4 Myths That Sabotage Your Career Growth with Maya Grossman, CEO and Executive Coach | Ep. 347

0:00Hey besties, welcome back to another episode of the Marketing Millennials. I'm Tamara Griminski and I'm stepping in as your guest host while Daniel's out on paternity leave. I'm a career product marketing leader and the former VP of PMM at high growth startups like Kajabi and Unbounce. Now I'm the founder of PMM Camp, a community and newsletter for product marketing leaders. And while Daniel is off doing dad things, I'll be here bringing you fun conversations with some of the smartest marketers I know. Today, I'm joined by my friend, Maya Grossman, an executive career coach, two-time VP of marketing, and the author of the bestselling book, Invaluable.

0:35Maya built her career at global companies like Microsoft and Google, but it wasn't a straight climb. After 17 rejections in a row, she figured out what it really takes to break through to senior leadership, eventually landing two VP roles in her 30s. And she's helped countless marketers do the same, getting unstuck, earning bigger roles, and building the kind of influence that gets you noticed and promoted. In this episode, we dig into why so many great marketers hit a ceiling in their careers and what it actually takes to break through. Maya shares the skill shifts you need to make to go from manager to leader and the biggest traps that keep marketers stuck.

1:12We'll also get into practical steps you can take to position yourself for promotion in the next 12 to 18 months, starting tomorrow. Welcome to the Marketing Millennials, the no BS marketing podcast. I'm Daniel Murray, and join me for unfiltered conversations with the brains behind marketing's coolest companies. The one request I tell our guests, stories or it didn't happen. Get ready to turn the f*** up. Maya, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. We were just chatting and we said this is going to be such an incredible conversation because what we're talking about today, there's no playbook.

1:58When you join corporate, no one tells you, hey, this is how you get promoted. It happens in, you know, back channels, conversations. And today we're going to spill all the tea. I love it. And I feel like it is going to be such a good conversation because not only have we done this ourselves, but we've also coached a lot of other marketers through this. So I feel like we're going to have multiple perspectives to share today, which is great. So, I mean, on that point, I think we know like a lot of marketers, they could be like the best marketer in the world, but they often hit a ceiling in their career, even when they are delivering amazing results.

2:33From your perspective, like why do you think so many people get stuck at a certain level? Yeah, so from what I've seen, this usually happens around the senior manager director level. And the reason I know is because I actually lived through that. When I was trying to become a director, I was rejected 17 times. I counted. I put it on a spreadsheet. And I couldn't figure out why because I was getting good reviews. I was hitting my goals. But every time I went for that promotion or even try to get a job at the next level, I kept hearing, you're not ready. And it created this weird situation, which I like to call the mid-management hell loop, where the more work you do, the more work you get, but not a strategic kind.

3:18And I think a lot of the time it happens because we put ourselves in this box of the doer, right? We're so busy with the execution that we're not showing some of those executive skills. And the reality is what made you a great marketing manager is very different than what will make you a really great marketing executive. but it's almost like the rules have changed, but no one tells you. So what do we do? We keep doing more of the same and expect different results and it just doesn't work. Yeah. It's like that saying, it's like what got you here won't get you there. Right. And one of the things I've seen, even in my own career or just observing from me around me is like, not every manager even knows how to describe back to their team, how they got to where they are.

4:01So to your point, it's like, There's not a playbook, but also when you ask people who have done it, they can't clearly articulate what they've done to get there. Yeah, you always get, I'm going to know when you get there. But what does that leave us with, right? How do we actually do that? And I think that's part of what we're going to break down today so that people start understanding what it really takes and what they can start doing today. Yeah, I definitely want to make today's conversation as actionable as possible. and you mentioned that like the skills that kind of got you to this part of your career are not the same skills that are going to take you to the next one.

4:37Can you break that down a little bit for us? Help us understand. Yeah. So I like to share this metaphor that basically says that getting yourself all the way to senior manager is kind of like driving a car and you've been doing it for a few years. You get really good, but getting to that VP level, it's more like flying a plane, which means it's just not the same thing. Just because you're a good driver, it's not going to make you a really great pilot. So we need to make a shift. We need to move from how can I run the campaigns to how can I influence the direction that marketing is going with. So it's kind of making this shift from more the doing to the leading.

5:19And we can break that down, what that actually means. But I think that is the biggest shift. Yeah. I also think it is a bit tricky too, though, because it's not like you can just not do any more either, right? Like, yes, especially it depends on the size of company you're at, but like you can't leave everything behind you. It's not like you're burning the bridge behind you, I guess is what I'm trying to say. Oh no, not at all. It's a process and this is how I like to break it. So early in your career, it's almost a hundred percent the execution, right? This is you, the technical skills, getting the job done, learning the ropes.

5:55And that's incredible. I think around the senior manager director level, that's when it's going to be split 50-50. About 50 % of your time is still the doing, that's important, but you're going to start learning some of those executive skills. And when you get to VP, it's more 80-20. And I think it's not either or, it's shifting the balance. And I think that's the part that people struggle with because you can't just show up one day and say, I'm done. I don't want to do anything anymore. So now I just want to lead. It doesn't work this way. But we also don't want you to try and do the work of two people and burn out, right?

6:28Doesn't make sense. So what you need to think about is it's a process. How do I get there? And you do that by learning how to delegate. So you're not the only person doing the work. You do that by getting ruthless with prioritization, because not everything on your to-do list is going to be as important, and actually eliminating some work that is just not relevant. And if you do that over and over again, over time, you'll make a little bit more time for yourself to think strategically, to meet with more stakeholders, to start thinking about the next quarter, not just what you're doing right now.

7:03And that's how you make the shift. I love that. And I think we talk about skills and a lot of time we think technical skills, but I think soft skills are also important. And from my experience, actually one of the most important skills to learn to get, you know, even to the director level is the ability to say no. How often does that come up in like your work? Like, do you see a difference in people who are actually able to say no and say like a respectful no? Oh, a hundred percent. And we need to understand that it sends a message. So how we show up every single day, how we have a conversation, what we choose to do, what we don't choose to do, it basically trains people how to treat us.

7:45And if we are not respectful of our own time, then other people are not going to respect it either. So I think learning how to say no the right way makes a huge difference, not only for you, that you're not going to drown in work and do things that you don't like, but also to set boundaries and basically let everyone know, hey, my time is valuable. Because that actually means I'm more strategic. When I actually spend my time, it makes a difference. And that way you're not going to get dumped on with tons of work that is not relevant. I just think people are scared that if they say no, it's going to diminish their value, if I'm not doing everything and anything, that I'm not going to be delivering the right results.

8:26but here's the part that we need to understand. If we are shifting into senior leadership, our value is not tied to what we can do, how much work we can get done. The value comes from solving bigger problems, from moving the needle, from having more influence. So when we say no, we make time for these things. And I've seen people that I work with, that I coach, that were so afraid of saying no, that they were answering emails and texts throughout the weekend and getting anxiety, really stressing out. And what we started doing, and this is a tip for everyone if you have a micromanager, is instead of immediately answering, she started waiting like two, three hours, and then she answered.

9:12The week after that, she waited half a day before she answered. Then the next day. Then she started saying, I'll get back to you on Monday. And guess what? Nothing happened. And the text just stopped appearing over the weekend because how we act tells people how to treat us. And it also created more of that executive presence because now she wasn't someone that her manager, you know, could reach out to randomly. He had to respect her time, too. I think that's such a powerful thing. Like how we act tells people how to treat us. It's actually super relevant for most things in life. But another thing that I have done to help people and even myself say no is to help them understand like, what am I saying no to if I say yes to your thing?

9:59Because I think a lot of people don't realize that if you're just constantly saying yes, it's basically signaling to your manager that you're under capacity, right? Because your manager doesn't think, oh, you're smart. They're like, oh, well, if they say yes, they must have time to do this. And so what I always say is say, oh, thank you for sharing that. Here's what I'm currently working on. Here's my current priorities. Is this thing that you're asking me to do more important than the other things that we've already agreed on? And half the time, the answer is no. The manager will look and they'll be like, nope, you're right.

10:32Actually, this is more important. Keep going with your plan. But sometimes it will come up and they'll be like, actually, yes, this is really timely, or this was an unexpected thing. And hey, let's get this one thing off your plate to get this thing on your plate instead. And again, it actually allows you to like show up as being more strategic. It's the prioritization that you mentioned earlier, right? Exactly. And we also have to remember that when we say yes to too many things and we're overwhelmed, we're not gonna do any of them well. So it's not good for us and for our reputation. It's better to do less things, but do them really, really well, especially if you wanna get that promotion.

11:08It's not about how much you can get done. It's about the impact. So you've worked with marketers at like every stage of their career. I know you specialize a lot with like the more mid to senior, but I'm curious about what myths you keep seeing coming up time and time again about what it really takes to get promoted. So it's like, I kind of heard one today, which is like, you need to work harder, but what are some of the other ones? Okay, this is going to get juicy. So I think first and foremost, we need to get aligned on what a promotion is. So one of the biggest lies that we tell ourselves is that a promotion is a reward for doing your job well.

11:45And the reality is, no, it's not. Because if that was the case, every single person who works hard will get a promotion. But it's not like in school. You can't have 20 people getting an A. So there's something else that actually drives promotions. And especially at the senior level, a promotion is a vote of confidence that you can do work at the next level. So if you're just busy doing your job really well, it's actually not going to get you promoted. It will keep you stuck. So I think that's the first thing we need to get out of our heads. Hard work alone will not get us promoted. I think the second one, which I see a lot, is I have to get an MBA or another certificate or another skill if I want to get promoted.

12:29And that might have been true early in your career because you're still building the toolkit. But I think from the senior manager and above, it's not about that. What you actually need is more of those soft skills, the executive skills. And I think a lot of people, just because they assume that they need to wait for a credential, they just stay stuck. Not to mention, I have seen people with MBAs from Ivy League schools who can get promoted because they don't have the executive presence because it didn't actually solve the problem. So you don't need those credentials. You can probably get promoted without them.

13:07And I would say number three is that we all think that hard work speaks for itself. And this is a big one because I know a lot of us just have been told to stay humble, Keep your head down. You will get there. And I think there are a lot of good intentions behind that. It's just not true because our work doesn't have a voice unless we actually put a voice behind it. And if senior leadership does not know what you're doing, if they have no idea of your impact, well, guess what? When promotion conversations are going to happen, your name will not come up because they literally just don't think of you.

13:46And we make this mistake thinking if I stay quiet, it will make me humble, right? Which is a very good quality to have. But in the corporate world, it just makes you invisible. And invisible people don't get promoted. So I think those are three big lies that just hold people back from even trying or send them in the wrong direction. So they do so much work, but they're not getting the result that they want. Yeah, there's so much to unpack there. I mean, I do want to double click on your middle one, which is around the credentials, because I think hopefully this is changing as even AI is changing, you know, how people go to school and what people go to school for.

14:27But so early in my career, I had this limiting belief of like, I don't have an MBA. I'll never become a CEO. And at the time that was kind of my ambition, but it's like, I don't have an MBA. I did not go to an Ivy league school. I went to some random school in Canada and I have been a VP twice and was in the C-suite, you know, And so it's like, if I can do it, you can do it too. I really believe that. And to your point, I have met so many people who do have an MBA who get in their own way. Like, I do not think that that is like a qualifier for leadership at all. Not at all. And I'll take it even a step further.

15:02I have one client I worked with who believed she will never become a VP because, get this, she didn't even have a college degree. And because of that, she just didn't try. And after working together and just getting rid of that limiting belief, we didn't add skills, we didn't really do anything bigger than that. Six months later, she was a VP. And that's why I say some of these are just so bad because we think they are truth, but they're not absolute truth. They're not facts. They're just ideas that someone shared and became very common, except they're not the reality. Yeah. I'd love to double click into one of these kind of myths or lies.

15:42You can kind of choose which one just to really like make it real for the marketers who are listening in today. Like how would this actually come to life for them? And how, once they realize that they're in one of these little traps or these lies, could they start to climb out of it? Yeah. So, look, I spent about 20 years in corporate. And like I shared with you, 17 rejections. That was a very low point for me. I still have that spreadsheet, by the way. Every time one of my clients complains, I'm like, look at this. Yeah. And I learned something really interesting because the way to get out of that funk to actually get myself to the next level, I did two things.

16:21The first one is I went out and I actually interviewed any and all executives that would talk to me. So I'm talking a hundred messages on LinkedIn, completely cold, because I wanted to know what do these people have that I don't. Yes. And I also hired a coach because I wanted someone to put a mirror in front of me and tell me, what am I doing wrong? Not the, you know, really kind sandwich feedback. Oh, you're great. Keep doing what you're doing, which is nice for the ego, but doesn't actually help. And she gave me real feedback. And together, these two things, this is when I actually realized what it takes to get promoted.

16:58And there are only three things that you need. And I know this after helping hundreds of people do the same thing. The first thing and the first mistake that people actually make is the mindset trap. And we started touching on that, but this is when you actually stand in your own way. And this is what I call the invisible career killer, because you can't see it, but it can hold you back for years. This is you telling yourself you're not ready. You're not good enough. I need that MBA. I'm too old. I'm too young. All of the excuses. And the problem is when you believe that, then you don't show up.

17:33You don't raise your hand. You don't put yourself in situations to be successful. But if you want to be a leader, if you want to be an executive, you need to know how to have hard conversations. You need the confidence to stand up for yourself. You need to get into a room and push back and be able to do that and stand up for your ideas. So mindset is a key. But most of us stand in our own way, which, unbelievable but 80 % of success is mindset only 20 % is execution so that's the first trap that people fall into the second one is what we call the perception problem and this is when you have done such a good job with execution you're the person they always go to that you're the most reliable you're the doer but you've done it so well that you put yourself in a box they can only see you as someone who executes, they can't see your executive potential.

18:30And in corporate, perception is reality. We said how people see you is how they will treat you. So if they think you're really good at doing, you're going to get more work. If they see you as a strategic partner, they'll invite you to the table. So we need to make sure that we are sending the right signals and that we're showing people what we can do. And then the third trap is very much about visibility, which is that last lie of my work will speak for itself, but it doesn't. And where I see a lot of people fall is they just avoid self-promotion. They're like, I don't want to be that person. Or, you know, I'm so good that my work will speak for itself.

19:09And I have news for you. It won't. It doesn't matter how good you are. People don't read minds, right? So we have to make sure that the right people not only know your name, that's not enough, but they can associate it with that executive potential. And I think when we fix those three, that's when people actually start shining because it was never about their skill or marketing capabilities. It's about doing the right things to be seen as ready. Yeah, there's a lot there. I mean, and I think the first and second one are, I mean, they're all connected to mindset. So I think you're right with like 80 % of this is mindset.

19:45But even that second piece, like in my experience, a lot of people who, you know, want to move up the ladder or get promoted are achievers, right? And mostly achievers have associated accomplishment with self-worth. And I'm speaking from my own personal experience because I'm an achiever and I associate it with my own self-worth. And honestly, part of the journey for me was untangling this and recognizing achievement looks different. It doesn't just have to be the amount of things I do. I love what you said earlier about like solving bigger problems, having a bigger impact, like that's achievement too, right?

20:24But untangling all of that because we have been so ingratiated to be like, I need to add more to my due to list. That means I'm achieving. And we do it to ourselves, you know. And you actually have to be willing to feel uncomfortable, I think, to unwind that. And work on that belief. For me, when I just started this transition, I felt so weird blocking time on my calendar to think. Exactly. I was like, no, but I'm not working. I'm stealing from the company. I'm not doing something worthwhile until I realized, wait a minute, all of these executives that I look up to, they get paid so much more, not because they put in more hours, not because they know how to do everything, because they can think differently.

21:07And that was kind of the aha moment for me. Wait. So if that's the important thing, it makes sense that I'm making time for it. But yeah, we need to unlearn a few things to get there. Yeah. I also love that you kind of shared the story around talking to others and asking yourself, like, what do they have that I don't have? Another way I could frame that too is like, who do I actually want to emulate? Because I also think this is a trap I see people fall into, which is they see some leaders and they're like, well, that's what leadership is. I need to be more aggressive or I need to make decisions faster or I need to talk more.

21:44And yes, you do need to show up in meetings. You do need to be able to communicate your ideas. but leadership means so many different things. And I think once you understand what kind of leader you want to be, you're able to kind of like design your path to getting that promotion as well. At least that was true for me. And really having those role models of like, that is what I'm working towards. Yeah, I agree. And I actually had the wrong role models for a while. So I've seen all of those super aggressive, very cold, distant, don't really like their team. And I actually tried to do that for a while, but I got so frustrated and I was so tired of trying to fake it.

22:25And I think it goes back to that belief that people think that executive presence, right? So what we're talking about showing up like a leader, it's a one size fits all. You have to be Steve Jobs. That's the only way to do it. So that's the way we go. But what I learned, again, after 20 years of being in corporate, is that it's not true. There are a lot of different flavors. Think about Michelle Obama and Steve Jobs. Both have executive presence, but they do it in a very different way. And what it taught me is, yes, there are some skills that demonstrate this ability, this connection and conviction, but how we show them is very different.

23:01And we can tap into our own strength and what we believe and what we love and do it authentically and still be great leaders. So I love that you mentioned not just, okay, tell me what you're doing differently, but who do I really want to be like? Or maybe get inspired by, right? Because we're all unique and different. But it's important to have some sort of a direction of where you want to go. Exactly. And to your point, who you don't want to be as well, right? It's like, just like how we have personas in product marketing and like the anti-persona. It's like, who is your leadership model and your anti-leadership role model?

23:38Yeah. And this is actually so, so, so important because we spend a lot of time trying to live up to someone else's dreams. And our career is our career. And it needs to make us happy and fulfilled. And I'm okay with not being the best fit for every company because my style is not for everyone. I would much rather find the right place versus shrink myself. And I had a leader who wanted me to do that, who was like, you're too much, you're too aggressive. And even though most of my team was very happy, he couldn't see it. So I just realized I was in the wrong place. It wasn't that I was doing something wrong.

24:16But yeah, it's definitely a process of tapping into who do you actually want to be? Just this casual existential questions. You have mentioned several times throughout this conversation the term executive presence. And I'm sure anyone who's following along who has some hopes of being promoted or has been promoted in the past has heard this themselves, right? It's just like, just don't have the right executive presence or keep working on your executive presence. What the heck does that even mean? Can you help us understand it? Yeah, I know. That's like one of those weird, bizarre buzzwords that no one knows what it means, but we can definitely break it down.

24:55I actually read something recently that really resonated. It said, executive presence is like gravity. You can see it, but you can feel its pull. And I think that is true because it's hard to put it in words. But when we're in the environment and someone has that level of presence, we can feel it. And what I tried to do is to figure out, okay, what are the behaviors behind it? Because it's not talent. It's not something you're born with. It's not even charisma or a vibe. It's a set of behaviors that when you demonstrate them, other people receive them as, I'm senior. I'm ready for more. I can drive more impact.

25:35And there's actually research from the Center of Talent Innovation that breaks executive presence into three components. So the first one is gravitas, which is just a fancy word to how you act, what you do every day. And then number two is communication. Not just what you say, but also how you write. And then the third part is how you show up. That's your appearance, how you carry yourself. And if you look at that, it means that what we do every single day, right? How we act, how we communicate, how we show up, either sends the message, I'm ready for more, or it doesn't. But it's not about doing more work.