943: Still Loves His Bride But Seeks Sex on the Side | Feedback Friday

23:31You can also search for any code using the AI chatbot on the website as well. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, next up. Hello, Gabe and Jordan. I'm a 46-year-old woman living in Texas, and when I was a teenager, I was sexually abused by my biological father from ages 14 to 16. He was the typical narcissist abuser who manipulated me into keeping the abuse a secret. My mother didn't know, and luckily, when I was 17, they divorced, and my mother and I moved out. I was relieved. I viewed it simply as I got away. Ugh, that is awful. Really awful.

24:12I'm so glad they divorced and you finally got away, but I am very sorry this happened to you. Horrible. I rarely saw him after that, but when I was 30, I wrote him a letter finally acknowledging everything that happened and told him that our relationship was over. I threatened that if he tried to have contact with me or even reply to the letter, I would tell everyone what he did to me. I never heard from him again. He still lives in Texas in a small town four hours away, and I think he spent most of his life alone. For years, I was happy that that chapter of my life ended, but after having a child 10 years ago, my trauma started to surface in the form of anxiety attacks and nearly a nervous breakdown.

24:52That's when I started therapy. I had guilt about never telling my mom and fear that my father might have continued his behavior with other young girls. Three years ago, after years of therapy, I finally told my mom. It was the hardest and best thing I have ever done. I can't describe the weightlessness of unloading a 30-year secret. I also told all the friends and family my father had left, and they all believed me and comforted me. I have more closure than I ever thought I would. Wow, that is extraordinary. That must have been quite a difficult conversation with your mom. I can't even imagine having to tell a parent something like this, but shrugging off the burden of carrying such a big secret that is incredible.

25:35And I really commend you for opening up about this. Same here. I'm also so happy to hear that these friends and family believed you and supported you. You know, we've gotten a lot of letters on Feedback Friday where people tell their families about terrible things like this and they aren't believed or people just kind of go quiet and get awkward or they take the abuser side. So this is a really great outcome. So she goes on. Then I contacted some old friends, including other girls I played softball with as teenagers, where my father was the coach. After I graduated high school, he continued to coach a traveling tournament team.

26:08I found out I wasn't the only victim. The worst part was that he had a full-on sexual relationship with an underage girl on that team after my mom and I moved out. Oh, boy. This guy is disgusting. Really gross. I decided to file a police report. I couldn't convince the other girl, who's now in her 40s with her own trauma, to make her own report, and she has all my love and understanding. Eight months after making the report, a detective finally got in touch with me. He was kind and sympathetic, but basically told me that there was nothing he could do because of the statute of limitations in Texas.

26:45Right, okay, so just for anybody who doesn't know, a statute of limitations is basically a deadline for bringing a case. It can range from a few years to decades depending on the crime. Most states implement these statutes to protect people from getting hit with charges that are filed years and years and years after the alleged crime. In the interest of fairness, we as a society, we want defendants to have the opportunity to put on the best case they can. And we don't want people to have to fight charges that allegedly happened so long ago that the evidence is long gone, the witnesses can't remember anymore, they've passed away, stuff like that.

27:18Statutes of limitations also protect witnesses to a certain extent. They give law enforcement and prosecutors a hard deadline to work against the victims don't just get strung out for years. Sorry for the legal crash course. I just wanted to remind people why a statute of limitations exists, especially when it comes to horrible sex crimes like this, where there's compelling evidence that the alleged perpetrator really did these things to a number of people. Because a lot of folks go like, our system's broken. It's like, no, this rule exists for a reason, even though sometimes it blows up in your face.

27:45So carry on, Gabe. Then last year, a friend alerted me to an addendum to the laws around the statute of limitations in Texas regarding abuse. I emailed that detective, but never heard back. I don't know if I have the energy or emotional capacity to pursue justice, but it's in the back of my mind at all times. Can you give me some clarity on the statute of limitations in a situation like this? Should I pursue this again? Signed, a vindicated victim, unable to forgive him, with the vim to still go get him. What a story. Again, I'm so sorry that you went through this, but I'm also so impressed by how far you've come, how you've owned your story, how you found agency by talking to another victim and reporting this to the police.

28:28You're asking a good question about the legal side of this. So we reached out to Corbin Payne, attorney and friend of the show. As per usual, our very own Atticus Finch had to kick it off with a disclaimer, as we attorneys love to do, and remind us that he's not a Texas lawyer. He's from a couple states over, Tennessee, where the biting wit is even sharper and the accent's more beguiling. Now, Corbin wasn't sure what this addendum actually was. He did some quick research, said it looks like Texas's statute of limitations for child sex abuse was amended in 2019 to give victims more time to report cases.

29:02So I'm guessing that's what you're referring to. But Corbin did have a few broad principles to share. And again, sorry for how law heavy this answer is going to be, but it all relates to what to do about your father. I promise. First off, the U.S. Constitution bans something called an ex post facto law. That means you can't retroactively punish somebody for a past crime. And the Supreme Court says you can't prosecute somebody for a crime that's already passed the deadline under the statute of limitations by amending the statute of limitations to extend the deadline. If the deadline is already passed by the time of the amendment, then the person who committed the crime cannot be prosecuted.

29:36But if the deadline has not already passed by the time of the amendment, then the person can be prosecuted. Basically, if they already thought, oh, good, the deadline passed, I'm off the hook. Nothing can change that. But Corbyn wanted to be clear. This is the U.S. Supreme Court interpreting the U.S. Constitution. Texas is a state. They might have broader protections in place for the accused. So it is possible that a change in the statute of limitations would not extend the deadline for somebody to be prosecuted for a crime. and even if the statute of limitations were amended to give indefinite time for bringing a charge, the state still might not be able to prosecute him.

30:10But that's something you'll have to ask a Texas attorney. The second thing Corbyn wanted us to remember was the U.S. Constitution guarantees defendants certain due process rights, including the right to a speedy trial. So for the purposes of your story, if a defendant like your father were able to argue that an extremely long delay in bringing an indictment prejudiced his case, then that would be a violation of his right to a speedy trial, and that would likely result in a dismissal. And in your situation, a good defense attorney, they're going to be able to argue that so much time has passed, he can't now prepare an adequate defense.

30:43He can't find a witness to provide an alibi. When this allegedly took place, I was fishing with Tom. Tom died 20 years ago, right? Any physical evidence is long since destroyed, et cetera, et cetera. So in Corbin's experience, bringing this case against this guy would be an uphill climb for the state. The other thing is the state has to prove his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. And that's a major factor in this case, because if this were ever brought to trial, this is the definition of he said, she said the length of time involved, the lack of corroborating evidence, the lack of corroborating witnesses.

31:15Again, all of that means that this is going to be a tough case for the state to prove. And any witnesses, they would have to corroborate the crimes against you. The state could bring in other witnesses who would testify about his attacks on them. So this other woman, for example, they can only do that under very specific circumstances. And that's another thing that makes this a hard case in Corbyn's opinion. And it's also probably factoring into your treatment by the police. That's right. The last thing Corbyn wanted to share, and this is a burning issue for him. We've heard him get worked up about this many times, and I think appropriately so.

31:48The way we dole out money for police budgets tends to prioritize drug prosecutions over any other types of crime, which means that the divisions that investigate and prosecute violent crimes tend to be extremely underfunded and short-staffed, which means they have to make tough decisions about prioritizing certain cases over others. As Corbyn put it to us, if they had all the time and all the resources in the world, maybe they would pursue this. But the fact is, they've got extremely limited time and resources, so they kind of have to prioritize other stronger cases. To quote him here, you deserve better, but this is the way things are all over the country.

32:25It's completely backward, but Corbyn said to us, the people who design our criminal legal system haven't asked for his opinion. So there it is. Now, I know that's probably incredibly frustrating to hear. It probably feels like the system has conspired to deny you and other women justice. And that's entirely fair. And Corbyn felt the exact same way. But here's the incredible news. You have come such a long way in processing what you've been through. You went to therapy, you talked about this, which was huge for you and also a gift to your child. I think that's tremendous. You reported it to the police, which was the right thing to do.

33:01You reached out to another victim. You empowered her to report. She ultimately didn't want to, and that's her right, but you did your part. And you had the courage to tell your friends and your family what happened to you to, again, really own your story and to find their support. When you said you felt weightless after telling your mother, when you said that you've gotten more closure than you ever thought you would, I mean, I wanted to stand up and applaud for you. Because on a personal level, this is a massive win. Now, sadly, but also luckily and incredibly, that private victory is sometimes all you really have in a case like this.

33:34And that might be the contradiction that you now have to live with. Which is why Corbyn wanted to share one more idea with you. Less as a lawyer, more as a human being. To quote him again, the biggest hurdle to prosecuting people like this is their ability to weaponize shame and to utilize other forms of manipulation to keep victims quiet. In Corbin's view, a world where everyone is better educated about sexual abuse, better educated about its red flags, and better able to encourage its victims to speak out, the more we as a society can effectively crack down on it. So if you want justice, Corbin said there are plenty of opportunities to get involved in helping victims, raising community awareness, advocacy.

34:12We don't know if you can get your abuser punished beyond what you've already done, but helping others get justice or avoid getting victimized, you might find that a very rewarding experience. Again, I'm so sorry you went through this, but I'm so proud of how far you've worked through the legacy of this painful event, sending you a huge hug and wishing you all the best. You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Use a descriptive subject line. Makes our job a lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your neighbors are eavesdropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or you're thinking about rekindling things with your unstable, abusive ex with literally the craziest parents that we've ever heard about on this show.

34:52Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. Okay, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm 22 and I graduated from college with a degree in marketing last year. I've been working at a nonprofit for about a year and a half. And while I feel really appreciated at this company, the pay is decent and it's a good cause, I'm not learning anything and I can feel my creativity and soul getting sucked out of me. But it's a remote job, so I have a lot of flexibility and freedom. Separately, I started a podcast with my cousin recently about the story of a sexual assault trial, as well as sexual assault in general.

35:32I have absolutely loved working on this podcast. I find myself spending hours and hours working on it and thinking about it constantly instead of my other responsibilities. It's something I would love to turn into a career, but I understand how saturated the podcast market is and I know this may not be realistic. Right now, my mom is paying 60 % of my rent because I can't afford to pay it all with my current job. I've thought about getting a job as a waitress or something, but my mom says this is a bad idea because I would be surrounded by bad people who aren't going in a quote-unquote good direction.

36:07I grew up in a very Christian household and my mom has always held money over me. I can't even tell her about the podcast because I mentioned things like premarital sex and drinking, which are both things I'm worried she would take away my rent for. She's done that kind of thing before. When I was young, she made me pay for my figure skating lessons and many other things when she found out that I was drinking slash being a bad kid. But I had no time for a job and she wouldn't let me get one because being a high level figure skater is a full time unpaid job. My mother is also one of the main donors of the nonprofit where I work.

36:42I don't want to settle for a job I'm not great at or don't love, but not having a big girl job is really putting a damper on my confidence. My job search is not going well, although I've applied to tons of places and it's making me wonder if I'm even meant for marketing or PR. I also really don't like that my mom has such a strong hold on me financially, which in turn means she has a hold on my life. What should I do? Do I tell my mom about my podcast and risk her being extremely disappointed in me and maybe even taking away my rent? Signed, chasing my own goals and listening to my soul while still on mama's payroll.

37:19Super interesting story. First of all, I'm very sorry to hear the job search isn't going well. I know that can be really demoralizing, especially for a young person who's just getting started in her career. For what it's worth, we're hearing from tons of listeners that the job market these days is really weird and it's very tough. So you're not alone there. It sucks for, I guess, everyone, you might just have to be persistent and patient until something hits. And it sounds like you're hustling, which is great. So I'm very intrigued by this podcast that you're working on. This is obviously where your passion lies.

37:48The fact that you're working on it, you're thinking about it for hours and hours, even more than your main job. That tells me you found something very meaningful to you, something inherently rewarding, and that's fantastic. But you're right. Turning a podcast into a career is extremely difficult. It really does have to be a labor of love for a ridiculously long time in most cases before you see any external rewards, if you ever see any external rewards. So my best advice there is to just stay connected to your passion for the project. Let that sustain you. Let it be enough. I would love for you to make tons of money from something like this right out of the gate.

38:20But sadly, that's almost never how it works. And I'm glad that you know that. But what we really need to talk about here is your mom. So holy moly, I mean, that's a this is quite a relationship. And I'm sorry to hear that this has always been tricky. It sounds like your mom exerts a lot of control in your life, financially for sure, but also socially, ideologically. She might not be a bad person by any means. She might just have very strong values, and she's obviously passionate about instilling them in you. But my sense is that you've struggled to healthily separate from her, to be authentically yourself, to pursue opportunities that you find important, like the podcast or even a restaurant job because she wouldn't approve.

39:03The fact that your mom supports you financially, though, is a huge part of the challenge. Now look, it's very kind of her to help you out with rent. It sounds like you need it, especially as a 22-year-old person who's still finding her footing professionally. So let's just take a moment and appreciate the gift that she has given you. I'm sure it comes at least partly from a good place, but there's a cost to that gift. And the cost is that it makes it extremely hard for you to be honest with your mom about what you really want out of life, how you want to spend your time, what you find meaningful.

39:35Now, I don't know if your mom is deliberately trying to control your life by paying for your rent. Maybe she is, maybe she isn't. Probably it's not conscious, but the result is basically the same. Totally, and also the fact that she's a donor at your nonprofit, which I assume is how you got the job, I think is also an interesting detail. Right, she's very woven into her life. Everywhere she turns, professionally anyway, her mom is just kind of there. When you said that I can't even tell her about the podcast that I'm so excited about because I mentioned things like premarital sex and drinking, which are things that I'm worried she would take away my rent for.

40:07That really jumped out at me. And honestly, it made me sad because you are genuinely lit up by this project and you have to suppress your excitement and you have to hide this part of your life from your mom because basically she can't handle the subject matter. Which I find extra frustrating because I'm assuming she's not necessarily endorsing those things on the podcast. She's just discussing adult topics, you know, like an adult. Yes. But here's the problem. If you don't keep that hidden from her, then she could take away your rent money, which whether or not this is an intentional strategy, that's clearly a source of her power and control over you.

40:43Right. She is pulling the strings, the purse strings and also kind of the mind strings, right? The other example you mentioned is also really interesting, how she made you pay for your skating lessons and other stuff when she found out that you were drinking and being a quote unquote bad kid. but then she wouldn't let you get a job because being a figure skater, a really good figure skater is a full-time unpaid job. So what's the deal there? I thought that was interesting too. What a message to receive, eh? But also what a bind she put you in, right? Like you have to pay for your own lessons because you're behaving badly but you can't go get a job on the weekends to pay for them because you need to be fully focused on your sport which I just made so much more difficult for you to do.

41:22I mean, sorry to open up your whole childhood here. I know you weren't trying to talk about that But what is the logic here? I mean, what game is mom playing? I mean, again, it just sounds manipulative and controlling to me. This was clearly only a punishment with no functional byproduct or result, really. By that, I mean, she didn't get a job and then spend her time working instead of being a quote unquote bad kid, which would have made sense. Like, oh, you have too much free time. I'm going to make sure you work during your waking hours and you're too tired to go out and get screwed up with your friends.

41:48It sounds like she just had her life get a lot harder because her mother wanted her to feel the sting of not behaving as mommy dearest wanted her to do. Right. So she created a problem for you, and then she didn't even allow you to solve it. She just wanted you to suffer. And that strikes me as oddly harsh and cruel somehow. I agree. But also, if you really were being a bad kid who did need some guidance, then she could have sat you down and tried to understand why you were acting out and where this behavior was coming from, not just punish you in this very weird and confusing way. You know, that story also makes me quite sad.

42:23I just have this image of a parent who's a lot more interested in making her daughter conform to her values in this very authoritarian way, possibly because she was also raised that way, rather than trying to explain to her why these values even matter in the first place and trying to understand her. Yes, and that last piece, I think, is the most important part, is like how much does mom really want to understand her daughter and give her the space to authentically be herself? Mom has been the boss for a very long time. So her opinions obviously carry a lot of weight and now they are constraining your options.

42:56But I imagine that she also takes up a lot of real estate inside of you. I do wonder if some of your mom's beliefs and judgments and also her fears might also be holding you back internally in the way that you approach, for example, your job search or the way you assess professional opportunities or the way you decide what's worth pursuing and why and whom do I get to tell about it? And actually, that's the aspect of your relationship with your mom that I am the most concerned about. Yes, the financial control is real and very important. But also for somebody like you who's interested in creative projects, it's the intellectual and emotional and artistic control that concerns me even more.

43:34And sometimes that can be the hardest part to shake. So, okay, what do you do? Well, first of all, my strong feeling is that you need to become financially independent from your mother. I realize this isn't going to be easy, especially with the job market the way it is. Might take several months, might even take a year or more. But I really do have confidence that in time, with the right approach, with a great network, with a lot of hard work, you will find a great opportunity that uses your skills and pays you well. Now, this is crucial because as long as you need your mom to approve of your choices in order to keep a roof over your head, then the terms of your life will never be entirely yours.

44:10Your professional decisions will be informed by her. And I think you're always going to feel beholden to your parent. Not to mention, she didn't say anything like this, but I'm also waiting to hear like, oh, you're dating a boy I don't like. Well, don't make me take away your rent money. Oh, you know that friend you brought over? I don't like her. Don't make me take away your rent money. It just sounds like that's the default. I mean, if you're going to take away rent money because she said something about alcohol on a podcast. Right. What else would she punish her daughter for? And even if she wouldn't really do that, the fact that this girl is thinking about what if my mom punishes me for this.

44:42Is that really a way to live your life? It sounds like North Korea. Like you just default, don't do anything because it might piss off your mom who's then going to make you homeless. Kim Jong-mom, don't deal with that. Yeah, Kim Jong-mommy over here is playing a big role in her life, which by the way, all of that is also a recipe for resentment and frustration and fear and interestingly, often depression, you know, just that cocktail of having to pretend to be somebody you're not to keep your mom happy and repressing all these feelings that are dangerous and your family. Yeah, for sure. But again, I'm not saying your mom is necessarily a bad person.

45:15We said Kim Jong mom. That wasn't super flattering. But, you know, we're messing around. She's your mom. She's been generous with you in this big way. I'm sure if we talked to her, she'd say, look, I just want my daughter to be happy and productive and successful and on a good path. And I'll do anything to get her to do that and not make the mistakes I did. And then we would all have a group hug and understand each other. But the dynamic between you, how she's shaping your choices, how you feel stuck and confused because of her role in your life. In my opinion, that's what you need to explore right now and to start to rewrite in a way that feels fairer and more authentic to you.

45:48So here's an idea. If working in a restaurant is the best way to make some extra money right now, then I would encourage you to at least consider it. Does your mom need to know? Can you just work your shifts and not tell her? I hate to encourage you to hide more stuff from her. I'd rather you do the opposite. But I also think it's fair to keep certain details from her as an adult and you are an adult. At some point, you'd have to explain where you're getting the rent money that you no longer need from her. But just tell her OnlyFans. No, that might be months down the line, at which point you can say, actually, I picked up an extra job because I want to be taking better care of myself.

46:22And if she's like, my daughter in a restaurant, the den of sin with all the lowlifes and losers and fallen souls, you can say, look, I hear that you don't like this, mom, but I don't feel it's fair to rely on you for rent at my age. and I want to be a responsible adult. I found a job that paid me nicely. I'm happy to put in the work to succeed, which is something you taught me from a young age. Or who knows, maybe after the fact, she won't be mad at all. And if she says, you know, Gabe, I have a sneaking suspicion that it's not working at a restaurant is bad for you. I have a feeling it's, uh-oh, she won't need my money, which means I can't influence her choices.

46:58Like maybe there's just a hint of actually, I like paying her rent because she can't go against me. Well, exactly, yes. Right, so maybe she doesn't actually give a crap if she works in a restaurant. Maybe she does, maybe she doesn't. Maybe it's both. Yeah, it's a little bit of both. And if she says, well, I don't like you being surrounded by bad people who aren't going in a good direction, you can say, hey, I hear you, mom. Thank you for being so concerned about the people I surround myself with. I don't know about the other people at the restaurant. I really only know about myself. What I need right now is to make some extra money so I can be a self-sufficient adult.

47:27It doesn't need to be a fight. It can be a simple conversation where you gently start asserting yourself a little bit more. Now, I don't know how your mom's going to respond to that. She might resent you. She might panic. She might fly off the handle. She might try to guilt you into doing what she wants. People who lose control over their kids, if they're exerting control, they might not like that, but it doesn't mean that's necessarily going to happen. But hey, none of those reactions, none of those mean that you are wrong. Actually, they would be quite telling. They probably only reveal the parts of your mom that she hasn't probably dealt with.

47:59And you have to be able to bear those feelings. It's not always about you. Yes. And in time, I'm pretty sure that your mom will settle into this new reality. I mean, what other option does she have? I mean, she could keep writing you rent checks and forcing you to cash them, right? Like she can't do that. She could yell at you forever for not believing what she believes. I mean, okay. But at what point does she just give up slash you say, okay, mom, I got to go, right? Like the beauty of taking care of yourself is that you don't have to put up with nearly as much from somebody who frankly should not have a say in whether you get to work on a podcast that you really love.

48:32Yeah. So do you tell her about the podcast and risk her taking away your rent? Long term, yeah. I would love to see you tell your mom what you're working on and not censor yourself any longer. That would be another great way to individuate. But if telling her about the podcast is going to seriously compromise you financially, like if you would have to give up your apartment or you would get evicted because she would refuse to help you, then I would be very thoughtful about this. And I do think you are well within your rights to keep the podcast on the DL while you pursue your plan to financial independence.

49:04But if you do that, then you have to really make this plan a priority. You gotta put in the work. You know, maybe you give yourself six months or nine months to make the money that your mom is currently giving you. Or maybe you put the job search or the networking into overdrive and you really hustle in a new way to land the job you want. Or maybe you give this waitressing idea a go and you see if it works for you. Maybe you start shagging a wealthy old guy to make up the shortfall. I mean, okay. If we're putting all the ideas on the table, I guess that's an option. Just make sure that that guy loves podcasts, I guess.

49:34Anyway, once you're not at risk of losing your apartment, then you can tell your mom what you've been working on. And I realize that that might sound a little manipulative. And maybe it sounds like I'm contradicting what we were saying this whole time about not hiding parts of your life from your mom. But to me, this is kind of fair game because frankly, I'm not sure that your mom needs to know everything about your creative projects while you're working on them. And also privately working on something you care about is okay. It might even be helpful for the project because it's pretty clear to me that her opinion is not going to add anything to the project.

50:04If anything, it might make you more confused and conflicted about it. Where this gets tricky for me is if you go years without telling your mom what you really want to do with your life because you need her money. At which point, yes, that starts to feel inauthentic and potentially a bit gross. That's the scenario I would avoid by putting in the work now. Yeah, I agree. My parents still think I'm a lawyer. that would be a hell of a whopper I suppose on the job hunting front the best advice I can really offer you is to keep investing in your relationships those are going to help you break into the industry you're interested in it's going to fill those gaps if you're not finding success in the traditional job search I would shift 50 or more of your energy toward building new relationships invest in those six minute networking.com right let that be your job hunting strategy that said if the nonprofit is giving you stability and flexibility while you work on your passion project, that's one good reason to stay.

50:58It might not ultimately be enough to stay, but that's one factor to weigh alongside the others. But honestly, I think the crux of your letter is your relationship with your mom. And my gut is telling me that her influence shows up in a lot of areas of your life. So that's where I'd really dig in. And good luck. By the way, I subscribe to a newsletter. It's an industry newsletter for podcasters. It's pod news, pod news.net. If you go to pod news.net slash jobs, they actually have tons of podcasting jobs. And most of them are going to be remote just because it's a digital thing in this day and age, not all, but there's a lot of jobs there.

51:32Sure. Some of them are Apple and Spotify. You know, I want head of sales with the 10 years of experience, but a lot of it is like producer needed for this script editor needed for that. So if you love podcasting and you love the podcast you're working on, there's a world in which you get an entry-level job in podcasting and you don't have to join a cafe cult or whatever your mom's afraid of happening to you and hang out with all of those horrible people that work at the In-N-Out Burger or whatever, you could get a podcasting job. And that might really dovetail nicely. And I always see new jobs on podnews.net slash jobs.

52:04So go ahead and take a peek there if you're really trying to dig into this industry. And go to Podcast Movement or something like that too. It might be a worthwhile trip to check out the industry and the vendors and all that stuff. You know who wants to be your sugar baby, Gabriel? The amazing sponsors who support this show. We'll be right back. If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and you found the advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all in one place.

52:33JordanHarbinger.com slash deals. You can also email me, Jordan, at JordanHarbinger.com if you're lazy or you can't remember that one thing that you heard on the show. I'll dig that code up for you. That's how important it is that you support those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, next up. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a pastor who manages a few employees in my small church. Most of the time in these environments, people won't give real feedback because, you know, we're Christians and we don't want to be mean, slash insert other dumb reason for being dishonest. I'm not a micromanager and try to be hands-off, but my employees will sometimes ask me how they're doing and if they can do anything better.

53:15I usually tell them that I think they're doing great, and if they have any ideas that fit with our company direction, I'm all for backing them. I just say, great job, sincerely, and move on. But I'm afraid that I'm not actually fostering their ability to grow as professionals, which isn't fair to the people I'm responsible for. I don't want to start nitpicking if there's nothing there, but at the same time, I want to be a good employer who helps them grow and improve our church or whatever church they go work at in the future. Do you have any advice on how to give good feedback as an employer?

53:46Signed, look into diagnose and hopefully say adios to this aversion to giving notes when my flock is asking for a dose. Great question. I love that you're aware of this. I love that you want to invest in these people for such good reasons. You're absolutely right that depriving these people of meaningful feedback is holding them back, especially because they're literally saying, hey, how am I doing? Can I be doing anything better? Usually the answer is not just, nah, Jesus loves you. It's all good, bro. You know, your employees, they're hungry for feedback, which also says a lot about them. So this is a wonderful opportunity for all of you.

54:21I gotta say, I find it so interesting that in these environments, people won't give real feedback because it's, you know, quote unquote, un-Christian. That must be a common cultural thing in environments like these religious institutions or maybe self-help groups, or even I would imagine like group therapy practices or nonprofits where it's like very touchy feeling people want to be kind. And I kind of get it. There are certain environments where the purpose of the place or the ethos of the organization is its intention with the idea of honesty in some respects, or it seems to be. So my first thought is you need to shift your lens on honest criticism here.

54:54Yes, honest feedback can sting a little bit. Sometimes it can ruffle some feathers. It can throw people off. It can be a little tough to take in for some folks. I don't know, man, Would Jesus sugarcoat his feedback or would he tell it like it is, man? No. In fact, a lot of his most famous teachings are pretty tough. Right. Wasn't it like somebody judged this prostitute, I guess, that he was hanging out with and he's like, hey, he who is without sin cast the first stone, which is basically like, hey, shut your face unless you're perfect. If Jesus was your boss, I don't know anything about religion, obviously, but he seems like the kind of guy who'd be like, you know what?

55:28You can do better. And you know how I know that? Because I'm watching you. And that's how I'm going to love you. By telling you that. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, it can throw people off. Like we said, it can be tough to take it, but that doesn't mean it's cruel or you're a bad person for doing it or giving it. In fact, it's the opposite. Giving meaningful feedback to people, especially when it's delivered with love and a genuine desire to see people succeed, that is a huge gift. And again, it's one that your employees are literally asking for. So I think they're ready for it. So I would also take a look at why you've only been settling for this kind of quick, superficial, good job, pat on the back kind of feedback.

56:03Is it because you've been anxious to really give people notes in the context of a church? Or is it because you yourself have been avoiding the potential difficulty and awkwardness of giving feedback? Or is it just something you're not used to doing? And it takes some time and energy to really think about what your employees need to do in order to improve. And you just kind of haven't done it yet. It might even be a mix of all three. But the corner you need to turn is I'm the boss and part of my job is to invest in my people. and I need to give them the gift of meaningful feedback, even if it's a little uncomfortable.

56:35And yeah, not let yourself off the hook by just praising them and moving on and then going home. So in terms of actual tips on giving feedback as an employer, well, first of all, I would take the time to tell your employees what they're doing well, what you're happy with, before you tell them where they can improve. This isn't just some BS version of the compliment sandwich where you say a nice thing and then you say a tough thing and then you say a nice thing and then you call it a day, although I do think the compliment sandwich can be a decent technique. It's got its place. This is about genuinely validating people for what they're doing well so they feel recognized and appreciated before you tell them where they need to improve.

57:12Psychologically, it has a huge impact. It makes the criticism land the right way and it's just a form of respect and kindness. If you've ever been on the receiving end of criticism without any mention of where you're succeeding, you know how much that sucks, even if the feedback you're getting is meaningful and necessary. Oh, totally. I hate that when somebody doesn't take five seconds to tell you what's going well before they dive into all the things they wish you were doing better. It's just like, oh, I'm willing to hear this. But can you just at least acknowledge me for one second? What you hear, though, when people do that is like, well, you already know that and you don't need me to spare your feelings.

57:44And what they mean is I actually have trouble giving praise. I can only give negative feedback and it makes me more comfortable if I'm just the unapologetic bad guy. Or people don't realize that it's worth taking the time to think about what someone's doing well and express it to them. I just find that so interesting. So anyway, yes, I agree with all of that. I would also really nail your tone and your intention in these conversations. So when you sit down with these people, I would literally say, look, I've realized that part of my job is giving you meaningful feedback, which you have asked me for, and which I really appreciate, by the way.

58:12And so I want to chat with you about, yeah, what I think is going really well and where I think we can improve. And before we do that, I just want to say, everything I'm about to share with you is coming from a place of real appreciation for all of your hard work and a genuine desire to see you succeed, not just here, but anywhere you work in the future. And yeah, I just want to make our church as successful and productive as possible. Saying something like that at the top of a conversation about feedback and actually meaning it, of course, is so powerful because that will signal to your employees that this feedback is not just about asserting yourself as the boss or making them feel bad or just checking some box that you haven't checked before.

58:50It's about elevating everybody to perform at the highest possible level. This is something I'm very passionate about. The spirit in which you share feedback really matters. Yes, and then when you actually have these conversations, I would be super specific. I wouldn't be like, hey, look, Clyde, your fundraising presentations, yeah, they need a little zhuzh. Get on that, will ya? Or listen, Eleanor, your weekly newsletters, they could be a little stronger. Give them some more thought. I would take time to really think this through and offer some real pointers. Clyde, you're killing it at the donor outreach.

59:20I love the way you talk to our partners on the phone, but I think your presentations could be stronger. The writing could be a little snappier. The design could be a little more elegant. They need to be shorter. They need to be more impactful. So I want you to study other churches' presentations and see what they're doing well. I want you to take this e-course on PowerPoint. I'd love to review the decks before they go out so we can get two pairs of eyes on them, that kind of thing. Give them some concrete next steps. Come up with a little system or process around the feedback so you can help them put it into practice.

59:49For example, scheduling a monthly review of the presentation right then and there, booking a call to talk through that e-course when he's finished with it, whatever it is. I could go on about this for a while. There's a whole art and science to giving feedback, and I would definitely read up on it online. It's easy to find. But ultimately, this is not rocket surgery. Did you just say rocket surgery? Yeah. Rocket science. Yeah. You'd think I'd know the difference by now, but if I can't get it right at 43, I think that train has sailed. I love that that just slipped out. Didn't you literally say we talked to rocket scientists on the show at the top of the episode?

1:00:21And rocket surgeons is coming up next year. Anyway, half the battle is knowing why you're giving this feedback. The other half is how. So go do this prep, go have these conversations and trust that being radically honest with people is absolutely consistent with the values of a church. Nothing more Christlike than telling Clyde that his PowerPoints suck. Love your attitude. You sound like a great boss and good luck. All right, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, last year, one of my best friends suddenly passed away at age 25 due to COVID. I had moved from the U.S. to France and I learned the news around midnight one night.

1:01:00I was out at a bar celebrating a birthday when a notification flashed across my phone. It was her girlfriend texting me to call her, telling me that my friend had died. Oh, man, that's awful. 25, that is, it's incredibly tragic. that must have been quite a call to receive. So sorry to hear this. Needless to say, I was in complete shock. I spent the next 24 hours in a zombie-like state, tasked with having to call my friends back in the States one by one to deliver the news. It was awful. The morning of her death, before going out that night, I had gotten a haircut. I have not cut my hair since.

1:01:38It's been almost a year. I'll be going to the U.S. soon, and as a gift, my mother booked me an appointment at our favorite salon so that I could do something nice with my hair. As she told me this, I felt a lump rising in my throat. I felt my heart pounding in my chest until I couldn't hold back my tears and started crying. Wow, so clearly the haircut and this loss got linked up in your mind. I can understand that. Yeah, I can understand it too. Also, getting your haircut is kind of intimate, right? I wouldn't know because I'm a guy and I buzz my hair now, but I think I get it. Yeah, the hair thing might be kind of a shortcut to some intense feelings.

1:02:13I understand that not having hair might make this difficult for you to understand, Gabriel. I guess you got a bit of a hair decap. Oh, wow. Okay, you're really on the dad jokes today, eh? But yeah, it's like when you're getting a massage and you randomly tear up or something and you're like, why am I crying at this Burke Williams right now? Anyway, so she goes on. My mom immediately apologized and said she would cancel the appointment. Ever since my friend died, I've known it would be best to see a psychologist to help me with my grief, but I've been procrastinating and I don't quite know why.

1:02:48I'm no stranger to therapy and sadly no stranger to death either. I first went to therapy for two years in high school when I struggled with anxiety and depression after my friend's 18-year-old sister died by suicide. Then at 21, one of my best friends killed herself by jumping off of a building. The art therapist I saw in college was helpful in the aftermath. Oh man, okay, you've experienced a lot of loss in your life and also very tragic loss through two suicides and a young COVID death. This is intense. This is very unusual. So she goes on, this time around though, I can't seem to get myself to do the research and just find somebody to talk to.

1:03:31I always have an excuse. I don't know where to start. I'm busy with work, etc., etc. And I really do need to cut my hair. I mean, it still looks fine, but like, come on. In the previous losses, I never adopted this sort of oddly specific compulsion. I'm not sure why I'm so stuck. It's like, if I cut my hair, will someone else die? Which I know is completely illogical. Why can't I help myself? More importantly, how can I start? signed getting over these shivers about facing the scissors when I'm no beginner at the inner work of figuring out why I'm injured. You know, I actually thought you were going to do like a one word sign off this time.

1:04:11I think it was staring you in the face and you just missed it. Wait, what was it? You ready? Yeah. Lock blocked. Oh, that's good. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Not bad. I should have. But you know, I can't help myself. You can't help yourself. I know. I know. Well, like I said, this is more than anyone should ever have to go through. The fact that you had to notify all your friends one by one after, that must have made this even more painful. You've been through a lot here, and I'm just so sorry that you had to say goodbye to your friend and that this trip home is bringing up some difficult stuff for you.

1:04:45We wanted to run all of this by an expert, so we reached out to the one and only Dr. Aaron Margolis, clinical psychologist, friend of the show, and apparently our new resident expert on being blocked by the locks. I'm also known to the people who know me the best as the f***ing doctor. And Dr. Margolis had the same reaction that we did. She was really saddened to hear about what happened to your friends. Her heart goes out to you. It's interesting. You referred to what you're doing as procrastination, as a compulsion. But Dr. Margolis proposed that we call it what it is. It's avoidance, right?

1:05:18You're avoiding the haircut. You're avoiding going to therapy. And in Dr. Margolis's view, it makes sense that you would want to avoid this. These are profound losses that most people your age never have to go through. So she could understand why opening up this box or doing something that reminds you of the day you got the news, the day you had to make all those calls, that feels incredibly heavy. But as Dr. Margolis put it to us, when a person avoids a certain experience, they're not just avoiding the experience itself. What they're avoiding is the feelings that come with it. You know rationally that a haircut's not going to cause someone's death, but like you said, it's not logical.

1:05:56It's emotional. And the emotional component of this, that's what feels so overwhelming. In your case, it sounds like there's a lot of fear around confronting some of this stuff. Okay. But Dr. Margolis's hunch was that there might also be an element of control here. Like, okay, if I don't get the haircut, someone else isn't going to die. If I don't go to therapy, I won't have to deal with the big chaotic feelings that are going to get dredged up. So this avoidance might be a way to reestablish control in a situation that probably feels very out of control. Death being probably the least controllable thing that any of us will ever experience in life.

1:06:33But as Dr. Margolis put it, avoidance is one of the chief things that maintains symptoms and perpetuates distress. Because when we avoid something, it feels good in the short term, right? When your mom canceled the haircut, you probably felt relief. Great, now I don't have to think about my friend. I don't have to go freaking sit and cry in a Fantastic Sam's. You think her mom was going to take her to Fantastic Sam's? Probably not. It sounds like her mom was going to take her to one of those bougie salons where they serve you cucumber water and ask you about your last breakup before they give you a cut in color.

1:07:02It sounds like a really nice gift, honestly. By the way, for anyone who's from another country and who's going, who is Fantastic Sam? Fantastic Sam's is just a chain of barber shops in the States, and it's very nostalgic. Right, that advertised on TV because it's like$12 for a bowl cut or something. You go when you're 12, you get your hair buzzed like Gabe, low maintenance. I do it myself, just so you know, but I could go there if I wanted to. But yeah, exactly. Not the kind of place where the barber is going to ask you how therapy is going when they hand you a nice glass of rosé. No, you're in and out.

1:07:33I think it's probably 20-some dollars now. No shade on Fedtastic Sams. I'm sure they're great. Point is, short-term, avoidance feels good. long term, it prevents you from realizing that a lot of your fears will not come to pass. And then you don't learn how to cope with those fears appropriately. And that can make your world very small or smaller. And as we all know, the longer you avoid something, the scarier it becomes. That's true of loaded haircuts. It's true of therapy. It's true of getting on an airplane, facing a phobia, going on first dates. This really cuts across diagnoses. So the question Dr.

1:08:08Margolis wanted you to ask yourself is, What feels so scary about facing these big feelings? Of course, it's going to suck sometimes. It's uncomfortable. It's sad. Therapy obviously brings up difficult material, but it would be helpful to get clear about what specifically feels hard about talking these days. Look, maybe it's just that more sadness feels too overwhelming right now. Okay. Maybe you're afraid that if you dig into what this loss is bringing up for you, you'll have to confront your own mortality. You know best, but it's interesting. You've been willing to feel these feelings before.

1:08:41So it does sound like there's something about this go around that's making therapy feel particularly aversive. So Dr. Margolis shared a few things you can do to overcome some of this avoidance. We've already talked about the first thing, just recognizing that avoidance only makes things harder. Short-term pain in the service of long-term gain, that's the key. Another thing is turning to any coping strategies or distress tolerance skills that you've learned before. Things that can help you tolerate the anxiety of going through these experiences. For example, maybe your mom doesn't cancel the appointment, but she goes with you.

1:09:13You have a friend there. You're not alone. Or you go to the appointment alone, but you talk to a friend before you walk in. You meditate in the car for a few minutes, whatever's your flavor. Ground yourself a little. Or maybe you tell the hairstylist, hey, I've been going through something intense. So if I just weirdly start crying while you shampoo my hair, thanks in advance for putting up with me. Give yourself a little space to be messy, invite him in a little, that kind of thing. Also, Dr. Margolis said that when you do begin therapy, you can literally say, look, there's this thing I need to talk about, but I'm not quite ready.

1:09:44I could use some help in understanding my resistance to talking about it. That might also make therapy a little bit less daunting. Right. She doesn't need to dive into the deep end in session one, right, from the jump. I just want to talk about her mom for one moment. This decision to cancel the appointment is also interesting. Yeah, I kind of got a little whiff of that. She was like, I can't do it. And her mom was like, yep, can't do it. Got it, canceled right now. I'm sure her mom had good intentions there. She wanted to protect you from feeling distress. And look, sometimes that's kind and that's appropriate.

1:10:13But in this case, her canceling the appointment is also kind of working against your progress. It seems to me that she's in some sense colluding with your avoidance in an interesting way. Right, but you know, as a parent, I totally get it. When I see Jaden or Juniper crying, I want to do everything I can to make them feel better. Your knee-jerk reaction as a parent is usually, oh, I need to eliminate the thing that's causing the suffering. It's just how we're wired. Sure, of course. But there's another way, which is, I can see that this haircut is freaking you out. I get that it's hard. Before I cancel the appointment, though, do you want to talk about it?

1:10:49Do you want me to go with you? Is there some way you can feel sad and get your haircut after a year? Right. It looks like mom's helping her run away from this. And I'm sure that's coming from a good place, but I don't think it's really serving her. It also makes me wonder if mom might have done that for her daughter her whole life or is doing that in other ways. That might also be a key to figuring out the quote-unquote procrastination. You know, maybe our friend here doesn't have as much practice hanging in the tension of these difficult experiences if mom was often there to jump in really quickly and ease her distress or just let her off the hook.

1:11:22Oh, yeah, good point. Could be. All the more reason to start leaning into it more. So Dr. Margolis' final thought for you was have some compassion for yourself here. This is the third traumatic death you've experienced in your young life. So starting small is totally okay. Give yourself a little grace here. This is tough. If you can't make a therapy appointment tomorrow, maybe you just do some Googling. Maybe you ask a friend for a referral. You don't have to do everything all at once. And by the way, grace doesn't just mean I'm not going to do this hard thing because I don't want to suffer. This isn't about creating a situation where you never have to feel this pain.

1:11:56This is about the way in which you'll hold that pain. It's going, okay, I'm going to be really freaking sad today. I'm going to be scared. It makes sense that I'm scared, but I'm going to do my best because I want to live a full life. And if I can't do it all today, that's okay. I'm going to try again tomorrow. In fact, Dr. Margolis said there's good research to support the fact that self-compassion is a stronger and more consistent motivator than shame is. To quote Dr. Margolis one last time here, the goal is not to get rid of the emotion when you do these things. It's about feeling the emotion and doing the thing anyway.

1:12:28Not to torture yourself, but again, to prevent your life from getting too small or being paralyzed by fear. So take care of yourself, start small, baby steps and all that, and be patient, but also be courageous. Again, I'm so sorry about everything you've been through. Life is so intense sometimes. I wish none of this had ever happened, but now that you're here, it's time to lean in and find out what's on the other side. And you can do this. I know it. We're sending you a big hug, and we're wishing you all the best. Big thanks to Dr. Margolis as well for her wisdom and advice. Dr. Margolis is seeing patients in Los Angeles and virtually throughout California.

1:13:03You can learn more about her and her approach at drarinmargolis.com. Hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everybody who wrote in this week and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. Go back and check out Dr. Ken Adams if you haven't yet. Six Minute Networking over at sixminutenetworking.com. Dig that well before you're thirsty, folks. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago and I wish I'd leaned in a hell of a lot harder. It's free on the Thinkific platform. No nonsense. No credit card number necessary. Just a few drills that even if you do the first couple drills, going to be a game changer for you.

1:13:326minutenetworking.com. Show notes and transcripts at jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, discounts, ways to support the show at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. I'm at jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show.

1:14:07Ditto Corbin Payne. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love, and if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show about how technology can augment our brains and allow the blind to see, the deaf to hear. The conscious mind just gets access to the very top little bit, the newspaper headlines. And the reason is, you know, you've got almost 100 billion neurons.

1:14:41Neurons are the specialized cell type in the brain. These are doing incredibly complicated things. And by incredibly complicated, I mean things we haven't even scratched the surface of yet in terms of the algorithms that they're running that make us up. I don't think we could even function at our scale of space and time if we had access to that level of detail. I mean, you can't keep 100 billion things in mind, and each one of these neurons is talking about 10 ,000 of its neighbors. I mean, just look at riding a bicycle. If you really pay attention, okay, how exactly am I moving my... You'll probably crash.

1:15:11If you play a musical instrument, you know that if you start paying attention to what your fingers are doing, you're dead. You can't do it anymore because what's happening is so fast and sophisticated that you can't possibly address that with the slow low bandwidth consciousness This has to be something that the rest of your brain takes care of and just does for you These are all zombie routines are just completely automatized Most of them we'd never even have access to the vest is probably our best bet for the next 50 years or something until we figure out better ways to get deeper in there and plug things directly into the brain.

1:15:45But that is not as easy as people think. We're just now at this moment in history, for the first time in billions of years, where we can suddenly feed in completely new senses to the brain. And a year from now, the human species starts proliferating into all these different kinds of experiences that can be had. To learn how it's possible to create completely new superhuman senses, check out episode 655 with David Eagleman on the Jordan Harbinger show.