910: 90% of the Time, Parents Aren't Toxic Every Time | Feedback Friday

23:31Unless the threat of notifying the authorities freaks them out so much they suddenly do a 180, but I just, come on, man. I guess it's a remote possibility. I'm not banking on it. Permanent change doesn't happen because they're like, oh yeah, the police exist. Oops, maybe I better become a normal person now. No. For what it's worth, Dr. Margolis said if you were one of her clients, she would be on the phone with CPS yesterday, working on getting you out of that house now. That's how serious this is. And looking further down the road, Dr. Margolis would strongly encourage you to get into therapy ASAP.

24:02You need a parent's permission when you're under 18, but you could go sooner if somebody else ever became your legal guardian. And in her view, there's some very deep stuff for you and your sister to address. And the sooner you begin that work, the better. I know how painful and terrifying this all must be. And my heart really does go out to you guys. But you might need to be very strong and take a leap of faith here. Because from where I am sitting right now, what is happening in your house is absolutely tragic. It's wrong, it's unsustainable, and it's dangerous. I'm sorry to say this, but your parents don't deserve to have children if they're gonna treat them like this.

24:40Enough damage has been done. I don't want there to be any more. So please find the support that you need. You and your sister deserve to feel safe. You deserve to feel protected. You deserve to have people be there for you. And Gabe and I will do whatever we can to help you guys from a distance. Whatever you need, we're here. We're sending you both a big hug and all of our love and confidence. Big thank you to Dr. Margolis for her wisdom and advice. Dr. Margolis is seeing patients in Los Angeles and virtually throughout California. You can learn more about her and her approach at DrAaronMargolis.com.

25:10We'll link to that in the show notes. You know what? I worry, Gabriel, this isn't science, okay? I don't have any evidence for this. What I'm worried about is if you're willing to hurt your kid in a certain way, what keeps that from escalating, right? I mean, look, I get it. Just because you spank your kid doesn't mean you're going to like break their wrist, right? I understand that. But for some reason, when you start doing weird stuff, like making them kneel on the ground until their knees are swollen. That's not, okay, I'm spanking my kid, and even though the science shows that doesn't work, but now they understand, and it hurts me as much as it hurts you.

25:44This is like, I'm hurting you physically, and I feel like it could get worse. Where is it going to go? Where is it going to go? And also, it's not like, oh yeah, my dad does this weird thing where he makes us kneel. We've been doing it since we were little. It's a little bit abusive, whatever we're used to. This is like a new thing. He's just making up new stuff to hurt them. So where does that end? We haven't talked a lot about her parents and what they must have been through, but I have to imagine that her parents have had their own very rough histories. I don't think you abuse your children like this unless you have been horribly treated or have some very confused ideas about how to raise children.

26:18So they have their own issues. But what we haven't even touched on in this letter, outside of the textbook abuse, is this stuff about her mom wishing she could leave the family and then putting on a smile when she walks in the front door and just keeping up appearances. I mean, even if there weren't any of this really horrible stuff going on, just that would be a lot for a child to contend with. Like having a mother who's miserable but doesn't know how to express it and takes it out on the children and shares inappropriate. I mean, there's just so much happening here. It breaks my heart. I mean, they have a lot to heal, basically.

26:50Look, I know you rewrite these, but I'm assuming this letter wasn't some disaster that was barely legible. These are smart women. I actually had to edit this one very little. She wrote very vividly and concisely about what is happening here. So this is basically her letter. Yeah, look, maybe we're getting fooled by Chet GPT, but let's assume we're not. And these are smart young women who can be functional and live great lives and have kids of their own that they don't mistreat if that's what they want. Not only is it miserable and they don't deserve it, I feel this is dangerous. If these kids were my neighbors, I would call the police.

27:25I would keep them in my house and I'd be like if your dad comes over there's no way he's not getting these kids back right he's gonna have to go through me and I'm gonna wait till the cops come and then I'm gonna move because I live next to a psycho whose kids I just took it's one of those things like I just feel very scared for these kids right now this is very disturbing this letter aside from children you know what else those parents don't deserve the amazing deals on the products and services that support this show we'll be right back this episode is sponsored in part by 1-800-CONTACTS. You know that last pair of contacts panic?

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30:22Then promote it to use LinkedIn Jobs' new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find top candidates. That's linkedin.com slash harbinger to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. Beck, thank you so much for listening and supporting the show. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. You can also search for any sponsor using the AI chatbot on the website. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next? Hello, Jordan and Gabe. I've been with my boyfriend for almost two years, and we live together.

30:57Issues have started to pop up in different parts of our relationship, and I feel like I'm able to deal with them. The one thing I can't deal with is the hints my boyfriend keeps dropping about having an open relationship or bringing another woman into our bed. I know that my libido has never been as high as any of my partners. I'm not a sexual person, and I consider myself a prude, which might be an issue. All of this makes me feel like I'm not enough for my boyfriend. I was married for 10 years before, and my husband cheated on me, so the thought of my boyfriend having sex with someone else makes me sick.

31:32Even if I agreed to it, I would only do it to make him happy, and I would be dying inside. I also believe strongly that if he truly loves me, like he says he does, I should be enough. He strongly believes that human beings were not made to be monogamous, but open relationships, bringing other people into our bed, or cheating, completely go against my values. How do I deal with these hints? And how do I stop feeling like I'm not good enough for my boyfriend? Signed, feeling blah and saying nah to these menage a trois. I was wondering how you were going to rhyme that. This is quite an intense question to deal with in a relationship.

32:10There are a few things going on here. They're probably pretty complex, but just to answer your question right off the bat, if you don't want to open your relationship, if monogamy is all you're interested in, that is absolutely fine. And you're obviously allowed to say, yeah, sorry, that's not what I want. This is not a crazy stance to take. These are your needs. They're your values. Just because you didn't go to Burning Man and do DMT or whatever happened to this guy. If your boyfriend has different ones, that's perfectly okay too, but that doesn't mean you need to suddenly compromise on your values or capitulate to his.

32:42You sound very clear on this. It's just not going to work for you, and that's that. Yeah, in a way, I feel like the real question is why is it so hard for her to tell him this is not what I want, end of story. But then I also wonder why this guy entered this relationship in the first place if he doesn't believe that human beings were meant to be monogamous. He's been with her for two years, right? And suddenly he's like, sorry, this isn't the way we're wired. Let's have threesomes or I'm not going to be happy. Yeah, it's a little strange, but I've seen this before. Again, back in my like dating coach days, I got a lot of questions like this.

33:14And it was like, how do I get my wife or girlfriend to be cool with threesomes? And I'm like, so where did you guys meet? Church, all right. And then it's like, well, is she into it? No, man, she thinks it's, well, how come you're into it? Was this not a part of your relationship before? And it's always some ish like, oh, I read this book by Dr. Chris Ryan called Sex at Dawn and Humans of Evolution, this and that and the other thing. And I'm like, cool, that's not what she signed up for. And you can have her read the book, but that doesn't mean she's suddenly gonna be like, oh, we've been doing this wrong.

33:42Yeah, let's sleep with tons of other women. Also, you know what? Here's something guys don't think of. Guys are like, yeah, I wanna bring other women to the bed. Try competing with your wife for how many people you can sleep with and you're gonna lose, homeboy. I was watching a video this morning. Do you see this reporter in Spain? She's doing a live broadcast. The guy walks up behind her and grabs her butt. I have not seen this. The dude gets arrested on live TV. It's actually makes Spain just look completely ridiculous. Not like that doesn't happen here. That's what women are contending with.

34:10They are beating D off literally with sticks and or they have to call the police to keep D away from them. And you're like, yeah, I'm going to get a threesome occasionally. Bro, you're going to get one every quarter and she's going to have three a night. You don't want this competition. So, yeah, look, it's possible he came to the conclusion in the last two years. dude's been reading a bunch of Esther Perel or whatever. She's kind of become the patron saint of consensual non-monogamy. Again, a dear friend of mine, so I'm not throwing any shade. But maybe now he's trying to reconcile his new views on monogamy with his current relationship, and he's just flailing around, and it's just not working.

34:47Which is also interesting because he's not breaking up with her. Right. That would be the obvious solution if he didn't feel very strongly about our friend anymore, or if he just wanted to have fun on his own. She's worried that she isn't good enough for him. And I really understand why she feels that way. But there's at least one huge piece of evidence that he does still want to be with her just on different terms. So it might be useful for her to separate those two things out. Right. But I can also absolutely understand why those terms make her feel insecure or unwanted because they're a little bit skeevy.

35:16It sounds like he's going about it in a skeevy way. Sure. It's a very confusing message to receive if you don't share the same view about relationships. I get it. What complicates the open relationship question though is this mismatch in their sex drives because it's hard to know if he wants to open up their relationship because he's unfulfilled or because this is just what he wants or it's what he thinks he wants because he's been doing Reddit deep dives. And like I said, I can see why she's hearing him say, let's get on the field app and live like nature intended. I can see why she's hearing that as sorry, you don't do it for me.

35:49I need to get it somewhere else. I need variety and you're boring or I just need more or I need different. Right. Plus her last husband cheated on her. So there's clearly a wound there, possibly a pattern. Maybe like, is she choosing guys who can't commit or have questionable ethics or want to step out on her? Or is her low libido potentially playing a role in this somehow? Okay, maybe. That's the one piece of this I do think she needs to look out for herself to really have a good grasp of her sexuality, because I'm hearing two things here. On the one hand, she's saying that she's just not a sexual person, which fair enough.

36:21You know, asexuality, definitely a thing. Some people just aren't wired this way. That's okay. But then she's also saying that she considers herself a prude and she knows that might be an issue. And being a prude, well, look, I guess that's compatible with being asexual. I can imagine that having no sexual desire or having a very low sexual desire might make sex feel awkward or shocking or dangerous. Just you don't even want to go near it. But is it possible that she has some issues or some other conflicts around sex, and that's made sex very fraught for her, and so she shut down her desire or never really explored it in the first place.

36:58Right, there's an interesting chicken or egg question here. Which I think she needs to get a good handle on if she hasn't yet, because all of this is making her feel like she's not enough for her boyfriend, and that's a very painful thought to bear when you don't really know where the problem lies, if there's a problem at all. Plus, she's grappling with this very intense question of, am I causing these guys to cheat on me or pull away or look elsewhere? Is it because I'm a prude and I'm not good in bed? And it's like, well, no, your boyfriend obviously has an interest in open relationships that has cropped up almost out of nowhere.

37:29And that's largely his stuff. He didn't seem to have a problem with it before, but if your boyfriend has needs that are not being met in the relationship, it would be important for both of you to know why. That's exactly right. All that said, though, there are two things happening here. There's the sex drive piece and the attitudes toward sex part of this, and then there's the values part about monogamy. Even if you guys had the same libidos, the same needs, I think you would still be opposed to opening up the relationships. So maybe the sexuality thing doesn't have any bearing on the main issue you're asking about, and it really is as simple as Jordan said.

38:02My opinion there is the same. If you want to be monogamous, that's absolutely fine, and you should feel comfortable communicating that to your boyfriend. If he feels differently, you might not be the right partners for each other. That would be a painful outcome, but that's probably the best if you guys are fundamentally on different pages. But look, if I'm in your shoes, I would want to understand myself as well as possible before making that decision. Just to really appreciate how my own stuff is playing a role in this very important part of a romantic relationship. Obviously, you know I'm going to recommend therapy and couples therapy if you think this is something you guys can work on together.

38:37Especially, by the way, because you said issues were popping up in other parts of the relationship, so. Yeah, I forgot about that detail, Gabe. That is interesting. It makes you wonder if maybe there's a few things going on here. Regardless, seek out some support. It's really important to work through this stuff. Yeah, if your boyfriend is determined to sleep with other people and that's just not going to work for you on any level, then this situation, as complicated as it is, it's actually pretty simple. So good luck with that. You know, also, whenever I hear about libido stuff, that might just be the way you're wired, but go get a hormone blood panel and take it to a doctor or an endocrinologist or something like that because I've just heard so many anecdotal examples of somebody being like, yeah, I went and my progesterone is like really low and we weren't gonna find out until we started trying to have kids that this was a thing.

39:25And now I'm on supplements and holy cow, this is how normal people feel. I'm banging all the time. Like I hear about this all the time from men and women. There's all kinds of stuff going on that you don't find out about until you're trying to get pregnant or whatever that you've had your whole life sometimes or that's cropped up in your 20s or 30s. But who knows? You could also be super stressed out about all this. That's not gonna make anybody wanna get freaky either. So there's lots of stuff that can be going on in a medical level. So don't just be like, I'm broken. I mean, go get therapy, get a blood panel.

39:55There's a lot of control you can take in this situation. All right, you can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Try to use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your stepdad's got your nudes, your neighbors are eavesdropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or your high-flying sibling is in a full-blown addiction that's tearing your family apart, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up, friday at jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous.

40:22Okay, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm that rarest of animals, a lawyer who actually likes his job. I've huck-finned my way into a pretty good gig. I spent my 20s bouncing around in a van trying to be a rock star, then got a law degree. After a few years of teaching and temping, I ended up working for a big corporation that everyone has heard of. In 10 years, I went from temp to contract specialist to senior contract specialist to in-house counsel to senior counsel. Wow. Okay. That's quite a journey and you don't have to be a lawyer to understand this. This guy basically went from zero to hero in 10 years.

40:59and that's faster, I think, than a lot of people probably realize. Sometimes these things happen by accident, usually not. I'm guessing you're pretty sharp, you're good at your job, people like you. To get this far ahead this quickly without having a real plan to do it, like you're not a gunner, you're not like I'm trying to make it in big law, it's quite impressive. Our department head is retiring in a couple of years and I was recently asked what role I want in the succession plan. Wow, okay, so these people really like you. They're literally saying like chairs are opening up, Which one do you want?

41:29That's pretty cool. You can tell he's taken seriously at this place. You don't ask an employee, so what role do you want in the succession plan if you don't want them to absolutely stick around and rise up? They say that so that you don't quit because you didn't get the role you wanted. They need you, they want you, they want to keep you. Here's the problem. I don't want a promotion. Interesting. Okay, well, this does fit with the whole Huck Finn living in a van. That is curious. In my current position, I negotiate contracts with other in-house counsel for services that have largely already been sold.

42:01I kind of like what I do. I'm paid really well to do it. It's low stress most days, and I average about 45 hours a week. I have time to play music at night, I take most of my PTO, I can work in my PJs when I'm not traveling, and most days I'm done by 6 p.m. My boss makes bank, but he has a full day of meetings, and then he has to do his job. He probably works 70 to 80 hours a week. Last year, he was happy because he only worked six hours on Thanksgiving. Oh my god, that sucks. That's such a lawyer thing. I do not want that life, pretty much regardless of what it pays. I'm in my early 50s, and if I stay in my current job, unless the market collapses, I'll be able to retire comfortably in a decade or so.

42:47I'd be thrilled to do what I'm doing for another decade, but I don't want to throw stank on my career by appearing ungrateful or lacking in ambition. How should I let management know that I'm not interested in moving up any further? Signed, a contented lawyer determined to be an enjoyer without becoming a destroyer of my employee's goodwill toward your boy here. Ooh, that sign off almost went off the rails, but you pulled it back just in time. I was like, oh, it's not gonna rhyme. It's not gonna, it rhymed. Thank you. Part of me wants to quibble with rhyming employer with boyer, but another part of me is kind of proud you did that.

43:23Appreciate it, I'll take it. Well, you're an interesting dude. The ex-rocketer who went to law school and just wants to have time to jam and hang out, brah. Like I said, I can appreciate that. You do have the best of both worlds now and you don't want to lose that. Work-life balance. It reminds me of when I was in law school, we had a senior partner who ran a pretty big law firm based out of Chicago. And he taught a course called Law Firms and Legal Careers. And we were like, why are the hours so terrible? And he goes, let me see you raise your hands. How much of you, if you were making X dollars, like whatever the starting salary was, 160 grand a year.

43:54How many of you would work half as much for half that pay? And like every hand almost in the class went up, except for the few guys who were like, I'm here to get rich, bro. And he's like, that's why. It still costs the firm money. You still got a seat. You've got benefits. You know, the work has to be spread out. There's logistics involved with each person. And he's like, they want to work you to death because you're more valuable. And I thought, oh, that's interesting. So yeah, you don't want to lose work-life balance. Everybody wants it. It does exist. It's not supposed to. So look, if you're absolutely sure that you don't want to rise up, then I think you can communicate that to the higher ups, but you really have to do it in a certain way.

44:30I wouldn't say, you know, thanks, but no thanks, man. I got a new Les Paul and I don't want to be a solo suit like you dorks, even though that's what you might mean. I would frame it more like, thank you so much for the opportunity, the consideration. I'm honored that you want me to be part of the succession plan here. I definitely want to help make this transition as successful as possible. I've asked myself where I can be the most useful. I've given it a lot of thought, and I've decided that, frankly, it's where I'm at right now, negotiating your contracts. I love what I do. I'm super grateful to work here.

44:59I'd just like to continue being a good attorney for you, and if I can help out with the transition around that, I'm happy to, but this role, this is where I thrive and where I believe I can be most helpful to the company. Something like that. Maybe negotiate a five to 25 % raise on top of it if you can. If you deliver that graciously, I think it'll go down the right way. And you know, depending on the personalities on your team, if I'm your boss, or especially if I'm your colleague, I love you for this, right? A workhorse who has absolutely no designs on my job or the promotion that I wanted for myself, perfect.

45:34You're friends with everybody if they know you're this guy. I didn't even think about that, that's true. Yeah, like, oh, you wanted to have a knife at my throat because you're worried I want to be a manager? Let me take this worry off your plate right now. I want you to go all the way up to the top. We're homies. I never want your job. So don't worry about me. And it's like, oh, okay, now I can stop holding out on you. I mean, that's perfect. My only caveat to this is sometimes playing it neutral during a major transition that could potentially play out not in your favor. I don't know what your company looks like.

46:05I have no idea. It could be fine. But in this Machiavellian game of Thrones world that we live in sometimes, especially in law, corporate, whatever. If you pass up a promotion, maybe that means some other lawyer makes a play for department head. Fine, you say. But then that person, they could reduce your responsibilities or they could shift you around or you could end up working for somebody you don't like or somebody who holds this decision against you because you're not as ambitious as they are and they're petty. Or maybe this succession plan kicks off a reorg or your department changes how it operates and that means more work for you or different work for you or more hours for you which you don't want and you can't do anything about it because you didn't rise up so you don't have any control over the situation itself.

46:48So that's just some things to consider. I don't think I would take a promotion I didn't want and be like, oh, good, at least now I'm in charge. I'm miserable, but I'm in charge so I can keep the status quo other than for myself. I know you don't want that hashtag boss life, but you might wanna play a little bit of chess, look downriver just a tiny bit to use your Huck Finn metaphor, game out a few likely scenarios. He goes, I hope none of this comes to pass, but just not making a choice is also a choice. And in corporate environments where a lot of people do want to rise up, you do have to be prepared for how that choice might play out.

47:22Well, yeah, very strong advice, Jordan. I hadn't considered those angles. I'm just wondering if there's anything else to this neutral stance of his. I know he wants to protect his lifestyle. I totally get that. But I do wonder if there might be something else going on here too. Does rising up feel daunting or uninteresting because it means like he would have to deal with people and problems that he doesn't have to deal with now. And maybe he feels a little out of his depth there, or he just doesn't like being part of the system at that level. You know, again, I'm thinking about the rock star bouncing around in that van.

47:53He's probably pretty unconventional. He's maybe suspicious of traditional work to some degree. Does he maybe have some feelings about being a department head because of that? Because look, the interesting thing is he is a great lawyer. He has done well. He's well liked. So part of me wonders, why wouldn't you want to follow those qualities into a bigger position? I know it's a hit to the lifestyle, but is he also undervaluing those qualities and the opportunities that they're creating for him? I think what he's saying is these opportunities just aren't that meaningful to me. What's meaningful to me is having a life of my own.

48:28Right. No, I totally get it. I'm not saying he's wrong. I just want to make sure that he really understands his reasons for turning this down. And also, I wonder whether he could do, if he ever did end up in this leadership position, department head, whatever, if he could do his boss's job in a different way, maybe a better way that still allows him to have the life that he loves. You know, that's a good point because he's looking at his boss like, oh, that job is brutal. No, thank you. But I always suspect this. That might also just be his boss's way of handling things. Maybe his boss attends way too many meetings that he doesn't even need to be in because he's like, I got to have my finger on the pulse.

49:00I got to be in control. Maybe he's not as efficient as he could be. Maybe he's wasting two hours a day redlining documents by hand or redoing all the work that his junior associates are doing or trying to fax him to people because he's old school. Who knows? Maybe he's choosing to work on Thanksgiving because he's a workaholic or he's not a good planner or he just has really bad boundaries. Yeah, or he doesn't like his family. And he's like, I'd rather be in the office. I mean, that describes so many executives, lawyers especially. But that doesn't mean it's necessary. Maybe our friend here would find a healthier way of doing that job.

49:33Maybe that role needs somebody with a little more chill and an assistant to find the right balance. That said, if you're totally secure in your decision to stay where you are, that's totally fine. The older I get, the more I appreciate how important the lifestyle element actually is. But definitely consider all the angles and make sure your reasons are solid, not just a fear of taking on new opportunities or falling into a certain trap. You're clearly a talented guy with a lot to offer, and it would be cool to flex those muscles and be rewarded for them. I think that's really gratifying too. So if you can do it while still shredding the guitar at night, amazing.

50:06If not, make sure your bosses know that you're pumped to be where you are and that you're going to keep crushing it. So good luck. You know, it's a great use of your plateaued earning power, Gabriel. Your stagnant wages. The amazing products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by The Gist Podcast. If you're looking for a news podcast that is smart, unfiltered, and doesn't just echo whatever side you already agree with, check out The Gist with my friend Mike Peska. Mike's been doing this longer than just about anyone. It's actually the longest-running daily news podcast.

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51:02He's an award-winning journalist. He's not some schmo like me who's totally unqualified. You've probably seen his work in the Atlantic, the Free Press, the Washington Post. He's got that rare mix of wit, skepticism, and depth that makes even heavy topics fun to listen to. And he's a great dinner guest, just saying. So if you want your daily news with more brains and less noise, check out The Gist with Mike Peska every weekday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday, and why wouldn't you? And you found our advice valuable. And again, why wouldn't you?

51:30I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support one of our amazing sponsors or multiple of our sponsors. Why not? JordanHarbinger.com slash deals is where you can find every deal. The AI chatbot can point you in the right direction as well. If you're super lazy, just email me, Jordan at JordanHarbinger.com. I'll dig up the code for you. Thank you for supporting those who support us. Really appreciate that. It does make all the difference. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, next up. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm 24 years old and I've been involved with my mentors for about two and a half years.

52:04I've been listening to a lot of your Feedback Fridays recently and have picked up on your clear disdain for MLMs, which has gotten me thinking. I consider myself quite an intelligent person and can clearly tell from the stories I've heard that a lot of these opportunities you talk about are just scams in disguise. But I'm struggling to reconcile that with the organization that I'm involved in. Basically, it's one of the huge MLMs out there, and it runs on a self-consumption model where we're not asked or taught to sell products, but rather to just replace products that we already use in our day-to-day lives with the MLMs alternative, and then bring in other like-minded people whose main focus is on mindset change and personal development.

52:49We don't ask just anyone and everyone to join, but rather have conversations with friends, family, and strangers to see where they're at in life and if they're looking to get ahead by creating a passive income. That's the core of this mentorship, not the network marketing business. Hold up. I'm confused. So he's saying that it's not an MLM. He's saying that whatever this organization is, I'm a little unclear on it as well, but he's saying that this mentorship community, the main focus is not the network marketing stuff. Okay. By the way, network marketing is another word for MLM. But he's saying that's not the core focus.

53:28It's self-improvement first and buying the MLM's products second. So if they're using Neutrogena moisturizer or whatever, their mentors are saying, hey, by the way, we'd really like you to buy our moisturizer instead in exchange for our mentoring you, whatever that means. Correct. That's right. Blah is correct. Yes. But wait, there's more. Okay, so the letter goes on. Yes, the goal is to be able to actually make profit off of this thing and find other people who are interested in the personal development and will buy the MLM's products. So obviously these new people would be my downline. Okay, so that settles that.

54:05This is clearly part of the MLM. And also what's left out here is, so if they're your downline, are you mentoring them or are they joining your mentoring group? Because why wouldn't they just buy directly from the other mentors? The whole thing falls apart pretty much instantly. But I also feel like I've benefited a lot from being involved with this team. I've had a lot of mindset changes and developed a lot of good habits, like reading and listening to uplifting audiobooks, like Rich Dad, Poor Dad, and How to Make Friends and Influence People. I know I haven't had any success with the business because I haven't actually put any of the real work in.

54:40Red flag. So I'm going to let you finish, but that is classic MLM gaslighting speak right there. The way it was explained to me was that our MLM is just a vehicle, and how it's utilized is entirely up to the person. I've seen firsthand, I don't know what that means exactly. Sorry, aside to you, Jordan, I'm not clear on that. I guess he means like some people can use an MLM in some nefarious way or they can use it in this really positive, uplifting way. And it's not about the MLM, it's about the people involved. Sure, I mean, that's what people say about every culty thing and scam ever. Like, it's all about how you use it.

55:16Okay, but the business model doesn't work, so it's going to fail for everybody who uses it anyway. Interesting. He goes on, I've seen firsthand how people have been able to rise up and eventually replace their full-time income with passive income. Furthermore, the fact that our organization is partnered with a major telecommunications company, a massive retailer, and many other credible companies allows me to believe that this is legitimate. Okay, well, just to get this bit out of the way, that doesn't make any of this legitimate. Do you think big companies go, oh yeah, we're going to let this place advertise for us.

55:48Quick, do a deep dive on their entire business practice and make sure that it's all legitimate. They don't care. That doesn't make anything legit. It just connects this pyramid scheme to other companies. That is it. Most, if not all, MLMs are, in theory, legal because they are not illegal. Even the ones that are shady and murky are allowed to operate. Look at Herbalife. Here's the problem, Gabriel. People think, oh, well, it would be illegal if it was a pyramid scheme. So it must be legal and not a pyramid scheme because it's allowed to operate. A pyramid scheme is when you exchange cash upwards and you have downlines of people that are giving you cash.

56:23That's why MLMs use products because then you're saying, oh, you're buying the products and the products are exchanged for money. The product is an afterthought. It's an excuse to exchange the money. It has nothing to do with the product. That's why it's allowed to operate as a quote unquote business instead of a straight up scam. That's the whole idea behind it. That's why the products are just always mediocre crap that's overpriced for what it is. Also, replacing full time income with passive income, that does not mean that the model is healthy or legitimate or a good use of your resources. It just means that with a clever structure, you can get other people to make money for you too.

56:59It doesn't mean it's a good thing to be a part of. You know, I know a guy that has so much money and he also just works only a few hours a day. You know what he does? he's a drug dealer. That's what he does. He doesn't pay taxes. Wow, his profit margins are enormous. Yeah, he sells cocaine. That's not a good business to get into. So it's really the same argument. This is another part of what worries me here. The appearance of legitimacy allows you to believe this is not only legitimate, but a good business, as if bad, illegitimate businesses never operate with a veneer of legitimacy and legality.

57:35I don't know if allowing yourself to believe something is really the best mindset to have, but we can come back to that. But now I'm having doubts just from hearing more and more of your stories. Good. Do I need to reconsider this group? Am I part of a scam? Or is this legit and truly helpful? Signed, enjoy this community with total immunity or be dispirited about this pyramid. Boy, okay, so candidly, I don't fully understand this mentorship angle, but I don't like it. I've heard about similar structures though before, Or since a lot of people are onto MLMs being scams, now there's a lot of mentorship.

58:11And even the letters we get about people getting recruited into MLMs are like, I don't know, my friend kept trying to do this thing where they're trying to evaluate if I'm good for their mentor group and I'm going to be mentored. And I kept saying, how does the money come into play? And what's the product? And they're like, won't tell me. It's this bullcrap. I don't like that you're part of a so-called mentorship group that does seem to have helped you in some ways. Credit where credit's due, right? But then part of the deal is that you have to buy products from your quote unquote mentors, and then you have to bring in other like-minded people who will do the same thing, which further enriches those mentors.

58:45If you want to get a coach for something, pay the coach with money. If you want to get a mentor for something, there's a value exchange that isn't you buying the toilet paper from them. You might do some work with them. That's not what this is at all. That right there, what we're talking about, this is a pyramid, it's a network or a circle or whatever creepy shape enables the financial scheme to happen. The fact that you're not asked to sell the products yourself, it doesn't change anything. In fact, that's usually the case with MLMs. They go, oh, you don't have to sell the products. You give other people the opportunity to sell the products.

59:19In fact, most MLMs, most people sell almost no products. They just get other people recruited in underneath them. That's the actual business model of a pyramid scheme, of an MLM. So if anything, it sounds like that keeps you firmly in the role of consumer slash recruiter, not actual salesperson yourself, which frankly makes me wonder if you're benefiting even less than you would in other types of arrangements where at least you learn sales skills. I mean, they're basically just pulling customers into their orbit, right? That is ultimately what this is about. But I'm also concerned about this other thing that you said that, you know, you haven't had any success with the business because you quote, haven't actually put in any of the real work.

59:57That is exactly what MLM ideology says to everyone who isn't crushing it and at the top of the pyramid. They have to blame you because the other alternative is that the business model doesn't work, which guess which one of those things is true. When people don't see results, MLMs will always turn around and say, well, you aren't trying hard enough. You aren't really doing what it takes. That is a way to deflect legitimate skepticism of the business model and redirect responsibility to you. It will always happen that way. It is eerily reminiscent of how cults operate. Oh, you just aren't committed enough.

1:00:33You don't believe hard enough. That's why you're not getting the magic powers that the cult leaders have or the other people in the group. But more to the point, you're acknowledging that there is a business here. But then you're also saying, well, it's not really about the business. It's about the mentorship first. Those contradictions, those mental gymnastics, it's classic scam stuff. Also, if these people couldn't move their product through you, if there were no money to be made, I promise you, bro, the offer of mentorship would evaporate immediately. That's the difference between real mentorship and the kind of quote-unquote mentorship you find in MLMs and other schemes.

1:01:10Because in reality, this mentorship crap, you're in a sales funnel. They're using it to create more downline, to find more targets, essentially. So yes, you're in a scam, but you're also perpetrating the same scam. And I'm sorry to say that that might be a little disconcerting or even hurtful to hear because I know you have an attachment to this group and they have sort of helped you in some ways. But honestly, that's the truth. Yeah, but also Jordan, the ways that they've helped him, they're very generic, right? Yeah, it's very lowest common denominator. I wasn't really gonna go there, but it's like, good Lord, this is like self-help from Instagram.

1:01:42Read these books. He's had a lot of mindset changes, as he put it. He's developed a lot of good habits. He's reading, he's listening to audio books. Uplifting audio books, podcasts. I doubt they recommended this one. Or if they have, they're going to stop after this episode. So presumably it's a lot of inspirational content and books about motivation and courage, hope, faith, stuff like that. I mean, Rich Dad, Poor Dad and the Dale Carnegie book. How to Win Friends and Influence People. Yes. I'm sure they contain some gems in there, but those are pretty generic recommendations. Well, two things.

1:02:16One, yes, they are generic. You can get any of those recommendations off a listicle that you get off of like BuzzFeed or something like that circa 2015, okay? But also Rich Dad, Poor Dad, classic MLM fare. I'm pretty sure that both the author and the content of that book are not well regarded by actual business people most of the time. It's super vague. It's BSE. I've read it and I remember being like, what the actual hell is this? This is complete nonsense. I believe the author himself ran a shady financial scheme of his own or currently does. Oh, really? I did not know that. Yeah, nobody who's actually like good at business will hear the name Robert Kiyosaki and be like, that's the guy.

1:02:53They're like, isn't that the MLM financial guy who's always like flashing his Lambos? It's a lot of hokey, abstract principles of success that he did not originate. And those are precisely the kinds of ideas that these organizations push on people. It's never critical thinking. It's never a book on marketing by Harvard Business School. It's never gonna be rigorous psychology or how to build a great team or whatever. It's going to be rah-rah recruitment stuff. And it's also a lot of vague concepts that, look, they're not inherently bad. Of course, most of the stuff, we all need some courage. We all need hope and confidence.

1:03:26Sure, fine. But when that's the main product being sold, it's usually to discourage critical thinking, not to enhance it. Well, the truth is he could be working on his mindset and his habits and his reading ritual on his own. But this group has given him structure. It's given him community. it sounds like it's given him a sense of, hey, these people are really on my team and they're making me better and they're holding me accountable. And all they ask is that I help them out by buying their shampoo. You know, what's wrong with that? So I actually feel for him, but that is what disturbs me about this because the scheme here is being threaded through this seemingly productive, maybe occasionally helpful arrangement.

1:04:07Exactly. That makes it creepier to me. Another thing I forgot to mention when he said, I'm not seeing success because I haven't done the work. Here's the thing. What kind of success? Are you not getting success for reading how to win friends and influence people? No, that's not what he's talking about here. For sure. What he's talking about is the financial success. And what that means is he's in the red on the shampoo and toilet paper that he's being forced to buy from these guys and recruiting people for his downline. So he's in the red. He could literally pay a real coach the actual money that he's losing in this crappy business venture and get real coaching with somebody who's accountable to him and doesn't just see him as a spreadsheet on their downline map.

1:04:43It's not that he's not getting success from reading the books and learning the material. They don't give a if he's successful with that stuff. That's not the point. The point is he's not making money for them because dot, dot, dot, he hasn't applied what he's learned. Why the are you working for them? Just pay them. That's what I'm trying to say. Sorry, I'm getting worked up here. I'm dropping F-bombs. I usually don't try to do that. At least when you're one node in a network marketing scheme, you know the score. You know what the deal is, or at least I hope you do. Sadly, a lot of people don't.

1:05:09That's one of the major problems with MLMs, but it's not a huge mystery, right? You buy stuff, you recruit more people to buy stuff from you, you build a downline, you keep a bunch of crap in your garage, you think you're gonna sell it later, whatever, you try to use it, you can't. Most people, even the true believers, they get it after a while. This is something else that's designed to keep you from really understanding what you're into because it looks like a mentorship program when really it's just another freaking MLM. You know, it reminds me of that letter we took a few months back from that woman who was dating that guy who was involved in an MLM.

1:05:40Do you remember that? Yes. And he was like, my mentor saved my life. And she was like, she was a therapist or something or studying to be a therapist. And she was like, oh, how do I tell him? So it's crazy. But now that I think about it, he was involved in this same MLM. No surprise, I guess at all. I'm just remembering that we didn't include the name of the MLM in that letter either, but it's the same exact one. That was episode 865, by the way. So I'm guessing this mentorship strategy is a common recruiting tool for that company. It is. I think I mentioned before that now that people are becoming more hip to the MLM game, it probably lowers their defenses.

1:06:15So instead of being like, hey, you want to join my MLM? And everyone's like, no, runs in the other direction. They're like, hey, you want to be awesome? This is going to get you in the back door. I've taken on like-minded, amazing go-getters. And you're like, well, sure. And then this gets you in the back door. And also it puts another veneer over the nonsense. But again, it's not mentorship if there's an expectation that you enrich your mentor directly or indirectly. It's the opposite of mentorship if you think about it. Well, they would rather you not think about it. So do you need to reconsider this group?

1:06:44Yes, definitely, man. I would encourage anyone in any group of any kind, MLM or otherwise, to always be reassessing their involvement, figuring out what the proverbial deal is. But yes, there is something shady going on here. The fact that you've benefited in some way, it doesn't change the fact that it's shady. It just means that these people understand that you need to get something out of it too, or at least he needs to look like you are. Because if you're not making any money in an MLM, you start to go, geez, I'm losing money. But if you're getting some nebulous mentorship, you can start to justify that money loss, that financial loss.

1:07:17So whether that thing is meaningful, that's up to you to decide. I don't mean to disparage the nice parts of this. Obviously your mindset's important. Reading is crucial. You're speaking my language. But look, man, you don't need these people to tell you that. And if this stuff is truly meaningful to you, I don't know if you need them to keep you accountable for doing it. And you definitely don't need any of that if the deal is, hey, buy my toilet paper and also tell your friends and family that we'll help them too if they buy our products. So look, we do this show for free, but not really, right?

1:07:48We get paid when you support the sponsors. I ask you to support the sponsors, but you know what I don't do? I don't go, you can't listen to the show unless you buy this mattress. and you got to get your friends to buy the mattress too. And then they can listen to the show. Why is that? That's not the model. The model is such that I can afford to be generous here. And are they doing so much more for you than we are here on the show? Maybe they are, but I bet you can get that from a coach. And I really hope this helps you, bud. I know I'm being snarky. I do get worked up about the MLM stuff. And I really appreciate that you're open to looking at things in a new way.

1:08:21I'm only grouchy because I really don't like how these groups prey on curious people. I bet this guy's young too. They prey on curious and young people like you. So keep asking good questions, keep your own counsel and good luck. I really think anything you could get from a fake ass mentorship group where you buy products, you should just take that money and hire real coaches who specialize in real skills and learn those skills from those coaches. These guys are always hacks. I remember a point I was gonna make earlier here, very briefly. I've got a large network, right? And I've got this platform of the show which has millions of people every month.

1:08:54I can't even count how many MLM people come to me, the leaders of these things. And they're like, look, man, what we're gonna do, you join us, you advertise this, we're gonna jump you ahead of all the underlings and the downlines, and we're gonna give you this whole, I forget what they call it, it's like a leg of the business. And all these guys on all these downlines are gonna pay their bosses who run these mentorship group things, and those guys are gonna kick up to somebody like me, and I'm gonna advertise these mentorship groups. And when I'm like, huh, what are these mentorship groups about?

1:09:26Not that I'm thinking of doing this. I just like to figure out how these things work. It's always some nonsense crap like this. Oh, these guys run Zoom calls with like 20 or 30 guys on them. And that's how they recruit their team. And I'm like, but what happens in the call? And it's like, oh, it's like a book club. Like, really? So these guys are spending thousands of dollars on toilet paper they don't need so that they're in a glorified book club that's not even as good as a regular book club because it comes with stress. Hard pass. Anyways, yeah. So not only am I anti-scam, I'm anti-MLM, and MLMs are always a scam.

1:09:57There is not one that exists that is not, so far. Okay, hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone who wrote in this week and everyone who listened. Thank you so much. Don't forget to check out our episodes with Tobias Rose Stockwell on social media, why it keeps us angry and creates extremists, and our out-of-the-loop episode on Israel and Hamas. If you haven't heard those yet, definitely recommend those from this week. The best things that have happened in my life and business come through— it only took me five years to pronounce it right— have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust, and who buy pallets of paper towels from me in exchange for mentorship.

1:10:28Now, I'm teaching you how to build the same type of circle for yourself without the paper towels. In our six-minute networking course, it's free. It's not gross. You don't have to buy any shampoo. It's just over there on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com slash course. Dig the well before you get thirsty. Build relationships before you need them. And hey, you don't even have to exploit those relationships for shallow financial gain. You can find it all for free at jordanharbinger.com slash course. Newsletter, wee bit wiser. Every Wednesday, a bite-sized gem from a past episode will flutter into your inbox.

1:10:57If you want to keep up with the wisdom of our, oh my gosh, 900 plus episodes and apply it to your life, I invite you to come check it out. Sign up at jordanharbinger.com slash news. Show notes and transcripts on the website at jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show over at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Our AI chatbot on the website to help you with everything as well. I'm at jordanharbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn and you can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One.

1:11:30My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Dr. Margolis' input is general psychological information based on research and clinical experience is intended to be general and informational in nature. It does not represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love.

1:11:57And if you found the episode useful, please share it with someone else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you can apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger show with the godfather of influence, Robert Cialdini. Of course, as we know from being scammed over and over by everyone online or otherwise, all of these things can be engineered. And we've talked about that on the show. We've had con men on the show who pull these levers, right? They are levers of influence.

1:12:31They just flick a switch and we respond automatically. Liking is one of the universal principles of influence because it works so well and so broadly. across all these situations. There is also something called a horns effect, just like there's a halo effect where everything around you, if you're good looking, if there's something negative about you, people then associate other negative things with you. So we have to be sure that our first encounters with people are very positive. When you go into a new situation, when you don't know very much about the people that you're dealing with. Expect the best from them.

1:13:14That allows you to be generous. And the consequence of being generous hits on three of the principles. First of all, people like you more. Secondly, they reciprocate the generosity with generosity of their own. And when they've done that, when they've given to you, they've made a decision about making a commitment to your partnership. It's costless. And the other thing it does, besides producing a gift that you've given to people and the obligation to give back that goes with it, you've established yourself as an authority. And authority is another one of the universal principles of influence.

1:14:00whatever your business is, you give first. For more on Robert Cialdini's universal principles of influence that will turn you into an unstoppable persuasion machine, check out episode 507 on The Jordan Harbinger Show.