The Untold Story of Davidoff London | Cigars, Craft & Legacy

0:00And by the way, presumably these are some of the rarest cigars in the world. Yes. Oh, absolutely. The best part of this little thing called the cigar is it brings people together. I was a pyromaniac by genetics. And I remember visiting the shop, getting extremely excited about all the accessories. In the early 80s, Cuba started having problems. They had something called the blue mold. Yes. We're moving out of Cuba. We're not going to make cigars there anymore. The quality is no good, and I don't want the name of Davidoff to be ruined. Is that all 50? It is. It should be.

0:41Hello and welcome to The Luxury Dispatch, the podcast that reveals the refined and the rare people, items and stories that make up the luxury industry. I'm Tom Chamberlain, and today we shall be revisiting the world of cigars, but through a side door, bringing you a story of revolution, immigration, assimilation, and the creation of an institution. It is the story of Edward and Eddie Sahakian of Davidoff of London. This episode will explore how this shop, nay, pilgrimage site for the world's cigar aficionados like Arnold Schwarzenegger, came to be and spent time picking the brains of two of the most knowledgeable minds on this mystical topic, specifically on non-Cuban, otherwise known as America-friendly cigars.

1:18Edward, Eddie, welcome. Thank you very much, Tom. I knew at some point when we were doing this podcast, this was a conversation we were going to have to have. I've known you 15 years. And in that time, we've spoken a lot. And I know your story, but it's never been anything other than astounding. And I think that anybody who hasn't heard it really should. And this is, I guess, an opportunity to revisit that. And so the Sir Harkins and Cigars is not the beginning of the story because it goes back to, I mean, even goes back to Armenia, doesn't it? But ultimately, let's just introduce you to starting with you, Edward, and let's talk about how it was that we ended up with Davidoff of London.

2:08Obviously, I know this can go on for a long time, but I think that it is a story definitely worth retelling. Well, sometimes I wonder myself how it all came about. i have to go back to the late 70s the late 70s i was a regular visitor to london by then i was living in iran obviously eddie was a young little boy his sister caroline the whole family used to live in iran and i stood due to business and pleasure as well to visit europe but in particular London I always loved London it's a beautiful place my wife studied in London as well so she had a very soft spot about living in London and we often talked about oh she would say oh I wish we were living in London I missed the rain in London I said well it's not raining here in Tehran and on one of those occasions well on many of the occasions I used to travel here I have some fond memories of going to at that time I was smoking a lot of pipe and some cigars as well So I used to visit my first stop was always the Dunhill shop in German Street.

3:29Yes, which was opposite Fort and Mason. Yeah, okay. That was the building and it was bombed during the war and the story was and this story was told to me by Richard Dunhill himself. In the middle of the night, two or three in the morning, the manager of the shop picks up the phone and calls the prime minister's office, wakes up the secretary, and he says, can you please inform the prime minister, which was Winston Churchill at the time, inform the prime minister that a bomb has fallen onto our building. Part of it has been destroyed, but his cigars are safe.

4:13But I used to visit that shop there. It was beautiful. I used to buy my pipes from Dunhill. I still have a few pipes from Dunhill, but also cigars. I used to buy cigars there, some beautiful cigars. They used to import them. There's large wooden containers, 10 or 15 ,000 cigars at a time. And then there were several other shops I would go and visit. There was Robert Lewis down the road on St. James Street. Is that what became J.J. Fox? It became the J.J. Fox, exactly. And there was a shop on German Street not too far from the famous Tramps. Yeah. It was almost next to it. It was the Sheraton shop.

5:01the Sheraton there were pipe makers there were the to my opinion there were the number two pipe makers next to Dunhill at the time so it was a lovely area I used to go there buy my pipes and cigars and tobaccos and just spend a lot of time there and then fast forward to 1979 or end of 78 there were troubles in Iran starting their brew there were riots in the streets before just to just to just sense check on the the situation in iran before the revolution was cigar smoking something that people did in iran at the time not really no were there shops where there was there were no shops whatsoever selling cigars and not even pipes nor pipe tobacco as so you coming to london and doing all that uh cigar yes pipe shopping was also practical it It wasn't just because you love London, but also you did need to do that for your supply.

6:02Well, I have to admit it wasn't only London. There was Geneva. Fine, we'll take it. There was Geneva. I used to go to the Davidoff shop there to buy cigars, but also definitely in London also. Geneva, you always pass through it. You don't really want to spend too much time there. There isn't much to do in Geneva, but in London it was lovely. It was very nice. Anyone who listens to this show from Geneva, he's not wrong, but we do love you. anyway no we do love them we love them until eight o 'clock eight o 'clock the lights switch off and the whole city goes that quiet it's still the case but what i what i will say about switzerland is that it is very cigar friendly yes in a way that it's always been yeah absolutely right yes so sorry end of the 70s iran end of the 70s there were problems riots happening in the capital in Tehran to a point where schools started closing down and the situation was getting worse to a point where young Eddie he was going I think you were the first grade kindergarten or first grade I'm not sure like that his schools closed down and I thought it will be a wise thing to do to bring them over in London so they could spend a few months in london and improve their english in the meantime to wait and see how things are developing in iran they came to london i went back to tehran and november december 78 the situation started to get better there was a change of government the shah had appointed a new general it was called general as hurry i think and when he took over became prime minister he installed a few tanks in the streets and soldiers guns and things went quiet for a while so i thought well that's it then everybody had their fun everything is back to normal again and it was that christmas 28th of december 1978 i remember so well i picked up my suitcase coming to london to spend new year and to spend christmas together and then we were all going to go back and it's that famous story you've heard when i came with in my suitcase there was 20 kilos of iranian rice which is very good for a friend of ours who lived here and in my hand briefcase there were six kilos of caviar this last minute thing i just picked up from the airport and i said i will enjoy it with friends there and of course my tuxedo that's all it was that's what you left around with yeah So we came here thinking we'll be going back in a couple of weeks' time.

9:07Whilst we were here, there was suddenly a change of situation. More riots happening in the streets. And there was on the, I think it was on the 5th or 6th of January, because we stayed behind. We were going to go back after New Year. and we decided to stay a few days longer to celebrate the Armenian Christmas, which is on the 6th of January, and then we'll go back. On around the 5th or 6th of January, I heard the news. We had a phone call middle of the night. They said, you won't believe what's happened. There was big riots in the streets. They set fire to all the cinemas, nightclubs. and to your breweries as well beat up the manager at the moment it won't be safe for you to come back stay there until we let you know what's happening that was the beginning of my journey I was still worried considered probably it will come down we'll still go back another week later one morning watching the news they were showing the Shah getting onto the plane and leaving the country.

10:31When I saw that as well, I realized things will not change. It will just get worse. It won't go back to the old regime. And I was thinking what to do, what would be the next step, and realized the first and most important thing I need to do is go and sort out my immigration situation. I was here on a three-month visitor's visa, so probably I need to extend that. So what do you do? You go and see a solicitor. And I asked my bank manager then, now friends, but then he was just a bank manager. And I said, I need to see a solicitor. Can you recommend somebody? He said, yes, I'll recommend a person I know.

11:21He gave me the address, made an appointment. I went and visited him. we sat down and he said oh mr sarkhan what's your problem i said well i don't have a problem as such but my problem is that i'll be stuck here for a few more months and i i will need to renew my visitors visa he said fine well it's not a problem it's very easy we'll do an application i will do this and that and that and we had a nice long chat like we're having a chat sort of talking from the past and my situation. Before we go further into that story, can I tell you, do you remember any of this? I don't remember that element of it.

12:04I do remember leaving school. I remember arriving in the UK in London. We did have an apartment here, so it was not entirely foreign to me. And it was great fun. And I remember starting at an American school, which was, we were in St. John's Wood at the time, an American school. So I remember those elements as it related to home life. Got it. None of this, of course. No, of course. Yeah, yeah, of course. So forgive me. I felt embarrassed when he said there's nothing to pay, no charge. And I said, well, at least allow me to invite you for a spot of lunch at a very nice restaurant, which I used to go there frequently, even at that time, called Wiltons.

12:43Yes. It's the same Wiltons as it is on German Street now, But in those days, it was on Berry Street, just on the side street. Got it. With the original fixtures and fittings. And the owner, Mrs. Marks, used to sit there by the door. Never a smile on her face. I never saw her smiling at anybody. And we had a nice lunch. We finished with a nice bottle of claret. And he said, have you thought what you will be wanting to do if you're not able to go back to your country ever again. That's when I realized perhaps we drank too much wine and too much brandy. So I was taken back. I said, of course I'm going back.

13:31I've left everything behind as it is. It's just a short holiday, a few weeks. I'll be going back maybe in a few weeks' time, if not a couple of months' time. But I won't be going back. No, I haven't thought anything else than that. He said, yes, I realized. but he could see the future much better than i could okay and uh he said are there any hobbies is there anything you enjoy doing so i love traveling i love photography uh and then as i'm touching the cigars like the cigars were talking to me and for a short moment And I said, William, you know what I would really like if I had ever had to start all over again?

14:17It would be to have a small cigar shop like the cigar shop in Geneva, Davidoff. I used to go there regularly by then where I would keep my cigars on one side, a few accessories, lighters, cutters. And that would be lovely. There would be no problems, no worries. and if i don't sell them i will smoke them as i'm telling him this brief story my dear friend william he takes out his pen and he starts writing he said did you say what was the name davidoff is that one f or two f's i said no it's two f's he said i'll write a letter to them see if they want to have a shop in london they don't have a shop in london do they said no they don't He said, I'll write a letter and inquire.

15:11I said, William, I've never been a shopkeeper. I don't have a clue what to do. And I'm not opening a shop. I don't even know where to start. This was just a boy talking about his dreams. Forget it. He said, no, no, no, no, no. I'll write a letter. I'm not going to charge you. once he said I'm not going to charge I said well but nothing to lose and he wrote a letter a week ten days later we got a reply or he had a reply and it was from the president of the company saying that he's passing through London and he'll be happy to meet us 8 o 'clock in the morning in the lobby of the Intercontinental Hotel for half an hour and William said will you be available I said of course I've got nothing else to do eight o 'clock in the morning we were sitting on a bench opposite the elevators in the Intercontinental Hotel the doors of the elevator opened and two gentlemen stepped out of it and William looked at them and then looked at me said it must be them I said why do you know them have you seen their photographs he said no no but it's exactly eight o 'clock and they are swiss it must be he was absolutely spot on walked out it was dr schneider the president of the company accompanied by raymond his assistant raymond scherer and we stood up shook hands sat down in my mind I had prepared all sort of replies statics about stories as a business transaction but he started chatting everything apart from business it was a very interesting meeting we chatted and talked about the whole world the weather, the families, everything.

17:14And then at one point he looked at his watch. He said, oh, God, it's 10.30 in the morning, and I had a meeting in the city at 10 o 'clock. I have to go, but you will hear from us. So we stood up, we shook hands, and off he went. Another week passed, and we had a letter from them, saying if we're still interested in pursuing opening a shop, he will be glad to welcome us in Basel, their head offices. We had a nice meeting with my friend William, of course, and we had a long chat. And Dr. Schneider had put a few conditions. He said there are seven conditions. If you agree with that, we will give you the agency.

18:05And I said, what are the conditions? and said we have to approve the location we have to prove the staff you have to come for training there you have to abide by our high standards things like that so he said do you agree with all that edward i said no dr schneider couldn't believe me what do you mean no i said no these are my conditions you know i don't have a clue about location i don't have a clue about quality i don't have a clue about training staff i don't have much clue myself about running a shop so i will need all these to learn from you so i insist that we do have these conditions and these are my conditions did you know much about cigars at that point i mean you'd smoke them i loved i used to love cigars i used to smoke cigar by then i was smoking again even then my favorite cigar was the davidoff number two i used to travel through geneva i used to always stop there by a few boxes of cigars um okay so paperwork was done paperwork done signed sealed and i came back to find the location on 29th of may 1980 the shop was ready finished and of course we had zeno davidoff came over that was the first time he was seeing the shop yeah he had not seen it he knew about it but he had not seen it he came over with his wife dr schneider with his wife raymond we had a lovely opening reception in the deutschester hotel at 500 guests then and on the opening of that night there were two events being celebrated one the opening of the new davidoff shop in london and also the launch of the davidoff don perignon cigars yes and we had baron philip de rothschild was there one of the guests and at one point he was invited to go onto the stage with zeno they stood there zeno davidoff he took out the dom perignon cigar he cut it and he started lighting in his own style.

20:23And Baron Philip de Rothschild, he took the bottle of the Dom Perignon, the Somalia, he cut it with the sword. Great. He filled the glass, and then they exchanged. He gave him, he gave Zeno a glass of the Dom Perignon champagne, and Zeno gave Dom Perignon Davidoff cigar. That was the beginning and the celebration. How fabulously classy. It was a lovely, lovely event. Because that was one of the things that Davidoff did was there was like a De Chem wasn't there and there was a lot of cigars that had the same name as wines. Yes, there was Chateau Hicème, Chateau Margot, Chateau Prion. Chateau Hicème at one point they had to stop it because the new owners didn't want to continue.

21:07Didn't want tobacco. But the rest they did. Could I ask, Eddie, you might want to answer this, who was Zeno Davidoff? So Zeno Davidoff was, you know, historically was born 1911 and his family, they were from Ukraine. They had moved to Zurich early on and Zeno's father had set up a cigarette shop in Zurich. And Zeno fell in love with the leaf, all things tobacco. So much so that in the 1930s, he took a tour around South America and the Caribbean to find out how the leaf is cultivated. How are these wonderful cigars produced? Came back absolutely in love and enthralled by cigars, distinct from cigarettes.

21:54And it was his impetus and vision and thought that transformed what was really not a humble, but a modest cigarette shop into a cigar shop that specialized in handmade cigars. And then, of course, by this point, they opened in Geneva. And Zeno, very wisely, towards the early parts of World War II, had secured the entire stock of Cuban cigars in Europe, anticipating big problems. So when World War II ended, Zeno became the source of Cuban cigars in Europe. And anyone who loves cigars, well, you know, nothing has changed. Only the finest of the fine enjoy great cigars. So, of course, they went and found Zeno, and he became a really successful...

22:42He was rewarded for his wisdom by the Cubans by naming a cigar after him. And they told Zeno they would like to name a cigar after you. I hope you will agree. And this is a story he told me. He said, yes, I will agree, providing that you maintain certain qualities and standards that I would inspect. I would come at least once a year, check the stock that you're making, and I will smoke the cigar regularly and make sure that it is of fine quality. Very much. Which he did for many years until the famous divorce came along. Yes, so should we talk about that? Because it's a really interesting aspect of the history of the story of Cuban versus non-Cuban as well as also your story too because you by the time of the divorce as you put it you've been open a decade very well established in london it was it was a thriving business i mean you it was your first job as well wasn't it it was yes yes very much uh so i i i was aware the the shop for me it was you can imagine as a young man a young boy even i was a pyromaniac by genetics yeah sure And I remember visiting the shop, getting extremely excited about all the accessories.

24:15So I still have matches. We used to sell sets of matches with World War II airplanes or different guards from the UK. I used to buy the matches and collect them. I used to pick up the odd lighter, very excited to own a lighter, even though I wasn't smoking. And, of course, pipes. I still have a few pipes, which I picked up from the basket. Great. Yeah. So I was aware of it. It was this wonderful curiosity shop. And I think any young child is fascinated by these sorts of knickknacks. And your father did also sit you down and give you a Davidoff number two. Yes. That was a punishment. It was a punishment.

24:53It was a punishment. Exactly. That was an extraordinary thing. Punishment because his mom had found a lighter, a zippo lighter in his pocket. And she became hysteric, Greta. you know what's happened eddie's smoking now in those days you were 16 years old do you have to stop him he can't smoke he's far too young i said how do you know he's smoking i found this light in his pocket i said well it's okay i'll have a word with him it's not that of the world he's already 16 years old you know and those days 16 was the the age yes of course when Eddie came back from school that night he said, Eddie, Saturday morning I want you to come to the shop with me I want to have a word with you man to man talk away from mum we went to the shop it was about 10 o 'clock in the morning far too early is what I remember 10.30 in the morning and I asked Eddie to sit on those famous chairs and he's waiting for me what am I going to say I didn't say anything I went inside the humidor room I picked up one of my favorite cigars the David of number two I came out in front of him I cut the cigar I lit it and he's watching all the time what I'm doing expecting I'm going to smoke it and it was nice and lit and ready to enjoy I said here you are ready this you have to smoke right now in front of me oh dad i don't smoke no no i know you smoke your mom has found the lighter in your pocket just to clarify and you can say now did you smoke no i was absolutely i was keenly into my rugby at the time very healthy i love zipper lighters it was very trendy than levi 501 the whole trousers and stuff yeah okay okay okay okay yeah but it was great i said you have to smoke it and let me tell you you shouldn't smoke it's not good for you but if you are going to smoke don't smoke anything rubbish don't smoke cigarettes don't smoke other things i didn't want to mention it by name but if you're going to smoke and you have to smoke then smoke the best and the best is a good handmade pure cigar here you are smoke this enjoy it and if you want if your friends tell you that you know you're smoking this that tell them you're smoking the best in the world so nobody could make fun of you why are you smoking this and you're not smoking whatever else what you would have smoked then i'm assuming is a cuban yes davidoff number two yes which is a sort of lancero shaped lovely thin it's slightly shorter but the same ring gauge same ring gauge yes um but yours would have been a cuban one they would have been made in el legito but something happened what was that the early 80s cuba started having problems they had something called the blue mold yes which affects the tobacco to a point where the only way to stop it, you have to burn all the leaves, all the crops, and then give it a year time, and then replant again.

28:31So they were having problems with shortages with the quality of the cigars, and these problems started affecting the Davidoff cigars to a point where Zeno Davidoff and Dr. Schneider, they wrote to then it was called Cuba tobacco it wasn't a bonus it was Cuba tobacco they started writing letters complaining that the cigars that were receiving they have problems physically they don't draw very well they don't taste well they don't look well we're having complaints from our customers and you have to put this right otherwise we won't let you use our name to put our name on no good cigars. They had several meetings with Cuba and Davidoff.

29:22They could not reach an arrangement and an agreement. The Cuban said nothing wrong with the cigars. Davidoff said no, no, they're definitely not good. Well, there was one batch of 150 ,000 cigars were famously set fire to by david off because these cigars are no good it'll cost us more to send them back and we're just going to set fire to them in a ditch and just that's exactly what they did i don't know if it was a ditch or where but they they were not set fire to one by one all at once yeah exactly that's a big old bonfire there's a big story about that as well and they said if you continue making these cigars we're not going to buy anymore.

30:10And that's exactly what happened. 1990, one day we had an official letter and a phone call from Dr. Schneider. I said, Edward, I just want to let you know we're moving out of Cuba. We're not going to make cigars there anymore. The quality is no good, and I don't want the name of Davidoff to be ruined. I said, well, does that mean there will be no more cigars? I said, no, no, you will have some cigars. Shortly I will let you know. I've looked to several places already and I'm going to take the final decision in which country we're going to make the finest cigars ever. I said, well, I shall wait and see, you know.

30:58And it's changed. Suddenly, the map of cigars changed from Davidoff being the number one cigar. It almost disappeared. The Cubans started to pick up brands like Monte Cristo, A. Chapman, Romeo, Juliet. They were all available. And people just switched from what they couldn't get to what they can get. which were the cigars. And also at the same time, there was a cigar being launched and promoted, the Cohiba. Yep. There was the Cohiba Corona Special, which is the same size as the Davidoff No. 2, the Cohiba Lancero, and then the Cohiba Panatella, which was the same as the Ambassador Priest. Was the Esplanido an early Cohiba?

31:53And the Sprenido came out a bit later. A bit later. The Sprenido is the Churchill size, and then they came out also with the 92, 93, or maybe a bit later. They came out with the Siglo range, Siglo 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and so on. And Davidoff, at the same time, they went to Dominican Republic into partnership with a gentleman called Hanke Kellner. The great Hanke. Yes, the great Hanke. exactly and how we know cuban cigars is that there are three leaves that you they use as part of the blend the velado the second the lijero they all play different roles when davidoff was then going off into the new world so nicaragua to micropavlo wherever they were going it was the american republic yeah beginning yes did that change the rules slightly in terms of blending because you know different leaves lots of different leaves are being used rather than the sort of slightly limiting three that they use for Cuban cigars.

32:57So did it change the rules when you started making the New World? Hank himself, he was a master chef of blending to start with. And he had his own ideas, he still does, about blending, fermenting, maturing tobacco. He did it in his own way. He didn't talk much about it. Like any good chef, they have their secrets. They don't like the sharing of the world. but the things that he did share and he had a very good assistant, Eladio, together, I mean, they started doing a variety of blends. With the Davidoff, at first they were trying to almost copy to make it as similar to what the Cuban blend was and then they realized that Cuban tobacco and their tobacco are two different things and Hanky took the blending in a different way with a mild Davidoff still stayed mild but with a different flavor with a different taste is that is that a case of terrar because I know that for example Puente who were in who are in Dominican Republic as well you know as a family kind of left with a bunch of sort of Cuban cigar Cuban tobacco seeds in their pockets unless it did it but yet the product is different or the the end product is different it's absolutely different i mean the terroir makes a very big difference what tobacco grows in cuba is different to what goes in dominican republic is different to what grows in nicaragua it's different to what grows in mexico yeah each one has its own flavor its own taste and its own character the tobaccos Ideally, if one could make cigars made with a blend of Dominican, Nicaragua, Cuban, and possibly Ecuador or Mexican wrapper or binder, they could make some beautiful, delicious cigars.

35:07Yeah. But it's the absence of Cuba, you think, that there's a prohibitive aspect of that? Well, it works the other way around as well. In Cuba, you know, the absence of all the other varieties which they are not allowed to, well, they don't use. Yes, well, quite. But as we're talking, as we are talking today, things could change. Just when you thought you were listening to the only podcast in the world without a NordVPN advertisement, think again. In fairness, there's a reason you hear about them everywhere. Many of you listening to the Luxury Dispatcher fairly well-travelled, regularly moving between London, New York, Geneva, Dubai, or indeed the less corporate, more recuperative destinations like Sabats, Aspen, and the south of France.

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37:00The link is in the podcast episode description box. one thing i've always had an issue with with getting my head around uh non-cuban cigars is the fact that it's this has got a wrapper from honduras a binder from dominican republic and a filler from uh you know from ecuador right you can find it from all sorts of different places into one cigar but how does anybody as a consumer kind of understand how to get their head around that in particular because it's kind of like drinking a wine that is from you know one is from the napa valley you know some bits from the napa valley some of it's from burgundy some of it's from um uh you know italy so it's a hard thing to get your head around what you're buying into It's more like a fine scotch whiskey, not single blend, but a blended whiskey or a blended fine brandy.

38:03You take a fine brandy, it's not from one source, it's from a variety of sources, a variety of years, blending it. and that's what makes it delicious blending tobacco it just gives you the opportunity to create more flavors and more tastes to it and it doesn't mean that everything that is blended is delicious no and it doesn't mean if something is not delicious for you is not delicious for me or vice versa there's a in the last 40 years 45 years that i've been in the business i've seen a lot of changes but what's happening in the last five six seven ten years it's incredible there's such a variety of flavors of cigars flavors blends strains tastes appearances plus all the beautiful bands and boxes that come with it as well.

39:05And there seems to be a lot of people who are able to kind of make their own cigars as well these days. And you can appeal to I presume a producer in the Dominican Republic, for example, who white labels cigars and you sort of slap your name and a label on it. Yes. The boom we saw in the 90s triggered by a cigar aficionado. It was very much American-led. And of course, the US couldn't access Cuban tobacco officially. Yes. So there was a massive growth in the domestic US market of brands that were based in Dominican, Nicaragua, Honduras, and other places. And what we saw was quite a lot of rubbish.

39:44You know, people who just wanted to put their name on a cigar and try and sell it. Yeah. And the Dominican, Nicaragua, Honduras, all these producing nations, there were not enough high quality producers or high quality tobacco to really feed it feed that so this the world was inundated with some pretty mediocre cigars okay the difference though now again sorry to interrupt you on that tom just to say this time around with the cigar boom we've seen over the last few years yeah there is that and dominican republic has matured nicaragua has matured, Honduras, Ecuador, even Cameroon wrappers. You know, there's so many origins now, Mexico, and they are making exceptional leaf and the quality of production is exceptional.

40:35So they are delivering cigars that stand shoulder to shoulder with some of the finest Cubans. And also crucially, there's the reliability aspect of it, because in Cuba, as much as we love the cigars the quality control is poor um or let's say average to poor um and you are likely to get a plug cigar in every box ish that's larger than 10 it is it is not an unlikely thing yes it's very likely sorry thank you very much thank you for being less diplomatic i appreciate that um and plugged ultimately they've been overfilled they they're you know they probably haven't been destemmed well enough too tightly wrapped or too loosely and they've got um often you have those sticks from the stems that yes the hard stems that you need to kind of remove and that loosens it up allows you to smoke it again which is you know fine if you do it and it all smokes fine after that but ultimately it sort of subtracts from the smoking experience that you have and And when it comes to non-Cuban cigars, I've never had a plugged one.

41:42Yes, I think that's fair. That's certainly been our experience. And, you know, there is a very obvious reason for that. There is an absolute profit motive to preserving high-quality production for your brand. And when you can control all elements of that, as Davidoff do, as Fuente do, as others do, then you're in control of all the levers. if there is a batch coming out which has a problem in construction, that gets stopped before it leaves the factory. So competition with all the other brands is breeding that level of high quality in a way that Cuba doesn't because they own it all as a state.

42:17And accountability. It comes out of your pocket at every level. If you make a mistake with your brand and the word goes round that your cigars are plugged, then clearly people are going to be cautious buying your cigar. Cuba has benefited from having distributed accountability. That's probably the right way to put it. That's nicely put it. And of course, as retailers, we're the front line of the war against poorly made cigars. When a customer returns a cigar that is poorly constructed, if it's a Cuban cigar, or we never have it with non-Cuban, but let's presume it's a Cuban, you know we don't want the client to take the blame for that so we will absorb that very often into our own cash flow but you are now the equivalent of dr schneider's you know davidoff calling up the producer saying look i'm not i'm not willing to put up with that you need to sort your supply better and if they're a non-cuban brand like davidoff a maker like they will probably listen but sadly in cuba that's exactly why davidoff left yeah exactly exactly because they did not have control what's the best route for collectors when it comes to non-cuban cigars because with cuban you have guys who tend to get a good steer on the best brands and obviously that they're you know that's fairly well dictated uh when limited editions come out or regionals come out.