915: Mom's Crush on Star Has Gone Way Too Far | Feedback Friday

23:18If somebody else responds, they're signing their name. Like when you do it, you just sign your name and you CC me or not. Also, the emails would be so lame. And I do love talking to the show fans. It's one of the best parts of doing this podcast. So, yeah, I'm not going to be pulling a hot middle-aged guy who plays mentally unstable girls emotionally unavailable father on Riverdale anytime soon. Too much, I guess, integrity for that, if I can say that about myself. And frankly, too little jawline. That's the real problem. We're hosting yourself at this point. Thank you. Yeah, Gabe. Yeah, I'm coming up with a little material.

23:48Gabe, you man the Feedback Friday inbox. You're the closest thing to a virtual assistant that I'm comfortable with. But again, you sign your name. People know they are reaching you at least when you respond. They don't think that they're talking to me when you write them. That is true. I also respond to everybody saying, thanks for writing into Feedback Friday. I'm going to the beach. And that seems to do the job. Right, yeah. More like I'm going to my weird hot yoga class where the carpet smells like feet, tucking into my organic oat milk chia seed pudding. What are you doing? Wait, wait, wait, slow down.

24:16This is really good. This is really good. I'm going to update the filters right now. Update the autoresponder. Hot yoga, chia seed pudding. Done. Chia seed pudding is hella good, though. By the way, writer, I think you could do that same thing. Google the guy's name in front of her, grab the number, text, and just show the instantaneous robot responses. And maybe that'll be a really big clue when two of you do it at the exact same time that no human could type that fast and say the exact same things. It'll be really obvious that it's software at that point. And by the way, Gabriel, software can easily say, when's your birthday?

24:50And then you tell them, and then it sets a reminder and sends you something on your birthday and says, like, I hope you have a great day. It's not a real conversation. It's also just clever automation. There's no way he knows the birthday of multiple show fans. Why would he? There must have been some step along the way where you give this service personal information and then they're tailoring the messages to you, which is so weirdly smart and also creepy. But it's sad that somebody like Jane would see that and be like, oh, my God, he remembered my birthday. Right. It's like, oh, it's and also, oh, he remembers where I'm from.

25:18Oh, gee, where would that data come from? I don't know. The IP address they got when you click the link, the area code of your phone number. I mean, right. I can't tell you how many people are like, oh, are you from New York? And I'm like, I used to live there. And they're like, oh, oh, you're not in New York right now. And I'm thinking, when is the last time you used a damn area code? And the person was in that area code. Come on, man. That's three soundbites. That's our max for the whole show. You know what else is borderline delusional? the crazy good deals on the fine products and services that support this show.

25:45We'll be right back. That's Jordan. This is off the pod cover. Thank you for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers does keep us going. To learn more and get links to all the great discounts you hear on the show so you can check out the sponsors for yourself, visit jordanharbinger.com slash deals. You can also search for any sponsor using the AI chatbot on the website as well. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a 17-year-old Nigerian girl, and I need help. It all started when I was 12 or 13 years old.

26:22I remember feeling so frustrated that I couldn't solve a math problem that I burst into tears. I'm a very emotional person who has been told many times that I'm too much of a perfectionist. Then he walked up to me with a warm smile, and instead of aggressively asking why I was crying, he joked around to lighten my mood. I was really lonely and needed someone to talk to, and eventually I opened up to him. As I was preparing for a math competition, he would take me out for walks, and he reassured me I was doing fine when the pressure became too much. The only problem is that this he was my teacher, and I had a growing infatuation with him.

27:03Oh, man. So, okay, you're a very bright, driven, emotional person. You can be hard on yourself. But you needed a friend, and he spotted that, which is not okay. But let's see where this goes. The competition rolled around, and I came in first place in the first round, which was a written exam. I remember the pride on his face when he congratulated me, and I felt really happy. But I ended up coming in third place in the oral part of the competition, and I spiraled into depression. I had worked so hard to win that it felt like the end of the world. Interesting. So there's definitely a theme here.

27:39Failure, falling short, struggling. These are clearly big injuries for you. Triggers. And this is perfectionism at work. Just flagging that. Carry on, Gabe. But he continued to encourage me. And he was the only one who didn't think I was overreacting when I said I was depressed. So he encouraged you. He validated you. When you're not getting that at home, that can be very powerful. And I hate that it came from this guy. And I hate that he spotted that. But I understand why you needed that. In hindsight, I now realize that he did some things that were kind of inappropriate. Commenting on the length of my dress, holding my hand, and hugging me often.

28:16Here we go. Then one day, I asked Abar's phone to watch a movie, and that's when I saw the videos. At first, I was appalled by the sight, but I couldn't help myself, and I watched all the videos I found. When I asked him about them, he nonchalantly told me that they weren't for him. His brother probably downloaded them. And since he wasn't bothered about it, I never brought it up again. After this encounter, I found myself addicted to watching porn. Oh, okay. So these clearly were not cat videos. Yeah, these were not memes. This was edgy stuff. And it sounds like she found it accidentally. Well, it depends.

28:52It's kind of weird, right? It makes me wonder, did he want her to see them? Like, why would he give her his phone? What's the deal? Well, also, like, if you say, hey, Jordan, can I borrow your phone? and I have no notice and I give you my phone and you find something on there, that's kind of like, well, that wasn't my fault. I just have kinky crap on my phone. But if she's like, can I borrow your phone tomorrow? I want to watch a movie. And he's like, great, let me download a bunch of porn and make sure that it shows up first when she opens the movie app. That's a different, more predatory thing.

29:17It could go either way. But given what he did, I wouldn't completely put it past him to pull something like that. I think that's why she's writing in. Because if she was like, oh crap, I got this guy's personal stuff. I feel ashamed. That's different. So the letter goes on. my parents eventually found out. They're very religious, but they were supportive and we had a talk about it, so I thought I was over it. But recently, I started watching porn again and masturbating too. I've been watching a lot of hardcore porn, which my parents would be horrified about if they caught me. I don't think I can tell them about the fantasies I have of doing all the things that the performers do.

29:53Okay, why would you tell them all of the fantasies? That's an interesting comment, Gabe. It is. I don't mean to hold us up, But there's an element here of like confessing or being found out or something like that. She said they're religious. And that makes me wonder if they expect her to tell them everything, quote unquote, bad that she thinks and feels. Or she just feels that way. Right. She feels some kind of obligation, which is also wildly inappropriate. I was going to use the exact same term, wildly inappropriate. Like, hi, I've been having these really creepy sexual thoughts. Let me tell you all about them and why I got them, dad.

30:24Well, no, thank you. It also sounds like her parents' opinion matters a lot to her. So maybe that's playing a role. Maybe. Letter goes on. I'm desperate to find a way out of this addiction. It's reduced my productivity and my bond with God as a Christian. I've tried praying about it and Googling different remedies, but what practical advice can you give for stopping an addiction like this? Also, I've been thinking about reaching out to my old teacher. Do you think that's normal? Oh. Signed, still thinking about this lout who messed me about and afraid of being cast out for rubbing one out. Oh gosh, Gabriel.

31:01Oh gosh. Oh man. It was right there. It was, it was right there. So there's a lot going on here. There's you and your interesting personality. There's this teacher, there's the pornography, there's the moral religious angle, and then there are your parents and they're all related probably in ways that are even more complex than we realize. I just want to start by saying, I'm so sorry that this teacher seems to have targeted you in this way. Your relationship makes a lot of sense, but it's totally inappropriate. And it sounds like textbook grooming. And given your age, maybe even the early stages of abuse.

31:35I'm relieved that based on what you've shared anyway, it didn't go any further than this. But clearly it's left a mark on you. And I'm just I'm feeling very angry at this guy and very sorry for you. We wanted to share your story with an expert. So we reached out to Dr. Ruben Kodum, clinical psychologist specializing in addiction and trauma. And Dr. Kodum had a similar response to us. He said that what happened to you, it sounds incredibly inappropriate and impactful for a girl as young as you were and are. And he hopes that you recognize that and you're getting support for it. As for the impact it's had on you, Dr.

32:08Kodam appreciated your vulnerability in bringing up this issue of porn addiction. As he explained it to us, it's a complex issue because even though porn doesn't have the same chemical properties as substances like alcohol or cannabis, it does activate similar reward pathways in the brain. So yes, there are differences between behavioral and substance addictions, but many of the skills and strategies for getting better can be similar. So one strategy Dr. Kodum said can be helpful is restriction. Surprise, surprise. In other words, restricting your ability to access the means to the behavior you're trying to change.

32:40Basically, we want to make it harder to access pornographic content by creating more steps, adding some friction, some barriers in there. You're going to create a stopgap to pause and make a different choice in the meantime. So what this looks like in practice is setting parental restrictions on phones, tablets, laptops, wherever you access that content. You could also block certain websites using your phone settings. On a deeper level though, Dr. Codham would encourage you to honestly evaluate your triggers. You can start by looking at your external triggers, whether it's people, places, things.

33:12This includes times of day, days of the week. His recommendation, see if there are certain days and times that you tend to watch porn the most. Maybe you're procrastinating doing a hard assignment or something like that. and think about things in your environment that may trigger you more than others and then target those areas. So for example, if you know you tend to watch porn at night, Dr. Codham would consider leaving your phone in a separate room altogether after a certain time. You can set an alarm for 7 p.m. or whatever and that alarm will tell you, hey, put your phone away or turn it off or leave it in another room, whatever.

33:44You can also enlist the support of somebody else. Maybe you can think of an excuse and ask somebody to hold onto your phone during certain periods of the day or night. That might help you break the cycle. But the deeper work, Dr. Kodum said, will be looking at your internal triggers, your thoughts and your emotions. His question for you was, what function does porn serve in your life? Does it give you rest or relief that you don't get otherwise? Does it immerse you in an image or fantasy that seems more interesting or more appealing or more glamorous than what your current life offers? If so, he would encourage you to think about alternative, healthy reinforcers or ways that used to provide you some relief that maybe you've just stopped doing as much.

34:28Maybe there are hobbies or experiences you wanna be doing that serve the same function that porn does, but in a healthier, more values-aligned way. And you mentioned that your religion is an important one to you. If that's true, Dr. Kodum brought up the idea of considering goals related to that, maybe finding more ways you can get involved in your church. The more time you invest in church or other activities that fulfill you, it's possible that the less compelling porn will be and the less it'll hijack your mind and your body. In fact, Dr. Kodum told us that studies have shown that the more we engage in healthy, pleasurable reinforcers that are not substances, the less likely we are to use the substance itself.

35:05So I would completely endorse that because I think that sense of purpose and that community could be very, very helpful to you right now, but I endorse it with one big caveat, which is if your religion or just your culture in general is somehow shaming you for this impulse or maybe creating the conditions for you to want to watch porn in the first place, then I would be very thoughtful about how you engage with it. You know, Dr. Kodom is right. Getting involved in activities that you find meaningful, yes, that is a powerful way to reduce dependency. But I'm just flagging this, Jordan, because there are a few things in her letter that do give me pause.

35:42Right. I want to clarify, we're not saying, oh no, you watch porn, turn to Jesus, that'll fix everything on its own. and you need to be more religious or something like that. I don't think that's what it sounds like we're saying, but I want to be very clear. Gabe, what you're getting at is that this thing about being worried about telling her parents about what she's into, right? Is that what you're going for? The thing about telling her parents, for sure, but even more to the point, the perfectionism and this emotional volatility thing and the depression piece. Obviously, I don't know if those qualities were informed by her religion.

36:10I think it's more likely that they were informed by her family and, again, her culture, but her family is religious. So look, there might be some connection there. But I do wonder if these qualities that she really took the time to mention in her letter are another internal trigger, maybe the internal trigger. You know, being emotional, being frustrated, being extremely hard on herself when she doesn't perform the way she wants to, like with the math competition, which is where this whole saga began. And then it's like, boom, here's this easily accessible pornography that distracts you from your thoughts and your feelings and maybe shuts down parts of your personality and just you can become so consumed in it.

36:46I mean, just like any other behavior or substance. The porn might be compelling and gratifying to her in a number of ways, but I suspect that one of its functions for her is it's an immediate escape from this pattern of hers to get very worked up and to tear herself down and then to spiral out when she falls short of her expectations. Right, right. That makes a lot of sense. And so your point is get involved in church if it helps, but if church is part of what's triggering you or if it's creating the triggers, then that could be a double-edged sword. That's right. And to be clear, I'm not saying she should give up her religion.

37:18I know it's important to her, and for all we know, it's this very grounding thing in her life. But to your point, Jordan, I don't think the answer is just go to church and this will all go away. And I also think that just burying yourself in any ideology, even if it's a really helpful one, that could just be another strategy to avoid looking at this stuff more clearly, right? In my view, right now, her job is to appreciate all of the variables in this addiction. Her family, her culture, her environment, her relationships, even this teacher, and to start digging into how they make her want to consume this stuff.

37:49Speaking of the teacher, she said she's been thinking about reaching out to him and do we think that's normal? Okay, so my thought here is, yeah, it's probably normal to want to reach out to him. He met you at a formative time. He was obviously a big influence on you, not entirely in a good way, but I would definitely not recommend reaching out to him. I'm sorry to say, but this guy's a low-key predator from the sound of it. There might have been aspects of your relationship that were meaningful. But the reality is he had a very different agenda with you from what I can gather from this letter.

38:17He commented at the length of your dress. He held your hand. He hugged you a lot. When you're 12 and 13, that is just crazy inappropriate. It's not okay. This is not a safe person for you, even if you're older now. And I worry about what contacting him would bring up for you and what it might lead to now. Gabriel, by the way, she's Nigerian, right? This person's over. She's Nigerian and she's 17. So this is a conservative society. This is not like, if this person was writing in from a country that was like, we live in Spain, it's normal for teachers to hug students, and everybody's all kissy. Okay, maybe that's one thing.

38:51But when you're talking about this religious conservative society, and this guy's like, oh, your dress is really short. Let me hold your hand and go for a walk and hug you a lot. And you're a 13-year-old girl. Unusual. That is 100 % not okay. So, yeah, I worry about what contacting him would bring up for you and what it might lead to. So, no, I would just not reach out to this guy. I think you need to stay far away from him and sort through everything that his attention brought up for you in the first place. And also maybe contact your school and tell them what happened because I'm a little worried about whether this guy is doing this to other students.

39:22Yeah, good call. These people tend to have a pattern, right? There's a reason why one brave person says something and then 20 other people come out of the woodwork. And by the way, I don't want to speculate too much, but I do wonder if your experience with this guy is another trigger with the porn. Obviously, he first introduced you to it seemingly accidentally. Although who knows? But I wonder if the trauma associated with his attention and also perhaps the trauma of losing contact with him, which might sound weird, but this stuff is complicated. I wonder if that also might be drawing you to the porn.

39:52And I'm curious to know if some of the fantasies you have echo anything that happened with this teacher. Or maybe there's some connection there. But I'll let you figure that out on your own. Bottom line, it's time to change your relationship with the porn. To quote Dr. Codham here, it's normal for us as humans to want to seek that high, that rush, that fantasy that drugs and behavioral addictions provide. But at some point, those things can reach a tipping point where they control us rather than us controlling them. So one of the best strategies you can pursue is finding other ways of getting that rush, but don't give you the same side effects or downsides, which means doing the work, maybe with a professional if you need it, to get to the bottom of this.

40:31I think that'll really help a lot. And we're sending you good thoughts and wishing you the best. You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. please keep your emails concise, use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If your abusive parent won't stop stalking you, your addicted sibling is spinning out, or your super conservative spouse has suddenly become a sex-crazed maniac, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up, friday at jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous. Okay, next up. Hey guys, I've struggled throughout my life to find a purpose, and for a while, to hold down a job for more than a year.

41:05I've also struggled with shyness and confidence issues. Then, four years ago, I landed a job in emergency services here in Australia in the initial transfer of calls for help. I truly want to help people. So, after seeing the issues that they were dealing with during the pandemic, I took the biggest leap of my life and applied for the job. I felt I was finally past my self-esteem and shyness issues, and I started working directly for the emergency services in my state. So cool. This is such a great combination of jumping on a random opportunity and paying attention to what's meaningful to you.

41:41So well done, man. I sailed through my classroom training and am now at my final sign-off stage. But I find that in chaotic situations, I freeze and let the situation emotionally get to me, despite knowing exactly what I need to do. I love my job and know that I'm supported by my employer, but I feel that there's something holding me back from being direct and assertive to gain control over the situation and do what I need to do. I'm generally a shy and passive person, and in 99 % of situations, this problem won't cause an issue. But in a life or death situation, I want to be the person someone can rely on.

42:18I feel that others are able to create an almost alternate persona to control the situation. What can I do to be the best person I can be in a crisis and save a life? Signed, finding my spine and trying to shine on the other end of the line. Great question. First of all, like I said, I think it's fantastic that you landed this job. This is truly noble work. It is not easy, and I just love that you threw yourself into a very intense and uncomfortable profession. I also love it, though, because I can't think of a job that's better designed to address the shyness and confidence issues. I mean, when you're a 911 operator or whatever the equivalent in Australia is.

42:56Triple zero. Triple zero. Why do you know that? I don't know. I don't know. I think I probably watch like an Australian soap opera or something. You're probably texting with an Australian soap opera star. That's what it is. He was like, call triple zero. It's getting so hot. Yeah, can I text you at 2 a.m. when I can't sleep? Anyway, when you're a triple zero operator, you can't hesitate or shut down. You have to act. So I find this choice of yours so interesting. I don't know if you deliberately went into this line of work to work on this stuff or you stumbled into it, but either way, your psyche kind of knew you needed to go here.

43:29This is how you grow, by struggling, by putting yourself in situations where you have to stretch. So it's interesting. In a way, this is a hard one to address on the show because a lot of the work you need to do around this, it's internal, right? So you're going to have to do this work on your own, on the job. But first of all, if you're shy and passive, then there's a reason for that. Some combination of conditioning and personality and values and self-concepts. But on some level, being shy, being passive, it's a response to something or it's serving some purpose for you. Maybe those qualities are trying to keep you safe.

44:02You know, like, well, if I just take a back seat, if I'm not the one taking charge, then somebody else will step up and this won't be my responsibility. Or maybe there are some beliefs underpinning those qualities. For example, oh, I don't have what it takes to be a leader or I don't deserve to be a leader. Or if I take charge of a situation, I don't have the goods to back it up. There might be a script in your head going, who am I to walk someone through a life or death situation? What will people think of me if I step up and assert myself more? Or hey, maybe this whole job is just so damn intense that it's a little overwhelming sometimes.

44:34In stressful situations, it can be hard to tap into your authority. It can be hard to stay calm and stay confident. So I would dig into this self-esteem stuff, the confidence stuff, and try to get to the root of those qualities. Might be childhood stuff, might be experiences you had later in life, might be ways you're self-protecting, might just be you adjusting to the intense reality of the job. But you need to unpack this so you can really understand why these qualities want to lead. At the same time, I would study your peers who are doing well in this job and I would make them your teachers.

45:07That could mean literally asking them, hey, I'm struggling to take control of situations. My tendency is to shrink away when there's a crisis. I notice you don't do that. How'd you get that way? What's going through your head when you're on a tough call? Do you have any advice for me? And just listen to what they say. Start putting it into practice. It can also be less formal than that. Maybe you just study your peers more and try to implement this stuff on your own. I would also talk to your supervisors and trainers about this. See what they say. If this were me, I would be just as open with them.

45:37Like, I know this is where I'm meant to be. I want to be the person someone can rely on, but I'm struggling. What would you recommend that I do? Open yourself up to their help. You have amazing models all around you. I would also consider working with a therapist and or a coach, maybe both, even if it's just for a short time. A therapist can definitely help you do some of that inner work we were talking about earlier. And I also think it's important for you to have a place to talk about your career and process everything it brings up. Because like we keep saying, this is an intense line of work.

46:06And a good coach can help you with the more practical aspects of the situation. Things like articulating yourself well, vocal tonality, working through limiting beliefs, building relationships, setting goals, tracking your progress. That would be great for you too. You know, I'm also very intrigued by this alternate persona some of his colleagues use on the job. That's another thing that I would ask them about, you know, how they develop that persona, how they tap into it. I'm obviously not a 911 dispatcher, triple zero dispatcher, but I assume that going into that mode is very useful on the job.

46:38And over time, the gap between that persona and your real personality probably starts to narrow and you no longer feel like you're pretending you're just doing. and it's more like putting on your triple zero hat when you're on the clock. So as a transitional phase, I'm all for it, why not? But here's the really good news. None of these qualities that you're talking about are written in stone. We can change, we can always change. Neuroplasticity, personal evolution, they're real. These things actually exist. The fact that you're saying, I want to be the person someone can rely on, which I find so admirable, that is a great sign because that means that the desire to grow is there.

47:18You know, you're not saying like, my bosses are telling me that I need to be more assertive, but I really have no interest in doing that. You're like, you're there mentally, you're down to do this. You're just, you just have to work through some stuff. This is not a self-interested desire on your part. It's a desire that's tied to helping other people. So what I'm hearing, Jordan, is that this guy has a real sense of purpose. And I think that's going to give him some urgency and some much needed fuel to make this happen. Agreed. He might need a little more time than other people to build these muscles, but that's totally fine.

47:47I don't think 9-1-1 or triple zero, I don't think they would have hired you if they didn't think you were equipped to help people. The important thing is to be very proactive and avail yourself of all the resources you need to get better and put what you learn into practice incrementally every day. That means taking a little more control on every call, leaning a little more into your authority every shift until one day you take a tough call and you go, wow, okay, I can't believe I just did that. I don't even recognize myself. That is true confidence, but it only comes through flailing and struggling and then achieving in the moment, in action.

48:21So keep up the great work, stay connected to this mission of yours, and I know you're going to shine. Super proud of you for chasing this calling, man. Good luck. You know what you don't need to be shy about? Taking advantage of the crazy good deals on the products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

48:42If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All the deals, discounts, and ways to support the show are at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. You can also search for any sponsor using the AI chatbot on the website. You can also email me if you are that lazy, jordan at jordanharbinger.com. I will dig up the code for you. I will judge you, but I will dig it up for you. Thanks so much for supporting those who support the show. It really does keep us going and makes it possible to continue creating these episodes week after week.

49:14Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right, next up, and I should note, this segment is sponsored by BetterHelp. Big thanks to Hesu Jo, head of clinical operations at BetterHelp. All right, Gabe, take it away. Hi, Jordan and Gabe. Years ago, my father was traveling abroad with his girlfriend. They got into a domestic dispute in their hotel room, and his girlfriend ended up calling the police. Without going into all the details, what she accused him of doing was incredibly violent. My dad spent three days in a foreign jail, but because his girlfriend chose not to pursue charges, he was released. When my dad called to let me know what had happened, he instantly went into victim mode and blamed his girlfriend for the traumatic experience he endured behind bars.

49:55I knew in my gut that his version of events was not the full story, and I also couldn't help but notice his utter lack of compassion toward his girlfriend. The only thing he took quote-unquote responsibility for was his inability to choose his partners wisely, which again positioned him as the victim. He hasn't seen or spoken to his ex-girlfriend since the incident, despite his many efforts to contact her. This whole event brought up similar memories, which I now see through a very different lens. For example, years earlier, another one of my dad's girlfriends called the police on him. I didn't witness anything myself, and the story he told me was that they were arguing and his girlfriend lied to the police so he would be removed from the house as they were in the process of separating.

50:40I've also come to learn how emotionally and physically abusive he was with my other parent before they separated. And I have countless other examples that reinforce this pattern of manipulation, control, and violent behavior. My father is charming, meets women easily, and has incredible issues with jealousy, which I've also experienced when he feels that I've chosen my other parent over him. Without a doubt, I believe he is a textbook narcissist. I don't feel comfortable intervening in my father's life, but I was able to convince him to seek counseling after the international fiasco. Unfortunately, he ended up walking away from his one therapy session feeling that he had been too hard on himself for his failed relationship.

51:23In other words, he was even successful in manipulating his therapist. What complicates things further is that I still have a relationship with my father, which has greatly improved with the boundaries I've put in place. When things feel stable with him, I find myself wanting to compartmentalize his dark side so I can appreciate his positive qualities and enjoy spending time with him. But then I consistently come back to an overwhelming mix of frustration, hurt, and sadness for the women he's affected throughout the years. I worry about his behavior escalating, and I fear that someone he dates could get seriously hurt.

51:57What options do I have to help protect his partners? And what do I do with this information I have about my father? Signed, a concerned daughter starting to totter around her dad, the emotional marauder. Man, it's a really sad and intense story. Your father, clearly a complicated man, to put it mildly, and your relationship with him, even more complicated. Narcissistic parents are incredibly difficult to understand, difficult to manage, difficult to cope with. In many ways, you're dealing with an entirely different reality with folks like this. Your dad sounds like quite a chaotic person. To say nothing of the manipulation, the jealousy, the whole woe is me narrative, it's really tough, not to mention exhausting.

52:43But I have to say, you've come a very long way. You've learned how to draw some essential boundaries. And it sounds like that's made it possible to have a relationship with him without being as vulnerable to his behavior. That is excellent. We wanted to run your story by an expert, so we spoke with Hesu Jo, licensed marriage and family therapist and head of clinical operations at BetterHelp, the world's largest online therapy service. You've heard of them. They sponsor the show. And the first thing Hesu said, your dad, he is who he is, warts and all. And as hard as this is to accept, you are not going to be able to change him.

53:17And I think you already know that, but I also get the sense that you're in the process of fully coming to terms with what this really means. If your dad is gonna change, it'll be because he wants to change. And probably because he has the support that he needs, ideally a really good therapist, one who won't let him off the hook too easily, who can help him confront these parts of himself that are probably very uncomfortable and threatening for him to acknowledge. But that's his work to do, not yours, which might be why you're now wondering how to protect his girlfriends. Because if you can't change the man, you probably feel compelled to protect the women in his life.

53:55And I appreciate that impulse that says a lot about you. But Hesu also helped us see that you're not going to be able to protect every single woman your dad gets involved with. You can't chaperone them on every date. You don't live with your dad and his partners. You can't go on every vacation with them. You might not even know about some of these women. So realistically, there's not much more you can do to protect them in the moment. I mean, look, if you're ever on a trip with your dad and one of his girlfriends and they get into a serious physical altercation at the hotel and someone's in danger, yeah, of course, you pick up the phone, you call 911.

54:31I'm not saying you don't intervene if you're right there. But I'm guessing that scenario is not going to happen very often when you're around. And if you did call the police, like, hey, just wanted to give you a heads up. My dad's kind of a narcissist. He has a history of being maybe probably abusive. I'm worried something might happen with his new girlfriend in the future. Sadly, the police are not going to do anything about that. And even if they could, there's no guarantee that they're going to show up in time or follow up. And they obviously can't stop any of these women from continuing to see your dad.

55:02And I know that's a very distressing thought because your dad obviously has a real pattern of disturbing behavior. He's already been in jail because of this, right? You feel genuinely scared for these women. You feel helpless. You want to intervene before the next bad thing happens. But, you know, I also wonder if she feels partly responsible. for her dad. Like, this is my dad. Like, my dad is kind of a monster sometimes, and it's partly on me to clean up his mess to prevent him from hurting other people. Who, by the way, and I think this is a meaningful parallel, are also women. Yes, yes, which is perfectly understandable.

55:41But part of me wonders, Hesu picked up on this too, whether this sense of responsibility for your dad might be one of the complicated emotions that come out of having a relationship with a narcissistic parent. because oftentimes with narcissistic parents, children end up feeling like extensions of them, right? Or pawns in their game or overly loyal to them or just generally responsible for managing their chaos. And so it would make a lot of sense if you looked at the situation and you thought, man, I have some serious reservations about my dad, but I also kind of identify with him in certain ways and I care for him and he makes me want to care for him, but also I'm kind of scared of him and also sort of ashamed of him.

56:27And so it's my responsibility basically to protect other people who enter his life. And to take that idea a step further, I also wonder if protecting these women, to Jordan's point, might also be a way to protect yourself, to sort of work something out about your dad through these other women and maybe to find some agency in a situation where you feel pretty powerless. Like you said, you don't feel comfortable intervening in your father's life, but here you are wondering how you might intervene in his life, but through these other people. I know that's kind of an intense theory to just throw out there.

57:05I'll let you decide for yourself if that fits, but I do think it's worth exploring. So in Hesu's view, the real question here is what kind of relationship you want with your dad and what the terms of that relationship should be. And let's just acknowledge that is very confusing because, like you said, these boundaries have really helped. And when he's stable, you want to just compartmentalize his dark side and enjoy spending time with him, which I totally get. At the same time, I can see why that might add to your sense of confusion and frustration with him, knowing that your dad has these two very different sides to his personality and not always knowing which one is the real him.

57:44Right. Is he narcissistic or is he kind? Is he the aggressor? Is he the victim? Is he both? Who's freaking coming to brunch today? Exactly. Those are very complicated questions, and they can make you feel a little overwhelmed sometimes. You know, you might spend your whole life reconciling those different parts of your father, and you might have to calibrate your boundaries with him based on which ones he leads with. Ah, for sure. And man, that's got to be a confusing dance. Very. So in Hesu's view, the best strategy you can pursue going forward is to double down on the boundaries and to continue engaging with the support that helped you create those boundaries, which I'm guessing was some pretty solid therapy because ultimately they're your best tool in a parental relationship like this.

58:30And that'll help protect you when your dad becomes chaotic or tries to rope you into his BS or co-opt you into the victim narratives. That's when you can go, okay, dad's doing his dad thing. I've seen this many times before, time to pull back a little bit. And maybe that means putting some limits around how much you talk, what you talk about, how involved you become in his life. Maybe it means not indulging him when he starts spinning a victim story. Maybe it means noticing when that sense of responsibility for your dad starts to creep in, not taking on his stuff as your own. That's, I think, one of the most important lines to keep an eye on.

59:07For sure. And hey, if it feels appropriate, maybe it means speaking up and pushing back sometimes. Like if your dad tells you that his girlfriend was the one who provoked him and she lied or whatever, maybe you go, look, I'm sorry to say this, dad, but I just don't share your view here. I understand that she set you off, but you have a pattern here. You've done this before. And I just I'm not going to sit here and endorse this story that you're the victim. And just to be very clear, I'm not saying you have to say that to your dad. I'm just saying that it's an option. And it is a version of a more explicit boundary you could work up to if you ever need.

59:42Agree, Gabe. So I hope that gives you some more clarity about your dad. As Hesu put it to us, you have to live with an interesting contradiction here, a sort of dialectic, which I had to look up in the dictionary to make sure I knew what she was talking about. But the dialectic is this. I love my dad and he can be a source of pain. I care about him and he's problematic. To quote Hesu again, those two facts can exist in the same universe. You can hold these two ideas in your head at the same time. But it can also be really hard because it requires a lot of strength and comfort with essentially ambiguity.

1:00:18Yeah, and also it requires a willingness to feel the grief of being in relationship with a very flawed parent, right? Having to acknowledge all of them, not just the convenient parts. and accepting that that might mean you two won't always be as close as you wish you could be, which is no small thing. Exactly. And look, we're not saying you have to do that, but as you make room for more and more of your dad's contradictions and adjust your relationship accordingly, it's also going to increase your capacity for these important qualities in you, too. And that's the strange gift of having a difficult parent like this.

1:00:54What happens outside of your relationship with him, for the most part, That's his business. That's his girlfriend's business. And that's their work to do. So keep up the great work. We're sending you a big hug. And we're wishing you all the best with your dad. This segment was sponsored by BetterHelp. Big thanks again to Hesu Jo, head of clinical operations at BetterHelp. Go to betterhelp.com slash Jordan to help support the show and get started. Hesu Jo's input is general psychological information based on research and clinical experience. It's intended to be general and informational in nature.

1:01:21It does not represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance. as whose feedback is in response to a written question and therefore there are likely other unknown considerations given the limited context. Any personal opinions about a writer's life choices as well as any action-oriented advice come solely from the show. Also, just because you might hear something on the show that sounds similar to what you're experiencing, beware of self-diagnosis. Diagnosis is not required to find relief and you'll want to find a qualified professional to assess and explore diagnoses if that's important to you.

1:01:48If you or your partner are in crisis and uncertain about whether you can maintain safety, reach out for support. Crisis hotlines, local authorities, have a safety plan and that can be done with a therapist too. I wanted to talk about an interesting thing that's been happening over the last month or so, which is listeners unsubscribing from the podcast after our episodes, critiquing topics like crystal healing or acupuncture or even lawns. Somebody got so upset at lawns and how do I know? Because they send me a message, right? I didn't think lawns was gonna be a hot button issue, but apparently even talking about grass can piss people off these days.

1:02:19What a time to be alive, eh? But I've been getting a bunch of these letters and reviews lately. A woman who owns a crystal store sent me an angry email after our skeptical Sunday on astrology. A healer who's really into Eastern medicine tore me a new one for our skeptical Sunday on Ayurveda. And then there were the lawn people, stuff like that. Now, look, I've made peace with this. I know the values of this show don't speak to everyone. No show can or should. And I knew when I started doing skeptical Sunday that if we were taking on these topics and being funny with it, because it's a different vibe of those shows, that we were gonna ruffle some feathers and potentially lose some folks.

1:02:58I don't enjoy losing listeners, but I also accept it. I'm not gonna change the show for those people. What I can't quite wrap my head around, though, is how people come to that conclusion and why they cling to their ideas so rigidly. Because the way I see it, if you're open-minded about something working, great, you should always be open-minded. But at the same time, you have to be open-minded about something not working, even if you've already decided that it does. Being open-minded has to cut both ways. You have to be willing to be persuaded that something is right or wrong at any time that you hold a belief.

1:03:33You can't just decide you have a belief, I've evaluated it, and then 30 years later, you still believe it. You have to always have those strong opinions but hold them weakly. You have to always be able to be persuaded of the opposite belief. Also, I always find it funny when people enjoy Skeptical Sunday when it's about something they're not involved in, but then they absolutely just get outraged when we attack their personal ideology or pet pseudoscience. Call me crazy, but you can't sit here and enjoy the show when I skewer flat earthers and then flip your damn lid when I tell you that astrology is bullshit.

1:04:06I just find that contradiction very immature and counterproductive. But look, I don't mind when people disagree with me. If somebody absolutely buys into, I don't know, Ayurveda and crystal healing and they disagree with my sources, fine, I'm not sweating it. if they stick with the show because they still get something out of the rest of the episodes, I think that's fantastic. I actually get a lot of emails like that too, some variation of, love the show, Jordan, but you have your head in your ass when it comes to Ayurveda. This is okay. This is fine. I still love you. I'm still glad you're listening.

1:04:36I'm glad you're writing in even though you're pissed off at the time. It's all good. There are tons of places where smart people get information that they might not always agree with, and they can decide for themselves what to take away from that. I never demand that every listener buy into everything they hear on the show from our guests or from myself. But tuning out that source because it pisses you off or makes you uncomfortable or hurts your feelings, which is exactly what these emails are almost always about, that is a great way to remain stuck in your echo chamber. There's a parallel here with what I shared a month or so ago about outrage, about why people get super pissed off about very specific things and they want to work out their ish through us, right?

1:05:16They're working something out through us. Nine times out of 10, those objections, they're not about arguments. They're about people's triggers. I'm sorry if you own a crystal shop in Sedona, Arizona, and now you're faced with the idea that maybe you're selling rocks and not mystical, magical cures for irritable bowel syndrome or whatever. I'm not saying that's fun to hear, but don't shoot the messenger. Also, these folks are often angry that we don't just critique their belief, we have a little laugh about it, which, look, fair enough. Some people say, like, you're acting like a junior high school jerk.

1:05:49But if you can't take a joke, maybe don't base your life choices on whether or not Mercury's in retrograde, okay? If a joke triggers you that much, that might just be a reason to consider the nature of the thing that you believe in. It sounds a lot like a religious or culty belief to me, if you can't make fun of it at all. Or at a minimum, to shift your relationship with that belief a little bit, not having quite so much of your identity or sense of self wrapped up in it. Going back to that Sarah and Nippy concept from question one here on the show. And by the way, if there's anyone who can take a freaking joke about the way they live their life or pay their rent, it's going to be a guy who makes his living doing interviews and dishing out lukewarm advice in his underwear, okay?

1:06:27So I hold myself to this standard too. But look, I do get where these responses come from. I'm killing your sacred cow, and then I'm barbecuing it and eating it in front of you. That is not fun. But it doesn't mean I'm wrong, and it doesn't mean that you're right. That's why we bring science to the conversation. Rigorous, data-driven, peer-reviewed, repeatable science. That's the standard we hold this stuff to, even as armchair scientists. And it's one of the values of this show. that's the only way we get to some type of an objective truth. And I realize the irony of saying all this on the same episode where we had to address a guest's data controversy.

1:07:09But again, the Dr. Ariely stuff is a great reminder of the importance of rigor in the first place. And not to get all high and mighty about this, but part of the skill set of a critical thinker is being able to take in information from a source, even if you disagree with it at first, and also to not reject that source completely because you're triggered by one piece of information. And I just wanted to share that with you because this science-based approach to the topics we tackle, especially on Skeptical Sunday, it's kind of part of the DNA of the show. And if anyone listening is bothered by something we say, I want them to know it's not because I take pleasure in mocking people or ideas, it's because I'm looking for the truth within the noise, within the story, and within the myth.

1:07:52And staying open to alternative ideas, even and especially when you disagree, is a value that is sorely lacking in this world today. And by the way, so many of you guys do exactly that. Far more than the people who unsubscribe. Some of my favorite emails are the ones that go, I couldn't disagree with you more about religion or health or politics, but you challenge me to think about my beliefs, so you keep me from getting stuck in my filter bubble, and I still love the rest of the show. I get those messages all the time, and I really respect that. I really appreciate that. And yes, we might get things wrong sometimes, but when we do, it's because it's impossible to cover every single angle of a topic.

1:08:31And while we do good research, we are not scientists ourselves, we just consult experts, but we're not just making stuff up out of thin air, nor are we starting with a conclusion in mind and then setting out to prove it when we tackle these topics. Anyway, I heard a quote recently that I loved, and I think it explains a lot of this phenomenon and why it matters so much. The truth has a ceiling, but the sky's the limit for lies. That is a great guiding principle for how we put out and consume information. And obviously, that's the one I'm gonna keep following. Hope you all enjoyed that. I wanna thank everybody who wrote in this week and everybody who listened.

1:09:04Thank you so much. Go back and check out the Ben Lamb episode if you haven't yet. No Thursday episode because I'm kinda sorta on vacation, but we still managed to deliver Feedback Friday, of course. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust. I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in our six-minute networking course. It's 100 % free. It's 0 % gross and 0 % schmoozy. You can find it on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com slash course. Takes a few minutes a day. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago.

1:09:32My life would have been, well, hopefully, as good as it is now, maybe even better. Dig the well before you get thirsty. Build relationships before you need them. Again, the course is free. Nothing tricky there. jordanharbinger.com slash course. And on that note, I'm going to the beach. You're welcome for that high-touch communication. Real window into my life here. If you haven't signed up yet, check out our recently relaunched newsletter for the show. It's called We Bit Wiser. It's really me writing it. And I'm not gonna pretend that I'm talking to you. I will respond if you respond to me. Unless you send me some weird rant.

1:10:03There's a lot of people in there who send me like astrological signs and stuff about Bitcoin. I don't know what to do with those. That's all. But if you wanna keep up with the wisdom from our 900 plus episodes and apply it to your life, I invite you to come check it out. Sign up at jordanharbinger.com slash news. Show notes and transcripts on the website at jordanharbinger.com. advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show at jordanharbinger.com slash deals or ask the AI chatbot on the website. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn.

1:10:31You can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer but not your lawyer. do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Dr. Kodum's input is general psychological information based on research and clinical experience. It's intended to be general and informational in nature, and it does not represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance.

1:11:04You can learn more about Dr. Kodum and his practice at copepsychology.com. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love, and if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show with the go-to person to help negotiate a hostage situation in Syria when no other intelligence agency would help. When you have a hostage negotiation, especially in a war zone, the hardest thing to do is to actually figure out who the hostage takers are, and the rumors are off the charts.

1:11:39Proof of life is getting that authentication, that you're talking with the people who actually have the person and you want to know, of course, that the person's still alive. You ask them for some question or some nickname, something that no one would be able to know. And if they can't come back with that answer, you walk away. The person I had to flag down and find who held this Westerner hostage was probably the biggest Captagon dealer in the country. And they often use the same distribution routes for the Captagon as they do for human trafficking. So the same people who take little girls from villages and send them to the Gulf, to Dubai, to Riyadh in Saudi Arabia, to other places there, they fill also stomachs of the girls with drugs and use them as couriers while also shipping them as the product itself.

1:12:24The first thing you have to do is tell the parents to stop doing something that they want to do and that every schmuck under the sun is telling them to do, which is to seek public support, right? to get public statements, to do Facebook campaigns. The Secretary of State say how we're not going to leave a stone unturned until this awful act is being brought to justice. What just happens with that is your price went up before you even started a negotiation. You do not want to drive up the perceived value of the hostage. Sometimes people are taken hostage just for the shock value of executing them.

1:12:57What you're going to do with the campaign that you're doing right now is going to get your child or your spouse killed. How is pissing off the people who hold that person's life in their hands helping you? By the time I get involved, it's usually too late. To learn all about the nuances of negotiating with criminals and human traffickers, check out episode 617 of The Jordan Harbinger Show. Again, special thanks to Nissan for sponsoring this episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show. This episode is sponsored in part by The Gist Podcast. If you're looking for a news podcast that is smart, unfiltered, and doesn't just echo whatever side you already agree with, check out The Gist with my friend Mike Peska.

1:13:36Mike's been doing this longer than just about anyone. It's actually the longest-running daily news podcast. It's earned that spot on Apple's top charts for a reason. Each episode's around 30 minutes, so it's perfect for your commute or while you're making breakfast. It's always packed with sharp, thought-provoking takes. What I love about The Gist is that it's not stuck in a partisan box. Mike, he's a really smart dude. He digs into real questions, the kind that most shows avoid because they don't fit neatly into a political lane. He'll challenge the right. He keeps the left honest. He dives into stuff like the New York City mayoral race, that whole cluster, and the chaos of sports betting, or even whether talking to your plants actually does anything.

1:14:08He's an award-winning journalist. He's not some schmo like me who's totally unqualified. You've probably seen his work in the Atlantic, the Free Press, the Washington Post. He's got that rare mix of wit, skepticism, and depth that makes even heavy topics fun to listen to. And he's a great dinner guest, just saying. So if you want your daily news with more brains and less noise, check out The Gist with Mike Peska every weekday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is sponsored in part by Everything Everywhere Daily. You've heard the phrase, learn something new every day. Sounds nice, but do you actively do it?

1:14:36That's where Everything Everywhere Daily comes in. This podcast makes it effortless. Just 10 minutes a day, you'll walk away with a fascinating fact, a slice of history, a science gem. It's no wonder the show has climbed up to the top as the number one history podcast. It covers history, science, technology, geography, and stories of remarkable people, always in a way that keeps you hooked. Not sure where to jump in? start with these favorites. The eruption of Krakatoa, nature's fury in one of the deadliest volcanic events ever recorded, or the spice trade, how a handful of spices changed the course of global history.

1:15:04If you want to make learning effortless and fun, check out everything everywhere daily. It's quick, fascinating, and a perfect way to stay curious. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts.