962: Timeshares | Skeptical Sunday

22:46You have a good example for us. Oh, I sure do. I really, really do. You know, before doing that, I'd like to kind of say that these horror stories really appear to be tied to like the legacy timeshare brands, as I'll call them. Westgate Resorts, Wyndham Resorts, Diamond Resorts. But like some timeshare brands actually seem to be pretty honorable and like people have kind of nice things to say about them. So just they don't really have these people who are talking about what an awful service they are. Here's the problem, Kevin. Nuance. We don't want that on this show at all. Just tell us the gory details of how bad timeshares are and of someone's terrible experience.

23:20All right, fine, fine. So I watched a story, which we can link in the show notes, about how one couple spent$11 ,000 plus a yearly maintenance fee of$800 on a Westgate Resorts timeshare. And they did that for six years. Wow. Right? They were never able to use their timeshare. Not even once. How is that possible? I mean, well, first, they actually ask you to book it on the phone. That's so annoying already. Absolutely. Like, clearly despicable, right? The ability to talk to other people using my voice, by far my least favorite feature of my phone. Exactly. But like, honestly, somehow it gets worse.

23:56Year one, this couple kind of calls a month in advance and they're told they called too late. Sure. Year two comes around and they're like calling six months in advance and they're told they're too early. So now year three is rolling around and they're kind of feeling like they're in that Goldilocks zone. Sure. They're calling three months in advance. Guess what they're told here? Too late again? You you aren't really giving us too much time to accommodate you here. So but listen, you know, we'll let you stay here. You're just gonna have to pay a regular price like a regular hotel guest. Right.

24:28So basically, you could have just gotten the hotel anyway. But that's absurd. I'd be so angry that I would do nothing because these timeshares probably have ironclad contracts. A hundred percent there. They really, really do. And honestly, even that story gets like more comical somehow. Like they complain about this whole thing. And instead of refunding them, Westgate's trying to upsell them into paying another $15 ,000 so they can use their timeshare. It's delusional. Hey, we didn't deliver on your first six years. But if you give us twice as much money the next six years, they're going to be great.

25:02Just look at that shimmering swimming pool, lightly urinated in swimming pool. A hundred percent, you know, and you just got to trust them, right? You're trying to get out of this like ironclad contract, right? And they always kind of sell you this idea that you can always get out of it just by selling your timeshare. But again, with this story of this couple, they go to do that. And guess what? Nobody wants it. Right. Nobody wants my maintenance fee, my yearly maintenance fee that I can't use. Right. Oof. Exactly. And so they couldn't sell it. They end up actually hiring this investigative reporter team.

25:35And they kind of really go into how absurd some of this stuff can get because their contract says they own a specific week of a specific address. And then, you know, these reporters end up going to this address and the address doesn't even exist. Crazy. So the whole property was a sham and by extension, their ability to use it. And the plan ostensibly was, oh, just offer them something else, but that something else is never available. Yeah. And like, so for like what I can tell from my research here, like these legacy timeshare companies, which again, I'm clarifying are these like Westgate and Diamond Resorts.

26:06They're kind of the ones that truly have these horror stories that kind of make your skin crawl. You know, it's stuff like preying on immigrants by selling them the idea of owning a vacation, being the American dream. Or, you know, actually, my personal favorite is forcing people into financially awkward situations like borrowing from their 401k to pay off a$42 ,000 loan at 15%. Oh, my gosh. So you not only ruin people's time off while they're in their working years, but then you are actively extending their working years by soaking up their retirement funds. That's super despicable. And look, I know that like no one's forcing you to empty your 401k.

26:44But if that's your only option because you were kind of lied to slash duped into this purchase that ended up being way more expensive. I don't know. It kind of sounds like college. Totally. Absolutely. And, you know, just like college, you know, I don't want to paint with this kind of broad brush. It's kind of like it's not everybody. It's not all the people doing wrong things. It's there's these timeshare properties that actually are honorable. Not every single one of them is looking to take you for a ride. Really? Because everything you've said so far, it kind of makes me feel like they're all pretty frickin corrupt and scabby.

27:15That's fair. I'll give you that. But I honestly, it really does vary between these brands like Westgate, Wyndham, Diamond. And yeah, Consensus Online, these are terrible, terrible companies. You should never go get a timeshare with them. But, you know, if you're looking to buy from someone like Disney or Hilton or Marriott, those companies are more brand conscious. So they just don't want people talking shit on the Internet, you know, meaning they will go to greater lengths to make sure people are happy. Now's a great time to mention that this podcast is sponsored by Hilton Timeshares. Your perfect vacation awaits.

27:46And we promise the condo definitely exists. Anyway, Kevin, if they figure out, I can't believe the address didn't even exist. That's next level lazy scamming where they're just like, what's Google Maps? If they can figure out how to get people to stop talking shit on the Internet, though, I feel like that's just a whole new business unit for Disney to start selling. Oh, totally. And, you know, maybe they could start bundling it together with a timeshare and a Disney Plus subscription. Yeah. Timeshare internet shit talkage removal passes to Disney World$170 ,000, mostly for the passes to Disney World.

28:18Right, right. Right. You know, you get access to Disney World and that gets you access to Peacock and that gets you access to the Pentagon. And all of a sudden you can see the ability to see who killed JFK. Right. Yeah. The bundling stuff's out of control, except for podcast one, of course, which works tirelessly to bring you the best content like this podcast for free in the podcast one app. Absolutely shameless, Jordan. But, you know, not as shameless as some of these timeshare developers. Amen, man. Now, OK, what is this that I've heard about there actually being like the whole industry getting people out of timeshares?

28:47You kind of mentioned that at the top of the show. Right, right. So let's say you want out. You realize that this isn't what I signed up for. I can't even use my points. I don't want to pay the maintenance fees. I really need to get out of this. Well, like, good luck, honestly, because oftentimes the contracts, they're complex. They make them deliberately difficult to break. So to basically address this problem, you have the rise of law firms which specialize in getting you out of timeshares. That is crazy. So there's this entire army of lawyers standing at the ready to specifically get you out of a predatory timeshare contract.

29:20Wow. My fellow attorneys have gone from chasing ambulances to chasing faceless corporations, shilling condos in Aruba that may or may not exist. Gosh. Well, seriously, so you're telling me that if I want to get out of a timeshare contract, I got to hire some lawyer at like 200 plus dollars an hour to get me out of my$20 ,000 loan that I already can't afford. Yeah. I mean, most likely, yes. And, you know, honestly, unfortunately, some of these are also scams. Dang, that is a double whammy. But you know what? That's also not surprising. A lot of scam remediation companies are themselves scams. Like if you lose Bitcoin online or cryptocurrency or you get, I don't know, whatever, there's some sort of extortion, you will almost all any post about it on Reddit, for example, you'll almost always get a DM that's like, hey, we can help you with this.

30:07And there's even warnings that are like, hey, don't fall for these DMs, because I guess the psychology is if you fell for a scam, you're desperate and you're kind of the type of guy that falls for scams. So if I can hit you at this vulnerable moment in your life where you're not thinking clearly and you are already predisposed to fall for scams, you're exactly the type of guy that I'm looking for if I'm a scammer. So it's not surprising that some of these get out of this desperate contract is also just, you know, fork over money and then have no recourse. Yeah, exactly. And the law firms that do these timeshare businesses, they're exactly like the timeshares themselves, right?

30:44They're like these good actors, bad actors. And the good actors, they really do want to help you get out of this, right? But like the bad actors, they just kick you while you're down. So what does a scam such as this look like exactly? Yeah, I mean, great question. So like essentially they they'll accept your money as a flat fee and then you'll go to them and you'll be like, hey, I want to get out of my timeshare. So they'll give you the advice to default on paying the company back and roll the dice as to whether that company sends a notice which ruins your credit. That's insane. So how do they reason that to work?

31:14I mean, you're going to take a major hit to your credit score. Sure. You know, this argument basically it goes like it's uncommon for a timeshare agencies to kind of come after you for defaulted maintenance fees. So just stop paying them. But, you know, pay me on your credit card. Right. Jesus. So get out of your 17 percent loan by taking out another 17 percent loan or 21 percent, depending on your credit card terms. Classic scammers. But then what do the good guys do? How do they get you out of the contract? Actual legal work? Definitely. Yeah. They'll look at the whole body of work and, you know, they went to a real law school.

31:44So they'll like say some way you can get out of it. Right. So like some common legal grounds that I've seen, you know, the case about how you were, it was misrepresentation or fraud during the timeshare sales process. You got like violation of consumer protection laws or failure of the timeshare company to fulfill contractual obligations, you know, stuff like that. Right. So good old fashioned contract law. I can't believe, I guess I can, but it's hard to believe that there's enough demand. There's a whole industry propped up by what a scam another industry is. Again, I can believe it, but it's just sad.

32:17So like I thought going into this, timeshares are bad. I won't be buying one, especially from those aforementioned disastrous companies. Yeah. And honestly, I think this is kind of where it gets a little bit interesting for me is that I'm not actually sure if it's right that you just unilaterally shouldn't buy a timeshare. Really? I'm surprised. Yeah, totally. When you, and obviously, again, if you believe the statistics from the timeshare developers, most timeshare owners love their timeshare. I somehow find that hard to believe. But again, first of all, I know people own timeshares. Every single one of them loves it, goes there every year, talks about it nonstop, tries to convince us to like buy one next to them in Florida.

32:55And also my family went to a boring ass lake house every weekend to eat Cheetos and stare out the window. And so a timeshare doesn't sound that bad if that's the competition. Definitely. And like I was saying, the study by artists says that like eight and 10 timeshare owners said they would happily buy their timeshare again. And honestly, I found that surprising. Like I only ever hear bad things about timeshares. and, you know, I'm like, what kind of Stockholm syndrome do these people have, right? That was my first reaction. I mean, there is something to be said. People paid big bucks for these.

33:23They probably have a hard time admitting that they're wrong or that they got hosed, they got ripped off. So there's some rationalization there. Also, the study was commissioned, like you said, by the Timeshare Industry Group. So maybe we take this info with the lost shaker of salt that Jimmy Buffett left on the sticky can margarita coated floor earlier in the episode. Yeah, I mean, I totally get that sentiment. But like, honestly, it seems like people actually use the thing they paid for. And like, they're claiming that they derive a lot of value out of it. So like, I'll give you some more stats here.

33:54Like nearly 60 % of timeshare owners either use their timeshare or banked it. Huh? Yeah. And 77 % of timeshare owners took a vacation at a timeshare resort last year. I need a timeshare where you can bank it. Like I'll pay for it and then not use it for 20 years. And then I will just be in there for three more years until I die in the property. You think they allow that? I think so. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure. It's interesting, though. I'd always peg this as something people buy and then immediately regret and spend the next decade desperately trying to get out of the deal and use those forums and those lawyers and whatnot.

34:28Definitely. And I mean, honestly, I also thought that going into this and that take does get supported by studies out of the University of Central Florida. There they claim that 85 percent of timeshare owners regretted their purchase. But again, those are stats that get thrown out by timeshare law firms. So it's kind of hard to suss out, like, is this just cherry picking in the opposite direction? Like I said, it's just very murky. Like the developers say everyone loves it. Law firms say everyone hates it. OK, so maybe all of these stats, let's assume they're all BS and it's just somewhere in the middle, maybe.

34:59Yeah, I mean, and that's where I was at, too. You know, so to suss out whether or not I was just kind of consuming propaganda here, I actually conducted some field research. Well, you took a crappy overpriced vacation. That's right, Jordan. And, you know, as part of my painstaking research process for this podcast, I went to the white sand beaches of Aruba and I stayed in a hotel while my parents stayed in their timeshare. Wow. You're so committed to Skeptical Sunday, man. I love it. I appreciate that. Yeah. I'm as brave as a war reporter, you know, just selflessly sitting on a beach in perfect weather, just trying to get close enough to that raucous bingo scene.

35:30So courageous. You know, but honestly, like what I'll say are two huge positives about timeshares that I saw coming out of that. One was like the cost of my parents' stay was actually stable. You know, like the cheapest hotel in Aruba was$500 a night. Like, honestly, let me tell you, it didn't feel great as we were trying to book the trip. And like we were just staring down the barrel of spending$500 a night to stay in the Holiday Inn. Oh, yeah. Oof. So there's something to be said about how like a timeshare is a stable price and it's robust to insane price hikes. Like when your area becomes more popular.

36:03When you said$500 a night, I was like, yeah, stayed at the Four Seasons, got a pretty decent deal. No, stayed at a holiday. It sure sucks that you spend$500. But then when you save a man's life on the beach as he's choking on his acai bowl and you say, I'm not a doctor, but I did stay at a holiday in an express hotel for$500 plus tax plus resort fees last night. I mean, that's got to kind of make up for something, doesn't it? I don't even know if I can laugh at that. Just be like dating ourselves even further than you just did. Oh, is that campaign over? They don't run those commercials anymore?

36:31Or let's just segue back to timeshares then as if I said nothing. Totally. I'll try. And a second huge positive, though, about the timeshare is honestly this community aspect. Like my parents have been going to the same timeshare same week for the last 20 years. Wow. Yeah. And they have this community of people who are there at the same time each year. And actually, that was like pretty cool to see them like it's their neighbors. Like every year for one week, it is their neighbors. And it just kind of felt a bit more permanent than sort of the transient feel of some vacations. You know what's cooler than a week in Des Moines in the middle of October because that's the only week you could get?

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39:03You know, like, oh, Martha and Tom are going to be there. I wonder if something, something catch up. Oh, they last emailed me six months ago. Yeah. Shout out Bob and his great performance at the karaoke that one night. That's right. That's right. Like, I wonder if John's going to come with his mistress or his wife this time. You know, there's going to be some juicy drama. I can see why that would be appealing. And it helps me understand a bit more why these have even a shred of popularity. Totally. And again, like the popularity is just staggering. Like in 2022, the average timeshare occupancy was 78%.

39:33Compare that to hotel inventory. And that was a 62%. Crazy. I just can't believe they're this popular. I know a couple old folks that have a timeshare, but that's literally it. Yeah. And there's honestly another wrinkle here too, which is that like people have this tough time going on vacation. Well, Americans. Yeah. Yeah, totally. There's just like a lot of work associated with it, right? Like you got to request the time off and you got to find a place to go. You got to book your tickets, find a hotel, create this tour of sites you want to see. Yeah. It's always way more work than you think it should be.

40:06Planning vacations can be exhausting. And I'm lucky enough to be like, Jen, plan this vacation to Japan, right? And even that's tiring for me. And the timeshare like kind of takes care of a lot of that for you, right? Like there's just a few places that you can go. Yeah. Your options are super limited. You basically show up and you hope your condo is still there. Exactly. I really feel that I love vacationing, of course, but now I've got two kids and it feels like there's so much crap you need to figure out before you get your tickets booked. Where are we going to eat? What are the kids going to do?

40:36How far is everything from the hotel? Can we get the kids there? Is it worth going there if they're going to cry halfway through the ride? All that stuff. Totally. Totally. And an all inclusive resort that you go to every year, it solves a lot of that. And I'm this pressure to kind of like use it or lose it actually seems to get people to take vacations. There's a study out of the timeshare users group, and that found that 79 % of owners indicated they go on more vacations than they would have taken without their time. I suppose, because you already paid for it, right? So it's like, are you just not going to take it?

41:04Because again, for me, I need a timeshare that I can just not use for 20 years and bank all the days. And that is honestly good for most of us Americans who work through our time off if we're just not forced to do something with it. And that's kind of a sad indictment of our work culture, I suppose. Like, I'm only going to take a vacation if I'm literally going to lose thousands of dollars by not taking a vacation. Totally. And like, you know, again, this art of research found that timeshare owners took an average of four vacations. Like, and you know, I can't, I don't know what the average American takes, but not four.

41:35Yeah, totally. I feel like it's less than four per year. Right. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And like all of this needs to be balanced with like, but are these people really able to afford this? Assuming they can. They're having a blast with it. Yeah, cool. So now it's just me, Jen, our two kids and 50, 80 year olds jazzercising in the Orlando Dream Vacations pool. Sound lightly urinated pool. Sounds like a ride. And honestly, like I thought that too, right? Like I have this vision of a timeshare and it's exactly that. It's like Cocoon. Have you ever seen that movie? They're all, don't worry about it.

42:07It's another reference that no one will understand. Perfect. Perfect. Holiday Inn Express, Cocoon. We're crushing it today. Like exactly like you You were just saying, I thought the average person who uses these is old. Yeah. Guess what? They're actually surprisingly popular with the youths. I kind of can't believe that that's the case. How is that possible? Totally. Like today, like over half of timeshare owners are Gen Z or millennials. And the average age of that timeshare owner is 39 years old. That's a good 30 years below what I actually had in mind. I really thought everybody would be over 60, possibly over 70 years old.

42:43Are these just young people who are ending up with dearly departed granny's timeshare? Are they inheriting this stuff? Like maybe some of them, you know, but like actually not all of these owners are inheriting. Millennials and Gen Z account for 53 % of new sales purchases. Wow. Yeah, like the Marriott vacation clubs, over 66 % of first-time buyers are under the age of 42. I did not see that coming at all. I guess having a timeshare, and this is a little depressing, might be the closest that the younger generation will ever get to home ownership, at least in the next few decades. And that is, again, sad.

43:17But I suppose I understand the appeal here. You're renting, you're living with your parents, you're renting like a studio apartment. You're like, but I have a condo in Florida. A hundred percent. You know, these young Gen Zs, they're just kind of quiet quitting right into that hepatitis A at a Sandals resort in like Fort Lauderdale. Conveniently located behind a strip mall with access to Chinese food, kids karate mattress store and an ethnic market that sells exotic live animals that apparently you're supposed to cook and eat. I got it. Yeah. But you're saying there's this emotional piece here, right?

43:45Like people love the feeling of being an owner and they can just say they own something when they might not own anything else. They where they spend time, you know, and that's really not a knock on timeshare owners. That's actually just a knock on late stage capital. Sure. Yeah. The housing prices. It's also a little bit of a knock on timeshare owners. You know, like, again, like I feel the media portrays these timeshare owners as like these old, dumb hillbillies. But in reality, they're like these young, educated, middle class people. Yeah, surprising. Totally. And it's like, you know, 63 % of timeshare owners have a four year college degree.

44:20And, you know, compare that to like the 38 % of Americans as a whole, right? And the median household income for timeshare owners, that's actually larger than the median household income for the US. Yeah, people certainly do paint timeshare owners as like the people who voted Terry Cruz character into power in the movie Idiocracy, when it's really just a normal, educated young person who realizes that the American dream of homeownership is actually a total farce for them and way out of reach. Oh, totally. And, you know, just to kind of go back to Idiocracy, I think we all still get chills when we think about President Camacho's State of the Union address.

44:52You know, there will be a time where you make a reference to Idiocracy and you will feel old and no one else will get it. And then you'll know what my entire life is like. Yeah, this is all super fascinating. Okay. So give it to me straight. What do you personally, after doing all the research, what do you think about timeshares? You plowed through all this data. Are you getting one or not? Yeah, definitely. I mean, like, you know, I think it's popular to say that timeshares are a scam. And I would say that timeshares are a scam if you don't run the numbers. Like if you can afford it though, it can actually be a pretty perfect option for some people.

45:22So which kind of people, because for me getting stuck going to the same place every year, It sounds in many ways worse than just staying at home. You know, I think that's just because you're like a hopeless workaholic, you know, just find it impossible to relax. Well, touche. Yeah. But, you know, yeah, like the kind of people this is perfect for, they like going to the same place over and over again. They like a very standard expected experience when they travel. The person might even have like trouble taking a vacation and need a forcing function to do it. A timeshare removes so much complexity.

45:52And now they're just this list of places they can go. and here are the places you can stay. Yeah, I mean, it's perfect for that person, right? Obviously, provided that person has the money up front to pay for it and they can pay an ever-increasing maintenance fee in perpetuity. Right, but they don't need that original loan at 17 % or whatever that washes away all the savings. Yeah, that sounds like quite a specific person, but of course, there's plenty of those people. Totally, and honestly, if that specific person is out there, I'd give you two more pieces of advice. First, I'd look to buy a timeshare on the resale market, like we talked about with that couple's nightmare story.

46:26A ton of people try to offload it when they realize that they can't pay the maintenance fee in perpetuity. So you can really find a deal out there. Obviously, be wary of fake sales. Again, this is another area where there's a ton of scammers out there. Right, like you should be suspicious of any Nigerian princes unloading their week in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Yeah, exactly. And that's just a fact of life. You should probably never... Yeah, exactly. No one stays in Grand Rapids. You shouldn't buy... Yeah, and if you need to send him money for something, then also don't do that. My second piece of advice is that if you're going to buy one, buy through one of these bigger brands like Disney, Hilton, Marriott.

47:02Just invest in their brand, and they don't want to see it devalued by people having bad experiences. You know, even you could go through a timeshare ownership group that's kind of known and vetted, like, you know, your friends use it. They talk really highly about it. I would just say know what you're buying. Know who you're buying from. Once again, the perfect time to shout out our fake sponsor, Hilton Timeshares. For real, a lot of qualifying statements here, and none of them really says, hey, this makes financial sense. Oh, totally. And I don't think everything needs to make absolute financial sense.

47:33I really just think it needs to not bankrupt you and you need to get enjoyment from it. Yeah, that makes sense. I can kind of get behind that, right? It doesn't have to be like a good investment. If this is you and you feel like you're going to enjoy this and actually take vacations, go ahead, do it. Yeah, exactly. And just kind of like, undoubtedly, there are these non-financially sophisticated people just being taken advantage of. People just don't know what they're getting into. But there's this other group of people who love it. They can afford it. And the ownership model fits them perfectly.

48:01It sounds like we have the lame answer of it depends on this episode of Skeptical Sunday. But, you know, what else is there? You know me, Jordan. I'm just a big, nuanced guy. Just so educated. Nope. Never taking a stand. Exactly. Exactly. You know, you just never be wrong if you play both sides. Such a politician. But for me personally, this phase of my life, I just not, I wouldn't buy a timeshare. And it really comes down to two reasons. First is cost. I just find the true ownership of the timeshare with the cost and the maintenance fee. It's just not enough of a deal versus just buying the individual vacations to be particularly compelling.

48:38The second reason is just vacation selection. You know, like you're limited to where the timeshares have resorts and hotels. and I like to travel to different places and I don't always want to stay in a resort. I maybe want the ability to pick a place right in the premier part of the city I'm staying in or change hotels to be closer to a different part of the city that I want to follow along with on my trip. But if you can pay for the timeshare and you have your spot that you go to, timeshare might be exactly what you want. So just know the numbers and know yourself. It sounds right. For me, this is obviously not my jam, right?

49:09Because sometimes, at least in the past pre-kids, I would go to places like North Korea, I'm going to bet the listings over there are pretty sparse. I don't know. I bet you could get any week of year in Pyongyang. Yeah, man. Pick of the litter. Thanks, Kevin. And special thanks to our fake sponsor, Hilton Timeshares. They actually, they should sponsor this show. I'm going to go after Disney and what was the other one? Hilton Timeshares. And I can't remember the other one, but that'll be the one that signs with us. No freebies. Thanks, y 'all, for listening. Topic suggestions for future episodes of Skeptical Sunday to Jordan at jordanharbinger.com.

49:42Show notes at jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts are in the show notes. Advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. I am at jordanharbinger on both Twitter and Instagram or just hit me on LinkedIn. You can find Kevin Rapp at fullofkrap.substack.com. That's K-R-A-P-P. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Emilio Campo, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. And I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer, and I'm sure not a timeshare lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show.

50:19Also, we may get a few things wrong here and there, especially on Skeptical Sunday. I know, I know, you love your timeshare. But if you really think we dropped the ball on something, let us know. We're usually pretty receptive to that. Y 'all know how to reach me, Jordan, at jordanharbinger.com. And remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use a good dose of the skepticism and knowledge that we doled out today, especially if one of your friends or family is thinking about it in a timeshare.

50:44In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. This episode is sponsored in part by Conspirituality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation? Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling New Age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy-mad yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation. It's called the Conspirituality podcast. The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic, dive deep into how this stuff spreads, from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies.

51:22An interesting episode to check out is called Speaking Truth to Goop, where Jen Gunter breaks down the pseudoscience behind the wellness industry in a way that is super entertaining and eye-opening. It's sharp, funny, and makes you a lot harder to fool, which, if you listen to this show, you know I'm all about that. From exploring cults to analyzing our cultural and political landscape, the Conspirituality Podcast will help you stay informed against misinformation and resist fear tactics. Find Conspirituality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is sponsored in part by Everything Everywhere Daily.

51:52You've heard the phrase, learn something new every day. Sounds nice, but do you actively do it? That's where Everything Everywhere Daily comes in. This podcast makes it effortless. Just 10 minutes a day, you'll walk away with a fascinating fact, a slice of history, a science gem. It's no wonder the show has climbed up to the top as the number one history podcast. It covers history, science, technology, geography, and stories of remarkable people, always in a way that keeps you hooked. Not sure where to jump in? Start with these favorites. The eruption of Krakatoa, nature's fury in one of the deadliest volcanic events ever recorded, or the spice trade, how a handful of spices changed the course of global history.

52:24If you want to make learning effortless and fun, check out Everything Everywhere Daily. It's quick, fascinating, and a perfect way to stay curious. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts.