Bruce Flatt on Value, Discipline, and Durability

31:17But if that product comes back, you've actually added jobs. And that's very positive, which sort of leads to the long-term story of America, which is the long-term story of America is extremely strong because the US today has energy, capital, and technology dominance. Energy, capital, and technology dominance. There's nobody in the world that has the technology businesses that the US has. There's nothing in the world that has the capital markets the US has. And the US, just by nature, has dominance, nature and some hard work, has dominance in oil, in gas, in solar, and in wind, and it has dominance in nuclear.

32:10And those five things together give it energy dominance in the world for a long, long period of time. And so I think those three things are going to make, on top of one of the greatest GDPs in the world, an entrepreneurial class, manufacturing moving back, at least to some extent, a lot or to some extent on balance is going to be positive for growth. The US has a pretty good runway going forward. It sounds like you think we're at an inflection point for productivity and some of the job losses will be offset by sort of the remanufacturing coming back to the US. How do you, where do you think we are in that, like that game, I guess?

33:00There is no straight line in anything. Everyone always thinks that somebody says something and it's going to happen tomorrow morning. Usually it happens in greater amounts, but it takes longer periods of time and takes slower than you think it would happen. I would say we're in the early stages of all of this. we're going to see productivity advances and nobody just flips a switch. The thing is nobody ever flips a switch. These are incremental changes over very long periods of time but what it means is that the application of greater intelligence into businesses is going to make business better, more efficient, more productive, and better for the world, frankly.

33:51That just makes us all smarter. You mentioned real estate. How has that changed over the past, I would say, 10, but specifically five years? Again, I would say over the past 25, 30 years, 10 years, five years, these things always just evolve. And industrial capacity used to be just used for manufacturing, storage of goods. And today it's used for transportation of many goods that are delivered to homes. So industrial has enormously changed as a business over the past 10 years. Retail has changed because people used to do all their shopping in stores. Today, what they do is they do very bespoke shopping in stores and they want experiences in stores.

34:45But if you want to buy paper towels, you usually don't go to the mall. You just order it online. But if you want to have a meal and you want to go and try on a shirt or a pair of pants or have some fun for the afternoon, you go to the mall. And that's what's changed is that commodity goods, if you own commodity, if you own almost today commodity anything, it's bad. If you own commodity office, bad. If you own commodity retail, bad. If you own commodity industrial, bad. In fact, if you own commodity hotels, bad. What's great today is all of those things in the top 25%. And our view always has been buy the best, own the best, buy the best, continue to reinvest into the best.

35:33And so our real estate is among the best in the world. And we continue to experience some great numbers. Look, over the last five years, because of COVID and because of other things, and because interest rates went up by 400, 500 base points, all of that disrupted the real estate market. but the worst is behind us by far. We're looking in the rearview mirror by what happened in real estate. And in fact, this time, the fundamentals are actually pretty good in most things. It's just there are some people that have capital structures that aren't built for these financing markets, and therefore they have to put capital in to be able to deleverage or whatever they have to do or somebody else will take over the asset.

36:28But that's not a huge issue across the world. Maybe spend a few minutes and sort of like take me behind the scenes in how you think about risk and how you think about interest rates and how you think about debt when it comes to assets. Our fundamental thesis of investing is that you should put a prudent amount of debt on assets that can withstand markets. If you can, then you should fix it because you know your cost. And from time to time, if you got it wrong, make sure you have a little more money around to put it in and support your asset. So we've always conservatively financed our businesses and assets.

37:14All of our financing is asset by asset by asset by asset or business by business by business by business. So any debt that we accumulate onto our consolidated balance sheet is just the accumulation of a whole bunch of single asset financings. And it's not that we ever want to or think that we will give back assets or not live up. In fact, our reputation is with our lenders is that we're one of the best sponsors in the world to borrow, lend money to because we support our businesses. But having asset by asset by asset financing allows you to just deal with the situation one by one by one. And its duration, I mean, they're spread over long, long periods of time.

38:01and with interest rates, I think the most important thing to remember is we don't borrow the treasury rate. Only the government borrows at treasury rates. And what we borrow at is treasury rate plus spread. And historically, spreads were 200 basis points and interest rates were 300 basis points, and therefore you borrowed at five. And when COVID hit, interest rate, the treasury rate went to zero. And what most of the lenders said to us is, I'm not going to lend you at 200 over and give you three. I'm widening that out to 350. 50. So I'll give you five or four and a half. And therefore, before we were borrowing at five, and in COVID, we were borrowing at four and a half.

38:56So when people say, oh, geez, you got all this financing in COVID, yes, maybe some people did. And some people got very low rates because rates were zero and they might have borrowed at two at an extreme point in time, but not very much. And most of it, lenders just widened the spread out. Today, base rates are high. We're back to five. Guess what? Spreads are the lowest they've ever been in history. We just did a 30-year Brookfield Corporation financing. So we're borrowing money for 30 years, fixed for that time period and is 125 over. So spreads, basically all in coupons are important. And that's really important to remember about investing in real assets, real estate, but also infrastructure, renewables, et cetera.

39:55What distortions do you see by sort of like historically low interest rates? And even by today's standards, You mentioned they went up. They have gone up quite a bit, but historically, they're still well below average. Yeah. Look, I think that maybe is the most important point to note here is that interest rates aren't that high. They're higher than they were because interest rates went to zero. And for a number of years after the financial crisis, they were close to zero. And now they're actually in a relatively normal range. I'm sure we're going to see another 50, 100 base points off of the short rates.

40:39And we're going to settle into just a regular range of rates. But these rates are actually pretty normal and for our business, very constructive. And the things that we can do and we're refinancing it because the coupons aren't that much different than what they were before. People, we talked about sort of dislocations providing opportunities and, you know, maybe spend a few minutes walking me through how you think of positioning to manage the recycle, but not only maintain your assets, but also take advantage of dislocations in the market. So the first thing one has to do when there are dislocations in the market is make sure that you were prepared for it.

41:26So the one thing you should do always when times are really good is ensure that you're preparing for the down market that's coming. The ones that don't usually aren't successful in the fullness of time. But if you are prepared, the first order of business is let's double down and make sure that we're fully prepared. But then secondly, and I'd say coming out of recessions or cycles, coming out of the bottom, what's most important is just have everything you have intact. Do not lose anything. Do not lose too much. And keep going because there'll be many people who will have lost stuff. what's even better to enhance the business is at that point in time as the market's starting to recover and once you're comfortable we've taken care of all the things within our business that you can then invest capital into new businesses at that point in time and add to your entity.

42:33And if you can, that's the difference between the great winners and long-term investing and those that are just in the middle. You have almost, well, you have over a trillion dollars in management now. How do you fend off the pressure to deploy that money? It sounds like a lot of money. It is a lot of money. It sounds like a lot of money. It's a trillion dollars. But it's not that much when you do what we do. A couple of years ago, we bought Deutsche Telecoms, half a Deutsche Telecoms, telecom tower business in Germany and Austria. It's a$20 billion transaction. We're building for Microsoft$13 billion of power plants.

43:18We're building with Intel a$32 billion fabrication plant in Arizona. I can go through the list. These are large transactions that consume significant amounts of capital that earn excellent long-term returns. And I've just used that to say, we've been doing this a long time. What we promise our investors and our clients is that we will take moderate amounts of risk, not no risk, but moderate amounts of risk and earn good returns over long periods of time. We won't shoot the lights out. You're not going to get 45 % returns every year. And we're not trying for that. But average returns over an above average period of time equal outstanding returns.

44:13Yeah. And that's the point. The point is we've earned, our parent companies earn 19 % annualized returns for 30 years. When you compound up, which doesn't sound like very much, 19 % returns annualized for 30 years. When you say that in that line, it doesn't sound like that much. But I think that's a million dollars became almost $200 million over that period of time, or$1 ,000 became$200 ,000. It's a lot. And so the point is success in investing isn't about making a lot of money in a short period of time. What it's really about is earning reasonable returns over very long periods of time. And look, that's Berkshire Hathaway.

44:58Berkshire Hathaway is successful because they have been able to deploy capital at reasonable rounds of turn over very long periods of time. And that's the success of long-term investing. Is that a company you look up to? Look, they've done an incredible job in their business over a very long period of time. Maybe you mentioned over 30 years. Walk me through a little bit of the history of Brookfield and then the future, where we're going. So we started as an operating business. We just invested for ourselves. we had the businesses that we basically have today. Infrastructure, real estate, renewables, and industrial service we call private equity today, businesses, and credit lending.

45:48Those were our five businesses. We did it for ourselves and we lent money. And 25 years ago, we decided that we could take those skills we had and turn them into a business to be able to manage some of our money and some of our institutional or other clients' money and offer alternatives into those funds. When it started, nobody wanted to invest with us because they didn't really understand alternatives. And today that's turned into a trillion dollar business. It's been extremely successful largely because these products are ideal for institutional and retail clients to invest into. And the past 25 years has been about institutional and this comment is not meant to say that they won't be investing.

46:46But their increase from going from zero to some of them are at 30, 40, 50 % alternatives. When you go from zero to 50, it can't go to 100. So a lot of them are at their numbers. But what's happening today and to your question of the future is that the same phenomena is now happening in retail, retail being individuals. 401ks in the US are going to open up to alternatives. I think plans around the world will open up to alternatives. Alternatives are ideal products for retail as well. In fact, they're almost more ideal because you're saving for your retirement. And what better to have in there than a product that earns a reasonable return over a very long period of time and can compound?

47:41And so the future of our asset management business is really about that, the opening up of retail and continued growth of retail wealth with our products. Doing the same things that we do for institutions, exact same. But now just opening up in different types of products that are suited or tailored for individuals. What does that mean? Maybe walk me through it because I've always thought you've had these available to people. I could go buy Brookfield infrastructure on the public market. You can buy it in the public market that fits in a stock portfolio, but to date, we haven't offered you a product for your 401k in the private market that was open to you to say, do you want to buy infrastructure with us and just own a bunch of data centers and different things like that?

48:41We happen to have a couple of listed ones that are very unique, but what people want is private assets within their portfolios, and that's going to increase, I'd say, exponentially over the next 20 years. So retail is sort of the future, but another big area that you're investing in is insurance. Maybe walk me through some of the opportunities you see over the next 20 or 30 years in insurance? Yeah. So outside of our asset management business, we decided to take a portion of our capital and put it into insurance five years ago. It was a fortuitous time because we bought some excellent insurance companies at a point in time where they weren't doing very well because interest rates were extremely low and they weren't earning very high returns on their capital.

49:32Fast forward four years later, the companies are doing extremely well. We're making$2 billion a year of cash flow within the business. And insurance for us is, I'd say the following. Firstly, and maybe just to go back, our goal was get in the insurance business, not because we wanted to be in insurance. What our goal is, is our clients come to us because they want our investment skills. What we have is a very unique offering, is a bunch of investment skills that can create products for long-term investors. Our insurance company now, being$120 billion of assets, is a perfect long-term investor into all of the things we do from our asset management business.

50:27So we have a special expertise to be able to offer because we have access to our investment products. We have greater access or greater comfort with all the investment products to be able to put into the insurance companies than most other groups out there. Maybe there's a few others like us, but not very many. and therefore we have a special benefit for that. So we've chosen annuities in the United States largely. So far we've now just got licensed in the United Kingdom. Why annuities? What appeals to you about that? It's just because they're low risk liabilities. We're not taking on high risk on the liability side.

51:14Our goal originally in getting into this was don't take risk on the liabilities, earn our money on the asset side, and we have this unique ability to earn excess returns on the asset side. And our goal was put very significant amounts of capital and overcapitalize the businesses, which allows us to do things on the asset side of the balance sheet, which is very different than many insurance companies. Like what? We can own real estate to a greater extent. We can own alternatives to a greater extent. We can own infrastructure to a greater extent. We can own high-yield bonds as opposed to just fixed income on the market.

51:59All the things that we do for our clients, we can put them in the insurance company. And they may take more capital, but we've overcapitalized the company. So we started with$4 billion. We've increased the capital, I think, to$16,$17 billion of book equity within the business. We continue to overcapitalize. But on top of that, we have another$150 billion of capital up top that if we need more money, we'll put it into the insurance companies to ensure they're healthy and better than any that are out there. And we have an excellent relationship with the regulators and explain all these things to them and are very transparent with all the transactions we do with them.

52:43and we happen to have some very unique things that we can do because, for example, if we own an office building and somebody owns the other half and they want to sell and we know that's a really cheap price they're going to sell at, that's a great real estate investment for our insurance company. Very seldom do people have that opportunity with our knowledge and access to opportunities. So it's a pretty unique offering and that's what we bring to the table. Do you think you'll get out of annuity, well, stay in annuities but expand into other businesses? I'm imagining short duration stuff is probably a property and casualties.

53:27It doesn't lend itself to that type of investing but maybe reinsurance or? Yeah, look, I would say we wanted to start. This is a 25-year venture. We're five years in. we wanted to start to make sure that we knew what we were doing. We met all our regulators. We earned their respect. And we could operate and figure out what were all the risks. We've been in it five years. We're very comfortable. Over time, we may branch out into other types of other products that we can understand that fit our skill set. And that's really what's important to us. So first, we're expanding internationally, writing annuities or pension risk transfer annuities, which both are very similar.

54:23So instead of going out of our comfort zone on the type of liability, what we're doing today is we're expanding to the UK, which is a big pension risk transfer market. And that's just a different way to expand. Are the pension risks defined benefit or defined contribution? These are pension risk transfer means, which happens in the US, Canada, and the UK largely, those three places in the world. What it means is that if there's a corporation that has a defined benefit plan that wants to get it off their balance sheet. So they have a$10 billion plan. There's 10 billion assets, 10 billion liabilities.

55:08They can commute that plan to us and our insurance company can take it. So they're no longer on the hook for the plan. They're no longer at risk on the assets or the liabilities. We've assumed that risk. We will now pay their pensioners. And they gave us the assets to earn over time, hopefully, the amount of money to pay all their pensioners. And if not, we're on the hook for it. Not them. Can you spend a few minutes walking me through the machinery of Brookfield and why you've structured it the way you have? Look, I would just say... I'll preface this with one of the criticisms from the outside in is that it's super complicated.

55:46There's a lot of different entities and moving parts. How do you think through that? So I would just say that, yes, there are probably more pieces of Brookfield. First-hand, I might disagree first by saying there are many companies in the world that are large like us, and they have as many pieces as we do. That's the first point. So I'm not sure that's actually a true statement, but I'll take your points at face value. And I would just say each one of the pieces we've set up has been highly thought through and contributes a lot to the business. These are not random things we've done. They're very specific and they contribute enormous value in the long term to the company.

56:39And because of that, we have to explain them more to maybe, sometimes have to explain them more to investors. But for our friends, they understand exactly why those pieces are there and what they do for us and what each accomplishes. In the short term, we could wave a wand and get rid of all those, as you denote, complicated parts. We could wave a wand and get rid of them all. In the long term, it would be bad for shareholders. Less returns would be earned. We would be more at financial risk. We have the maximum amount of flexibility within our structure to be able to go through, deal with opportunities, risks, and everything that's out there.

57:34So I just, I, look, we can always do better on explaining the pieces and we try all the time. And it's incredibly, our reputation is incredibly important to us. So when people criticize us about our structure, our different things that are there, we try to double down and make sure we explain it all to people. But what I would just say that each of those pieces is really important. and contribute a lot to the business. Hypothetically, if you were to all put it under one umbrella, how would that change the opportunity set available to you? It would just mean dilution to some shareholder. And for example, we spun off our asset management business two years ago.

58:25There's a whole group of U.S. investors, largely, that buy asset management businesses that only want to be invested in asset management. They don't want to own assets that we own. They don't want to be invested in insurance. They don't want to do all the other things we do. They don't want to change. Our parent company, Brookfield Corporation, it has changed in 35 years in many different ways in many different times for the benefit of all of us. But you need to trust us when we're changing. Brookfield Asset Management is a pure play asset management business that's asset light that will probably never be anything different.

59:12You can trust us for that, and that's what it is. So they're just different audiences. And it just allows us to have a security, which is tailored to that audience. And if we want to offer it to somebody in the public markets or to another alternative manager we want to merge in or something, it gives us the opportunity to do that and not have to deal with all the other issues that we have. What about your insurance business? Or what about your investments? Or what are you going to do next? And it just allows us to do that. So I don't, we could do it. It just would take away a lot of the great benefits we have in the organization.

59:54If you put your investor Bruce hat on, which of the businesses do you think is the best positioned for the next 15 years? And I'm not asking returns. I just mean, which business do you think is the best competitively positioned? I just think they're all different. They're all totally different. Everything we invest into has enormous opportunity going forward as long as we execute properly. But each one of them is different. I get excited. I could get excited about having all of my net worth in every single one of them. And they're all pretty exciting going forward. Maybe spend a few minutes on talent and people.

1:00:38Brookfield is known to take really big bets with what from the outside looking in would be young people. What do you see in people that gives you the confidence to take bets in them? How do you build a culture where meritocracy rises and people can take big bets? So we've always had the view that, well, firstly, we're an extreme meritocracy. This is a partnership. It's a partnership of individuals. uh when when we leave the partnership are shares that if you're an owner or controller of the partnership they go away they go on to somebody else so um nobody's family will ever uh will ever be part of this partnership it's a meritocracy second we've always had the view that um a cross between wise, older people and smart, aggressive, young people both give you the gravitas to deal with situations which you need a little history, but also allow you to know more about what's going on today.

1:01:53I'm positive our 30-year-olds today in the business know more about technology than I do because they've grown up with it differently. It allows us to be faster, better, quicker to every new trend in the world and what's going on out there. And it also, I'd say, creates a culture where people want to be here and get ahead because they know they can. And so I – look, we brought to the partners and to our senior people three years ago, we brought Connor Teske forward as the next person that will be the CEO of the asset management business. That was internally vetted. It was then externally vetted.

1:02:46And today we're in the process of him continuing to meet clients and investors and all those kind of things. And I think he's 37 years old today. He's incredibly passionate, talented, and he'll bring through a whole new group of people within the company. And re-energizing businesses is what makes them better and different. Walk me through some of those meetings where you're making a big investment decision. What goes on behind the scenes? How do you quantify risk? Where do you spend your time on deals? Our investment process is we only invest in things that we deal with and know. We have people on the ground and our knowledge of the business.

1:03:33And our investment committees are normally only focused on downside protection. upside will always take care of itself. And whether you shoot for 16%, 22%, 29%, 18%, none of those matter. They're all great. What's really important is what are the risks? What can go wrong? How bad could it get? And how do we deal with it if that happens? and so we spend virtually all of our time on townside protection at our investment committees and that's all that's important to us when you're wrong where are you typically wrong and you haven't been wrong a lot no no look we make mistakes we try to make small mistakes i'd say that's it when we're wrong where are we wrong we're wrong in increment in small ways which aren't have you you don't know about them very much because in the last 35 years we've been right generally on the large things and nothing has been irreparably harmful and and that's because the things we do are small incremental and when we make mistakes we we we We make them along the way.

1:05:01And we encourage people to keep learning and growing because if you don't make some mistakes, you never advance. But do not make big mistakes. And I'd say that's the biggest thing we try to impress across the organization. You mentioned the investment committee. I just wonder, behind the scenes, are investment decisions signed off by one person or is it a committee that signs off? And if it's a committee, how do you hold people accountable or responsible for those? So usually what happens is some transaction came into the company some way or we had an idea and we don't talk to somebody and a transaction came about.

1:05:43It's then approved by today because we have these vast businesses. It's approved in the business. But then we have one committee that it's almost like an allocation committee up top because we want to know how many across the organization. We want to know how many transactions are happening at any one point in time. So we're not compromising, like you said, how could you make a mistake? If everybody made a massive transaction at the same point in time, what we're probably betting on is a cycle. And you may not want that. And if you do, you better knowingly do it. And so in addition to all the deals being approved down below where accountability comes from, we have an oversight committee that approves everything that goes on in the organization, which includes six or eight of us.

1:06:35And that approves everything really just to be a final governor over the entire organization. Are there patterns to cycles that you notice in advance of them happening where you're like, we're at the first inning or we're at the late stages? What are the signs that you look for? I would just say that cycles are never the same, but they sort of rhyme and they look similar. So the one thing of having wise older guys around, I'll consider myself that today. I used to be a young, unwise individual. I'll try to consider myself. I know I'm old, just not sure I'm wise. But some of the reason for having the wiser individual around is having the elongated knowledge of what goes on in cycles and what goes on in periods.

1:07:44And we've seen this before is helpful. Sometimes it's a hindrance. Sometimes it's very helpful for context. And therefore, what makes great organizations, I think, in our view, is that you have the combination of the tenacity and passion to make investments and be successful, tempered by the knowledge and skills of past and what's gone wrong. to be able to bring together risk management and drive to succeed. I'm curious how you would teach me to that knowledge of cycles. How would you pass that on to somebody in your organization or me if you were to hear the things I look for or don't look for or you know I would say uh in general we don't do training quote unquote but every day every single person in this organization is learning and it's a it's a learned by osmosis process we have open plan uh in the place including myself never had an office and uh and people talk to one another, and it's very interactive.

1:09:11And therefore, while I started off by saying we don't train anybody, we train them every single day. And it's just different than sending people to school. Do you do postmortems after an investment? And what's the cadence of this? Oh, yeah, especially the bad ones. What goes into those? Walk me through that. Take me behind the scenes. We try to look at, look, the successful ones, you can usually identify and know what happened. The unsuccessful ones are harder to identify what happened. But often there are reasons why. And it either comes down to execution. You didn't execute properly. you had you missed time the market or you just made a bad bad flawed investment decision and those are the worst you missed time the market yeah you know it's okay but making flawed investment decisions is really bad is that where you you've got the business strength wrong, the competitive dynamics wrong?

1:10:22You don't understand? I just, sometimes it's, we're, sometimes we're pushing out into areas which are adjunct to what we do and we probably shouldn't have. We really didn't know what we were doing. And not often does it happen, but once in a while. How much of your investment decision, you focus on the downside, but how much of it is like we're modeling it the next five years and then we're tracking to that model or the only thing i tell you about a model is produced in an investment committee is it will never be exactly what happens um but uh i'd say if you get the we're trying to get the trends right is really what it is is in investing it's can you get the trend right and and i would say most of our investing is uh we're trying to get the price right for value.

1:11:17And therefore, often we're buying at a discount to what we think is the value of something. And therefore, that's an important thing to note. How do you think about the geopolitical risk? We invest in backbone infrastructure, largely. And even our private equity businesses are backbone infrastructure type businesses. Therefore, what's important for us is to go to good countries with good people that you can operate with the standards we operate with, and that those countries respect rule of law and will over time be good places to invest. We don't really sell over borders. So in the United States, where we are, we own data centers and telecom towers and real estate and industrial facilities and all of the things that we own in the U.S.

1:12:14and we make batteries and we etc. All of those are consumed by individuals or companies in the United States. They're not shipped. We make power. It's used within state. So politics don't really matter to us. You know they do in the margin But on balance, as long as you invest in a good country, you're going to be fine. And by good, I'm assuming you mean stable rule of law. How do you think you're good? Good means for us it has to be large enough to be able to invest. We can't have small countries just not because they're not good. They're not a good place to invest. It's just not meaningful to us.

1:12:56When you have a trillion dollars things, the benefit or the drawback is that you can't go to a little country. Like we can't invest$100 million. It's not relevant to us. So we need large places. We'd like them to have – we need to operate with the standards that we operate globally with. We need to be, we'd like to have large GDP. We'd like to have it growing. And we'd like to have a currency that's relatively, it doesn't have to grow better than everyone else. It just has to stay consistent. If it's highly volatile, not good. If it goes down over the long periods of time, bad. So we'd rather pick countries with those factors.

1:13:53But it all comes down to price. Like some have all that and then you invest when you can. But for us, we have to have people on the ground. So we pick those countries very methodically. We put people on the ground. We invest from time to time, new investments, when we find the opportunities. But we don't randomly go to countries. Like this is not a random business. This is hard work. Therefore, we have to be in country, be able to action an opportunity when it comes. And therefore, if we're not in a country and somebody calls us with an opportunity, we just say, sorry, we're not set up to do that.

1:14:32No can do. It seems like part of your secret sauce is not only doing that in advance, but also you seem to prove the model before you take outside investors into it. You know, like I would say we have a large amount of capital ourself. We've always invested ourself. We want to make mistakes with our own money first, not with others. Our reputation with our clients is the only thing we have. And that's really important to us. And we try to incrementally grow to prices. For example, we have a massive platform in the United States. So we started insurance in the United States. now we're going to the uk to do the same thing we did in the united states and we just got licensed to do that but it um we now have all the experience we have from the united states we probably couldn't have started there right because we just didn't have the same presence there as we had here we always end these interviews with this same question which is what What is success for you?

1:15:40Brookfield is one of the great investment management groups in the world today. And 20 years from today, success is that it is bigger, broader, more relevant to clients and continues to do exactly what it does today for everybody and earn reasonable returns. with downside risk protected. And if we can do that, we'll have felt success of all of this.

1:16:22Thanks for listening and learning with us. The Farnham Street blog is where you can learn more about my new book, Clear Thinking, turning ordinary moments into extraordinary results. It's a transformative guide that hands you the tools to master your fate, sharpen your decision-making, and set yourself up for unparalleled success. Learn more at fs.blog.com. Until next time.