Black Tie: Rules, Rituals, and Relevance with Aleks Cvetkovic

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0:38It's all about silhouette. It's about the kind of lines of the body that it kind of paints on you. If you're into clothes, the thing that you are most interested in when a new Bond film comes out is what is his interpretation of Black Tie going to be? Yeah. In Casino Royale, his dinner suit was not Tom Ford. It was Brioni. The entire audience went... Whether it's cortisone or dopamine, whatever it is that got set off, that set it off for the entire audience. And this is what Great Clothes can do, and the tuxuit is right at the top of that. I have edited a copy of yours, which was pretty firm about not wearing black tie at weddings.

1:16What did you wear to your wedding?

1:21Hello and welcome back to a brand new season of The Luxury Dispatch. The podcast that reveals the refined and the rare. People, items and stories that make up the luxury industry. I'm Tom Chamberlain and today we shall be stepping up the formality and dig deep into black tie. Few garments carry quite the same sense of occasion as the dinner suit. Black tie represents one of the clearest expressions of formal elegance and yet, like all traditions, it invites questions. Where did it come from? How strictly should it be followed? Where is there room for personality and why does it continue to endure?

1:53To guide us through that world, I'm joined by Alex Svekovich, brand strategist, writer, and one of the sharpest observers of modern style and tailoring. Alex, welcome. What a treat to be here. Isn't it fun? Isn't it glorious? Yeah. Look at us. With our dicky bows on. Yeah, I do. You and I, um, you are an alumnus of the rake, and, uh, therefore you and I have spent just hours, hours talking about the correct width of a bow tie and... Indeed. Various types of Baratheia. Pleats, trouser hems. Absolutely. I mean, we've really gone over it all. So who better to have this particular conversation about a subject that everybody knows about, but perhaps doesn't necessarily understand, or wants to really get to know it in greater detail.

2:39So, where do we go from here? Well, do we... Perhaps we start with the origin story. Shall we sort of unpick the mythology a little bit? We could talk a little bit about the Great Male Renunciation. The end of the 18th century, great fun, the Great Male Renunciation, love that. Where basically, everybody turned from wearing breeks and stockings and highly embellished clothes to something more austere and less embellished. Right? So this is the era of the French Revolution, where if you were highly colored and silken and embellished, you got your head chopped off. Indeed. And if you were in Britain, you just were, you know, you just were a fop and they didn't like that.

3:21And then along comes the Victorian era, because everything was cold and dusty and horrible. And so everyone turned to darker fabrics. But there was one great consistency that came along from all that was... Always in some kind of tailcoat. Sure. Morning dress for riding. Frock coat, which frankly they should bring back. But that's a whole other topic. and what we know now today is white tie so the evening dress yes with tailcoat so let's go with that in mind that was how everybody was dressed it was very formal yeah and men were always in some kind of tails yes the key thing right exactly pretty restrictive so something happened in the mid 19th century where this weird thing came along called the lounge suit indeed let's go into that positively racy at the time yeah casually very casual very informal the sort of the idea of uh cutting the tails off the bottom of a jacket was in its time quite initially quite controversial yeah which is a bizarre thought for today um but as society was kind of loosening up a little bit and men were becoming a little more active this idea of the lounge suit or the town suit sort of develops yeah uh and you know certain uh certain sensible individuals go it's quite nice actually not to have to wear tails all day every day so it catches on and i think at this point we have to introduce uh a regular feature on your podcast which is the monarchy uh god bless them god bless them uh the prince of wales at the time edward the seventh to be...

5:01Dirty Bertie. Indeed. My favourite constitutional motto. In 1865, he decides he's fed up of having to wear white tie and tails every evening, every dinner. So he goes to his tailor, Henry Poole, the oldest tailor on Savile Row, established in 1806. Still around today. Still around today. Glorious place. He goes to his tailor and he says, I want you to make me something for informal. family-only dinners at Sandringham in the country, which in sort of the social context of the time is as casual as it can possibly get. And they say, okay, we'll come up with something. And they cut him, the ledgers tell us, a celestial blue short evening coat, which is basically a lounge suit with no tails in this wonderful midnight blue colour.

5:52For memory, I think it was some kind of silk. I do like celestial blue. That is better. We should bring it back. Yeah, why isn't everyone using Celestial Blue on their sort of e-commerce websites? Yeah, exactly. I'd like a Celestial Blue suit, please. So this short jacket appears, which he wears strictly when he's not on show, in a social context, and he loves it. And we then have to skip forward about 20, 25 years to 1886, when the Prince of Wales takes a trip to New York and ends up mooching about Tuxedo Park, north of Manhattan. Yeah. Which is, to give context, it's what people would refer to as a sort of gated community today.

6:37It's where very large houses, very rich people. Tuxedo, as a word, comes from the Algonquin that means Tuxedo, which means place of the bear. Ah, love that. It's a good top knowledge. Editor of the Rake. Yes, so he's mooching around Tuxedo Park, and he meets a chap called James Brown Potter. And more importantly for this story, he meets James Brown Potter's apparently very beautiful wife, Cora. Dear Cora. Dear Cora, and is quite smitten. Cora Urquhart. Very good. So, yeah, the prince is smitten, and he therefore invites Brown Potter and Cora to an informal dinner at Sandringham. Now, the funny thing is that they went, because the thing is, If he at the time were to invite you to something like that, the men should...

7:27I mean, maybe because he was American, he didn't quite know that, you know, Edward was likely to try and have sex with your wife. So the fact that they went, I think shows great balls. Or perhaps you can't turn down invitations from, you know, Edward VII. Yeah, quite. Bragging rights. Yeah, sure. Um, so they go to this dinner, but Brown Potter says, I have no idea what to wear. He speaks to Henry Poole and they say, ah, Mr. Brown Potter. As it happens. As it happens, we'll cut you a short celestial blue silk evening coat. He wears it to dinner. He loves it. The prince is very flattered. They have a lovely time.

8:05When he goes back to New York, he starts rocking this short celestial blue silk evening coat. And I believe he wears it to the tuxedo park club which is the sort of society club in this gated community enclave and the the story which may or may not be apocryphal but the sort of legend is that it catches on as the club's sort of informal uniform and everyone starts wearing this short evening jacket yeah it may also be the case that you know royals in at this point in history are huge trendsetters yes and it had already caught on among higher society. Yeah. But it's a lovely story. And that, of course, is where our dear American cousins now refer to the dinner suit as the tuxedo.

8:50It gets its name from that locality. Yes. But, you know, there's so many things just in that origin story that I find really, really enjoyable that we can, I guess, come on to. But the fact that it's midnight blue, it's not black. Whereas we almost always assume that it's black. I think because people call it black tie, they just assume that it is all black. Which, of course, refers to the bow tie. Correct. Which should really be black. That's one of the things that I'm a bit of a stickler for. I agree, me too. I'm not a huge fan of coloured bow ties. I think you can do it, but I wouldn't advise it personally.

9:26Yeah. And the other thing here that is really interesting is the way that this short evening jacket, um i don't know if there's any record of what uh the lapels were but it was almost certainly cut as a reference to a smoking jacket like what you're wearing yes uh this evening yes so there's it's sort of that jacket is again responsible for this really lovely kind of interplay between a smoking jacket and a dinner jacket yeah which we can talk about in a bit i would have guessed it's a shawl lapel thing and i tell you why it's because the introduction of peak lapels and single breasted jackets can't have been something that edward just was like yeah let's do that i think he would have gone with something like as you say that was akin to the robe de chambre which was the precursor to the uh smoking jacket which had shawl lapels absolutely you know a kind of small rope to tie around you and there's this this is like another sort of really interesting thing in the kind of codification of of black tie i get well there's two there's two thoughts but my first quick thought is uh i absolutely agree it couldn't have been a peak lapel because they don't really catch on till sort of the turn of the the turn of the 20th century and even then they're initially seen as quite flash yeah uh which a monarch would never be no and uh or a royal yeah but also things obviously have relaxed today and and i would argue that the style of lapel on your dinner suit is not something you need to be militant about.

10:54But back then, one would never wear a notch lapel for an evening garment because it was an informal lapel that one wore during the day. Yeah, correct. And so he would have eschewed the notch lapel in exchange for a fall. And couldn't have chosen a peak. Therefore, we deduce Robe de Chambre. Look at us. Yeah, indeed. Detectives. Sartorial Sherlock. One of the great mysteries of life is now solved. Yes, indeed. Yeah. Everyone's been pondering. Yes, well done us. Before we go into anything really black-tied, because we're going to be talking a lot about lapels, a subject that you and I have spoken about...

11:25Years and years. For years. Column inches on lapels. There are three major types of lapel. Shawl, which is what I'm wearing. Peak, which is what you're wearing. And then notch, which is the traditional or step lapel. Yes. I think there might be an Americanism, I can't be sure. but the notch lapel is what you would traditionally see on most jackets, specialty suits. Yeah. I would predict that for most guys listening to this, you know, 70 % of the jackets in your wardrobe are going to have a notch lapel on them. It's the conventional lapel. Exactly. So let's go through, talk about codification, I love that.

12:08What are the component parts of a traditional dinner suit? Let's start with the jacket. Mm-hmm. So we have to have contrast lapel. Yeah. Which is usually either satin or... Silk grosgrain. Silk grosgrain. Yes. The key is that really it should match whatever your bow tie is. Yes. Yes. So there should be that sort of consistency in the sort of the kind of middle third of your body. And then that sort of softer color either way. so not as bright, especially with the light hits it, will Baratheer for the outside, for the main body of the suit. Yes, and the logic behind the midnight blue celestial blue is actually in low light, it reads as more black than black.

12:53That is very true. And I actually think just from a style point of view, midnight blue is really, really nice. Yeah. I mean, I know I'm sitting across someone wearing black, so I don't want to sort of... This is midnight blue. Is it? To confound you, this is midnight blue mohair, yeah. So it does read as more black than black. That was an evidential test. That is an evidential test. And that's a sexton. This is also the first midnight blue dinner suit I've ever owned, historically. And Edward, of course, much missed. Much missed, indeed. This is, I think, one of the first suits that the great man was not able to cut me because he passed away.

13:28But the new headcutter in there, Joe, who's brilliant, cut this for me for my wedding. Very nice. So this is your wedding suit. This is my wedding suit. We're going to get on with a wedding in black tie. Well, it's one half of my wedding suit because I also went overboard and had a smoking jacket, which I changed into. Very good. I did morning suit and then lounge suit. Yeah, there we go. I think more men should feel that they should be allowed to change during their wedding. If you make more changes than your wife, I think you've done very, very well. Yeah, indeed. Very good thing. Okay, so we sorted the jacket.

13:56In theory, few embellishments. Yes. You don't want any sort of half belts at the back like I do with my lounge suits. You don't want any, I mean, buttons wise. you can, in theory, just have a single button. Yes. But I know that you've gone with four, and I actually do think that's smarter. I do like that. Yeah. This has got a turn back cuff and no buttons whatsoever. Which is very smoking jackity. Very nice. Very smoking jackity. The buttons, if you're going to wear them, should be covered in the same fabric. Which is actually an important distinction between lounge suits and black tie, or dinner suits is that covered buttons is a must for dinner suits.

14:38Yes. And to your point about not having any kind of pleats or half belts or embellishments on it, because it's not a sporty garment. It's a dress garment. Traditionally, black tie is semi-formal and white tie is full dress. No flaps on your pockets. That's the other thing. Yes. Or if you have flaps, tuck them in. Now, yes, but also traditionally no vents. Indeed. Now, vents are, for those who are listening or watching, they are those sort of slits side of a jacket. And I should say this now, because this is a particular rule. Do not get single sort of center vents. I don't like them. If you've got that, I don't like it.

15:21Because that is for riding. If you're not riding a horse, then you shouldn't be having it. And it makes your bottom look bigger than it actually is. So take it from me, it's not flattering. Trousers. Yes. You want them high waisted, ideally double pleated. You want braces. Actually, generally in trousers, you need braces. No turn ups. No. That is, so despite the fact that I've turned back cuffs, because I'm wearing a smoking jacket, I would not recommend them really for your traditional jacket. Certainly not on trousers. But then there is that interesting satin band that goes right up the side of the leg.

15:56Yes. So braiding is traditional. again, this comes from in the history that I always find quite interesting, particularly of British tailoring, that it kind of always somehow ends up coming back to military uniform. So the braid on a military dress uniform was echoed in the dinner suit trouser. So traditionally, for black tie, you have one braid. For white tie, you have a pair of braids. And that's the distinction. Correct. And then if you would like to, and you may or may not be able to see, you can have, you can pick up the same grosgrain that's on your lapels and your buttons or the same silk on your trouser waistband.

16:36Talking of waistbands, I'm loving how nerdy this is. This is just super... It's almost not nerdy enough. Cummerbunds is another thing that I think a lot of guys don't quite know what it is, what it's for, how to wear it. So a cummerbund is obviously that sort of sash of pleated silk that you can wear around your waist you've got to wear it around your waistline to cover a high-waisted trouser there's no point wearing it down on your hips if you've got a low-cut trouser it doesn't look right no you only wear them with a single-breasted dinner jacket yeah which is why we are both in double-breasted and we don't have them on correct and you must always wear them and this is the thing that i i used to find guys would always ask me so i hope this is helpful you always wear them with the pleats up.

17:20Because traditionally you would tuck your ticket stubs into the pleats when you went off to the opera or the operetta or something of that nature. So pleats always up but only wear it with a single breasted jacket. And I would suggest to anybody who is a member of an army regiment, a club or anything, if you've got a coloured version with colours on it, wear it. Yes. Really great. Yes. The best I've ever seen is an old Indian regiment called Skinner's Horse. And the light dragoons today in the British Army are pair, they're sort of sister regiments, really. And they're sort of friendly, you know, like how cities can be twinned, you know what I mean?

18:04Yeah. So it's sort of a twinned regiment. And they are allowed to wear it. And I've seen them wear it and it looks incredibly smart, but it's kind of gold, blue. I mean, it's fabulous looking. Amazing, yeah. It really stands out. But again, that's kind of interesting, isn't it? Because while we would say you never change the color of your bow tie, actually something down here that kind of breaks the top half and bottom half is kind of interesting. It looks terrific. And I think those sort of subtle differences are kind of key. Because if you did that up here and wore a Skinner's horse bow tie, I would be like, no, don't do that.

18:37100%. And in fact, I think when people sort of ask me about sort of my style, I think it's... So long as I'm getting as close as humanly possible to military attire, but a civilian version of it, without kind of dipping into stolen valor or anything like that, that's when I'm in my happy place. And now a word from our sponsors. Brig Umbrellas have been a part of the Swain family since the 9th of February, 1943. Thomas Brig and Sons were facing the uncomfortable reality that their Paris flagship was under occupation by some rather bad jack-booted eggs. The wartime amalgamation formed what became Swain Aidan E.

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22:31Which brings us to hats. Herbert Johnson, the hatting arm of Swain, opened on New Bond Street in 1889 after a gust of wind reportedly dislodged the future Edward VII's hat. A young Johnson restored it with such deafness that the prince encouraged him to open a shop. To give you a sense of how these brands have witnessed history, a Herbert Johnson top hat was recovered from the wreckage of the Titanic. Herbert Johnson was something of a Jeeves character and advised customers on when, where and how to wear his hats. Military headdress became part of the business at the turn of the 20th century and this is still a core part of their work on Bond Street.

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23:43Still British, but increasingly international. The brand describes this year's campaign as a quiet authority. I rather like that, because true authority is about composure, not attention-seeking. And composure, particularly in Britain, has always been where our power calmly lies. Why do you think Black Tie resonates as a sort of go-to dress code? I think we all like feeling a little bit special don't we and it's sort of it is as special as it gets today really and you know I I would it would a part of me thinks it'd be great fun if we're all still wearing white tie and tails but we we don't black tie is the thing yeah that I there's something really interesting isn't there and again in this idea that black tie used to be sort of um it was considered the casual option or the option that you only wore with friends or the option that you only war in formal dinners for a long long time and yet today it has morphed to a place where it is the pinnacle of yeah 100 formality some people don't realize that there is a white tie yeah yeah you know yeah i love that um i'm not going to get the anecdote quite right but there's a tremendous i always hone in on this is a really lovely sort of well-observed moment and little bit of writing there's a moment in downton abbey where uh you know hugh bonofill lord grantham comes down to dinner at home with the family for the first time at some point in the 1920s in a dinner suit not in his white tie and tails that he starts the the whole program in and everyone is absolutely shocked and appalled and uh maggie smith the dowager countess says something like are we going to a barbecue or something that's not quite the right quote but it but it captures that attitude of, oh my goodness, this is new and disruptive and almost inappropriate.

25:33So I love the fact that that's where it started. And then today it is sort of so prim and proper, but actually, you know, so many men don't get the opportunity to wear it so often. It's now this kind of weird arcane thing with all these rules and regulations that we don't quite all understand necessarily. Of course, the great figure is James Bond. And all posters for every James Bond film is him in black tie. Yeah. If you're into clothes, the thing that you are most interested in when a new Bond film comes out is what, or a new Bond is announced, is what is his interpretation of a black tie going to be?

26:15Yeah. How is he going to show up and play with it? and actually to the franchise's absolute credit, from a technical nerdy, I'm giving you Mark's perspective, they always get the codes and the sort of do's and don'ts spot on, but they always kind of leave room for a little bit of personal expression. What criticism from me? Oh, who's... You know, the coolest scene in all of film is when Sean Connery, that first time he says Bond, James Bond, when he's at the table playing Chemin de Fer. It's a tiny bow tie. I think the lapel's too thin. I think the turn-back cuffs are too thin. But that's entirely subjective.

26:58Because at the end of the day, what's the result? He looks amazing. At the same time, I didn't really like Roger Moore's see-through shirt that he wore for Octopussy. No. It didn't look great. There's something interesting in there, because those are expressions within the kind of spectrum of black tie that are relatively rooted in a fashion moment. So you've got Connery's sort of debuting Bond in the, I'm going to say mid-60s, roughly, when, you know, the mod suit is a thing and everything is very nipped in, lapels are super slim. It's all about slim lines and trim cuts, right? So the black tie reflects that, but it doesn't necessarily therefore age that well.

27:38Yes. You've got... But at the same time, throw things at you. saying, having an opinion. The makers of the suits back then were not fashion designers, they were tailors. Cyril Castle, Dougie Hayward, who made Roger Moore's and Connery's suits, you know, they were traditional tailors. Yes, but they still responded to changes in silhouette, right? So if you think about Hardy Amies is this huge proponent in the 60s of slimming everything down. Edward, this suit is interesting because it's based on a style of suit that Edward Sexton used to call semi-drape, which basically means room in the chest, but without making it too huge.

28:19And that's a style that he learned to cut in the 50s at Kilgau, French, and Stanbury, which is a tailor that's no longer there on Savile Row. Uh, so he learned to make everything big and voluminous and kind of drapey in the 50s, and then the 60s come in, and everything just goes... razor sharp and slim, and Sean Connery. And there... So there are, I think, some kind of nuances in how Black Tie sort of evolves through the decades in terms of silhouette. Yes. But it's interesting to me that the two that you've picked out as not ageing well are kind of rooted more in the fashion of the moment. Yeah.