961: Dark Prognosis of Friend's Postpartum Psychosis | Feedback Friday

23:07given what you're going through right now. Emma killed her baby while she was psychotic. That's a fact. It's a very tragic fact. You and your wife are struggling to conceive. That's another fact, a very challenging one, and also one that could change one day. Now, if you want to find some connection between these two things, if looking for meaning in that is helpful to you in some way, great, totally fair. I mean, look, for example, maybe Emma's story gives you an even greater appreciation for life and for being healthy. Maybe it makes you even more certain that you guys want a child and that you guys are going to be great parents.

23:41Maybe the story makes you think about how to surround yourselves with the right support so that if anything like this ever happens to you guys, you're going to be much better equipped. Although given the statistics, I really would not stay up at night worrying about that. It's just so rare. But those are a few productive meanings you could create from this story. Less productive meanings are the world is cruel, the world is unjust. I mean, how could this happen if it caused Emma to kill her child while it won't allow us to conceive? Or how did we not get the chance to adopt her baby if she didn't really want it?

24:13I totally understand why those meanings occur, but you guys get to decide what you want to take away from this experience and whether these two events even belong in the same universe. Yeah, that's a good point, Gabe. First of all, I mean, just to sort of handle the, nobody kills their baby and thinks this is a better option than giving it up for adoption, Right. There's no logical connection thought going on with this. We talk a lot on the show about the stories we tell ourselves, the narratives we create, when they're helpful, when they're limiting. And in this case, the tempting narrative is that what Emma did has some bearing on what our friend and his wife are going through because we're meaning making machines and yada, yada, right?

24:50Patternicity. I get that. It highlights their struggle. But to your point, we also have to be disciplined about which dots we connect. Right. Just because the dots are near each other doesn't mean that they're necessarily related. Right. Struggling to conceive is hard enough. You don't also need to torture yourself by fixating on how ironic and cruel it was that somebody else hurt their own child, as tempting as that might be. And I am so sorry that your friend went through this, that you guys just had to watch it all unfold. It's truly extraordinary. It's absolutely heartbreaking. Very few people, thank God, will ever go through something like this.

25:26but if they do or they know someone who does or they're married to somebody who does, I hope this story helps them find the support they need to take care of their child and get healthy again. That support exists. Most of these stories do not end in a mother murdering her child. My heart just breaks that Emma's story went a different way. Mine too. And by the way, if anybody's interested, we're going to link to some of those postpartum psychosis stories in the show notes. They're pretty intense, but they're very eye-opening. And I have to say, they actually gave me a lot of hope that recovery is absolutely possible, very common.

25:58And like Jordan said, most of these stories don't end up in a tragedy like this. Yeah, I'm with you. I hope this topic gets more coverage because it really is fascinating and it's obviously incredibly important. Jen and I had never heard of this. And when Jen heard about this, she was kind of like, I've had intrusive thoughts. And I was like, really? And she's like, yeah, I mean, they go away. You just like, you realize, whoa, that's kind of a scary thing I just thought about. But imagine if you are in a place where you can't control that. That's what that is, essentially. Boy, I am still reeling from this one, Gabe.

26:29I'm going to have to shake this off. I literally want to go hug my kids, I think, before we tackle the rest of these questions because it's just, it's getting to me. And in good conscience, I really don't think I can make a joke in this ad pivot. Even Dark Jordan is not that dark. So stick around for a word from our sponsors and we'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by 1-800-CONTACT. You know that last pair of contacts panic? My wife, Jen, knows it way too well. She's had these mornings where she's out of contacts and stuck wearing these old glasses. She's got to keep wiping clean with her sleeve.

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29:00JordanHarbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. And now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a 19-year-old in a relationship with a wonderful girl, and we share moments of genuine happiness together. But for the last three years, there's been a lingering issue. I have feelings for another girl. This unrequited love has become a burden and causes me distress. I genuinely care for my current partner, and our relationship is built on mutual respect and happiness. But these unresolved feelings for someone else create a conflict within me that is difficult to ignore.

29:40I'm torn between the desire to maintain the happiness I have with my current partner and the longing for a love that seems unattainable. It's left me questioning my emotions, values, and the potential impact on both individuals. How would you navigate such a delicate emotional landscape? How can I reconcile these conflicting emotions and make decisions that prioritize the well-being of those I care about? Signed, Embrangled and Trying to Untangle, this confusing triangle. Huh. Interesting. Okay. Is it just me or is this letter just sort of weirdly light on details? No, it's not just you. It's sort of bare bones, isn't it?

30:20Yeah. It's part of why I chose it. I wanted to talk about this with you. Okay. What's going on in here? Let's get into it. Yeah. All right. Fine. So I can certainly understand the conflict that you're in. You're not the first young buck to be caught between two does. Am I getting my deer terminology right? Not really a deer guy. Anyway. Actually, I think you nailed it. Bucks and does. Bucks and does. It sounds right to me. Being in a relationship with one person while having feelings for somebody else is very stressful, and it can be confusing, it can bring up a lot of guilt and sadness, and it puts distance between you and your partner, which obviously sucks for both of you.

30:51So first of all, if you're having feelings for somebody else, the first thing you need to do is dig into them and get clear about whether these feelings speak more to this other woman or more to any deficiencies in your current relationship. You said you're with a wonderful girl, and I'm sure what you guys have is nice, obviously, or you wouldn't be feeling this conflict. But you also said that you, quote, share moments of genuine happiness together. That kind of jumped out at me. Just moments? It's not an overall pretty consistent happy vibe? I don't know. I might be reading into that one sentence too much.

31:24Maybe you didn't mean that you're only happy in moments, but that does seem to be a clue to how you feel about your girlfriend. Right. I mean, when you're in a truly happy relationship, you don't say, we have moments of genuine happiness. You say we're genuinely happy, right? Right. It's just an interesting way to put it. And hey, maybe there's a language barrier here. Is it possible that English isn't his first language? And you never know how Google Translate is going to spin your relationship drama in the Feedback Friday inbox. I'm also a little puzzled by our relationship is built on mutual respect and happiness.

31:56I mean, OK, I hope so. What else is it built on or should it be built on? All interesting turns of phrase coming from a guy who has his eye on somebody else. The second thing you need to do is get clear about whether you want to act on these feelings, whether this other woman might share them or could share them. You've really given us precious little to go on here. But reading between the lines, I'm not getting a strong sense that this woman is orbiting you two just waiting in the wings. Right. He said he's longing for a love that seems unattainable. Unattainable. Right. So I don't know what to make of that.

32:29But does it seem unattainable because he's already in a relationship and he's holding himself back or because it would take some effort to pursue this other woman or she's like not interested. I don't know. Right. That's my question. Is it unattainable because she just doesn't share his feelings? And so he's just left with his longing for her. Right. It's unclear. But I think if they were talking and he was getting a vibe that he might have included that in his letter, my sense is he's over here in this relationship, just low key pining for this other woman. And she's way over there, unaware that he even feels that way.

32:59It's funny, Jordan. He's asking us how to navigate such a quote-unquote delicate emotional landscape, but I'm not really getting a good feel for this delicate emotional landscape in his letter. No, I'm getting kind of the opposite. His letter is very factual and it's a little distant. It might, to your point, it might just be the way he writes or a language thing, but he strikes me as very kind of formal, very logical, a little abstract. Yeah, same. I'm not getting a warm and gooey or super vulnerable from this letter. And I get that this is how human feelings work. and our relationship operates like this and I'm caught between two irreconcilable goods.

33:32It's a little Sheldon Cooper, I think. And I'm not trying to be mean, but it's sort of like analytical. Yeah, it's a big bang theory without any other banging. Yeah. Which is the worst pun I've ever made in my life. But look, all of that is fine. I'm not trying to make you feel bad or anything. It's just hard not to notice that this might be part of your personality or how you're looking at things. And so this is a little bit of a reach, but my question is, are those qualities playing a role in how you relate to your girlfriend right now? Are they informing how you imagine this other woman might feel about you?

34:04Is this part of why you feel this other relationship is unattainable? Because maybe these emotions are a little bit hard to understand or talk about. If any of that fits, this little crisis might be a nice opportunity to get more in touch with your feelings, your girlfriend's feelings, your experience of this conflict that you feel. Honestly, the quality of your relationships in general, these confusing feelings you have for this other woman, in addition to being feelings for her, I think they're also very good data for you. That's exactly right. So my take on situations like this is, if you're having feelings for someone else, then you're probably not in the right relationship.

34:40Or you need to do some work to sort through whatever's not working in your current relationship and just work on that. Dude, especially at 19 years old, you're so young, man. And if you're not 100 % psyched about the person you're with, now is definitely the time to be exploring different relationships and feelings without tying yourself into knots. You're not 43 with two kids or whatever and you're like, I'm questioning my, you know, come on, man. Not to be disrespectful, but you're a kid. Enjoy that part. That's one of the cool things about being a kid. Commitments are just, you know, paper thin sometimes.

35:09In general, I've found that any feelings you have for somebody else while you're in a committed relationship, they usually reveal needs of your own and cracks in the relationship more than they do virtues in the other person. You could replace that other person with pretty much anybody. Very well said. And that's even truer if the other person is not available or does not share your feelings. Right. So either you use them to understand what's going on in your own relationship or you decide to pursue this other person and see if she might share your feelings. Those are basically your two options.

35:39But if you do pursue her, I highly recommend that you end your current relationship first. It's the right thing to do. And that's one way to prioritize the well-being of those you care about, as you said, even though breaking up would probably be quite sad. But again, if you go that route, please make sure it's because you're realizing that this isn't the right relationship, not just because you want to be with this other specific person or try that. Who might not be available anyway. Exactly. You do have a third option here, which is to sit with these feelings for a little while, figure out why they're so compelling, whether they're appropriate, whether you have them for somebody who's available and interested.

36:14And if the answer is no, then the next step is to learn how to put those feelings to bed, whether you stay with your girlfriend or not. Yeah, it's a good point. Putting certain feelings to bed is also an important process sometimes. And that might be part of making himself more available to his girlfriend, if that's part of the gap in their relationship. But again, like I said, he's 19. He's learning all this stuff for the first time. It's okay to be confused. It's okay to be awkward. It's okay to not handle this perfectly. This is how you learn. Just be kind, thoughtful, and honest along the way with yourself and with everyone involved.

36:47Good luck. You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job quite a bit easier. If you just found out your sister slept with your boyfriend before you got together, you're wondering whether to support a plea deal for your brother-in-law's extortionist, or you've just discovered that your tax evading husband on probation has been hiding guns in the walls of your home. Fascinating stuff from last week. I keep thinking about that one. Hit us up Friday at Jordan Harbinger dot com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.

37:17OK, what's next? Hey, Jordan and Gabe. Over the past year, my bond with my 14 year old niece has really developed. Her mother, my sister, has faced significant challenges in her life, including a dangerous and abusive relationship with her daughter's father. That relationship ended dramatically when he assaulted her and threatened her life. As a result, my sister struggles with unresolved issues, which have caused her to self-isolate and struggle with trust. Her vulnerability also makes her prone to believing in conspiracy theories. I care deeply for my sister, but interacting with her requires a careful approach.

37:57When she discusses unconventional ideas, I listen, but I also share my perspective, explaining calmly why I find certain ideas implausible. She usually accepts this without resistance, but she's overly suspicious and often jumps to conclusions, almost as if she believes the world is against her. Recently, my niece confided in me, very upset, about something my sister told her, that her father, if given a chance, would sexually abuse her. Okay, interesting. So obviously concerning, but also a complicated piece of information to get from a source like this. Yeah, hard to know how much stock to put in that, given the source.

38:34So she goes on. This has left my niece extremely anxious and suspicious. Her father is now seeking overnight visits despite having to drive six hours for court-approved visits once a week, which seems to be causing my sister great distress. She also mentioned that her ex's father accompanies him on these visits. as he doesn't trust his son with his daughter either. My sister also says that all of the gifts her ex buys their daughter, like an iPhone and an iPad, is to love bomb her. The truth of the situation is unclear to me. I've heard troubling accounts about the father from my sister, and I don't think she's lying, but sometimes I question the accuracy of her interpretations.

39:16So does my niece, who's been sharing how disturbed she feels hearing all of this from her mother. I'm torn now between believing my sister's paranoid tendencies, which might be valid, and the possibility of the unthinkable here. I've been suggesting family therapy, a new concept for them, and my sister is somewhat receptive to it. Should my sister be telling her daughter this? How can I know if what she's saying about her father is true? And how can I reassure my niece when she's troubled by these thoughts during her weekly visits with her dad? Signed, Sizing Up My Sis, when her ideas are hit or miss.

39:50but not wanting to be remiss if I dismiss her legit fit about the fact that her ex is the pits. Right. Yeah, this is a tricky sitch. That might be the longest sign-off you've ever had, by the way. Yeah, but you also kind of added to it by saying sitch. Yeah, that's true. It was like kind of an accident. It goes on for days. So if this thing about your niece's father is true, obviously it's a huge concern. He does have a track record of being dangerous and abusive, so this fear is not completely outlandish on its face. On the other hand, your sister's a bit of an unreliable narrator, right? She's prone to kooky ideas, faulty logic, jumping to weird conclusions, I guess you could say.

40:28So it's really hard to know how seriously to take this claim. And that obviously puts you in a very tough situation as well as your niece. And I feel for you. We wanted to run all this by an expert, so we reached out to the one and only Dr. Aaron Margolis, clinical psychologist and friend of the show. I am also known to the people who know me the best as the f***ing doctor. And Dr. Margolis confirmed that this is indeed a sad and scary situation, but it's also a confusing one. So we started by asking her, should your sister be telling her daughter that her dad might abuse her? And Dr. Margolis was honest with us.

41:03She said she didn't know. She felt she'd need a lot more context to weigh in on that. more information about the father, about your sister, about your niece, about all their history together. But she did say that your niece's personality plays a big role here. If she's an emotionally mature 14-year-old, that's far different from, say, a developmentally disabled 14-year-old. Her vulnerability would be different. Her ability to understand the situation with her father and potentially defend herself would be different. Her capacity to sit with this information and form her own conclusions would be different.

41:34But the reality is, your niece has already been told this thing about her father. So it's like, what are you going to do? Tell your sister not to tell her daughter? Tell your niece to just forget about what she heard about her dad? That is not going to change anything at this point. You also can't know for sure whether what your sister said about her ex is even true. And that's really frustrating. And it's got to make you feel quite powerless here. So Dr. Margolis felt the better question might be, what was the function of your sister telling your niece this thing about her dad. What I'm wondering is, was it really to protect her from a guy who has a history of violence?

42:11Or is this another one of your sister's questionable slash paranoid slash conspiratorial opinions, and she's trying to achieve something here? For example, is she painting herself as the better parent, the safer parent? Is she trying to get back at her ex-husband for what he did to her? Is she trying to sabotage of the weekly visits? Is she trying to feel more secure or empowered by being, you know, quote unquote, in the know about certain difficult facts or whatever, which, by the way, very common with conspiratorial thinkers. I get it. Oh, that's a good point. Right. Yeah. The question is, is this a real legitimate piece of information that she is highlighting to protect her daughter?

42:49Or is this perhaps some kind of tactic to secure her daughter's loyalty and possibly turn her against her father or something like that. Right. It could be, which would be somewhat understandable given how terribly this guy treated the mom when they were together. I mean, the dude does not sound like a healthy or safe person, but that also doesn't mean he's a daughter molester either. Exactly right. That's true. Even if he is incapable of this really terrible thing that mom is afraid of. But, you know, I hold this alongside that other detail that when the dad buys his daughter something, the mom thinks it's love bombing.

43:22I mean, it's possible that it is. it's also possible that he's just buying his daughter a gift. Especially because he doesn't live with them anymore. Who knows? The problem is our friend's sister has a very specific lens through which she interprets things, right? Including and especially her ex's behavior. And again, I can appreciate why. I'm not trying to defend this guy, okay? This dude assaulted and threatened to kill her. He's a POS. So she's not completely wrong for having her guard up, but... But her anger toward him, her fear, that might be coloring. otherwise relatively innocent aspects of his relationship with his daughter.

43:57Yeah, and separating all of that out is really hard. There's something similar going on with the fact that the grandfather tags along for their visits. The mother thinks that that's confirmation that the grandfather doesn't trust his son around his daughter, but he might just be tagging along because he wants to see his granddaughter. That was kind of my thought. I mean, here's the thing. Did he actually say that to the sister? Did he literally go, look, I'm concerned about Tim, okay? I don't like the idea of him being alone with Natalie. I'm going to tag along to keep an eye on things so you don't have to worry.

44:26Right. Or was he just like, man, it's a long drive for Tim and I'd love to see Natalie too. So I'm going to come along if that's all right. And the mom's like, see, even his own father doesn't trust him. That's why he's got it. So look, it's so hard to know how much of this is the mom spinning a yarn and how much this is grounded in actual evidence. And I will say normally I would just never believe the abuser's version of events because these people are, you know, kind of crappy. But the mom has this weird sort of believing in all kinds of weird other dumb crap. So it's like, oh, you've really shot your credibility in the foot big time.

45:00We're back to that theme of competing narratives, unreliable narrators and how to reconcile different versions of the same story. It's so tricky. Also, we're back to the theme of which stories we choose to tell and which ones we choose to believe. So how can you reassure your niece when she's troubled by these thoughts about her dad? Well, Dr. Margolis wasn't sure that you can. because, again, the cat is already out of the bag. Her mom has already said this thing to her. You just don't know how dangerous her father truly is. You also don't know whether anything you say is actually going to reassure your niece at this point.

45:33So Dr. Margolis' take was that it's probably more important to appreciate what your niece thinks about all of this. She was curious to know, has your niece ever said that she feels uncomfortable or in danger when she's around her dad? Has he said anything or done anything that's made her feel unsafe? Does having your grandfather at these visits make her feel better? Your niece's experience of all of this, that's a really important gauge. If she says, no, my dad actually doesn't make me feel that way at all. It's actually nice and normal when we hang out. Then maybe you can help her trust her instincts and stay connected to them alongside these troubling thoughts and perhaps tell her, mom, mom, I appreciate your concern, but I'm not worried about dad and I don't feel unsafe.

46:14On the other hand, if she says, actually, you know, I do kind of feel weird around him. And sometimes he says inappropriate stuff. He makes weird jokes or he looks at me in a weird way, or I'm so glad grandpa's there because I don't like being alone with dad. Anything like that. Then I would encourage your niece to trust her gut and speak up about whether she wants to see her dad. And if she does see him under what conditions, Dr. Margolis's big insight was that the real question you're probably asking here is how do I not feel so powerless in this situation? Because when we feel powerless or we feel out of control, we often want to take action, right?

46:49We want to do something, something concrete, something immediate, something decisive. But oftentimes we don't realize that just listening to somebody, being there for them, providing emotional support, that's also doing something. And it's doing something very important. Her take was that the most important thing you can do for your niece is to continue to just be there for her and let her know that if anything ever happens, you're going to be her advocate. You're going to be her protector. You're going to be her friend. And part of that is gathering this information from her. I mean, she's a more reliable source and frankly, a more relevant source of information here.

47:22This special bond that you have with her is wonderful. I mean, she came to you with this information. So you're in a great position to take that in and say, I hear you. So what do you think? How do you feel? And what do you want? And then to decide what to do, if anything. Agreed. But look, hey, if you find out that her father has done something to his daughter or he has a history of hurting people in this way, especially kids, yeah, you intervene more strongly. You call your sister, you tell her you have your niece come and stay with you if she needs to. You call the cops, you call CPS, you report this guy, whether or not anything has already happened to your niece.

47:55But right now, based on what you shared, nothing has happened. And I don't want to be that guy who's like, yeah, wait till somebody gets molested or assaulted before you do it. I mean, that's not what I'm saying here. There just doesn't seem to be a history of any sexual abuse. And it just doesn't sound like you have compelling evidence that this would likely happen. It almost sounds like your sister read some crap on the internet and was like, oh, people who do this one thing can also do this other thing. And it's like dot, dot, dot, or invisible dot, invisible dot, non-existent dot connected.

48:23He's going to attack my daughter. I mean, it's just, I understand why she's concerned, but is it credible? Dr. Margolis also pointed out that your niece's feelings would probably play a role in any custody decisions between her parents. She's under 18, so a court doesn't necessarily have to do what she wants, of course, but she is old enough that a court would probably take her feelings into consideration when deciding which parents she lives with, whether she gets to see her dad, how often, what the conditions are. So being able to articulate her feelings, making sure the adults in her life are attuned to them, Dr.

48:55Margolis said that that's really important. So that's how you can help the most right now and gather the data you need to decide whether you should intervene more strongly. By the way, your niece is very lucky to have you looking out for her, especially with parents like these. Sending you both a hug, wishing you all the best, and big thanks to Dr. Margolis for her wisdom and advice. Dr. Margolis is seeing patients in Los Angeles and virtually throughout California. You can learn more about her and her approach at DrAaronMargolis.com. You know it's a great way to buy your child's love, Gabriel.

49:25The amazing products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all searchable and clickable at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Or you can email me jordan at jordanharbinger.com. Hey, if you're lazy, you can't remember the name of the sponsor, I will happily dig up that code for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show.

49:56All right, now back to Feedback Friday. What's next? Hello, Jordan and Gabe. I recently got a huge opportunity at work. I've been tapped to be the lead consulting architect for a very cool project for a Fortune 10 company. This is hands down the most interesting and important project I've ever gotten to work on. Well, that's super exciting. Well done, man. The problem is that I'm now drowning in non-disclosure agreements, NDAs. We aren't even allowed to use the company's real name on internal communications. I can't talk about the nature of the project, who it's for, or what I do as part of it.

50:32I've been trying over the last year and a half to focus on networking and being more authentic. It's changed my life for the better, but this exciting work development is going to make that complicated. How can I still be authentic in my relationship building when I'm not allowed to talk about one of the biggest aspects of my life, as dictated by a hyper-litigious megacorporation? Signed, a clandestine consultant attempting to comport candidly. What, Verizon isn't going to allow you to talk about their new cellular towers in Afghanistan? Stan? What a drag, man. I'm playing. He didn't tell us. That wasn't in the letter, no.

51:05Yeah, he didn't tell us that either, just for clarity here. So it's a good question. Tons of people deal with this challenge, whether they work in government or they have a security clearance or they're working for a stealth startup and they need to protect certain information. It's a little tricky, but honestly, this doesn't need to be a huge obstacle. We wanted to talk to somebody who's had a lot of experience networking while dealing with NDAs, So we reached out to a buddy of ours, a former senior official on the National Security Council at the White House, who now works in the biotech world.

51:35He, of course, asked to stay anonymous, which is kind of perfect in a segment about how to talk about your work without talking about your work. So the first thing our friend said was, go read the NDA in detail. Figure out how long the term is, what the scope of it is, how much it really constrains you. Maybe it's only a year and then you can talk about your work. Fine. Maybe you can talk about the general work without going into the details. I know you said they're strict, but in what ways are they strict? Our friend's take is, even if you can't talk about what you're doing or who you're doing it for, you can almost always still talk about your skills, your general experience.

52:11So if you're a solutions architect or an engineer or whatever, you can talk about what programming languages you use, the kinds of analysis you're doing, the general hardware you're working with, the project management that goes into your job. Obviously, you can't say, I'm working on a new AI solution for Google that's going to write people's emails for them before they even ask. I don't know. But you can say, I'm working with a Fortune 10 company to design a cool new product. I'm using Python. I'm architecting the whole back end. I'm managing X people to do Y work, whatever it is. Our friend said that he knows, you know, literal CIA officers who, of course, are not allowed to talk about their work, but they can still talk about their skills in interviews.

52:50They can still write their resumes with the CIA's approval. They can still talk about their knowledge, their leadership. So in his view, you're probably being overly conservative about this. To quote him here, nobody really cares. No matter how secretive you think things are, they're usually not that secretive. And that's coming from a guy who was, yeah, literally in the room for some truly high level and terrifying ish at the highest levels of government. So I really wouldn't sweat this too much, man. And also, nobody cares that much where you work. They care about the problems you are solving.

53:22Whether you have technical chops, whether you're reliable, where you're doing this work is secondary. Fortune 10 company or Fortune 50 company or just massive corporation you've definitely heard of. That kind of says it all. And if you're truly concerned, book a 15-minute consult with a lawyer. Have them weigh in on your NDA. They'll tell you what you can and cannot say, and then you can sleep at night. Yeah, I agree. I think he's being overly cautious here. More importantly, I'm not sure that these NDAs really have much bearing on whether you're authentic with people. I know you want to be open.

53:52You don't want to be cagey. You don't want to have to tell a whole story to cover up what you do. I get it. But there's a way to be discreet and still be authentic. You can also just come right out and say, well, my client is super protective, kind of paranoid, and they made us sign all these NDAs. So I want to be respectful of that. But yeah, basically, I'm the lead consulting architect for a really big company, and I'm helping them build this really cool new product that's going to make their users' lives a whole lot easier. And then just maybe you give them more information if they even ask.

54:21If you can't be authentic by being totally transparent, then I would just be transparent about the fact that you can't be totally transparent because in this case, that's what's authentic. Exactly. Just call it out rather than trying to hide the ball. But also to quote our friend here again, oversharing about your work, that doesn't make you authentic either. So keep that in mind too. Yeah, that was also a great point. And again, I'm just not convinced that these NDAs need to dictate his authenticity. They only dictate how he talks about his work. And even then, they might not hold him back in the ways that really count.

54:54And hey, congrats on the new gig. I hope you do allow yourself to brag about this new gig safely, because it sounds very cool. And break a leg, as long as that's not also prohibited by your NDA. Can you imagine they're like, do not snowboard, because you're not allowed to break any bones for the next 18 months because we need you to deliver our new AI tool. Thank you. That's right. Yeah. And you can't do that sitting down or something. All right. Next up. All right. So you guys probably remember that a couple months ago, we took a letter from a woman whose psychiatrist tried to start a sexual relationship with her.

55:28Yeah. Classy Dr. Skeezy McCreepenstein. That's the one, the one and only. The guy who apparently was writing a lot more than just prescriptions. So just to remind everybody, our friend wrote in and she shared that she had this history of people pleasing. She had a history of relationships with older men in positions of power, which apparently this doctor knew about. And she had very graphic emails from him that were extremely incriminating. I just have to say, what a slime bucket again. Oh, you have problems saying no to men in positions of power. Well, here's what I think you should do. Take off all your clothes and send me some nudes.

56:03I mean, what an actual just horrible guy. Anyway, so she was wondering whether to report him to the board or just let it go and move on because he's old. He's going to retire soon. That's right. And also because she didn't know if she had the energy to dredge the whole horrible experience up again. So we gave her a few thoughts with Dr. Aaron Margolis's help. And we told her that whatever she decided to do was fair. You know, if she wanted to report him, that's fair. And there were some good reasons to do that. And if she wanted to process this in her own way and leave it in the past, that was also fair.

56:33So she reached out to us again and she wrote, hi guys, your response to my question was very helpful. I feel like a lot of times I have your voices in my head when I'm thinking through things, but this time I actually needed to hear your advice out loud. Sorry to interrupt Gabe, but this is so funny. What do our voices sound like in a listener's head? Like, are we actually in there talking to you? I always one to this. I like to think so. I like to think that before somebody does something totally reckless, they hear us going, well, first of all, I totally understand why you would want to run your boyfriend over in your car twice, but you know, I got to tell you.

57:10Yeah, but I got to tell you, not a great idea, Linda. Time to go to therapy, betterhelp.com slash Jordan, because if you're hearing our voices in your head, the least you can do is hear our promo codes from our sponsors as Yeah, exactly. Signed, the voices in your head stopping you from having your rights read because your boyfriend's dead. How about that? Not bad. Did you just freestyle that? Yeah, dude. Off the dome, son. Not bad, man. The sign-off king over here. Anyway, I'm sorry to jump in. I'm just very touched that you have us running a program of running a chat GP, Gabe GPT in your head.

57:44That's just so funny to me and awesome. I hope the sound quality is as good in your head as it is on the actual show. Yeah. Hey, we got a little bit of room noise. Jays can't edit your brainwaves. Not yet. Not yet, but we're definitely heading in that direction. So she goes on.

58:20But I figured that just because one of those beliefs was associated with very strong negative emotions, that didn't make it more right for me. Man, this is such a great insight. Not just recognizing that you had this binary way of thinking, but this idea that just because a belief is associated with strong negative feelings, that doesn't necessarily make it right. Totally. Yeah. It just makes it more compelling sometimes or more charged. Exactly. But if you unpack a belief and you figure out why those negative feelings exist around it, whether it's fear or shame or just a vague unease, and then figure out what those feelings are trying to tell you, what function they're serving, then you're in a much better position to go, huh, is this belief actually true?

59:02Do I actually need to hold it? Which sounds like exactly what you did. So, hey, well done. So awesome. So she goes on. I do have these nagging feelings that what my psychiatrist did wasn't quote-unquote bad enough for nebulous punishment, probably because it happened to me, whereas I would feel more strongly if it happened to a friend of mine. Yeah, working on that in therapy. Well, by the way, very common what you just described. I think most of us are like that to some degree. I think it can be hard to measure how bad something is when we're the one going through it. Right. It's classic can't read the label from inside the jar situation.

59:40Right. I think that's a great way to get clarity on something like this. You think, should I be mad about this? Okay, well, how would it feel if this happened to your best friend or your partner or your child? Yes. Good litmus test. So she goes on, but it did feel better to know that reporting him wouldn't automatically result in the worst case scenario. So after hearing your advice, I wrote up the complaint and mailed it in. Wow. Congratulations. That's huge. So look, we supported you either way. You know that. But the facts of your story were so stark and so disturbing that I was like, oh gosh, this guy has to be held accountable.

1:00:16And I do think there are significant upsides to reporting. Namely, first of all, you're protecting other patients from this creep. But it also took a lot of courage on your part. So I'm proud of you for going through with it. It seems like you stretched yourself a little bit and hopefully feel good about that. One unexpected benefit to having made the decision is the sudden silence in my head. I don't have to think about it anymore. The cycle of questions, should I, will I, that's gone. And knowing that I won't have the question, should I have done this? Floating around indefinitely is a huge relief.

1:00:49Yeah, I really get that. Sometimes the best part of making a decision is just having made a decision. Either way, something will come out of it. But not doing anything at all can create an open loop in your life that sometimes can eat away at you. She took a stance. There's real power in that. There's also a lot of relief, right? I think that's great. My understanding was that it could take up to 18 months to hear back from the Board of Physicians in my state if I heard it all. But the board contacted me less than two weeks after I submitted, and I went in for an in-person interview days later.

1:01:23Wow. So crazy. Yeah, that's so fast. The Board of Physicians is either super on top of it, or they were like, oh my goodness, we need to jump on this immediately. This is terrible. I'm shocked that they moved so quickly, but this is really encouraging. So she goes on, it was almost two hours, and while the interviewers were kind, it was probably the most humiliating thing I've gone through. The interview was such a destabilizing experience, partly because they asked so many detailed questions, and so many of my responses ended up being, I don't remember, or I can't remember if this happened in the first meeting or in the second meeting.

1:01:59Yeah, by the way, I can also understand why that threw you off a little bit. I'm glad that these investigators were kind, but their job is to take you seriously while also giving this guy a fair shake. So I'm sure that they had to be pretty rigorous. It's got to be so hard to remember an experience like this in detail. So I'm sure a lot of people in your shoes end up answering questions like that. So I would not beat yourself up for any of that. This is why I'm always banging on about document, document, document, because our memory is obviously far from perfect. We remember things in a unique way.

1:02:29Time passes. The memories degrade or they change. Well, especially in a traumatic situation like this. Definitely. When your shrink is hitting on you, your brain is not thinking like, okay, I'm going to remember every word he said verbatim and the date he said it and how he said it and the order that this was, all these events went down and what color clothes he was wearing. It's going, holy crap, is my shrink hitting on me right now? Wait, hold on, hold on, hold on. I might have to run away. I might have to fight him off. What is happening? So your memories are being recorded in a very specific way.

1:02:57They're never going to be perfect because that's not what the situation, the immediate situation requires. Plus, this was not one event like a car accident. This was multiple conversations and multiple emails from the sound of it. So the timeline is even harder to track. Exactly. So give yourself some grace there. But this is a great reminder for anyone going through anything, the details of which they might have to refer back to or share with somebody else. Write them down, note the date, the time, who was there, all of that, even if it's just bullet points. That'll make everything so much easier.

1:03:28If I didn't have hundreds of written communications from the psychiatrist, I probably would have felt terrible about the interview. If this were a he said, she said situation, I'm not sure how convincing my narrative would have been. It really made me feel even more empathy for people who go through these types of investigations without other evidence. Yeah, dude, this guy buried himself by hitting on you over email. I mean, what a bonehead move from a doctor. This guy is really a dumbass. He is the dumbest skis ball in medical history. Also, hundreds of written communications. Hundreds. When she first wrote in, I thought it was like, okay, he sent me a creepy email after one or two.

1:04:04This guy was writing you hundreds of emails. This guy is not right in the head. He deserves to be investigated for sure, no doubt about it. But also, what an idiot. What an absolute moron. It was not a pleasant experience, but I'm pretty sure that's it for my part, which is a huge relief. The board has since requested my medical records from my therapist and primary doctors, so they are moving forward and taking it seriously. signed no longer in shock because I finally talked about this pervy old doc. What if her medical records have like drawings of her on them from the therapist or something?

1:04:37There's no text here. It's just a lot of really obscene drawings that he made while you were talking about your trauma. Creepy limericks and little sketches and drafts of the horrible emails he would send her later. That would be so weird. This is incredible, man. I don't really have a ton to add here. So I just wanted to share this letter with you guys because I think it's a great outcome in a really disturbing story. And I'm sure at least a few of you were invested in our friend here as we were. I also think the story is a great reminder of the very significant upsides to owning your story and speaking up when somebody does something objectively wrong, especially somebody in a position of power with a strong ethical obligation like a doctor.

1:05:14It can be so daunting and stressful and sometimes embarrassing to recount the details of an experience like this. And I really do get why people hesitate or just decide, like, nah, it's not worth it. But look at what happened with our friend here. She reclaimed her agency in a very disempowering situation. She held an unethical doctor accountable. She helped uphold the standards of the profession. She potentially protected other women, patients from going through something similar. Yes, and she resolved this debilitating conflict about whether to speak up about it or just let it go, which sounds very liberating, right?

1:05:48She said the silence in her head. And I just think it's tremendous. And I'm also very heartened by the Board of Physicians response here. It gives me a lot of hope for these agencies. Sometimes they can be hopelessly inefficient or hot messes, but this one actually sounds super responsive and responsible. And I just think there are some excellent ideas in here for anybody going through any traumatic situation. I agree. Thank you again, by the way, for sharing so much of your life with us. I'm got to say, I'm especially moved by the things she said about us being in her head. No, I'm just kidding.

1:06:17about the thing she said about not recognizing how bad something is when it happens to us. But if the same thing happened to somebody we know, we would probably be horrified. I think there's so much to talk about in there. I agree. I think that's fascinating, isn't it? There's something about being in our own experience that sometimes, I don't know, miscalibrates our sense of how serious something is when it happens to us. Or maybe we often don't think we deserve compassion or protection. But when something bad happens to someone else, it's easier to go, oh, that is not cool whatsoever. I am sorry.

1:06:48Someone's got to step in here. There are plenty of people that would never defend themselves, but would absolutely defend their friends or family. Well, it can be very vulnerable to say something bad happened to me and I need help. I think that makes it hard for a lot of people to speak up. You know, it's so crazy. I just remembered. So years ago, I have a friend who was inappropriately touched by her OBGYN in an appointment. She went to a routine appointment. He touched her. She was like, that was weird but she kind of ignored it and brushed it under the rug because apparently she was kind of going through a lot in her life and she didn't really register it as an actual assault she just thought it was kind of you know weird that's how she put it she was like it was just weird also the guy in question was a very well-respected doctor and she trusted him and there was also a nurse in the room so there was a lot going on in this story what the heck but then years later someone got in touch with her and told her that this doctor did this to tons of other people.

1:07:44And suddenly my friend realized that it wasn't just weird. It was, you know, like an actual, it was an assault. And suddenly she was asking herself like, why was it so hard for me to recognize what he did as abuse at the time? And as it happens, my friend had a very traumatic childhood and nobody really validated her feelings or looked out for her when she was a kid. And so it's very hard for her to speak up when she's hurt or when she's compromised now as an adult. In fact, this whole experience I'm telling you about helped her realize that she really struggled with self-worth and the right to even own her experience and to tell other people, hey, this terrible thing happened to me and I kind of like need to talk about her.

1:08:22I need to do something about it. So she discounted this memory for years and almost in a weird way, like borderline repressed the memory until somebody else helped her see that what this doctor did was objectively wrong and damaging. Holy smokes. That's so sad. But yeah, makes total sense. And I think it's quite interesting. Again, thank you for sharing all this with us. We're super proud of you. We hope the investigation goes smoothly. And I hope you find the resolution and justice that you're looking for. This psychiatrist, oh man, I think he's going to get the book thrown at him. I mean, this guy's going to end up retiring immediately, if not more.

1:08:57I don't even know. He might retire and like lose his license at the same time. But look, That's what happens when you treat your practice like it's your own frickin' Bumble account or whatever. He really did bring this on himself and is just a creep. Or, I don't know, is this a lonely old man who just completely abandoned his ethics in treating his patients? Either way, this is not okay. And we're sending you a big hug. As always, definitely a consensual hug. And we're wishing you all the best. Hope you all enjoyed the show. I want to thank everybody who wrote in and everybody who listened. Thank you so much.

1:09:27Don't forget about 6MinuteNetworking over at 6MinuteNetworking.com. And if you haven't signed up yet, check out our relaunch newsletter for the show. It's called We Bit Wiser. It's a bite-sized gem from a past episode from us to you delivered right to your inbox once a week. So if you want to keep up with the wisdom from our 900 plus episodes and apply it to your life, I invite you to come and check it out. You can sign up at jordanharbinger.com slash news. Show notes and transcripts on the website at jordanharbinger.com, advertisers, discounts, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals.

1:09:58I am Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Milio Campo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer, so do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Dr. Margolis' input, well, she's a real doctor, but it's general psychological information based on research and clinical experience.

1:10:28It's intended to be general and informational in nature. It does not represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance. And remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found this episode useful, please go ahead and share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show with Amanda Catarzi, who was raised in a cult and later sex and labor trafficked.

1:11:00The women were trained to be insanely submissive. Like you could never say no to any man. And then the men were trained in a very military way. These people are well-armed and well-trained. And it's a whole group that thinks that the world is evil and they need to repopulate the world with their people to bring the kingdom of God. When you turn 13 in that culture, you're an adult. So to be 13 years old, being courted by men twice my age, three times my age to see if I would make a good wife, it was just kind of outrageous. So I moved to California to go to school and I start training MMA and my trafficker was there.

1:11:45He was actually one of my boxing coaches. Then he's like, you know, I like you. And so now we're dating. So this is my first adult relationship. He's twice my age at this point. And then he would always take me up to his cabin on the mountain, which was really far away from everybody else. No phone service, isolation. And it was on a Native American reservation. So whatever they wanted to do to me, they could, oops, you accidentally got gang raped. That was very common of going to go train. and then all of a sudden, now that you've fought 12 rounds, now you're going to be raped. A girl ran a red light and T-boned my truck.

1:12:23So I pull out my phone and I text my trafficker and I say, hey, I almost just died in a car accident. He said, is your face fucked up? And I'm like, no. He said, well, you're still fuckable then. Something isn't right here. This isn't who I want to be. This isn't what I want. and it was like I was coming out of water. I had this moment of clarity and I knew something wasn't right and I knew this wasn't what I wanted and I knew I needed to act fast in order to get out of that situation because I knew I'd get sucked back in. To hear how she escaped her dire situation, check out episode 631 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.

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