983: Bro's Obsessed with Goats: What's the Antidote? | Feedback Friday

23:36They're not the most gracious. And yeah, losing to you, that probably added insult to injury. These guys sound kind of petty and annoying, to be honest, but obviously we don't have the full story, nor do we know what's going on for them. At the same time how they feel about you being there, whether this is about having a woman in the group or having you there specifically, that says at least as much about them. So that makes it not entirely about you. And from that angle, you might be taking this a little more personally than you have to. Now, about your husband not coming to your defense, again, I'm of two minds here.

24:10On the one hand, yeah, it would be nice if he said, chill, guys, it's my wife. She's good at poker, get used to it. On the other hand, maybe he also kind of wants it to just be the fellas, and I'm not sure that's entirely unfair. He might also be giving into social pressure here a little bit. It might not be that he doesn't love you and he doesn't want to defend you. It might just be that he doesn't want to create drama in the group chat. So this is a conversation with him, but honestly, if I had one loser-ass cousin who's a grown man who's like 40 and still lives with his parents or doesn't like or respect women, I've already given up on this yutz, okay?

24:43I'm not going to try and change his personality on WhatsApp. The dude's already a man child from the sound of it. Why am I going to waste my time and get everyone riled up giving him a talking to? I'm just not going to do it. Right. Yeah. That's clearly what he meant by, you know, how he is, right? He's saying this guy's a lost cause. I don't feel like dealing with him and trying to teach him how to be a decent person. But actually the most interesting thing to me about this letter isn't whether she belongs at this poker game. It's actually how all of this is hurting her so profoundly. Well, to her credit, she's already onto that, right?

25:14She's going, why am I having such a strong reaction to a relatively minor occurrence? Right, which is such a great question, especially when you have a very strong response to something that seems otherwise kind of insignificant. Now, we do have a few clues. One is that she was the only woman there, so she felt different. She felt that she wasn't wanted. I do wonder whether she leapt at that explanation because it was the most obvious one. And, you know, maybe it's like that's the most glaring difference between her and these people. But it could have also just been that they are not being very nice or there just isn't good chemistry in this group.

25:46But either way, apparently that feeling goes back to at least 10 years old, which is an awful feeling. And I get why that hurt. But I think this might even go deeper than that. Like she said, her strongest impulse is to curl up into a tiny ball and blend into the background. Right. Her whole life is making herself as small as possible so as not to inconvenience anyone else. That really jumped out at me, too. So clearly this is a sort of pattern for her. This is how she moves through the world, generally speaking. And we don't know how that behavior developed, but it almost certainly goes back to childhood.

26:16And it has probably been reinforced by many, many experiences since then. So I think this whole poker thing hurts on two levels. One, it might confirm to her that she really should be a wallflower. She should be small. She should stay in the background, which sucks. And it probably hurts because she tried something very different at this poker game, which by the way is so hard to do. And it's also so admirable. She jumped in, she played for her husband. She did well. She owned her skills. She came back again. She felt like she belonged. And the message she got back from some of these guys, and I think that's important.

26:50It's not all of them, but some of them, or at least the message that she heard from them was, nah, we don't like that. We don't like you. You are too much. Yeah, exactly. The rejection, it kind of hit her in the jugular. I think that's, yeah, it's a tender spot. Yeah, probably hit her right in the wound that the impulse to make herself very small is designed to protect. Yeah, it kind of broke my heart when she said that she thought she'd found a place where she could unapologetically be herself. I mean, we all need a place like that. But then she's like, oh, got too comfortable. And I'm not sure the problem is that she got too comfortable.

27:22It sounds like she was having a ball and taking up some space, which I think is tremendous. It's just that they weren't comfortable with her partially because this dude decided to make a big deal out of it. Exactly. But she also said something else very meaningful, which is, I feel more comfortable at their gatherings than at my own family's. So that tells us two more important things. One, that she's maybe not particularly close to her own family. Maybe she was the black sheep or they have their own issues. That's probably also, by the way, a clue to where the impulse to make herself as small as possible began.

27:52And second, that feeling at home in her husband's family is really significant to her. So being shunned by them or being mocked by them, again, it's kind of a double wound. If she can't be with her family, and now she feels like she can't be in his family. Yeah. So like, what family does she get to belong to? Who really loves her at all? Exactly. Which probably also explains why her husband not standing up for her in the group chat bothered her so much. Right. Like, who is on my side here, for God's sake? Totally. And I get that. Feeling like you belong and then finding out, oh, actually, secretly, everybody doesn't while you're here.

28:25That sucks. And depending on your personal history, it can be devastating. So where I'm landing on all of this is I love that you showed up to this poker game. I love that you rocked it, that you felt at home. I think that was super important for you to do. And the really great news here is you know that you have that desire in you and you know that you have that ability to not just shrink away and be in the background. You can hang and you can hang with the boys. At the same time, I'm not totally sure if this is your poker game. If these guys are annoying, if they're kind of petty, if some of them are unkind, or even if they're not, but they just want a certain kind of evening and that doesn't include you, ultimately, that's okay.

29:07And I really do think that that says much, much more about them than it does about you. Ultimately, you don't want to push on a pole door, right? If they don't want to hang, F that noise, maybe you just got to let them have this one. But my strong advice to you, which I'm actually very excited to share, is that you should follow this desire to be part of a community and to take up space and to be big and to be good at a game and to have fun. I would follow that desire to a group that does think you're awesome, that does want you there. You deserve that. And now you know that you're capable of it.

29:36Gabe, the story is kind of pissing me off, actually, because even if this is a guy's night, it still sucks that they're signaling to her that she's not welcome. I mean, she's part of their family. You just don't treat family members like this. I've been in her shoes before. It sucks. But I wouldn't extrapolate from this poker night to know how your husband's family feels about you in general. I think it's very possible that they still like you and they love you and they want you around. And this is the piece of your reaction that you really have to sit with and unpack to notice the story that you're telling about, you know, what all this means and your status in the family, because, yeah, your cousin's a dick and maybe they weren't the most gracious.

30:12But you might also be drawing some conclusions based on your conditioning, your assumptions that are just not necessarily accurate. So keep being kind, keep being loving, and make sure you take stock of all the ways your husband's family treats you well too, because I really do think that this poker night might be a special case. Sending you a hug and wishing you all the best. You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line. That makes our job a lot easier. If you're being stalked by your father, your boyfriend's been putting off moving in together because he's secretly been cheating, or you're wondering whether to adopt your troubled sister-in-law's baby.

30:47Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. All right, next up. Hey guys, I'm a male firefighter and paramedic and about four years ago, I responded to a child who I watched bleed to death at school. Those images have stuck with me and have affected my mental health in ways that I never imagined. Ooh, yeah, that's really intense. and I'm sorry that you saw that. A big part of your job. By the way, so many first responders people deal with trauma and it's so crucial that they have the right support in place to work through it so it doesn't develop into PTSD.

31:26Man, I'm sorry to hear about all this. You gotta wonder what causes a child to bleed to death during school. Like, what happened? Jeez. Something terrible. Obviously. So he goes on. Like most struggling firefighters, I turn to alcohol. Oh, man. Oh, man. Then, late last year, I was arrested for being drunk in public, indecent exposure, and carrying a switchblade knife. While I admitted to drinking and carrying the switchblade knife is indisputable, I don't agree with the indecent exposure charge. The story that a quote-unquote witness is telling is different from the truth that I remember. This person also has a criminal record, though I'm not aware of the details.

32:05So Gabe, I'm just reading between the lines here. I'm guessing he got really drunk, peed in an alley or something like that, and a cop rolled by and saw Or somebody was like, he pulled his penis out in front of me. And it's like, well, is that really the whole story? That's kind of the picture I'm getting to. And maybe that's why he disputes the indecent exposure charge. Because he's like, I wasn't indecently exposing myself. I was just peeing and buying a dumpster. Right. But you can sometimes get charged with that, especially if you're three sheets to the wind and you're being sloppy. So, OK, we don't know for sure.

32:36Maybe he didn't whip it out at all. And apologies to our friend here if we're getting this part wrong. But he's being a tiny bit vague. So I want to get a clear sense of what happened. Well, his vagueness might be part of the story to some degree. So let's come back to that. He goes on, I've taken the steps to right my wrongs. I've attended AA meetings and have remained sober since the incident. I owned up to my mistakes. Well, good on you. I'm glad you're sober. That's terrific. That's the bedrock of coming back from something like this and probably why it had to happen, I'd argue. But the department feels that I'm being dishonest.

33:07They intend to dismiss me and I'm scheduling a Skelly hearing. So for anyone who doesn't know, a Skelly hearing is a predisciplinary hearing where public employees are basically they're given notice of the allegations against them and then they have the opportunity to respond. So they can say, no, these allegations are not true. Or they can say, I would propose that we have this alternative remedy or this other discipline not being fired. Right. Sort of due process for public employees. Right, exactly. So he goes on, the unfortunate part is that I was not aware of the charges brought against me until the department interviewed me as part of the investigation.

33:46I also didn't notify the department right away as charges have never been filed to this day. Okay, so again, I'm just going to jump in. This is a tiny bit confusing. I just want to clarify. He's saying he wasn't aware of the charges until his department interviewed him, but then he's saying that charges were never filed. So I think what he means is there are these disciplinary charges brought by the department, which I assume are a matter of, like, personnel and policy, and then there are criminal charges brought by the law. So what he means is he was arrested, but he was never officially criminally charged.

34:17Yes, that's my sense. So he goes on, I initially intended to notify the department about what happened, but after posting bail, I contacted the attorney associated with the union who advised me not to contact the department just yet. He felt I had no obligation to report the incident and that they wouldn't receive any sort of notice from any database since no charges had been filed. But now the department is using that against me. Four days after the incident, they received a pull notice from DOJ, basically a notification from the program that monitors employee records. All of the attorneys I've consulted with feel it was obtained unlawfully.

34:53With still no charges brought against me from the DA, I'm facing termination. Oh man, yeah, this is a tough break. I've been a firefighter with this department for six years, and as far as I know, I've never given them a reason to doubt me. My mental health is at rock bottom. I know it was my fault for consuming alcohol and putting myself in a situation to be accused. But I also know what happened. What would you do if you were in my shoes? Do you have any advice on how to navigate this and hopefully hang on to my job? Signed, stuck in this quagmire after my counsel backfired. Oh, man. Well, look, I'm very sorry this happened to you.

35:30There's a really interesting chain of events here. From the initial trauma of what you saw on the job, to the drinking, to that fateful night, to the investigation, to the termination decision. And I would venture to guess that there are dots to connect even before the trauma that made that experience even more impactful. So your childhood, your life up to that point, your baseline mental health going in. This stuff is, it's complex. But so you're drawing a line through those major events. And at various points along the way, you're saying, yes, this was my fault, but also kind of not my fault.

36:00And I think it's fair to some degree. Clearly, this all cascaded in a way that you couldn't control and might not be entirely fair. But the unspoken theme of your letter to me is how much responsibility do we really have when it comes to poor decisions? And how much accountability do we take when factors outside of our control come around and screw us over? Really interesting questions. We wanted to run all of this by an expert, so we reached out to T.D. De La Pena, a supervisor at a police agency in California and a friend of the show. Yep, and also my police consultant on my short film, who is just a real gem of a human being.

36:33Yeah, he's a great dude, and one of the few cops we've met who has a real appreciation for human nature, a real sensitivity for the difficult parts of the job. So the first thing T.D. said was, you're on the wagon, you're in AA, you're taking care of yourself a lot better. That's really great news. You deserve a lot of credit for that. And like I said, that's the foundation of everything from here on out. Through a few off-the-record conversations, we found that a lot of times, a lot of stuff like this, a lot of these infractions, they can follow you for your whole career. You know, you could end up with an infraction 25 years ago, and people are still bringing that up in performance reviews or talking about it around the office.

37:09It's not something you can easily shake. Unfortunately, in TD's experience, you'll probably always be the pissing-in-the-alley guy, assuming that's what you did. Your colleagues will probably have heard rumors about what happened. The scuttlebutt is real. The officers who arrested you, they might know people at your fire department, all that gossip spreads. As TD explained to us, this is how a professional reputation takes a hit and it can really hamstring your career trajectory. And that's true in like any field, but it seems to be especially true in public safety. Now, you seem to be under the impression that you only needed to notify your department if you were charged criminally.

37:44But TD said that you oftentimes need to notify your department if there's any negative contact with law enforcement. That's the case for all police departments in the state of California anyway. TD wasn't sure if that's the case for fire departments as well, but you're saying that your department is penalizing you for not reporting this. So that makes us think that your department does in fact require employees to say, hey, I got into a situation with the police. Here's what happened. I'm sorry. I want to come clean about it. So to quote TD here, at the end of the day, your internal review is not about whether you're getting charged with a crime or whether you committed a crime.

38:19It's about whether you violated your department's policy, which you clearly did. Now, what sucks is that your union attorney is the one who advised you not to notify the department about what happened. And TD confirmed you do need to listen to your union lawyer on stuff like this. so if they're saying appeal and go to the skelly, then you got to appeal and go to the skelly and you got to take your chances there. So that's where I really feel for you. You were advised by somebody who should know and then that advice that bit you in the ass and was wrong and that sucks. There's no way around it.

38:51And that's the one point in your story where I'm going, this didn't go your way in a way that's unfair and that's not your fault. But that you ended up in a position to be screwed, that part is your responsibility. And I hear you taking responsibility for that in your letter. And I also sometimes hear you not entirely taking responsibility for that. And TD zeroed in on that as well, how you're kind of vacillating here. TD heard a lot of hedging and minimizing in your letter. As a supervisor, he's not a fan of that personally, but that's kind of his personal bias. As he put it to us, this is something that happened.

39:25It's going to play out the way it's going to play out. There's no way to stop that now. What you can do, however, is say, I dealt with my trauma in an unhealthy and irresponsible way. I made several mistakes that got me in hot water. And then you get therapy, you stay sober, accept whatever the consequences are, and then you start focusing on building a new life and career, whether that means rebuilding your reputation at the department you're in, if that's even possible, going to a different department and starting over, or getting into a new field entirely. There's a connection here to Jocko Willink's whole philosophy, right?

39:57The extreme ownership idea. Oh, good point. You got to bite the bullet and take full responsibility, not half responsibility, not responsibility, but responsibility full stop, especially as somebody who works in public safety, because in TD's view, you are held to a higher standard. Yes, for sure. And TD brought up one other good question here, which was, he wondered what your relationships and your reputation were like at your agency before this all happened. Because this whole thing really didn't go your way. And now it sounds like you're probably about to be terminated. And sure, maybe that's just a matter of bureaucracy and bad luck.

40:35But it does make me wonder if people in your department truly had your back before this happened. Because you would be amazed what kind of behavior can be forgiven, what kind of second chances can be extended when the higher ups like you and they respect you and they're invested in you and they want to keep you around. And because there is this slightly wishy-washy responsibility thing happening in this letter, I got to say, I do see TD's point. Now, we're clearly speculating a little bit here. We don't know how you showed up in your job until now. We don't know how people see you. You did say that you've never given them a reason to doubt you, but that's a little bit different from I've built incredible relationships and I've been an outstanding employee and people really admire and respect me.

41:18Those are very different experiences in the workplace. So part of me wonders whether this attitude, this mindset, how it might not have created the trust and the goodwill and the loyalty to absorb a mistake like this. TD's philosophy, pretty simple, don't be a dick. It's a simple rule. No one will have your back because you're going to need the benefit of the doubt one day. And that's just something for you to sit with and consider right now. And if there's any truth to that, even a little bit, then that's something else that you could work on. And that's something that you can definitely take with you into your next chapter.

41:52Right. And that might also be part of the reason that this quote unquote had to happen, right? To show him how absolutely crucial that is. Right. So however the skelly hearing goes, however this shakes out, TD's advice to you is basically this. First off, and this is not going to be news to you. TD's experience is that these incidents almost always stem from unresolved issues, especially in the public safety profession. So his strong recommendation was you really want to talk to a therapist right now. Now you're still employed at the moment, so TD said that you can probably go through the EAP, the Employee Assistance Program, or you can find a wellness or a peer support program, find a therapist that's probably covered by the department.

42:32Second, your rep has taken a really big hit here. It might even be shot even if you don't get fired. So even if you make it through this, at a minimum, you're going to have to work and stay clean for years to fix your reputation. And third, TD said that you have very little control over what happens at this point. The question now is, what is the punishment going to be? TD pointed out that you're not the first person to get in trouble for something like this, right? There are guidelines to follow here, and your department probably already knows what they're going to give you. Now, your punishment might increase or decrease as a result of the skelly.

43:10It's hard to say. But if you're truly facing termination, then you really have nothing to lose. It does not get worse than termination. But if you might be facing just a few months of suspension, things could get worse in a skelly. It's not unheard of. So the skelly is a gamble, just something else to keep in mind. But look, if you do get terminated, TD said that unfortunately, you're probably done as a firefighter. It's terrible, but if you get terminated or suspended for a long time, you're gonna have to find somebody who will take a chance on you, and that can be really hard. But there is some hope here.

43:42Maybe you can work for another agency, the U.S. Forest Service, something like that. Maybe you become an EMT with a private company. Maybe you go into something completely unrelated, like maybe something in the recovery world. That might be very meaningful given your sobriety journey. TD said it's never too late to reinvent yourself, to save yourself, there's always a chance. And he pointed out that the people who initially hired you, they believed in you, they invested in you, and they did that at great expense. They wouldn't do that for no reason. You have the strength, you have skills, you have potential, so hang on to that.

44:12But more than anything, the big wake-up call here is you need to take care of yourself. You need to be a solid human being who treats people well and owns his responsibilities and builds a stellar reputation so that this never happens again. And if you take that lesson to heart, if you apply it wherever you go fully without qualification, I know you're gonna make it through this okay. So hang in there, bud, and good luck. You know what else you're gonna wanna whip out in public, Gabriel? The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors.

44:52All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all in one searchable and clickable place over at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Also, if you can't remember the name of the sponsor or you're like not able to use the deals page for some odd reason, you can email me, jordan at jordanharbinger.com. I will happily surface a code for you because it is that important that you support those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next? Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a partial owner of a small business and we're currently in our fourth year. It's been a struggle and a huge learning experience, but we're finally in a position to have a really good, profitable year.

45:31The problem is, my business partner, to put it bluntly, sucks. He's not around very often, which is annoying when I'm there pretty much every day. When he is around, he frequently pisses off our employees and is generally disrespectful to them, and sometimes even to me. This makes it really hard when I'm the one who all the employees like and respect, and I have to hold the company together because without our employees, we would not survive. He's the typical boss, not a leader. Uh, yeah, kind of know exactly what you mean here. I and several others have had conversations with him about treating employees better and being more present, and it seems to go in one ear and out the other 99 % of the time.

46:12Interesting. So this guy almost certainly isn't going to change. He just doesn't, he doesn't want to hear it. Doesn't sound like it. Also, being more present, eh, something you can work on. if you want to, but treating people just decently, like basically decently, that's a character thing, right? That's harder to change. Sounds so familiar. This guy sounds like an a-hole and he's incompetent on a number of levels. It's very hard, next to impossible to work with people like this. He also wants to grow the business at what I feel is an unsustainable pace and borrow a ton of money, which scares the hell out of me.

46:46Yeah. Yeah. Oh, and we're going to have to use your credit, you're going to have to be a personal guarantor as well. So yeah, get to it. Okay, I'm going to answer that one right off the bat. Do not take out loans with a partner who wants to grow the business at breakneck speed, especially when they are not putting in the work and they are not behaving like a leader who can deliver on that growth. Nothing good will come from that. You're going to end up being on the hook personally, and then that guy's going to end up jumping ship or sinking the ship. I concur. Totally. So he goes on, while we will likely finally make some good money this year, I can't help but think I just want out.

47:23I recently got married, I have my first child on the way, and I don't want my kid to grow up with a super stressed out unhappy dad. But I'm not sure where to go from here. If I stay, there's a pretty good chance I'll make a ton of money over the next decade or so. But my shares of the company are worth a decent amount right now, about$200 ,000 to$300 ,000. I could do a lot with that money, including starting my own business. I'm sure I could even bring a handful of my current employees with me, but I would feel bad kneecapping my business partner. But the company doesn't even have that kind of cash to buy me out of my shares.

47:56Bingo. One thing I've learned over the years, the value of your shares, usually those are not as valuable as you think. If you're not a publicly traded company, those shares, that share value, it's like, it's just monopoly money because they're only valuable if somebody's willing and is able to buy them. And if not, then I'm sorry to say those shares are, they're worthless. But also if your partner does buy you out, that deal is probably going to come with some sort of non-compete agreement, which I mean, I don't see why it wouldn't. And sometimes the non-compete is actually worse than the buyout, especially if you're talented and enterprising like you are.

48:30Right. So he goes on, I could also get a job in the same industry making more than I am now. Should I dissolve my shares and leave with nothing, but do so relatively stress-free? Do I make an agreement with the company to pay me over a certain time period? If the company goes bankrupt without me before I get paid out, what do I do? Should I wait it out until the company has more money for me to exit with? And how do I talk to my partner about all this? Signed, leaving a situation that's fatal when there's a good chunk of change on the table. Okay, so many thoughts. So if you know my story at all, you know that this letter hits very close to home.

49:05Long story short, I went through a bad business breakup, six or seven, probably, is it seven years? I don't even know slash care. Now, I worked with some very difficult partners, ones who engaged in a lot of the same behavior as yours. It took me years to come to terms with those challenges with my decision to leave until finally, my old partners essentially made the decision for me and we were in the midst of separating amicably like you think you're gonna do and they were just like, what if we give you nothing? Which is how I started this show, which is basically the best slash worst but actually the best most amazing thing that ever happened to me.

49:40So let me start by saying your partner's behavior, it's objectively problematic. It's extremely difficult to work with and work on and I'm sorry that you have to deal with that. If this guy was just kind of brash or he's like bad with social cues or he's a little scatterbrained or any number of more minor flaws and you talk to him about it and he was like, oh wow, yeah, I can do better, I'll work on this, that's a different story. that's not this guy. You and several other people have talked to him about this, and he's just not interested in changing. Now, I don't know exactly how you talk to him.

50:13I don't know if you guys tiptoed around him or you minimized things, you failed to follow through, maybe he didn't get the message, but the message is pretty clear, and it sounds to me like you have enough data now to know that this guy is not a healthy, productive, uplifting partner. So given all that, I'm gonna be real direct with you. I would seriously consider leaving this company, And I know that that's scary, but just hear me out here. Everything you've described screams guy who wants all the glory and power and wealth, but is absolutely not willing to put in the work and conduct himself in a way that would achieve those things.

50:46And when you're up against that, in my experience, it's a no-win situation. I'm afraid it's only going to get worse from here on out. And by sticking with somebody like this because there's potential money in it, I mean, I'm 95 % sure your concerns and your resentment, they're only going to grow. and you're gonna pay the price with your happiness like you alluded to in your letter, which now that you're a husband and a father, that price is even higher because other people depend on you and are affected by you. You owe it to them to be healthy and high-functioning as well as to yourself. Now, if you can get this guy to buy your shares with a payment plan over time, that's obviously worth pushing for.

51:24But again, look, I don't know how realistic that is. Plus, there's gonna be a potential non-compete that could really hold you back, which is yet another reason I would not over-index the value of your shares in this equation. In fact, I think they might be hurting you by making you cling to this toxic situation. So yes, I would at least be willing to dissolve your shares and leave with nothing if it meant finding a situation that's healthier, happier, potentially more lucrative. The worst case scenario is you leave with no buyout and no non-compete, and you can go work for somebody else in your industry, or you can start your own shop, which is what you said you might wanna do earlier.

52:00but even then, you're not really leaving with nothing. You know the best people in the company. You have their loyalty. You know how to run a company in this space. That is extremely valuable and I know from my own experience, I undervalued that when I left my previous company. I was like, I'm gonna have to start over. It's gonna be impossible. It took 11 years to get here and now, and then like a year later, I'm like, no, I know how to run a good podcast. I know how to hire. I brought my whole team over because they all left the previous company with me because they didn't like the other guys either.

52:29So even if you have to leave with quote unquote nothing, there's a really good chance you have zero obligation to your partner and you could just poach most of the staff you need and you could really eat his lunch and he's kind of left with no recourse. I would obviously talk to a lawyer about that so you don't get into hot water with trade secret law and stuff like that, but I've got my doubts that he's gonna be in a position to do anything about you poaching some staff. And if the company goes bankrupt before you get paid out, that's gonna make you a creditor of the company and you're going to bend over like everybody else, like every credit card and other vendor that is owed money by this company and never gets squat, which honestly, you file a proof of claim, you hope for the best, you literally forget about it.

53:10And any money you get is gravy and basically just luck. And yes, if you have a reasonable degree of confidence that the company will get more money in the next like six months or so, sure, time your exit with the company being in a better position if you can do that. Yeah, but then if the company is in a better position and if it can stay in that position long enough to actually continue paying him out, then I would imagine it would be because of him, right? So if he leaves, how is he going to make the company successful to then do right by him? That's the same situation I was in. It was like, I'm leaving and you can buy me out.

53:41And my lawyer was like, dude, you run, you generate all the leads and you get all of the sales and you manage the sales team and the production team. What are these yuts is going to do to generate revenue to pay you out? Nothing. And I was like, I'm so mad. I remember I was like, I'm so mad. I want to do something bad. And my lawyer was like, you have done the single most damaging thing to this company that you possibly could, which is leave it in the care of these two morons. And the judge actually is the one who kind of nodded and laughed at that, which tells you something. I mean, the impartial mediator judge was like, yeah, that's pretty much how I see it.

54:14Like, these guys are dumbasses. You should just leave. I mean, the judge can't say that, but the fact that he chuckled and smiled and nodded was enough for me. I also like the idea of you getting a job in the same industry. You said you'd be making more doing that than you are now. That's awesome. That could be a great move, especially as a soon-to-be dad. Stability is important too. And having a stable job while you lay out the groundwork for starting your own company in a year or two, that could also be a smart strategy. Maybe it takes time to ramp up. Maybe it takes longer than you think sometimes.

54:44I really don't know what you're in. Yeah, and who knows? Maybe you end up working for somebody amazing and you keep learning and you meet even more people in your industry. I mean, that could be a crucial move before you start your own business. For sure. Just I would say one thing. Don't feel like you need a safety net just for the sake of having that safety net. I mean, it's often better to take momentum you have from running your own business and just parlay it into doing your own business again. There's costs emotionally, mentally associated with like, now I'm in a corporate environment again where things are more lax and I can take my foot off the gas and I'm not in charge.

55:15And then, oh, all right, I got to start my own company. And it's like, OK, you got to rip off that Band-Aid again. Right now, you are going from running your own thing to running your own thing. The transition's tough, but I don't necessarily think it's gonna be tougher than going back to corporate and then back out on your own. I don't necessarily think those things are equivalent. Now, as for talking to your partner about all this, first of all, definitely check your partnership agreement or whatever contract you have. Make sure you don't have a non-compete or some other clause that's gonna take you by surprise or bite you in the ass if you quit.

55:46Second, hire a lawyer, like right now, and have them read the contract and advise you on how to proceed, how to communicate with your partner, how to prepare for what's ahead. You do not want to be scrambling to find an attorney the day after you leave or things blow up. You want to be way out in front of that and have a good relationship with a good lawyer already. This is key, because the one huge advantage you have right now is time and timing. You've got time to get your ducks in a row, plus you basically have the element of surprise when you decide to pull the trigger. And I guarantee you this narcissistic prick of a business partner, he's gonna be like, what?

56:20You can't leave? Well, screw you if you wanna leave. That's how these guys kind of all predictably react. So make the most of that advantage. Put all the pieces for your exit in place, your relationships, your finances, your strategy. Do that before you have this conversation and you'll be 12 steps ahead of this dude. And then if the worst happens, which it unfortunately sometimes does, like I said, you're gonna be so prepared, it's not gonna be nearly as bad. You're not gonna lose sleep being like, oh my God, I wish I'd done this. you're gonna be like, I'm so glad I did that two months ago before this guy had a meltdown.

56:50Third, like I said, partners like this who are egomaniacs, in my experience, they do not like to feel backed into a corner, they're gonna lash out. So if you decide to quit, I would frame this transition like it's a choice. Instead of saying like, I'm leaving, or you gotta leave, you might wanna say, hey, so I'm actually thinking about leaving the company, what is sort of the best way for us to do that? I don't wanna disrupt business, you know, do you wanna take it over? Do you want me to buy you out, whatever? I mean, actually, in fact, let me get back to that. I think you asking him is going to stroke his ego and make him feel like he's still in charge.

57:23Also, if you say, I'm leaving the company, your partner could retaliate. He could fire you. He could pull all sorts of stuff. That's actually what happened to me, right? It was just like pure retaliation to the detriment of the company, which was not terribly surprising, but I also, I guess I underestimated just how much somebody would cut off their nose to spite their face. Don't make that same mistake. And if he isn't interested in taking over the company, then maybe you say, Okay, do you want me to take it over and buy you out? Assuming that's something you'd want, of course. And if he says yes, then it's going to seem like it's almost his idea.

57:54And that's going to go a lot better for you. And then promise yourself that you'll do everything in your power to avoid partnering with somebody like this again in the future. So look, I'm really sorry your partner's like this. It's a damn shame. But I'm super excited for you. And I'm not just saying that because I know what it's like to be stuck in a toxic partnership. I know how draining it is. and I also know what it's like to finally get out and take your life back. It's incredible, especially, you're gonna be surprised. Like I said, I ran a company for 11 years. The first year that I was out, we made more profit than that company ever made in any peak year.

58:30It was incredible. It was absolutely incredible. In six months or a year or whatever, you're gonna look back and be like, I am so lucky that this happened. When other people told me, when I was going through the company breakup, they were like, this is gonna be the best thing that ever happened to you. I wanted to punch those people straight in the face, but they were 100 % correct over time. You're going to leave this company. You're going to start something new without carrying the dead weight of this business partner that's good for nothing. Or you're going to get a great job with a great company somewhere you're going to do even better, and you're never going to look back.

59:02You will not. I'm one of those people who can confidently say, through my own personal experience and almost the exact same situation, that this is going to be the best thing that ever happened to you, even if the transition is stressful. I think a famous writer once said, life's too short to read a bad book. There are some parallels here with careers. Life is just too damn short to work with a-holes who don't want to work on themselves and don't want to change. And I firmly believe that. We only get one shot at all this. So make it fun, make it successful, make it high functioning. And I'm, like I said, I'm pumped for you, man.

59:35Good luck in whatever you decide to do. Hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everybody who wrote in this week and everybody who listened, thank you so much. Don't forget to check out the Bobby Gunn episode as well as Out of the Loop on Israel and Iran if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people that I know, like, and trust. And if you're going through a transition like the guy in Q4 back there, I highly suggest this course for you. It's free. It's called Six Minute Networking. It's not gross and schmoozy.

1:00:01It's on the Thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com. The drills take a few minutes a day. This is invaluable. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Dig the well before you get thirsty people. Build those relationships before you need them. Sixminutenetworking.com. Find us on the subreddit. Comment on episodes. We don't control that subreddit. There's only a few people in there, but we are conversing and discussing shows, and Gabe and I pop in there from time to time. Also, our newsletter over at jordanharbinger.com slash news. We're going to be doing a new format there, but that has been quite popular and a lot of fun for us.

1:00:32We dig into old episodes, find out those gems, pull out the takeaways. So if you want to know what to listen to next or you want to re-examine a takeaway from a previous episode, jordanharbinger.com slash news is where you can find it. Show notes and transcripts on the website at jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, discounts, and most importantly, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. I'm at jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's over on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One.

1:01:05My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I am a lawyer, but I am not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. if you're looking for another episode of the jordan harbinger show to sink your teeth into here's a trailer for another episode that i think you might enjoy if you're not honest with yourself then how do you ever move your life in the positive direction because you're starting from a point to fantasy nobody can succeed if you're not honest with themselves revenue cures all you know when i talk to people in business seminars and they say you know john my labor cost is high, my marketing cost is high, my promotion cost is high, my tech cost is high.

1:02:04But if I could raise your revenue by 30%, you wouldn't have tech cost problems anymore. You wouldn't have labor cost problems. So it's the ultimate pacifier of every problem that exists in our lives. If we focus on top line, which means I wake up in the morning and the first thing I do is how do I monetize myself right now? How do I drive revenue? That is the first thing I have to do today. Then I can deal with all of the other things that I have to do. There's nothing more important to an entrepreneur than revenue. And if they don't wake up every morning and think about revenue first thing, they probably shouldn't be an entrepreneur.

1:02:40And I'm going to say something that's going to upset some people. Sometimes when I go to these businesses and I see a bartender, people say, he's been a bartender for 10 years. He should be the manager. No. If he's been a bartender for 10 years and he hasn't bubbled up, then he's the last guy who should be. Some people are comfortable where they are and you promote them right out of the company. That guy who's been a bartender for 10 years, leave him alone. The person who's not comfortable, who's bubbling up on their own, that's the one who should be promoted, even if they've only been with you for a couple of months.

1:03:11I don't believe that you can make a leader. I don't believe you can train a leader. I don't believe you can make a leader. The Pied Piper, you would have followed them off a cliff. Leadership is boring. It's not given. For more no-nonsense business advice with Bar Rescue star John Taffer, check out episode 142 of The Jordan Harbinger Show. This episode is sponsored in part by Everything Everywhere Daily. You've heard the phrase, learn something new every day. Sounds nice, but do you actively do it? That's where Everything Everywhere Daily comes in. This podcast makes it effortless. Just 10 minutes a day, you'll walk away with a fascinating fact, a slice of history, a science gem.

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1:04:15This episode is sponsored in part by the Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a great new podcast can feel like searching for a needle in a haystack. Let me save you some hassle. Check out Something You Should Know with my friend Mike Carruthers. Every episode is packed with fascinating insights that you can actually use. Mike interviews top experts on topics that shape your life, like how to optimize your brain chemistry, the best and worst ways to apologize, probably could have used that recently, why couples hate to talk about money. No matter the topic, Mike asks the questions you'd want to ask, getting straight to the good stuff, and the conversations are always engaging, always insightful, guaranteed to leave you a little smarter than before.

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