923: She's Losing Sleep Over a Dangerous Creep | Feedback Friday

23:16Yeah, Batman voice. I guess where I'm going with this is, it doesn't matter if the guy, like, doesn't understand that the gun is pointed at him as a warning. When you pull a weapon on somebody, you are pulling it to use that in that situation. You're not doing it to, like, look tough or look threatening. now if you don't have to shoot somebody and they run away great but you don't have to be like oh I pulled this out and I had no intention of using it and now this guy's approaching me or attacking me you need to be ready to use that thing so huge asterisk check your state laws because I don't know but look when you live up next to dense woods and somebody's creeping around your house and trying to cut the wires in your video cameras and leaving you threatening notes you probably should be ready to deploy force in your defense if needed.

24:01I know that's not going to be a popular opinion, but come on people. Now the gun thing worries me a little bit because this could escalate and that would be bad. By the way, I would also get motion activated lights around your property or your unit. If you can get a fence around your property, if possible, that would be great. Not one of those little ones. I know it's going to be kind of ugly. You can even rent cyclone fences. Those are really ugly, like the construction ones. But I think if you have a landlord, they might understand like, hey, someone's creeping around my property. And if I have this in motion lights, they're not going to be able to just run up to me.

24:33They're going to be by the fence. So it might be better to just stay indoors with your incredibly effective and really very affordable, simply safe solution with live guard protection, exclusive to simply safe awarded best home security system of 2023 by us news and world reports. And just wait it out, you know, just stay indoors and wait it out. Oh man, you're killing the capitalism today. Yeah, I mean, wait it out, but then for how long? I mean, if this goes on for years, do they just resign themselves to being targeted? No, honestly, at some point I would just consider moving. I know that's awful because the other person wins.

25:04I don't even know if that's an option for you. Maybe it isn't, but you got to put that option on the table. Also, if you do own this home, then you have to take care of yourselves. If you're renting, okay, you let the landlord know. The landlord should also be very concerned about this. Yeah, good point. My old landlord was on the phone with the police and the sheriff's office and the Department of Mental Health constantly trying to get them to intervene with Josh. Sometimes those agencies respond more quickly when a landlord is like, all 38 of my tenants are being terrorized and I pay taxes in the city and I need help.

25:36So that is something else to consider. As for your other question, can someone be both schizophrenic and a psychopath? We did some quick homework on that, and it seems that, yes, a person can be both, although it's apparently pretty rare. I don't know. I'm not sure it really matters what this guy's diagnosis is, right? I mean, he's harassing you. It's a problem. Something has to change. That said, it is important to remember that most schizophrenic people, the vast majority, are not violent. And all of this might seem calculated to you, but to him, it could just be his delusion talking. He's just living out this very weird paranoid story.

26:10He's not even thinking about you specifically. Moving the cameras, cutting the wires. I saw this with Josh. It is all part of a narrative that feels incredibly real and is very intense, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he is targeting you or that he has designs on you or he's going to become violent. I know that doesn't make any of this okay, but it might help you breathe a little easier to just remember that he is caught up in a delusion that involves your neighbor and he might not actually be dangerous to either of you. In fact, a lot of the stuff I read during the Josh chapter, I remember it basically saying that most schizophrenic people only become a danger to themselves.

26:45It's a fair point, Gabe, and you're probably right. But if I were a stay-at-home parent and this guy were coming around and leaving creepy messages, I'd be freaking out too, man. You would be losing your shit, of course. And I'd rather she err on the side of caution. Totally. So in summary, I would keep your distance. Don't confront the guy directly, unless, of course, you absolutely have to. Lock the doors and the windows. Turn your amazing and affordable security system on, whose name I won't mention again, but we all know it's the best on the market according to U.S. News and World Report. Keep calling the police even if they're always late.

27:18I would also call other agencies in your area, the sheriff's office, maybe the state police, the Department of Mental Health, adult social services. Those can be more helpful than others. And tell them what's happening. Document your conversations with these people. Try to get them to intervene and be on the lookout for this guy. Who knows, maybe he's harassing other people all over town and they're like, oh, we got another address where so-and-so's active. You never know. Adult social services can be very helpful in getting people the services they need. Although, if you don't know where this guy lives or he lives out of state, I do wonder if they can do anything but call the other state department of social services.

27:56I mean, come on. If you ever do run into this guy out and about, just stay calm, stay friendly, if that makes any sense. Stay neutral. Assure him that he is safe. You're not gonna harm him if it comes down to that. and then just get your ass inside as soon as possible. I would also maybe get a dog, a big one, that's bonded to you and your kids and can protect you. And yeah, it might be fun for your child to grow up with that. So those are your options. It's incredibly frustrating. I really hope this guy gets handled soon. I have some empathy slash sympathy for this guy as well, of course. I mean, he's in a mental crisis.

28:28I hope he gives up and goes somewhere else or gets handled by the appropriate authorities, whatever. If he doesn't, again, I would consider moving away. Seriously consider that. You shouldn't have to do that, but if things get more dangerous, it might be the only solution. You got to think about your kids. Stay safe. We're sending you a big hug and wishing you the best. You know who else wants to get into your home, Gabriel? The amazing products and services who support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by 1-800-CONTACT. You know that last pair of contacts panic?

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30:27Thank you for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our sponsors does keep us going. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. You can also search for any sponsor using the AI chatbot on the website as well. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, next up. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I've been working as a school psychologist at the same charter school for over two years. Alongside my main job, I coach three sports, supervise many clubs, and help out in any way I can. At first, I felt appreciated and valued, but that changed quickly.

31:06I was told that a 20-something can't tell seasoned professionals what to do. A teacher told me I was triggering her because I share the same nationality as her abusive ex-husband. Oof. And we are, quote-unquote, all the same. Wow. Okay. I'm engaged to another employee at the school, and a teacher asked me if I preferred to go down on him or for him to go down on me. Wow. These are just a few examples of the comments that I received. Boy, that escalated quickly. It sure did. Yeah, that's an interesting work environment, to say the least. The whole you're all the same comment, that is messed up.

31:47That's not cool. And saying that you're triggering her for being a certain ethnicity, that's concerning on so many different levels. Somebody asking about your sex life, okay, so as gross as that question is, it's awkward. It almost strikes me as a colleague being a little too like chatty and buddy-buddy and just misfiring. Right, it could go either way. It all sounds very weird. Like either it was somebody who's really just wildly inappropriate and did that to make you grossed out or it's somebody who's like, so I want to be friends and the way you be friends is you get to rapport. So here's a question that's going to skip all the basics and it's like, okay.

32:21No. Last school year, I was set to be a chaperone on an international trip, which the school's vice principal led. Then, a student on one of the teams I coach inappropriately touched me. I reported it to the vice principal, and the conversation ended with her saying that the culture I implemented on the team made the student think that touching was okay. Essentially, she blamed me. Huh, that's weird. I mean, I guess we don't know if you did create that kind of culture. Maybe if there's a lot of butt slapping during games and then somebody slaps your butt not in the game, it's like, is that wildly inappropriate or just a little bit uncalibrated?

32:56But I can't imagine a coach creating a culture where a student, presumably this is a guy, but who knows, where a student thinks it's okay to like, yeah, to slap a teacher's butt or whatever at any time. That would have to be a pretty extreme culture, I think. And it's hard for me to imagine a female coach encouraging players to do that sort of thing in a high school. Although, what do I know? I mean, I'm an indoor kid. I was furious, so I filed an official complaint. Not even a week later, I was kicked off of the trip by the vice principal and told it was because my report was inaccurate and I could not be trusted.

33:30Wow. This was also right around the time I was admitted into the teacher's union after almost a year-long fight with attorneys to get me in. Okay. Curious timing. First of all, I didn't know you had to fight to get into the union. I thought it was, you're a teacher now, here's your union. I'm guessing she means because she was the school psychologist and not a teacher, So it was a little bit, but she plays all these different roles. So she, yeah. But is there a relationship between those two things? Hard to say. Yeah. But could be, could not be. Hard to know. Could be a coincidence. We don't know.

33:58The principal and vice principal then wrote me up for being two minutes late, for calling out five minutes before the call-out time, and for the quote-unquote tone of an email I sent in response to the nitpicking backhanded tactics that they were using. Yeah. Then they tried to fire me as a coach. This didn't work, but I got the message. They wanted me out. My mental health started to deteriorate. My hair started falling out and I couldn't sleep. So I decided to resign. It broke my heart to leave the students. I want to confront them one last time when I return my laptop on my last day, but I'm unsure if it's worth it.

34:35I already contacted a therapist to discuss my reaction to the situation. That's great. I'm glad you're doing that. I'm really happy to hear that you're going to talk about this. Just to get this one out. By the way, I don't know if I would confront them in one big explosive Jerry Maguire moment when you return your laptop. You're probably going to regret that. And if you do decide to take some kind of action, which I'm guessing is where this whole story is going, I don't know if you want that as part of the record. So the letter ends, am I crazy? Was this retaliation? Since I genuinely believe I was forced out, is there anything legally I can do?

35:08Signed, burned, spurned, and concerned that I might have earned something in return. Okay. I'm sorry things went down this way. At a minimum, this sounds like a very challenging work environment. At a maximum, it sounds like there was something nefarious. Did you just say nefarious? Yeah, I don't know what I... That sounds like a Disney villain. It does. Nefarious. Yeah. I think it's nefarious. I think you're probably right. I'm not even sure why that came out of my mouth like that, but either way... I'm so glad you said that. I'm going to tease you about that one for years. Thank you so much.

35:40Nefarious. I've never said nefarious. I don't understand why that happened. It's nefarious or is it ninerious? It's like a whole thing. Either way, she's been going through a lot at this school, and I'm sorry that this has been so hard. We wanted to run your story by an expert, so we reached out to Neil Rombardo, in-house counsel for a large school district with approximately 8 ,000 employees, a subject matter expert that I never really thought was going to come in handy, but hey, perfect for the job. Presumably, Neil is also on the other side of the table in situations like yours, but that does make him very familiar with the laws and the procedures.

36:11Neil started off with a general disclaimer. as us lawyers love to do, which is that he's only hearing one side of the story, which always concerns him for obvious reasons. Again, very lawyerly, I know, but it is a fair point. None of what you are describing sounds normal or okay in any way. But in the interest of fairness, we do have to keep in mind that these administrators, they might have been having their own experience of you, and Neil only has your facts to go on, as do we. Now, about the incident with that student who touched you inappropriately, Neil said he was also extremely concerned about that part of the story because we don't know exactly what occurred.

36:45For example, did the student voluntarily go to administration to minimize their role? How did this go down exactly? Hard to know. But honestly, I can't imagine a scenario where a student touching a teacher is okay and just goes completely unaddressed. So Neil did say you have some options there. First off, school district employees, and this should apply to you at a charter school as well, they're usually protected by a collective bargaining agreement. And that can help employees who believe they've been mistreated by their employers. Unions and associations might even be able to help you in receiving a new assignment at a different location, or they can file a legal action on your behalf.

37:24Second, government employees have due process rights in their public employment. So according to Neil, a government employer must give notice of an issue related to an employee, they must give the employee the right to respond, and there must be substantial evidence before they take an adverse action against an employee. Also, you might have a lawsuit here. I mean, that was my first instinct. In my view, just based on what you've shared, this is where my head went first, you might have a lawsuit here. Neil didn't opine on that, but he did tell us, and I remember this from law school, there's a cause of action called constructive termination.

37:59And constructive termination means that the employer's behavior makes it so the employee cannot fulfill the functions of the job. and as a result, the employee is effectively terminated. I also wonder if the fact that your fiance is also an employee of the school, if that gives any complaint or lawsuits, maybe a little bit more weight because when that teacher asked about your sex life, they were talking about two school employees. Maybe his testimony is gonna bolster your case. Maybe you both have cases. About the comments about your race and sexual activity, Neil said that such a claim would require the employer to know of this behavior and for an employer to be aware of that behavior, an administrator would need to have heard about it.

38:40So it depends who said it to you and if it got reported. Now, about whether all this amounts to retaliation, Neil explained to us that for behavior to become retaliation, the employer has to take an adverse action based on the employee's protected activity. Now, protected activity, that includes complaining about discriminatory or harassing behavior, reporting violations of the law, rules or procedures, reporting things like fraud or abuse and participating in discrimination proceedings such as an investigation or a lawsuit. So if you were like, hey, this student touched me and they were like, ah, you filed a complaint, you suck.

39:17We're gonna make sure that you can't teach and you can't coach and you can't go on the international trip. It's like, all right, well, that's starting to look like they don't want you to do your job. And it's starting to look like the reason they don't want you to do your job is because you filed that complaint, which if they wrote in writing that they don't want you to go on the trip because you filed a complaint, that's pretty good. You should absolutely save that email or document that conversation because that is really an amazing admission. Yeah, you filed a complaint, so we're gonna take these other things away from you.

39:47Wow, I mean, shooting yourself right in the foot. Also, retaliatory actions, they're not limited to things like termination, demotion, non-promotion, non-selection. They're broadly defined to include harassing behavior, clear significant changes to job duties or working conditions and even threats to take personnel actions, which honestly, it sounds to me like it does describe some of what you shared in your letter. They're trying to get you fired from coaching because you filed a complaint. Okay, well, that's the definition of retaliation. I'm hearing the same thing. So those are the broad strokes from the legal side of things.

40:20The other angle to consider here is how you responded to all of this dysfunction and harassment. And to be clear, it sounds, again, like some objectively messed up things went down during your time at the school. So what I'm about to say is not about blaming you whatsoever. But in dysfunctional workplaces, I do think it's always useful to consider how we show up, how we make things better, or how we sometimes make them worse. For example, my ears pricked up just a little bit when you mentioned the tone of that email you sent. Now, I don't know what the content of that email was. I don't know what the tone of the email was.

40:54Maybe you were just being very direct and honest and the administration resented that you were appropriately calling them out. So there was no way to win. But it's also possible that it was a little aggro. Maybe it wasn't the most diplomatic email, the most professional. So something to consider. Quick story. I have a good friend who worked for a truly awful company where she experienced a ton of harassment and manipulation. I mean, it was crazy. And there was no ambiguity. It was an objectively terrible place. And what they were doing was definitely illegal. And when she wrote management an email saying, look, here are all the things that have happened recently.

41:30Here's how you responded. They retaliated against her in a very real way. They cut her hours. They took away responsibilities. They restructured her pay, all of that. So eventually she left and she talked to an attorney who heard her story and said, this is the most clear cut example of a hostile work environment I have ever seen. You 100 % have a case. And now she and like 12 other employees are suing and their case is very strong. But when she told me about all this, she also told me, You know, yeah, like looking back, I didn't handle certain conversations as well as I could have. I got emotional in that meeting.

42:04I got kind of snarky one day. I got bitter. I said some things I regret. Maybe we could have avoided some of this if I framed things a little bit better. And that doesn't mean that she wasn't the victim or that her time there would have been a walk in the park if she just articulated herself better. But she wanted to figure out her role in what happened and see how she might have made things that much harder. And I thought that was really admirable. And that is something you might want to do as well, just so you can at least take something away from what sounds like an awful experience. Yeah, that's a fair point, Gabe, because this might not be the last difficult school she works at.

42:39Right. And if she can find something to take away from all this, all the better. Otherwise, the only lesson is, wow, that school was a nightmare and the people were terrible. A few of the problems she ran into sound to me political and they also sound institutional. And those problems might exist to some degree at any school. So it would be really great if she knew how to navigate them better next time if they pop up. Yeah, like how to write a difficult letter that comes across in the best way. Yeah, exactly. Or how to diffuse a tense situation with a difficult administrator. Yeah, or how to manage her stress a little better on her own so she doesn't suffer quite as much if her workplace gets toxic.

43:12I mean, having your hair fall out, I've been there. That's a lot of stress that causes that. Not good. Which is another great thing to talk about in therapy. Exactly. I hope she never goes through any of this again. But if she does, it would be really awesome. if she could protect her mental health. Yeah, her mental health and her hair. But all that to say, it sounds like they lost a great employee. A good school psychologist is a real gift. So go take your passion to a school where, you know, they don't ask you about whether your fiance likes over-the-pants HJs or whatever. These people sound ridiculous.

43:44Your best bet is to probably learn from this and just move on. But if you feel like you deserve damages and or your career has been thrown into reverse or you want the school to change, call an attorney and or your union rep. Tell them your story. See if they think you have a case. Otherwise, keep moving forward. Get a job in a healthier environment. And good luck. You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your stepdad's got your nudes, or your neighbors are eavesdropping on your therapy session through the wall, or maybe you accidentally slept with a married guy and you're debating whether to tell his wife.

44:23Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous. Okay, next up. Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm 34 years old, and about three years ago, I ended my brief two-year marriage, which was one of the best choices I have made. Believe it or not, getting married did not solve any of the problems in our relationship. Okay. My ex was unjustifiably jealous and suspicious of infidelity, despite the fact that I only work with men and spent 95 % of my free time with her. She would fly off the handle screaming, throwing, and breaking things, including a coffee table, and at one point locked herself in a room threatening to overdose.

45:09Jeez, okay. The good times were good, but her behavior left me walking on eggshells in anticipation of the next whirlwind. Well, yeah, that must have been quite a two years. I'm sorry you went through that, both of you. I'm getting strong BPD girlfriend from last week's episode vibes from this letter, and it's sad. It really is. I'm now living in the house we lived in, which I later bought her out of, and she has moved into my next-door neighbor's house. Wow, okay. So you get divorced, and she's like, well, we might be divorced, but you're still going to see me get in the mail every evening. I mean, that cannot be innocent.

45:49I don't think so. No. First of all, even if there was one house left in the whole city and it was next door to your ex, you'd be like, oh, guess I'm moving to a different city. Correct. Right. I mean, it's not like she just happened to fall for the guy next door. And when they broke up, it just made sense to shack up together. Right. I mean, that does not make sense. Well, OK, I think he's about to answer that because the next line of his letter is the man is 85. and in her words definitely a pervert well great so she's either shacking up with him because it's convenient and cheap and she desperately needs a place to stay or she wants to stay close to you and this is how she can do that which sounds much likelier in terms of the explanation for why somebody would do this oh my god this is so creepy either way you slice it it's very sitcom family except it's not funny at all.

46:41No. Whatsoever. Except the neighbor boyfriend is definitely a pervert and the woman is low-key stalking her ex-husband. What a riot. That's a terrible sitcom. Very cringey. Although, now that I think about it, who knows if this old guy is even a pervert. She's not probably a reliable narrator. Also, he was definitely a pervert when she was married to our friend here, but now that they're broken up and she wants to stay close to him, he's a boyfriend material. Slash roommate. Yeah. Anyway. Wow. The letter goes on. I'm in a healthy relationship now with a wonderful girl who moved in close to a year ago, and we both have constant stress with my ex being next door.

47:18Given my ex's unpredictable history, my girlfriend will occasionally get upset to the point of tears. My ex hasn't made any contact, but we have started looking into a security system. Good. I have a recommendation. And now lock our cars at night in fear of her childish antics. Is there anything else I can do? Signed, avoiding a war and trying to ignore my crazy past that is now living next door. Wow. Okay, that is not the word I thought you were going to rhyme with ignore. There was a much better rhyme right there. I know. It occurred to me, but that felt like it would be in poor taste. You're too refined, Gabe.

47:59That's your problem. That's what's holding you back in the sign-off department. Such a weird situation. and it definitely tracks with a person who is possessive, unstable, manipulative. It just confirms that you are 100 % right to end this relationship. But, well, you haven't really completely left it, have you? No. Because here she is living next door. This woman is ruthless, isn't she? Ah, truly without Ruth, this lady. Yes. No Ruth whatsoever. So, practical things first. Ruth must be an old word I've never heard. It is, actually. That's where the word ruthless comes from. I mean, it had to come from somewhere.

48:35Without Ruth. Yes, sans Ruth. So practical things first, yes to the security system, and might I recommend SimpliSafe, the incredibly effective and really very affordable home security solution with LiveGuard protection, awarded Best Home Security System of 2023 by U.S. News & World Report. Oh, dude, SimpliSafe is getting their money's worth on that sponsorship today. We should send them this episode and be like, you're welcome, SimpliSafe, above and beyond. Please renew for 2024. for. Also, yes to locking your cars at night. Yes to all that basic personal protection stuff. Lock your house doors.

49:09Maybe get deadbolts if you don't have any already. Make sure your windows are secure, all that. I'm surprised you don't already lock your car at night. It just shows you the difference between the place where you live and the place where I live. Also, when you leave home or come back home, keep your head on a dang swivel. I mean, keep your situational awareness high. All that George Grant stuff we talk about here on the show. I would also be extra careful about your personal information. For example, leaving sensitive information in your trash. Bills, receipts, bank statements, anything with a password on it.

49:39Because what's stopping her from digging through your trash and finding out where you go to dinner or how much money you have or cracking your bank account password or something? I don't know. I don't know if that's her style, but I guess given her history, I would not put it past her. That's true. Me neither. So maybe shred sensitive documents. The shredder's real cheap on Amazon. Or throw sensitive stuff out in a dumpster a few blocks away, which is probably illegal, but whatever. You called her approach childish antics, and I get it, but I'm afraid this is more than childish antics. This is legit, crazy, low-key stalker stuff.

50:11I mean, she moved in next door with an 85-year-old man to be close to you, and you guys have to keep your guard up. The other thing you can do, I almost, I'm on the fence about this one, talk to her directly, tell her this behavior is inappropriate and creepy and that she needs to move on, although typically the advice is don't engage. And I don't really know if it's going to do anything. Again, it just doesn't sound like a person who can be reasoned with. Apparently a theme on today's episode. People you can't talk to. Yeah, for sure. But who knows? Maybe if she calms down a bit, realizes she's not going to get you back, she'll be able to take that in and see that this is not healthy for either of you.

50:46Gabe, do we have any other ideas here? I'm wondering if they can talk to the neighbor, the possible pervert guy. I'm dying to know what the deal is there. If he's somewhat normal and he's not totally senile and out of it or something, maybe you can warn him about your ex and tell him what she's like. Maybe he doesn't know the history. I mean, maybe he overheard stuff in the driveway sometimes, but he might hear the story and go, wait, she just moved in here because she wants to keep tabs on you and she's unstable. And I mean, part of me is like, is that really going to be news to this guy? Because if he's living with her, he must know that she's a little out of her mind, but also maybe not.

51:21And if he hears that, maybe he'll break up with her. If she can even be broken up with, watch, he'll break up with her and she'll move in with a hoarder across the street. It just becomes one big game of musical breakups in the neighborhood. Exactly. I don't know, man. This is a really tough one. It's kind of like the new Josh story from question one. I just don't know if there's this easy solution here. You unfortunately might have to make peace with your ex living next door. As long as she isn't breaking the law or hurting you in some way, unfortunately, she is technically allowed to live there.

51:54That is true. But if you ever catch her doing anything dangerous or illegal or even vaguely threatening, call the police immediately and report it because that might spook her and put her on notice or it might be enough to check her a little bit. And I would also I would talk to the neighbor because he might go, yeah, it's been weird. I didn't want to say anything to you, but she takes your garbage and spreads it all over the living room floor and looks for important documents. And I just didn't know how to bring this up to you. I mean, you just never know. Or he'll be like, she's my girlfriend, you bastard.

52:22I heard what you did to her. And then you know that that's not going to go anywhere. I would consider talking with the guy. Also, calling the police if she does anything might give you a little more ammunition to apply for a restraining order. And to get one, you have to prove that you have a reasonable fear of harm or that there is an imminent danger of violence. And if the court grants you one, then I'm pretty sure she can't live next door to you anymore. Or you sell the house and move, which might be the right answer. If her being next door is intolerable to you and your new gal, if you guys want to build a life together in this house, I could see this being a major issue.

52:54And I really, I feel for her. Again, I hate that would mean that your ex won, but you might have to cut your losses here just for your own safety and sanity. Other than that, I wouldn't engage with her in any way. Just ignore her. She probably wants to provoke you. She wants to be part of your life in some way, even if that means making you scared or miserable. So just don't give her the satisfaction. I know that's easier said than done, but my hope is she just gets bored or frustrated and she eventually moves on. And I am very sorry that you guys are going through this, especially your new girlfriend who's completely innocent in this whole situation, as are you from the sound of it.

53:27This woman sounds like a real piece of work. Hang in there, stay safe, and I hope this resolves itself soon. You know who else wants to awkwardly stare at you through your kitchen window as you eat breakfast every morning, Gabriel? The amazing sponsors that support this show. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable or entertaining in any way, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all in one place, jordanharbinger.com slash deals.

53:59You can also search for any sponsor using the AI chatbot on the website as well. Or if you're super lazy, email me, jordan at jordanharbinger.com. Actually, some people have said, like, I can't find the code for this or what was the product that does that? If you email me that, I will figure it out for you. I'll email you the code. I don't mind. It's important to use these codes for the sponsors. So really, I don't mind digging it up for you. Thank you for supporting those who support the show. It does keep us going and makes it possible to continue creating these episodes week after week. All right, now back to Feedback Friday.

54:31Okay, what's next? Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a 28-year-old high school teacher, and I was so passionate about teaching as an undergrad and a young teacher. I even earned a master's degree in education and am on my way to earning my national board certification. My desire to be a great teacher earned me accolades, awards, and a lot of responsibility. Very impressive. So, so far you sound like an amazing teacher. But I'm now seeing that the better I teach, the heavier my workload becomes. I get asked to do more than other teachers with no additional compensation. I'm a people pleaser and a high achiever, a classic recipe for teacher burnout.

55:10Yeah, kind of the plight of the high performer in almost every environment, corporate or public, especially in your field, I imagine, because all the other teachers are many of them anyway, are going to be jaded, tired, burned out or older with kids and have other stuff going on. Or they're just better at saying no. And the administration's like, well, Miss Summer's amazing and she's got a ton of energy and she's always happy to go above and beyond. Just give her that whole giant ass project and she'll handle it. She'll knock it out of the park. in a traditional company, you'd theoretically be rewarded for your effort.

55:44But in a school setting, and I'm guessing this is a public school, it can just lead to getting taken advantage of. And I remember growing up, my mom had the same problem. She was a special ed teacher in a public school, and it was like, you're doing this. And she's like, oh, crap, I'm too scared to say no. I'm very sorry that this is happening. That is tough. After another stressful start to the school year, I've decided that I need to try something else. I'd love to stay in education, but more behind the scenes than in the classroom. Since I've searched online about job alternatives, I've been targeted for a lot of quote-unquote teacher support ads.

56:16These ads could be anything from helpful resources for struggling teachers to a course to help teachers transition out of the classroom and into a new career. I see so many courses promising to get teachers interviews or resume reviewers offering one-on-one sessions. I'm tempted to purchase a course or talk with a coach to get my foot in the door of a new career. But as a skeptical person, I'm hesitant to trust these promotions. How do I decipher a good resource versus a scammy opportunist poaching burned-out teachers? Is any of this legitimate? Signed, looking for a guide to help me decide where I should apply without being taken for a ride.

56:56Great question. So first of all, I love that you're being proactive. I love that you're open to finding the resources that you need. And if this is really the transition you want to make, then I'm confident that you'll make it because you're clearly bright and driven and you're hardworking. So yes, you are right to have some healthy skepticism about these resources. Like any field, there are great coaches and there are mediocre coaches and there are a ton of bad coaches. Also, the fact that you're finding a lot of them through advertising, you're smart to clock that as a worrisome sign. Not that marketing is bad automatically or whatever, but these coaching services, they're products, right?

57:32And they're finding potential clients like you at a moment of interest and possible desperation when you're panic Googling, how do I get out of the classroom or how do I deal with burnout at 11.30 p.m. on a Tuesday night? That's a great moment for a marketer to go, hey, sad teacher, we have the answer. Just pay us$3 ,000 and we're gonna fix your life for you. And that's where advertised coaching can get kind of sus, in my opinion, because those coaches are often better at marketing than they are at actual coaching. In fact, in my experience, some of the best coaches are so focused on coaching that they're actually terrible marketers.

58:06I agree with that. Or they don't even need marketing because their word-of-mouth referral base is shoveling new clients to them almost nonstop. When I ran a training company, my old podcast was the marketing base. We didn't run Google or Facebook ads because we just didn't need to. We were sold out months in advance, and we really didn't need it. So our marketing, when we finally started, it was terrible because we're like, what do we do? Just tell people we have this product or service and people are like, oh, you sweet summer child. No, you need an ad copy. So here are a few things to look for.

58:39First of all, good coaches need to have solid credentials and meaningful experience. Ideally, they have not spent their entire career just being coaches. They've had some experience before they started coaching, like they were an executive or they were running a company or they were consulting. They're not some 29-year-old communications major who never had a real job and didn't want one. So they're like, I'll just tell other people what to do. And I know I'm being flippant about this, but I've hired a lot of coaches and some of the bad ones. I was like, how did Dave get his background in coaching?

59:11And it's like, well, he used to be a real estate agent and then he'd started taking classes on how to coach. And I'm like, that's why he sucks. He's never done anything that I'm doing. And this is all just rehashed self-help material that he got from the website that teaches people how to coach. This is terrible. I want my money back. So look, it's not a hard and fast rule. There are truly excellent coaches who pretty much have always been coaches, but those folks tend to have gone through rigorous training. They have great results. They got their hands dirty with their clients in a way that almost makes them partners to them.

59:43Good coaches, by the way, of course, also have a track record of success with those clients. So they can point to concrete wins, either in terms of salary or milestones or skill sets. They're not just, you know, bringing out your full potential or making you the best you you can be. Another green flag, if you ask to talk to a couple of their clients, they're usually pretty eager to connect you with people that they've helped succeed. And if the only clients they can point to are the testimonials on their website, that's not an automatic run, but it is a little something to keep an eye on because that's just marketing.

1:00:17Again, when I ran my training company, if somebody was like, can I talk to a former client? Or if they were on the fence, I might be like, hey, do you want to talk to a former client? I knew the sale was in the bag because I'd help them talk to a former client and the client would be like, this is amazing, you've got to do it. And it would be a real dialogue that I was not a part of. I was not on those calls. I just trusted the clients to do a good job and they did it for free, right? A lot of scammy coaches straight up fake testimonials on websites as well. They write them themselves or now they're going to have chat GPT do it and they add a stock photo headshot and nobody ever knows.

1:00:46It's so shady. I've actually found my headshot as a testimonial on their website. And I was like, yeah, I've never used this software. They just grabbed it and it looks like a candid shot of me. And no, I'd never heard of this company. So you do have to be a little careful of website testimonials. Another thing to look for in a coach, whether they have a meaningful philosophy or approach, some kind of curriculum or a method, they don't need to have, you know, 17 frameworks for success or whatever. In fact, that kind of thing can be its own sort of pseudoscience BS. But they should have some kind of approach, whether it's the tools they use to measure success or the way they assess your skills and help you figure out where you want to go.

1:01:28If a coach is like, well, we're going to have 30 sessions together and we're just going to feel our way through this and create a vision board for you, just run at that point. If they're like, okay, our first session, we're going to figure out what your strengths are and what's holding you back. In our second session, we're going to use this framework I developed for figuring out your pain points and what your next career move should look like. In the third session, we're going to come up with a detailed roadmap for the next 12 months of your job search, that kind of thing. That's encouraging.

1:01:52Another thing to look for, they've worked with other clients who had similar issues or similar goals or similar struggles. Although that's not essential, it does help. So hopefully in your case, they worked with teachers, good teachers who landed at the interesting teaching jobs that they wanted. And then there are a bunch of red flags to look out for. For example, they seem distracted or distant when you talk or they're flaky and unresponsive or my favorite pet peeve, they only take calls when they're driving. Wait, have you actually worked with a coach who did that? Yeah. And it was just kind of...

1:02:26Wait, somebody actually was coaching you while they were on the 405? Right. So here's the thing. If you're doing a call because you're driving and it's like, sorry, the traffic is bad. We're going to have to do half the call while I'm driving. That's fine. But if you're planning these calls while you're driving, because you might as well make some money while you're doing your commute, that's nonsense. Because you're going to be partially distracted. You're certainly not going to be taking notes. That's my next point. They're not taking detailed notes during your sessions is another red flag. So they repeat themselves.

1:02:57Oh, that drives me crazy. Yeah, look. If people repeat themselves to hammer things home or make things memorable. Different. Yeah, repetition. position. But if somebody repeatedly forgets where they've left off last time, so they go through the same thing again because they were driving and they're like, oh, that was you I was talking to. Oh, man, I don't take any notes. And I was on my way to Waffle House. Sorry, we just wasted 40 minutes of your 60 minute session rehashing the same stuff as last week. That is not a good sign. Many poor coaches also make up for a lack of relevant curriculum by giving unrelated or or irrelevant assignments with no ability to explain why something is important or needs to be done or how it'll help you get where you want to go or outline how it fits into the bigger picture.

1:03:44And I know some of these red flags because when I started as a coach in 2007 or whatever year it was, not only did I meet tons of coaches who did all of this and worse, by the way, but I ended up borrowing many of their bad habits until I had a bunch of other training and years of experience to round things out. So unfortunately, I made a lot of mistakes on other people's dime. Thankfully, I was damn cheap at the time and rightfully so. In fact, one of my first clients when I was doing phone coaching in like probably 2006, 2007, his name was Alex Schechter. Great guy. He paid us a retainer and he's like, first thing I'm going to do is pay you a retainer.

1:04:21I was like, wow, that's great. Money up front. And he's like, and you need to raise your price because you're so cheap that I'm skeptical that this is going to be any good, but it's so far really good. You need to charge more so people take you more seriously. I thought that was kind of an interesting point. But I did a lot of stuff like, I don't know how to solve this guy's actual issues, so I'm going to go download a bunch of workbook exercises and then just run him through these workbook exercises. And they were not that relevant to what the guy was asking me. And I could tell the client was like not stoked on the training.

1:04:51And I felt really bad about that. But then I took other coaching classes years later and I was like, this guy's literally going through some crappy workbook that he got from his coach's coach. And we're going through this StrengthsFinders 2.0 book, which is good, but I'm like, I'm not asking you about career stuff. Why am I taking a personality test to see what job I should be in? This is not relevant to anything I've been asking you. Also, don't let coaches make you commit right off the bat to large programs. It does take time to get results, but some coaches, they want ridiculous one-year commitment from the jump to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars.

1:05:27Screw that noise. Overall, you'll know when you're talking to someone legit, you can just kind of feel it. I'm not one for being like, follow your intuition. But good coaches and con men, of course, as well, unfortunately, they have a calm air of confidence. They've seen this movie before. They're not all high on their own farts and their excitement is on your behalf. It's not hypey excitement to get you to follow their excitement and then commit to them financially or otherwise. If you sense that you're in good hands, if you feel like they take you seriously, if you feel understood, if you feel like they're smart and present and genuinely invested in your results, those are good signs.

1:06:04So look for the green flags, listen to your intuition, look out for the red flags, and you'll either find a good coach or you'll realize that you don't even need any of these people in the first place. Yeah, I was gonna say, I think given her credentials and her knowledge and her work ethic and all these wonderful qualities she told us about, I really do wonder if she needs a career coach to make a transition. I mean, if I interviewed this teacher and she told me these stories, like I outworked everybody and they always gave me all the work. I mean, I'm hiring this person, even if she doesn't want to be in the classroom anymore.

1:06:34It just sounds awesome. So all of this is great advice for finding a coach in general, of course, not just in the teaching world. But I just want to throw one more thing into the mix here before we close out, which is if leaving the classroom is the right move for you, great, more power to you. I get it. But you did mention that you're a people pleaser and you're a high achiever, and that has led to real burnout. So I just want to ask you whether the answer is truly to leave the classroom or to learn how to draw better boundaries with your colleagues so that people are not dumping all of their work on you or you're not being taken advantage of and not compensated for that work.

1:07:07Or maybe the right answer is finding a school that appreciates and respects you more and again, compensates you for all of this amazing work that you've volunteered to do because you love teaching and you're really passionate about it. And it makes me kind of sad that these people might be ruining what sounds like an amazing calling. If you are truly not interested in being in the classroom anymore, that is fine. But the point still stands wherever you end up going, because you're so good at what you do and you work hard, I have a feeling more work is always going to fall to you. So developing these boundaries and learning to say no sometimes, and also maybe encouraging your peers to work as hard as you do to spread the work around a little bit.

1:07:43Those will be great skills wherever you end up. True. One more thing she could work on with a coach, although she might not even need a coach for that, just some practice. So I hope that this helps. You sound like a fantastic teacher. Your students are lucky to have you. I hate that the system or whatever, maybe just this school, is driving a talented person like you out of the classroom. But education do be like that sometimes. My mom had this very similar issues, and this is in the 70s and the 80s and probably even earlier. We hear it all the time. Hang in there, find the coach you need, avoid the ones you definitely don't need, and good luck.

1:08:16Okay, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, The Jordan Harbinger Show is one of the podcasts that I never miss. I have other podcasts I listen to as well and over 450 books on my to-read list. Wow. I feel quite overwhelmed by the amount of knowledge and information to gather out there. I don't know how to manage all of it. I'm a father of three with a full-time job, and even when I retire and my kids are out of the home, I imagine that this issue will remain the same. How do you guys sort out what you read and listen to? Signed, The Drowning Disciple. It's a good question and I can totally relate. So first of all, you have to make peace with the fact that you are just never gonna consume as much information or acquire all of the knowledge that you want.

1:09:04No one can. It's literally infinite. Your time is finite. It's just not possible. it doesn't mean you failed or that you're prioritizing the wrong things, that you won't be successful. Sure, it's fun to learn a lot and get into a ton of different content, but it's just not realistic. So my first recommendation is let go of that reading list of 450 books. That's an obscene number of books. Most people aren't going to do that in a decade. Let go of the idea at least that you're going to get to all of them. I don't mean you have to delete it. It's just one thing to have a list of books to choose from when you need a new read.

1:09:36but if you're beating yourself up for not reading all 450 of those books, that needs to stop because it's never gonna happen. More to the point, it shouldn't happen. As you can tell, I love learning as much as you do. It's one of my main hobbies. I'm that dude on vacation reading The Atlantic and catching up on that stuff or frigging reading Reddit over breakfast on some obscure topic that I'm in a rabbit hole on. I get it. But reading everything constantly until you die, it's just not the point of life. The things you want to learn, in my view, they're there to enrich your life, to equip you better, to give you tools or ideas or stories that'll help you live better.

1:10:15But if you're spending all your time trying to consume this stuff, then you're not giving yourself much room to put them into practice and, you know, actually enjoy your life. And you're right. When you theoretically have more time in the future, you still won't be able to get to all of your reading. And I hope that's the case because it means you'll have a lot of life to live. So my take on this is make peace with the limits of your time and attention. Be more deliberate about what you consume. If there's a specific niche or theme or a question you wanna learn more about and it's actually gonna make your life richer in some way, either by making you a better person or a better parent or helping you in your career, then I'd focus on those books or podcasts.

1:10:56But if they're just interesting, if they're just a way to satisfy your brain's urge for more content, if they're ultimately just gonna take you away from your family and your friends and your hobbies and you're not gonna capitalize on what you learn in some meaningful way, then I would prioritize something more important. Now, if you really enjoy this stuff, that's one thing. I hope that this podcast falls into that category, but if it's just another obligation, I think you can safely cut it. So a big part of this is getting very clear on what matters to you and what impact you actually wanna have on your life.

1:11:29So for me, obviously, I need to read the books and ideas that inform this show. So that's pretty clear because it's related to my career. I also prioritize learning Mandarin because I like it. It's useful in a concrete way. I use it with my family. It brings us closer together. It allows me to travel and have more interesting conversations with people. I teach my kids, so that's great. So I make time for that. But reading every single New Yorker article about particle physics and congressional malfeasance or whatever, not worth it for me. Some of the stuff is fascinating and well-written, fun, sure.

1:12:00but it's not worth it. So that's what it's about for me. Priorities, values, goals, discipline, and frankly, a healthy dose of self-forgiveness. But look, if any of this leads you to stop listening to this show, then you've obviously made a huge mistake and you need to restructure your entire life to listen to all three or four episodes we put out every single week. Never give up on this show, even if it means neglecting your partner and ignoring your kids, because I got to feed my kids. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Those SimpliSafe solutions will not buy themselves. That's right. And thanks for hitting the Simply Safe plug for the 19th time today.

1:12:33SimplySafe.com slash Jordan. Gabe, you're a real one. Thanks for the reminder. Yeah, I don't know. I just feel like they got short shrift today. Indeed. I just want to get that name in there one more time. Hope y 'all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone who wrote in this week and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. Go back and check out the episodes with Mitch Prinstein on popularity and Mossab Hassan Youssef, the Green Prince on the Hamas-Israel conflict. Both great episodes here for you this week. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people that I know, like, and trust.

1:13:02And I'm teaching you how to do the same thing for yourself in our six-minute networking course. It's 100 % free. It's not gross. It's not schmoozy. You can find it on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com slash course. The drills are designed to take just a few minutes per day. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Dig the well before you get thirsty, folks. Build relationships before you need them. You can find that at jordanharbinger.com slash course. We got a lot of email. we mentioned teachers in an ad before about this, about how teachers think they don't need networking because I've heard that a lot from teachers and public servants.

1:13:33And people who are high up in those areas, they were like, networking is everything. Why are these people burying their heads in the sand? So don't be that. JordanHarbinger.com slash course. And if you haven't signed up yet, come check out our relaunch newsletter for the show. It's called Wee Bit Wiser. It's a bite-sized gem from a past episode from me to you delivered to your inbox once a week. If you want to keep up with the wisdom from our 900 plus episodes and apply it to your life, I invite you to come check it out. You can sign up at jordanharbinger.com slash news. Show notes and transcripts at jordanharbinger.com.

1:14:02Advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. I'm at jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's over there on Instagram, Gabriel Mizrahi, or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Neil Rombardo.

1:14:33Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love, and if you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

1:14:49Hamas is an Islamic movement. My father is one of the founding members of Hamas. Hamas for us was everything to the point where it became an army. It's a monster. I agreed to work with Israel with a hidden agenda to be a double agent. The level of pressure that I had to go through, my heart stopped for approximately 30 seconds. Most human beings cannot make it back. I was tortured mentally and physically. Everybody in the city knew that I'm a dead man. For more, including what it was like growing up in one of the first families, of which many consider a terrorist group, and why Mossab considers it the greatest school of his life, check out episode 407 on The Jordan Harbinger Show.