917: Friendship Friction Due to Cocaine Addiction | Feedback Friday

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24:18All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. And you can search for any sponsor using the AI chatbot on the website as well. Or email, if you're so lazy, you can't find it, email me jordan at jordanharbinger.com. I'll dig up the code for you. It's that important that you support those who support us. All right, back to Feedback Friday. All right, next up. Hey guys, I'm a 30-year-old woman and graduated with a bachelor's degree a couple years ago. I busted my butt in school to network and make connections and ended up getting a job with an internationally acclaimed person in the community.

24:56Our work together was flawless. Awesome. Love the hustle. Well done. But I ended up working for his partner more than him, and she was horrible to work with. I'm a very strong-willed woman, and long story short, she saw me as competition and nitpicked everything I did until I quit. This conflict ended up tarnishing the relationship that I built with the original guy, which hit me really hard. Oh, yeah, that sucks. That sounds like a tough situation. And Gabe, I'm making note of I'm a strong-willed woman. Not that that can't be a great quality, but it could also be something else. So let's come back to that.

25:33About a year ago, I joined a new employer. She really wants me to work for her full time, but I'm starting to see similar issues in this new workplace. A lack of trust, finger pointing at me when things go wrong, and so on. This new boss has also been labeled hard to handle by many people. Interesting. So this could be a total coincidence, or it could be a bit of a pattern. And it's always good to notice when situations are echoing earlier ones. But again, let's see where this goes. I also have strong imposter syndrome, as my new boss has lived an extremely privileged life while I grew up in the sticks and am the only person in my family to go to college.

26:11For example, she'll casually bring up month-long trips to Japan that her dad took her on when she was younger, like it was a super normal thing. Ah, okay, interesting. So she's kind of pushing your buttons in a few ways. Yeah, she has a, it sounds like she has a bit of a pressure point around privilege, which, I mean, I can appreciate that. I grew up around that. I actually love how self-aware she is about that. We should circle back to this too. Yeah, that's nice. She's already parsing what's her stuff versus what her boss's stuff might be, but their dynamic is tricky. It's hard to know exactly who is causing the friction here.

26:42I'm still dealing with PTSD from my previous job, so the mix is making my anxiety crazy. It's very hard to get an opportunity in my field, so I'm reluctant to give up the position, but I also don't want to start another passive-aggressive war and potentially compromise my reputation. I've worked with people for 12-plus years and have never had any issues. My peers and co-workers have validated that I'm not a problematic employee. I'm actually one of the hardest workers that they've seen. Well, that's really good data, so good on you for seeking it out. It's clear that you're a hard worker. Just look at how you landed this job.

27:16But that doesn't mean you're not participating in these tough dynamics so that you don't have room to grow. So let's make room for both of those things here. I now have a potential job opportunity available, but that would mean moving to the other side of the country and creating a long-distance relationship and the cost of living there is outrageous. Should I just stick with this job and deal with all of the icks? Or should I move on to the next thing? How do I stop letting our social differences affect my relationship with my boss? Am I just destined to work for crappy bosses? How do I avoid working for people like this in the future?

27:52Signed, at a loss about this burdensome boss. Right. Well, this is a very interesting situation, and I understand why it's confusing. So first off, working for a difficult boss is never easy, and it's not always your fault. And personalities like these can bring out some tough responses in us, even when we're good employees, even when we're pretty low drama. So yeah, I'm sorry you found yourself working for not one, but two difficult people. But in another way, I'm kind of happy you did because I think these experiences can teach you a lot about yourself and about how you respond to difficult people and also about what kind of career and workplace you do want, which that's what a lot of your 20s are about.

28:32So let's start by talking about whether this is a coincidence or a pattern. Like I said, it's totally possible that you ended up with two difficult bosses. It happens. But the fact that it's happened twice, that does seem meaningful to me. Now, noticing a pattern doesn't necessarily mean this is all your fault or that you've done something wrong. This isn't about blaming you or anything. It's just about appreciating how these situations develop. Also, there could be a few explanations for this pattern. Maybe you've gravitated towards a field where difficult personalities dominate. And when I was in law, and my friends were all investment bankers, they worked with a lot more jerks than you might run into if you worked as a literally anything else.

29:15So you were in consulting, Gabe, like you know that sometimes, wow, there's a lot of type A people in this office and the boss is like, I literally only hire people who are so anal that no one else can stand them. That's what I'm looking for. That's right. Specific jobs have tough bosses or, and this is the one I'd pay the most attention to, maybe you've responded to these difficult bosses in a way that made them even more difficult or created a tough dynamic. That's also very common. I also have to say, I find it interesting that the two difficult bosses she's had are women. Again, could be a total coincidence, but...

29:49Yeah, I mean, look, she only has two data points here, just like we do, so it's a small sample. Yeah, totally fair. But the one boss she got along with really well was a man. And when her relationship with his partner went south, she said that it hit her really hard. So I think that's interesting, too. It is. Yeah, I think you're right. And when she said that she's a strong-willed woman, I kind of poked a little fun at her for that. I'm just thinking about how that quality might intersect with other potentially strong-willed women. So I could see that being a bit of a powder keg in an office, depending on the personalities involved.

30:20Also, I'm very curious to know what strong-willed actually means, right? Like, does it mean that you are super hardworking and driven and confident about what you want? Or does it mean, you know, a little domineering, a little inflexible, maybe kind of prickly sometimes? It could go either way. Right. And hey, maybe it's both, right? All leadership qualities have a sort of shadow side where it's a virtue in one way, but it can be an Achilles heel in another. And I do think these are all meaningful pieces of information, though. And so these are my first couple of questions for you, ones I would really sit with and explore.

30:54Don't answer them while we're asking them on the show. Just, you know, maybe have a thought over this. First off, have I gravitated to difficult bosses in some way or have I made them more difficult in the way that I relate to them? Next, do I engage with men and women differently? Is there something about women that tends to lead to more conflict? And if so, is this strong-willed quality playing a role in these interactions? And if so, how? I would really take some time to replay some of the moments where you experienced conflict or friction or just a general anxiety with these bosses and really break down those interactions.

31:33For example, what did they say or do that set you off? Where did it hit a nerve? Or where did it make you kind of uneasy? And then how did you respond, both in the moment and then later on down the line? What are these people activating in you? And what are you, in turn, maybe activating in them? For example, and I'm just going to run with the story you shared to illustrate the point. If your boss gives you feedback on a project, and then you kind of bristle and go, well, actually, I think we should do it this way. and then they note you to death because they want things a very specific way and then of course the next time you guys interact, you're kind of icy, maybe you're a little aloof because you're annoyed that you got 74 points of feedback but then you really still have a good relationship with her business partner and then she perceives you as competition and then you pull away more because you're defending yourself or you've turned against her and then she treats you even worse as a result, dot, dot, dot, now it's a toxic workplace and you're miserable and you can see how this subtle dance between an employee and a boss can really, it can degrade a relationship.

32:35This is the math of a dynamic. And it's so useful to parse this stuff because even when the other person is really a top shelf a-hole or a power hungry competitive witch or whatever, there are always two people in a relationship and we're always contributing to things in our own way, usually unconsciously, even if we're not the primary aggressors. Yeah, nice, great advice, Jordan. So to answer your question, No, you're not destined to work with crappy bosses forever, but the best way to break that sense of destiny, the feeling that these situations are just going to keep repeating themselves, is to do this kind of work and rewrite this stuff in the way that Jordan is encouraging you to do.

33:14The other piece of this that is also partly yours is the stuff around privilege. Yes, okay, I'm glad you're coming back to that. I think that's a really important element as well. So here's this boss. She's banging on about her amazing summers in Kyoto or whatever. her, you know, her luxurious upbringing. She's kind of oblivious to how she comes across, I think. And then there's our friend here who grew up in a very different environment. She's the first in her family to go to college and she's listening to all of that. And she's going, oh, cool. Must have been nice. You know, like, also, does this mean I don't belong here?

33:49Like, does this mean I don't deserve this? I find the imposter syndrome conclusion super interesting because that's, there's got to be a few filters in her to make her think like, oh, maybe I'm a fraud. I mean, I get it. Someone's like, oh, you don't have a collection of silk kimonos from Imperial Japan. Okay. Awkward. Sure. It could be a little bit much at times, I'm sure. It's a very interesting question. Whose fault, quote unquote, fault is it that she has that feeling? Is it her boss's fault for being tone deaf and unselfaware and kind of braggy? Or is it our friend's fault for being sensitive to this difference and for having this chip on her shoulder and believing that she doesn't belong if she didn't have the same experiences as this person?

34:29The answer, I think, is it's both of their faults, but fault isn't really the right word because I don't think any of this is intentional or even malicious. This is just what happens when two very different human beings get together and their stuff intersects in all of these interesting ways. So about this privilege thing, let's just appreciate that you do have a little bit of a chip on your shoulder, which is very normal. And in a way, it's born from the amazing fact that you were the first in your family to achieve at this level. And you worked really hard to get here. Which, by the way, Gabe, that is great evidence that she is not an imposter.

35:05I think that's quite the opposite, right? She worked so hard to get where she is without the advantages that that boss may have had. That is exactly right. And that would be a wonderful thing to remind herself when the imposter syndrome starts to kick in, that somebody else's advantages don't actually have any bearing on her value or her right to be where she is. I know imposterism is a complex thing. It can come from a lot of different places, but that is a really great start. But anyway, just to say, this pressure point around privilege, that is yours to work through. Yes, your boss is being kind of obtuse.

35:37She's maybe not being very thoughtful when she talks about summers in Japan with daddy. But like Jordan said a moment ago, the way you hear that, the way you process that is being informed by your life experiences. your feelings and your values. And that's why it ends up hurting the way it does sometimes, which might be one more way that you're bringing something to these tricky dynamics with these bosses. It's fascinating, isn't it? So much goes into these interactions, we often don't even realize it. Bottom line, I would explore all this stuff for a while, a month at least, maybe even a few months before you decide whether to jump ship here.

36:11Maybe the answer is to find a new job with a better boss. And if so, more power to you. And these bad bosses will just be great learning experiences. Hey, that's fair. But I do think there's an opportunity to learn and grow here. And these annoying bosses are helping you do that in their own way. Slash, they're also teaching you how to spot the signs of a crappy boss from the jump, which is also a great skill for next time. I would also encourage you to check out the articles and deep dives Gabe and I did on imposter syndrome and how to stop comparing yourself to other people. Those are going to be money for you right now.

36:41We'll link to those in the show notes as well. And look, you're a real asset and a very impressive person. And yes, that might rub certain people the wrong way sometimes, and that's their stuff. But it also doesn't mean you don't have some room to grow in the way that you manage people like that. So hang in there. Whether you stick around or you move on, this period is going to be a really great education for you, and you'll take these insights into the rest of your career. Good luck. You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Use descriptive subject lines.

37:11That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your neighbors are eavesdropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or your mother-in-law is being catfished by an AI text bot pretending to be a famous actor, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. Okay, what's next? Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm 41 years old and I've been estranged from my older sister and her family for about 15 years. This was her choice and a total mystery to my side of the family.

37:45As far as I know, there was no trauma or inciting incident for this. It's possible that something horrific happened when I was too little to know, but I doubt it. We had a pretty typical privileged suburban childhood. Interesting. Yeah, you never know, right? Something bad could have happened and you have no idea because she won't talk about it? Although why would that mean she would need to cut you off? That's unclear. Yeah, just nothing happened and she's kind of a kook. Then one day she moved to Vermont with her husband, who's honestly kind of a weirdo. There you go. Started having babies, six of them in nine years, and told us that she didn't want us influencing her children.

38:24Okay. Well, now I'm getting kook vibes here. I'm getting culty kook vibes. Moving to Vermont doesn't help that, does it? Yeah, I didn't mean to feed the stereotype, but moving to Vermont, look, I hear it's absolutely lovely, it's peaceful, the fall foliage, the maple syrup, next level. But isn't Vermont also the state you move to when you want to like live off the grid and grow your own apples or whatever, possibly with a proto cult that you've joined with your husband, who's a weirdo. I always forget it's either Vermont or New Hampshire. Right. New Hampshire. That's where Walter White went at the end of Breaking Bad, right?

38:54For good reason. Yeah. I mean, it has that reputation. The license plate of New Hampshire is live free or die, which I think they included in Breaking Bad. So that kind of tells you everything you need to know. What's Vermont's license plate? Do you know? I have no, let me look it up right now. Googling, uh, green mountain state. Okay. So that's not as funny. I was hoping it was like, don't tread on me and my 13 children or stay out of my underground bunker or something, something that would apply directly to this letter. Can you imagine if that was actually the license plate? Like live uninfluenced or die from basic human contact.

39:25Yeah. There's a tagline. So, all right, let's see what this goes. I've tried to casually keep in touch over the years, but she made it clear that she didn't want any communication. This was very confusing and painful, especially since they're the only grandchildren in the family. But we backed off, and I decided that once the kids were adults, I would try to get in touch in case they were curious about their family or could use some different adults in their lives. My oldest nephews are now in their early 20s, and I've been attempting to look them up. I don't use any social media, and I haven't had any luck finding them online.

39:59A buddy of mine suggested trying Venmo, as people tend to use their real names there, and she was right. I found the two oldest kids. Ooh. Interesting. That's a good one. I never thought of that. I am definitely adding that to my black bag of Dark Jordan tricks, right? Like, oh, they vanished. Oh, yeah? Well, do they get money online? Try this app that people don't think about when they put their personal information into it. But now I'm not sure how to proceed. If it were Facebook or Twitter, it wouldn't be unheard of to send a message out of the blue. My friend suggested sending them a few cents along with a private message, but that seems weird and potentially invasive to me.

40:36It's also kind of hilarious. Nothing says, I want to get back into your life like a payment for 35 cents followed by 17 burrito emojis. The first three kids definitely know about me and my family because before contact was lost, my sister had my picture on the fridge and talked about me. That's an interesting detail. so she doesn't have anything against our friend. There's something else happened here. I don't understand it. Letter goes on. I have a dummy Facebook account for lurking purposes, so conceivably they could contact me if they wanted, but I have no idea what their mother told them about why she cut off the entire family.

41:12In a way, I have nothing to lose if they don't respond, but I just feel like this is such an awkward way to introduce myself. I've considered a private detective, but that seems too extreme. What do you think? Do you have any other ideas? Is Venmo really the appropriate place to spring long-lost relatives on a kid? Signed, a nonchalant aunt seeking a detente without trying to haunt, taunt, or flaunt the fact that she'd be a killer confidant. Oh, God. All right, Biggie Smalls, take it easy. This is Feedback Friday, not a rap battle. Stop hating on my flow, bro. Right on, Gabe. There's vomit on your sweater already.

41:50Mom's vegan tofu cauliflower noodle spaghetti. So interesting question. That was great. What can I say? You inspire me. So interesting question. First of all, I think it's totally fair game to reach out and see if your older nephews, the ones in their 20s, if they're open to talking. I agree. It might be nice for them to know their family, to have some other adults in their life. Their mom might not appreciate it, but they're grown up now. And since you didn't do anything to her, I think reaching out to them by any method is cool, honestly. But yeah, Venmo, not exactly the ideal place to rekindle a broken relationship.

42:24But if it's all you have, go for it. You have nothing to lose except for, you know, one tenth of a game of skee-ball you could play with your coke-addled friend at Chuck E. Cheese. Wow. What a callback. Top shelf. Loved it. Chef's kiss. The only challenge I see here is that Venmo is a character limit. I think it's probably 300 characters because, you know, it's for payments, not for family reunions. so it might be hard to articulate who you are and why you're reaching out and what you're hoping to achieve also I'm not sure if they can even reply I doubt they can so you'd have to include contact info in the message which they might maybe Venmo blocks that or doesn't allow that I'm not even sure either way that's also going to take up available characters yeah plus don't forget you have to leave room for those burrito emoji that is true say that weren't you yeah I was I was going to lean into the burrito emojis.

43:14You cannot, after the burritos, that's like 270 characters. So you're going to have to be really efficient here. And if you can't share a meaningful letter, they might get your 10 cents and be like, okay, I'm not sure how to respond to this. Okay, so let's imagine this. You have 300 characters. What would she actually say? I think it would be something like, hey, it's your aunt Eileen or whatever. Sorry to message you here, but it's the only way I have to reach you. you can even leave that out actually because you don't need that. I know we haven't talked in a long time. I would love to hear how you're doing.

43:46I would love to be in touch. Miss you. Love you. Here's my number. Sorry you live in an underground bunker in Vermont. Hope it's not a cult situation. That's got to be about 300 characters and I think that pretty much covers the basics. Honestly, I'm not hating the Venmo idea. It's creative for sure. They'll get it. I know. It's kind of funny. It's kind of funny. It is funny. And if it works, you'll have a good story to tell. I found my estranged nephews on the app where you, you know, pay your friends for your share of the strippers and cocaine at the bachelor party? I mean, pretty much right.

44:16It's on the same app where you pay the boyfriend of the train wreck from question one with the snowman emoji. Something poetic about that. I don't know what it just is. I'm sure your nephews would be lucky to have you in their lives. And if their mom is really that nutty and there's no good reason she cut you off, then yeah, you all deserve to have a relationship, just be prepared for any number of responses. Positive engagement, great. Radio silence, eh. A crazy letter from your sister yelling at you for trying to influence her kids via the world's easiest payment platform, trademark. Who knows what'll happen, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth trying, and if it works, it'll be awesome.

44:52And good luck. Gabe, I find it interesting that, again, there's this theme here of how can I be there for the kids of a questionable parent or two. Right. It's so tough. The lines are confusing. This is different from question one because these nephews are adults now, so they can choose to reach out or they can choose to accept her invitation to talk on their own. But staying close to children who are growing up in a dodgy environment or a straight up dangerous environment, that's really commendable. But of course, it's also sad because you have to accept the limits of your influence in another family's drama.

45:25All these kids in both stories are so lucky to have another adult looking out for them. But the reality is there's only so much you can do for other people. And that's important to remember too. You know, Gabe, when they said the husband's a weirdo, there were no other details there, but I'm just getting sister married a guy is a little bit weird. And then he became culty with whatever religious thing and then started having kids. And then his parents were probably like, they're into that. And it's like, oh, you can't associate with people aren't going to be into that. And sister's like, well, my parents and family aren't into that.

45:58And they're like, oh, it's going to be bad for them if they're not also part of our weird, super religious movement or whatever. Because why else would you be like, it's better for my kids to grow up with only one set of grandparents and never see their aunts and uncles on mom's side. That just screams cult, whether it's an organized religion or not. And it might not even be religious. It might just be, we want to live on our own terms and we don't want other people meddling in our business. But it would explain the timeline also because she said she had her photo up on the fridge for a few years.

46:28So there was like a period of time where she did want to be close to her family. The only thing that changed is that she married this guy. So I think you're right. This guy's probably playing a huge role in her life in all of this. Scary. I would love to hear if the nephews actually reach out. I'm going to go ahead and guess homeschooled and they're either super enrolled in whatever crazy kooky ideas they got from their dad and mom now, or maybe the one that responds is like, yeah, I don't talk to my parents anymore because they raised us in homeschool and used to beat us with belts when we didn't memorize verses from the Old Testament or whatever.

47:05I mean, I'm just, you know, you never know what this kind of stuff is. I'm so curious right now. You know, it's a great way to win over your estranged family members, Gabriel. The amazing products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by The Gist Podcast. If you're looking for a news podcast that is smart, unfiltered, and doesn't just echo whatever side you already agree with, check out the gist with my friend Mike Peska. Mike's been doing this longer than just about anyone. It's actually the longest running daily news podcast. It's earned that spot on Apple's top charts for a reason.

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48:00He's not some schmo like me who's totally unqualified. You've probably seen his work in the Atlantic, the Free Press, the Washington Post. He's got that rare mix of wit, skepticism, and depth that makes even heavy topics fun to listen to. And he's a great dinner guest, just saying. So if you want your daily news with more brains and less noise, check out The Gist with Mike Peska every weekday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Shopify's point-of-sale system helps you sell at every stage of your business. Need a fast and secure way to take payments in person? We've got you covered. How about card readers you can rely on anywhere you sell?

48:33Thanks. Have a good one. Yep, that too. Want one place to manage all your online and in-person sales? That's kind of our thing. Wherever you sell, businesses that grow, grow with Shopify. Sign up for your$1 a month trial at shopify.com slash listen. Shopify.com slash listen. Right back. If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. And you can search for any sponsor using the AI chat bot on the website as well, or email.

49:10If you're so lazy, you can't find it. Email me jordan at jordanharbinger.com. I'll dig up the code for you. It's that important that you support those who support us. All right, back to Feedback Friday. What's next? Hey, Jordan and Gabe. My wife and I are good at conversing with strangers and close friends, but we find it challenging to talk to people we've only met a few times and remember details about their lives. We've tried note-taking, but that's not always practical, especially during unexpected encounters like running into a fellow parent at the grocery store. How can we remember or tactfully re-ask questions about things we should already know, like their names or whether they have children, stuff like that.

49:51How do you handle those situations? Signed, finding our feet as we try to remember these deets. Good question. And way to lighten the mood a little, Gabe. I was worried this was going to be another ultra heavy feedback Friday banger like, oh, now my kids have been kidnapped and taken to Saudi Arabia. How do I get them back? That's what I was waiting for on this one. I just wanted, you know, a little palate cleanser. How do I chat with people I don't care about it, Trader Joe's. You know, I thought you would need something like that. I do need it. Let's put all this estranged family stuff and coked up friends business on ice and talk about how to interact with people you met two and a half times in the drop-off line at school when you're in the frozen food aisle of an Albertsons.

50:25Nice change of pace. Exactly. So candidly, I struggle slash used to struggle with this exact same thing myself. And I've had to develop some techniques to not seem like a total a-hole when I interact with people that I only kind of sort of know. So first off, the more you own this and don't try to wiggle out of it, in my opinion, the better. So I'll often say something like, hey, I'm so sorry, I've got dad brain. I think you've told me before, but you have kids too, right? What are the names again? How old are they? Okay, I meant to remember that last time, but it just went in one ear and out the other because I was probably juggling a grocery order somewhere in my brain at the same time.

51:00That usually goes over really well. Everyone can understand that explanation outside of the most self-important narcissists. But then later, I add a task to my Todoist app, usually using Siri. And I'll just say like, hey, remember to write down Jack and Jill's names in my phone. And that's it. So then I go into my phone later, I add their jobs, their kids' names, whatever I need to remember. Because trying to remember something an hour or two later after I get home, that's a lot easier than trying to remember it in a month in the moment when I see them again. And Todoist reminds me to remember and then write it down.

51:35So beyond that, my advice is don't try to pretend, don't be embarrassed to apologize and ask for information again. It's really not that big of a deal. If you happen to be with your significant other or somebody else, you can say, hey, I forgot those people's names. And then she can walk up and introduce herself and they'll be like, oh, hi, I'm Bob. Yeah, I've already met your husband. You're like, oh yeah, that's right. That's Bob. That's a little trick. It doesn't always work if you don't have anybody else near you. I think people mind way more when you pretend like you remember things about them or when you feign familiarity than when you just come right out and go, hey, I'm sorry for being spacey.

52:10You remind me you're married to Paul, right? And your kids are Jack and Lacey and you guys live where again? It's just not a big deal. There are also exercises to remember lots of things about people. If you're interested, you can Google stuff like the memory palace. It's very Dale Carnegie. In fact, I learned it at one of those courses, but I don't use it because one, I've got a pretty good memory now. If I actually listen, that's the problem. And if I have a conversation with the person, if I'm not just phoning it in mentally, I tend to remember random details. And again, they're in my phone.

52:40So I also encourage you to really listen when people talk, if you can, and care about what they say, because that's going to make this whole thing a lot easier. The memory stuff falls into place when you're actually present. And if you don't care because you really don't click with these folks, okay, that's fine. But if you're not clicking with them because you're not putting in some effort, and that's why you can't be bothered to remember anything, that's a different problem. And that's something to think about. But yeah, just for the practical issue of remembering details with people you don't know super well, a little extra legwork, a little structure, a little note-taking tool, that'll do it.

53:17All right, Gabe, what fresh horror do you have for us now? Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a 46-year-old woman, and I met my husband 20 years ago. We dated for five years, and it was wonderful. But the marriage was difficult from the jump. He lost his job during our short engagement and basically never got another one. I carried 100 % of the financial load while he worked, quote-unquote, as an artist. We tried for children, but I was diagnosed as barren. We tried all the medical interventions and a failed adoption before finally giving up. We loved each other deeply, so we weathered these storms together as best we could.

53:57Man, I'm sorry to hear that. That's a lot to go through. Also, I didn't know Barron was a diagnosis. It sounds so cold and cruel to phrase things that way. I mean, I'm sure the doctor didn't use that word. I think she's using that word. Okay, that makes sense. It just sounds so medieval. It's like, I diagnose thee a spinster. You shall never marry. But my husband was undiagnosed bipolar and had episodes of deep depression and physical and verbal violence towards me and others. When the pandemic hit, I lost two jobs in a row and he mentally started to fall apart. I tried to get him help, but he wouldn't go and he got more and more violent.

54:35We were about to starve, so I took what was supposed to be a temporary job across the country. Wow, so this is a lot. This is a lot. It's sad they had five great years and then this guy just completely falls apart and becomes a bit of a monster from the sound of it. I wonder how that happens. I'm guessing he had some troubles from the very beginning, but it sounds like some combination of the pandemic and financial instability just activated those issues. Right, or maybe he hid his dysfunction really well until they were married. Either way, this guy sounds incredibly difficult and chaotic, and it's hurtful in many ways.

55:10Anyway, carry on. I really needed that break and finally got a little peace for myself, and I met someone. Hmm, got a little peace for yourself, did you? Nicely done. She got two kinds of peace from the sound of it, a peace of mind and a peace of... Yeah, we get it, we get it. Letter goes on. a truly wonderful man who took me under his wing and took care of me, and I quickly fell deeply in love. Wow, okay. So after how your last husband treated you, I can see why that would mean a lot. I told my husband, and we separated and planned a divorce. My new love was patient while I disentangled my old life and transitioned to my new one, which has taken about a year with many ups and downs.

55:50Then, a month ago, right when things felt like they were settling down, my ex committed suicide. Oh, geez, that's really sad. Okay, so he was in a lot of pain. This has left me in deep grief, guilt, and on the business end of death as the next of kin. You can't imagine the pain of losing him this way. Even though I wasn't in love with him anymore and wasn't willing to give up this wonderful partner, I never wanted to hurt him. I truly loved him every day since the moment we met. Oh, man, I hear you. Yeah, there was still a lot of love there and a lot of history. and having a loved one commit suicide, it's very painful.

56:28It's super sad and your grief makes a lot of sense. The guilt piece, I'm less sure about, but let's come back to that. Now it feels like my life is doomed. My partner still takes care of me and we're just being each other's person, but it's less romantic now. Nothing feels fun or light like it used to and we're still too new for things to feel this exhausting. We don't fight or have any drama, but I'm losing the spark and I'm not very fun to be around right now. How do I manage all this and not lose this beautiful man? Can this love be saved in the face of all this pain? Signed, grieving the past and doing what's asked without driving my new love away while I'm downcast.

57:13Wow. Okay. This is quite a story. And you're asking some great questions. So to pick up where I left off a moment ago, your grief is entirely appropriate. and the fact that you're going through something this heavy, of course that's playing out in your new relationship. You've just lost somebody important to you. You're allowed to be sad. You're allowed to be angry. You're allowed to not feel as fun as you used to. I think anyone who's lost somebody important, especially to suicide, would feel like they're not very fun to be around for a while. Of course. So I find myself wanting to tell you to make some space for that and to not apologize for those feelings too much or mute them out of concern that you're gonna drive your new partner away.

57:54I get why it's a concern, I really do, but I wonder if buried in that concern is a fear that if you're not constantly romantic, if you're not always fun and bubbly, if you go through something intense like this, then your partner's not gonna wanna be with you anymore, when in fact, the opposite is likely true. If this new partner is really your person, as you say, then he's gonna be there for you through the ups and downs, and he's not going to need you to only be one version of yourself. Which it sounds like that's exactly what he's doing, right? He's still there taking care of her. They're being each other's person.

58:26They don't fight. There's no drama. Even if things are heavy right now, that all sounds really peaceful. That all sounds very sweet to me. That's what makes me think she might have some ideas around what makes her lovable or interesting to somebody. And those are worth exploring and seeing, frankly, if they're accurate. Now, about the guilt thing that you feel, I find that emotion meaningful. And again, it makes sense. You left him. He spiraled out. Sadly, he didn't feel life was worth living anymore. So I get why you're going, man, I wish I could have saved him. I wish I'd done more. But here's the thing.

58:58Your husband struggled in a number of ways. He couldn't hold down a job. He didn't really look for another one. He was trying to be an artist. Sounds like he didn't really give that a real go. Things got so bad, you guys were about to literally starve, okay? Most importantly, he was bipolar. you tried to get him help, he then refused to go, and he was physically and emotionally abusive to you. All of that, especially his mental health and behavior, that was his responsibility, that was not yours. If he had gotten treatment for his mood stuff, his anger, his behavior, he probably could have handled his life a lot better.

59:36He could have stuck with his commitments, he could have been stable enough to maybe work and get better, and whatever drove him to abuse you, He could have brought that into therapy. He could have found resources to work through those things, but he didn't do any of that. And yes, you met someone else, which I'm sure was very hard for him, but that didn't just happen in a vacuum. Things were bad. They were really bad. And it's not like you were having an affair and carrying on behind his back for a super long time. You were essentially separated after he neglected himself and abused you, and you happened to meet somebody who was a much better fit and healthier.

1:00:12So when you say you feel guilty, Okay, that's a very normal response, but I also don't think it's completely warranted because it's really minimizing your ex's responsibility in this whole situation. Which is kind of her pattern, right? While her ex tried to be an artist, she carried 100 % of the financial load. When they were about to starve, she moved across the country and took a temp job. This is a woman who assumes a lot of responsibility. She springs into action when there's a crisis. She probably takes on other people's burdens quite easily. I admire her work ethic. I admire her determination.

1:00:48They are incredibly impressive. But there's also an element here of, I'm going to shoulder the burden for everyone else. I'm the one who needs to step up. And if we fail, it's on me. So to your point, Jordan, she might still be doing a version of that even now after her ex has died, except because there's nothing really to do now, she's experiencing it as guilt that she didn't do more back then. That's exactly right. Right. And I'm sure that speaks to her very big heart and her capability. But yeah, I'm with you. It also speaks to an overactive sense of responsibility, specifically for people who might not always be taking care of themselves the way they should.

1:01:26And that's the other thing that I think she needs to look at here. So how do you manage all this and not lose this great guy you're with now? Well, I think you let yourself move through this difficult chapter, which will get easier with time, I promise you, and not try to suppress or quarantine these feelings too much to spare him. I would also be open with your partner about how you're feeling and what you're worried about now. You could literally tell him, you know, look, I'm sorry that I'm kind of a bummer right now. I'm feeling sad. I feel guilty. I feel stressed out. I know I'm not as playful as I usually am.

1:02:01I'm actually kind of worried about what that might be doing to our relationship, you know, to our spark. I obviously, I have to go through this, but I also don't want to drive you away somehow. So yeah, I just want to talk to you about that. I mean, that's a wonderful conversation to have with a partner. Just come right out and tell them what you're concerned about. Bringing it up, just bringing it up with him might bring you guys closer together. And in that conversation, I would ask him, how are you feeling? What's it like for you while I go through this? Is it okay if I need some room to grieve and I'm not super fun and bubbly 24-7?

1:02:32Is it okay if I get back to the person I was? Given what you have told us about this guy, I think that conversation is going to go really well. Yeah, I agree. And asking for that space to go through this, that would also be a great way for her to rewrite that impulse towards guilt. Yes, because she's putting herself first a little bit, right? She's not taking on other people's stuff unnecessarily. Yeah, she's not going, oh, I'm sorry, I'm no fun. You're probably sick of me. I'm going to do my best to choke this down and hide it so that I can keep you around. she's going to be saying, hey, I'm sorry I'm no fun, but I love you and I really appreciate you giving me room to go through this and helping me heal.

1:03:07That would be a great shift. Also, that level of vulnerability, that communication, that's also how you keep the spark alive. Yes, I was going to say her idea of keeping the spark alive is being fun and bubbly all the time. And I get it. That's obviously important or that's fun. But this is life. This is real-ish. Difficult stuff happens at some point or another. And like I said, if this guy is really for her, he'll be there for her through this. And if she's going to drive him away, it's not going to be because she's sad that her ex committed suicide. It's going to be because she tries to hide all of these parts of herself from him, which I, you know, you're right.

1:03:44That's probably a pattern too. Like, oh, there's no room for my emotions in the relationship. My husband is depressed and bipolar and I can't tell him that I'm upset because he's in hell right now. This is probably a pattern she's had for years. Could not agree more. So yes, to answer your question, this love can be saved in the face of all this pain. That's literally what love is. That's how it works. That's what it does. But I would go a step further and say, I am not sure that this love needs to be saved. You've given us no indication that your partner is about to bounce because you're mourning right now.

1:04:16He doesn't sound like that kind of guy. So I would invite you to consider if you might be underestimating how much he's there for you right now, all these parts of you, and maybe overestimating how much of his love for you depends on you being easy and fun and super low maintenance all the time. Which, it's interesting, that might be the root of the impulse to take on so much responsibility and the impulse to feel guilty because she might feel like she needs to do a lot of work to, I don't know, earn people's love or keep their loyalty, and I'm guessing that tendency also goes back a long way.

1:04:50So let yourself go through this. I'm so sorry that your ex-husband got to this point. I'm so sorry that you're hurting. But please remember that he was on his own journey and he was ultimately responsible for his life, just like you are responsible for yours. Sending you a big hug from California, your new guy too, he sounds like a good one. We're wishing you both all the best. Hope y 'all enjoyed that. I wanna thank everybody who wrote in and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. Go back and check out Jim Latresh if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network.

1:05:20It's the circle of people that I know, like, and trust. Our six-minute networking course will teach you how to build the same thing for yourself. It's free. It's not gross. It's not schmoozy. It's on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com slash course. The drills take a few minutes a day. Dig that well before you get thirsty. Build relationships before you need them. It's a light lift, all at jordanharbinger.com slash course. Our newsletter, by the way, we rehash an episode from back in the day. We drag out those insights and deliver them right to your inbox once a week. So if you want to keep up with the wisdom from our 900 plus episodes and apply it to your life, I invite you to come check it out.

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1:06:30Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love, and if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. This episode is sponsored in part by Conspirituality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation? Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling New Age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy mad yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation.

1:07:03It's called the Conspirituality Podcast. The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic, dive deep into how this stuff spreads from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies. An interesting episode to check out is called Speaking Truth to Goop, where Jen Gunter breaks down the pseudoscience behind the wellness industry in a way that is super entertaining and eye-opening. It's sharp, funny, and makes you a lot harder to fool, which, if you listen to this show, you know I'm all about that.

1:07:32From exploring cults to analyzing our cultural and political landscape, the Conspirituality Podcast will help you stay informed against misinformation and resist fear tactics. Find Conspirituality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts.