is following Seth into your stinking wine bar. So I feel bad for Seth. I'm afraid he's got to go. He also needs to realize how he comes across for his own benefit. Time to step up as a business owner and protect your customers and your livelihood. Good luck. You know what Seth would probably love to store in one of those weird pockets on his backpack?

48:44The amazing products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all in one searchable page, jordanharbinger.com slash deals. You can also ask the AI chatbot on the website as well, or email me, jordan at jordanharbinger.com. If you're super lazy, I'll dig that dang code up for you. That's how important it is that you use those codes.

49:13Thank you for supporting those who support the show. It really does keep things going and makes it possible to continue creating these episodes week after week. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Next up. Hey guys, I have a coworker and friend who's an incel. He's looking for a relationship, but he keeps getting catfished, ghosted, and friendzoned. His heart is in the right place, but he's a loud talker, has a speech impediment, rhodicism specifically, which is difficulty pronouncing your R's, is overweight, isn't really attractive, but isn't hideous either. but he still has confidence. I try to mentor him but he doesn't seem to take my advice.

49:51He's becoming obsessed with the idea of a relationship to the point that he feels he has to tell everybody his personal business. I don't know what to do anymore. What would you do to help someone like this? Signed, Coughing Up the Red Pill. Oh, sounds like they have another Seth on their hands. Yeah, I'm getting strong Seth vibes here. Although Seth seems like a nice guy, this guy might be worse than Seth because in a way, this dude's got no swag. Seth at least had the backpack and the walking stick and the weird hat. And you know that appeals to some demographic that's like, oh, this guy, he walks along highways.

50:23I like that. Right. At least there's some mystique there, right? There's an intrigue. Yeah. He's a character. He's probably got all these crazy stories about times he's had to sleep in abandoned houses or something like that. And this guy, I don't know what his deal is. By the way, I don't know if everybody knows what incel is. Incel means involuntary celibate, which means these are guys that want relationships with women, but they can't make it happen because they're like low status, overweight, not good looking, no social skills. And it's not just that they're kind of sad with that. They're angry about that.

50:57That's like the trademark of the incel community is it's like women only want guys with money and steroid muscles because they're all terrible people, right? It's a whole thing. I actually have loads of thoughts on incels because I watched this movement basically pop up from the inside. A lot of people may not know this. I was sort of on the forefront of the dating coaching thing in 2006. And so there were all these like pickup artists and dating coaches. And we were trying to be the white hat to the black hat bad guys. And then the incel movement was like guys who tried to do the pickup artist thing, but realized like the dating skills thing won't work for me because I'm hopeless.

51:38And that means that women are terrible. Let's just be really terrible and negative. And they had these message boards. And one of the guys famously murdered a bunch of people because he thought that they were getting the women he was supposed to have. And then other sort of rage incidents. So I have loads of thoughts on this. I watched the movement get created and pop up over the span of a decade or so back in those days. So I got a really intimate peek at the whole movement. And the thing is, a lot of these guys are decent people, right? I met guys that would be incels before the anger thing takes root.

52:09And they really struggle socially. They feel disempowered. They feel unwanted. It's outside of their control. And it leads them to weird ideas like this whole incel thing. It used to be that they were just like, yeah, I don't know what to do. I just don't think about it anymore. I just play video games. They kind of gave up. The incel thing was like, don't give up. Just get mad about the women who are not putting out which you deserve. You're a king. and that was like a better thought that I'm just this pathetic guy who can't get a woman. It was like, oh, it's a conspiracy to keep me down. That's the scary thing about the incel movement.

52:45Right, but you know what I find so strange about the incel movement is that guys like this are explicitly looking for a relationship, right? He really wants a girlfriend, but he's also an incel? That's one of the many contradictions of incel ideology, right? I want women, but I also hate them and they're terrible and they're gross. Women are superficial and manipulative, but I really want one to be my girlfriend. but she'll be different than all those other sluts, right? I mean, it's really, you'll see guys write messages like that. It's called the Madonna whore complex. Women are either like my mother and sister who are perfect and angelic and amazing or they're just complete whores that don't even deserve to be spit on by a king like me.

53:23And it's like, okay, they're in a bind and it just further entrenches them in this really troubling mindset, which leads to mental health issues or is the cause of them or intertwined with them. It's a whole thing. And so the worse the results, like with this guy, he's getting ghosted. He's getting friend zoned. He's getting catfished. I'm a little confused about the catfish part. That might be a different problem. But the worse the results, the more it seems to make them believe that women really are the problem. Right. OK, so the catfish thing, I won't go off on too much of a tangent. The reason this happens to a lot of these guys is they are so desperate.

53:53There's this whole narrative like, oh, Western women, they think they're equal to men. LOL. well, I'm going to go after a woman who lives in a country like Ukraine or Colombia where they know their place, right? That's the incel narrative. So then they go on these dating sites, which are just like 1000 % scammy Russian mob dudes who are chatting and pretending to be the women in the pictures who are paid models or some other variation of that scam, right? A woman who's in Colombia who wants to be your online girlfriend, but she's chatting with 20 dudes. And the first guy who's like, move up to Massachusetts with me in my home.

54:26she's like, I'm in and the other guys get cut off because that's the goal. She's just fishing. So that happens a lot because desperation makes you overlook things like, well, yeah, it's weird. I have to pay$1.99 per minute to chat online with my girlfriend, but the website translates the messages from Ukrainian into English. So that's why we use it. It's like, no, you're being scammed by an organization. So it happens a lot. It's like being in a, in any other sort of cult or having critical thinking faculties be shut down or shut off by the desperation. So that's the catfishing thing. Go ahead.

54:56Ghosted and friend zone, that sort of speaks for itself, right? Oh, maybe I don't want to date a guy who like has all these issues now that I've gotten to know him for more than five minutes. But you know what else I think is going on? And I don't want to generalize too much here because look, all sorts of people can fall into this mindset. But in my experience, a lot of the guys who get kind of in celly, they often struggle with relating to people, reading social cues like this guy. So he might also be falling for a lot of those catfishing scams at a higher rate because he doesn't understand people's intentions.

55:22That's true. I've also noticed that, and I'm going to be careful with this. There's a certain percentage of incel community guys that are on the autism spectrum, which is so annoying for other autistic people because they're like, look, I'm autistic and I'm not a total asshole who hates women and posts horrible like murder fantasies about them online. So I actually feel bad because it's kind of like, why are you judging us by these guys? I'm autistic and I work at Apple as an engineer. Why are you looking at me like I'm one of them? But that stuff can contribute to that. And a lot of it's undiagnosed.

55:52I remember meeting some of these guys and being like, oh, are you on the autism spectrum? And they'd be like, no. And I'm like, looking at the other coaches like, oh God, does he not know? Cause it's really clear cut that there's something here to the point where with certain autism is a spectrum, as you know, but like a lot of times they'll have trouble recognizing faces. I remember one guy just didn't remember me the next day and the next day. And he's like, oh, I recognize your voice. And I'm Like I spent an hour with you yesterday. And it was almost like, it was like a strange disability. I was like, do you have face blindness?

56:22Like what is happening here? So there's a lot of that stuff. And it's undiagnosed because their parents were like, there's nothing wrong with my son. So they never get the help they need. And they grow up in this thing. And it all contributes to this. But look, this guy is striking out over and over. He's scream talking like I'm doing right now to everyone in the office about his dating life. He doesn't sound self-aware. He doesn't realize how he's coming across. So you can imagine this guy on a date with a woman or even a text exchange, just like, I'm talking to an alien right now. So it's an interesting question, how to help somebody like this.

56:54And man, it's delicate because you want to help him, which is really nice of you, by the way. Most people would not want to. I found it hard to help a lot of these guys as a coach, and I was getting paid handsomely for doing it. But the things that he needs help with, man, they are so charged. Right. Like, how do you tell somebody you work with, you know, hey, bud, when you talk, you kind of scream, you got to lower your voice. Also, you need to go to a speech therapist and hit the gym. I mean, it's uncomfortable. Also, it's hard to know how much of this he can actually control. It's probably a lot more than he thinks or even realizes is possible in terms of what he can control.

57:29But you're right. Giving someone notes like this when they're not coming to you going, hey, I'm struggling. I can't figure out why. Can you help me? They're just like, oh, yeah, women, this woman. I had a lot of clients like that back in the day. It's hard. Oh, women, this women that they're all shallow. I'm like, you are literally 200 pounds overweight and you have your butt crack hanging out and you are very negative about everything. And you're like, it's not the women, man. You need to deserve what you want. And those guys were asking me for help. Right. Imagine somebody who thinks like it's not me.

58:00It can't be me. So my take is, I think you need to make sure that he's open and ready to hear this feedback before you give it to him. And the way I would do that is the next time he complains to you about his dating life, maybe you say some version of, listen, man, I know how badly you want to find a girlfriend. You deserve that. And I'd love to help you make it happen. I also noticed that it's been a little hard for you. You're not getting the results you want. And when that happens, I think it's a good opportunity to take a step back and figure out what might be going on. See if you need to change your approach a little.

58:31Have you thought about that at all? Kind of put it out there and see if he picks up on the subtext, which he might not. And if he's like, these women are all the same. They just want to Chad to take them out to dinner. They can't handle a confident man who isn't six foot five and benches 350 pounds or whatever these shallow hoes. Then you'll know he's not ready to hear it yet. But if he's like, okay, what do you mean? You think I'm doing something wrong? That's a good sign. That's an ideal sign. Cause then you could say, yeah, sure. We all have stuff to work on when we're dating. Tell me what your interactions have been like, where you seem to be hitting a wall.

59:03And then you can slowly work up to sharing a couple observations with him, which is not your job, by the way. But obviously you're gonna have to be very gentle with him so he doesn't get too freaked out or resist you too much. If this were me, I would start with the less precarious habits, the loud talking, the oversharing, because those are concrete. They're easier to work on. And then if he seems receptive and makes some progress, you could work up to the other stuff. Like with a guy who was 200 pounds overweight and his butt crack was hanging out all the time, I was like, we need to get you some pants that fit in a belt because you're a built dude.

59:36But these jeans, they're just not cooperating. I basically blamed the pants. And I was like, we need to get you some pants. And so we got him pants that fit in the belt. We're like, now your ass crack doesn't hang out. And he's like, oh, thank God. That was so annoying. And I'm like, yeah, it was. We had to like freaking Febreze every seat you sat on because it was an ass print on it at the end of the day. And it was disgusting. People notice this stuff. Also, those are things that this guy needs to work on aside from the dating stuff, just as a professional. and that's more appropriate for our friend here to give him advice about because it relates to the office that they share and it might also help him take that feedback in at first.

1:00:08Right, it might be easier for him to hear some of this as a professional first, like, oh, in meetings I speak too loudly, all right. Maybe I should do that in my social interaction. Then he can connect the dots to his dating life later or work on it in the office, see some good results and then be more receptive to how he can apply it to other parts of his life. The speech impediment, being overweight, Those are harder to address, but they're by no means impossible. I have so much compassion for anybody with a speech impediment or any kind of sort of difference, really. That's not his fault, but there are great speech therapists out there.

1:00:42There are resources for this. This is totally something he can work on. My mom was a speech therapist, so I have a lot of sympathy for kids who grow up with that. I mean, it's just relentless bullying, and it's over such BS. Who gives a crap, right? As an adult, you're like, whatever. To be clear, I don't think this guy is failing just because he can't pronounce his R's very well, this probably just wouldn't be a big issue if he were a healthy, high-functioning guy. But it's just one more obstacle in the bundle of obstacles that this guy is not only creating for himself, but already has in Bill.

1:01:13And it might be nice to encourage him to seek out some coaching. Look, I can refer coaches as well. I know a couple guys who are really good at this, but somebody has to be ready for that, right? Because your ego, you really have to set it aside and be like, I'm hiring a social coach. That is not easy. It takes years for some people to realize this. And usually the worse off a person is, the more they're like, I don't have anything to learn from one of those guys. I can't stress how easy it was to sell a group of green berets, my social and dating coaching back in the day, because they're like, we love training.

1:01:43We would love to do this. And these guys come in and they're like jacked dudes with six packs who've been all over the world and speak three languages and are like in prime shape. And then some dude, the dude who's 200 pounds overweight with the jeans that don't fit in his ass crack hanging out takes like three years of cajoling because he's like, well, I don't really need that. And the ego is a hell of a drug and a hell of a mask. And it's something that most people don't want to admit that they need. So he really needs to lead here. He might have to struggle for a while before he's ready to face some of this stuff.

1:02:15So be kind, be compassionate, be patient. This dude has a lot to work through. It's really, by the way, super generous of you to want to sort of mentor him, for lack of a better word here. You're a really good colleague. But he's on his own journey here, and he's not going to change until he's ready to change. Just like Seth, just like the sister from question one, bit of a theme on today's episode. So good luck with it. Keep us posted. All right, next up. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I had to share with you how moved I was to hear Jace's story on your show a few weeks back. Okay, so for anyone who didn't hear that episode, our audio engineer, Jace, shared this absolutely amazing story on the show recently about this period in his life.

1:02:54sometime back. He went through a really brutal breakup. He was dealing with epilepsy. And then he got to such a low point that he actually contemplated committing suicide. And then he decided, no, I have to go work on myself. I got to get to therapy. I got to have new experiences. And he completely turned his life around, which eventually led to him meeting his wife and working with Jordan and then with us. And so it was just a really wonderful story. And that was a few weeks back. Yeah, an amazing story. I always love this stuff. I've never heard. I've known you guys for over a decade. And it's like, oh, I actually had no idea about any of that.

1:03:26So I'm actually glad he shared that with everyone, including me. That was episode 881, by the way, if you want to check it out. So the letter goes on. I found it so incredible that he had the bravery to share such a personal story when it would have been far easier to share the story anonymously or not at all. Since my early 20s, I've been carrying around a secret, something that none of my friends whom I've known for decades knew about me. Without going into detail, this secret sent me spiraling into so much shame and made me check myself mid-conversation whenever I was on the verge of saying too much.

1:04:00The healthy thing to do would have been to seek out therapy, but I wasn't ready to share my story even with a complete stranger who's trained to help. It was only last year that I finally spoke to a therapist who helped me work through what I was feeling. Talking about it then felt so much more raw than I expected. Looking back, I now realize that carrying the secret around all the time has had the unintended consequence of turning me into a Don Draper type character, totally guarded and living in constant fear of being found out, judged, or pitied, and just how isolating that's been. So last week, I finally told one of my friends all about what happened.

1:04:36Straight away, it felt like a huge weight had been lifted from my shoulders, And I could feel the relief from her, too. She told me how she had been worried about me and could tell that there was something not quite right, but had never known how to bring it up. She wished that I'd felt comfortable enough to tell her sooner so that she could have provided some support. It's a small step, but I don't think I would have taken it had it not been for Jace's story. It made me realize that awful events don't have to define you, that owning your story can be so much more powerful. I thought about how sad it would be to live a life where my closest friends never get to see my true self, because I'm so busy putting up barriers and trying to hide my real feelings.

1:05:13For me, Feedback Friday has been a place where your listeners are willing to share their stories and show their vulnerability. I imagine that a lot of those listeners are in my position, and the show family is a community where people can just be real with one another. The anonymity provides that extra security that makes people feel comfortable showing who they truly are, which I think answers your recent question about why Feedback Friday is so popular. Anyway, I just wanted to say how much I appreciate being part of the Feedback Friday community and also share my huge respect and appreciation for Jace's courage, which has helped me to find some courage of my own.

1:05:47Signed, changing my frame on this unclaimed shame. Wow. Wow. Yeah. What a letter, huh? Yeah. I'm, first of all, just really touched by this one. I know Jace was too, and it's a really special story that you've shared with us. So thank you so much for reaching out. It does mean a lot. I love hearing stuff like this. these emails always seem to come too on a day where I'm like I'm annoyed by all these things and this is starting to feel like a job and then someone's like hey just wanted to take five minutes and tell you how the show changed my life and I'm like wow that's okay now I really feel good about what I'm doing right now I honestly don't know if I have a ton to add here I think you said it all way better than I could but everything you shared it kind of captures what Gabe and I love so much about doing this show we talk a decent amount about shame on feedback Friday we talked about it a lot today, especially with the woman from question two, even Seth slash incel Seth.

1:06:36Now that I think about it, all the letters we took today actually deal in some way with shame. And we do that because it's such a universal feeling and it's a very rich one and it can be incredibly hard to talk about. But the beauty of shame, or I should say the beauty of acknowledging shame, is that, well, first of all, it's often a huge relief in the short term. Yeah, it can be really scary and unpleasant, of course, but long term, it's usually very comforting and healing to acknowledge this. And also, opening up about shame is incredibly bonding. The things we're ashamed of, whether they're big things or small things, they're tender, they're very humanizing.

1:07:13So when you let someone in on something like this, it's an act of great vulnerability. And it has a way of bringing you closer to other people, inviting them to become closer to you. and that is really the gift of opening up about all this difficult stuff. And I find it so interesting that your friend was like, yeah, I knew something was wrong, but I didn't know how to ask. And then she didn't make you feel bad about it. She just said that she wished you could have told her sooner so that she could have been there for you. That must've felt good to say the least. What a great friend, huh? Seriously, keep that one close.

1:07:44I bet that was a really special conversation. When Jay said that we could share his story on the show, Jordan, I was like, are you sure? You want to talk about this? And he was like, absolutely. I'm an open book. It's all good. And obviously, Jace has come a very long way. He's done a ton of work, but I would be nervous to talk about an experience like that myself. And that's just one of the many things I love about Jace. But it's also what I love about these stories. They have a way of giving us permission to do the same. Permission and sometimes inspiration, like in this case. I am so sorry you went through whatever you went through.

1:08:12It sounds very intense. But the fact that you decided to talk about it with a therapist and then with this friend, I think that is incredible. And to me, it's just a great reminder that owning our stories, I know it's like kind of cheesy and that phrase sounds a little, I don't know, it's a little trite, but really owning our stories is a real thing and it is very powerful. When she said that she thought about how sad it would be to live a life where her closest friends never got to see her true self because she was so busy hiding, not going to lie, tears starting to form in the corner of the eye, because that is such a profound thing to realize and for her to have the courage to take the leap and change that dynamic completely.

1:08:46I'm just really proud of her for doing that. I know that that's not easy. Hiding is easier in the short term. Jordan, have I ever told you my favorite quote by this guy, D.W. Winnicott? Winnicott? No, I don't think so. But candidly, this is exactly the type of thing that somebody could tell me that would go in one ear and immediately out the other. Like, oh, your favorite quote by somebody I've never heard of? Do tell. Fair enough. Well, he was a psychologist. He was a really great psychologist and a writer. And he said this thing that I'm obsessed with. He said, it's a joy to be hidden and a disaster not to be found.

1:09:17it's a joy to be hidden and a disaster not to be found. I mean, look, I got to hand it to him. That's pretty good. So there's a part of us that loves hiding, that loves being, you know, unknown and unknowable. And then there's another part of us that desperately wants to be known by other people, needs to be known by other people. And to never get to have that experience because you're hiding or because you're ashamed is kind of a tragedy. I mean, it's really one of the big reasons we're here, right? Yeah, that's exactly what she's describing, right? The secrecy keeps you safe, but then you pay the Don Draper of Mad Men price.

1:09:51I didn't even finish that show, but I know he was hiding some dark secret, right? I left off when his brother came and he was like, take this money and never talk to me again. And the guy like, yeah, I don't want to ruin it. Well, I didn't even finish it. I can't ruin it. And the guy kills himself. And then I was like, this show is too slow for me. And that was probably midway through the scene. But anyway, if you open up about it with the right person, it's raw, it's scary, it's unpleasant, but then you're just not living with a secret anymore and you're not as defended. And then you get to find out how much people are there for you.

1:10:17So yeah, I love that quote. That's awesome. So look, thank you so much for sharing your story with us. You sound like a really awesome person, and I'm so glad our show could play a part in you opening up more and processing this experience. I'm sure a lot of people are taking in what you just shared with us. And I hope the woman from question two is still listening because I think she'd really benefit from this kind of courage, this honesty, opening up about her difficult experiences the way you did. Who knows? Maybe you'll inspire her the way Jace inspired you. And again, big thanks to Jace and everyone who listens and writes in every week.

1:10:49This letter is really about all of you guys, this amazing show family who we love and we're super grateful for. You guys really are the best. I'm going to take this into my weekend and open up to Gabe later about how dumb he makes me feel when he uses obscure words in foreign languages and quotes psychologists off the top of his head. I'm in a pit of shame and it's your fault, Gabriel. That's it. So I hope you all enjoyed that. Don't forget Check out the episodes this week from Shane Parrish on clear thinking and decision making and our out of the loop on the Sudan crisis with Gassim Mohammed, if you haven't done so yet.

1:11:19The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust. I'm talking more about that in our six-minute networking course. Yes, I know you don't work. You're retired. You have all the networking you could possibly have. Fine, but there's a happiness dividend to doing this right. These are the same systems I teach to large corporations, military and intelligence services. so even though you're already so good at networking, I think you can get something from this. JordanHarbinger.com slash course is where you can find it and it's free, it takes a few minutes.

1:11:48A lot of the people that you hear on the show subscribe and contribute to the course. Dig the well before you get thirsty, folks. Build relationships before you need them. JordanHarbinger.com slash course. Newsletter at JordanHarbinger.com slash news. We break up past episodes and spill the guts onto the table and write about it. A lot of people are really loving that. JordanHarbinger.com slash news. Show notes and transcripts at jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals or ask the AI chat bot. I'm at jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram.

1:12:20You can also connect with me on LinkedIn and Gabe's on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Dr. Margolis' input is general psychological information based on research and clinical experience. It's intended to be general and informational in nature. It does not represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those acquiring for guidance.

1:12:53Not that anybody in their right mind would necessarily come to that conclusion, but hey, remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love, and if you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. Here's what you should check out next on the Jordan Harbinger Show. Tell me about the neighborhood where you grew up. South Central, Los Angeles. Yeah. Well, most people play the game Grand Theft Auto.

1:13:24Yeah. So I'm sitting on the porch and I don't know what I'm going to do. And my partner calls me and he's like, man, I got the new thing. It was cocaine. Cocaine was really, really expensive then. Yeah. You know, a gram of cocaine back then was like$375. Wow. So it was dozens of times more expensive back then than it is now. Like 300 times. Wow. And it's also the most expensive thing that you can fit in your hand. It costs that much money, probably. Maybe a watch. Yeah, absolutely. At that time, they say cocaine was more expensive than gold. How much money are we talking about here? I probably was making about$55 ,000 off of a kilo.

1:13:58I think you made up around a billion dollars in the 80s in L.A. That's what I heard of a documentary. For two years, I made like$600 million. Not profit for me, but money that went through my hands. Before I started making a million every day, we was making$500 every day. Before we was making$500, we made$400. Before we was making$400, we made$200. Before we was making$200, we made$100. So you scaled up to a million dollars a day. Yeah, yeah. I had days that I went through$3 million in one day. How are you even counting that much money? Oh, you have money counters. Yeah. And you have a team of girls that sit there and they count money all day.

1:14:33You know, you have a house and this house would have like a slot in the door and people would just come in and drop duffel bags through the door. So I wanted to know what was the difference between real business and the cocaine business. And what did you find? There's none. For more of Freeway Rick's story as one of the biggest drug dealers of all time, including his ties to the CIA, check out episode 121 of the Jordan Harbinger show.