6 Marketing Insights from Fashion to B2B Brands with Kevin Branscum, Senior Director of Brand Marketing at Typeform | Ep. 342

0:00Welcome back to another episode of the Marketing Millennials. I'm Tavara Griminski, and I'm stepping in as your guest host while Daniel's out on pat leave. I'm a career product marketing leader and the former VP of PMM at high-growth startups like Kajabi and M.M.S. Now I'm the founder of PMM Camp, a community and newsletter for product marketing leaders. And while Daniel's off doing dad things, I'll be here bringing you fun combos with some of the smartest marketers I know. Today's episode is all about brand. I'm joined by Kevin Branscum, the Senior Director of Brand Marketing at Typeform. Before joining the tech world, Kevin worked at Michael Kors, Blue Nile, and Uniqlo, companies where brand is the business.

0:37It's not up for debate. And now he's bringing that same energy into B2B. In this episode, we talk about what marketers can learn from industries where brand leads the way, the biggest mindset shifts Kevin had to make moving into SaaS, and his lessons from building beloved brands across fashion, e-com, and now tech. Welcome to the Marketing Millennials, the no BS marketing podcast. I'm Daniel Murray and join me for unfiltered conversations with the brains behind marketing's coolest companies. The one request I tell our guests, stories or it didn't happen. Get ready to turn the f*** up. Kevin, welcome to the show.

1:25Thanks so much for having me. So you have a super interesting career because you've seen the inner workings of both fashion brands as well as maybe a bit more boring B2B software companies. And so I want to pick your brain a bit. Take us inside, you know, what that company looks like. If a tech marketer were to shadow a fashion CMO for a day, what do you think would shock them the most about what they would see? That's a really good way to frame that question. I've answered it in so many kind of ways, but not like that. I think what they would see first and foremost is probably the very kind of self-aware realization that what you're making is not very different.

2:09Okay. So I think that's kind of catching up in the SaaS or tech world, you know, in the fashion world, especially like the mass market fashion that I was in, like Michael Kors and such. we recognized that the products we were making were literally not different from our competitors save for the label you put on the bag or the tag which it kind of signals the brand which is kind of where I come from and I think that's a realization you just kind of know so you go about your day figuring out how to be distinctly different from them in every other way so in the the way you market, the way you run your social, the way you just kind of come out as a personality or as a brand, if you will.

2:55I think in that world, that'd be the biggest shock for a tech marketer. They'd be seeing the brand marketing team at the kind of tip of the spear, at the helm of the ship, driving a lot of the strategy, making a lot of the decisions, setting the kind of the framework, being responsible for the kind of overall marketing calendar. That is typically always within the brand marketing team. Whereas, you know, you probably know in the tech world, there might not even be a brand marketing team. There might be an afterthought. It's sometimes seen as like added value when you get to a certain point of revenue.

3:27So that'd be a big shock. And I think the reason that it does exist in that way and kind of is at the tip of the spear is because they recognize that that really is what's making them get purchased over their competitors. That's so interesting. So as a product marketer, obviously differentiation is something I keep top of mind, but I agree that probably like that brand marketer, like I'm constantly the one urging to be like, we need to talk about our competitors. We actually aren't that unique. And that's an uphill battle in a tech company, actually, because I think everyone thinks they're special, what they're building, no one else could build.

4:04So it's interesting because it sounds like they really recognize that brand is the business. How does that actually change the way that they go about their day to day? Because you mentioned that that really impacts everything. I think the day to day and I was thinking about this recently, like in how my like meeting schedule or each week is slightly different. I think brand marketing teams or brand marketing kind of at its core is so focused on people and behavior and psychographics and kind of emotional resonance and making sure you kind of get remembered and resonate with the end user or people in general, even prospects.

4:47It doesn't have to be the user. So I think I've noticed looking back even my three years at Typeform and then before that at Smartsheet, there's very few meetings about the people that you're trying to reach. There is sometimes in terms of like product usage or very kind of problem solution, which I get. But I think there's this kind of overemphasis on like being super logical and people being super efficient. And it's like, what is their problem with this tool? How do we solve it? But at the end of the day, regardless of how they're using the tool or the problem you're solving with your solution or software tool or whatever, like they're still out there in the world being inundated with messages and marketing and typically connecting with things that make them laugh or make them cry or make them remember.

5:36And I think that is where brand marketing steps in where I think is, and look, you, it's, I'm glad you're actually have a product marketing task because I have, you know, shifting feelings about brand versus product. And I don't think they should ever be versus it should be very much overlap. But I think the product marketing direction, typically what I've seen is very like, let's explain this thing. Let's explain the logical side of this thing. Let's make sure we hammer home on the differentiation and the efficiency. whereas that's not necessarily how people, whether they're in a business or not, behave or react to things out there in terms of stimuli.

6:12So I think a lot of it depends on where you're trying to get them to do, where in the funnel you are. But I think sometimes what is logical and what is efficient is not necessarily what gets a product chosen or purchased. I've been thinking a lot about our conversation. And I think we're going to take this in an interesting way because I was thinking about, okay, what is product marketing? Product marketing for a long time marketed features, right? Which is like, here are a set of features you can use to do something. I think typically what we would say in the industry is good product marketing markets outcomes and benefits.

6:49But I think what you're saying and what I was thinking about ahead of our chat is like, you're almost saying brands and brand-led marketing markets feelings Or like not just the actual outcome of I'm now able to do my job better, but it's the emotional outcome that more of a fashion direct to consumer brand might market rather than a more software product. Am I getting that right? Yeah, I mean, exactly. I mean, yes, but I'm not suggesting that brand marketing is always focusing even on like what the product does, if that makes sense. So like, yes. Tell me more. like let's say i think you can do brand marketing that is like really hyperbolic examples of what a product does like i don't know whether it's project management tool or form builder like type form and i've seen this happen internally where i've kind of pitched something that is you know maybe wild or like the response is but that's not how our product is used and i'm like but that doesn't matter because it's a hyperbolic version of it people will be able to people aren't as dumb as you think they'll draw to the conclusion the point is that this is um you know let me think of the example like in click up i think i remember there one of their commercials was like if only you had click up during like the declaration of independence and like that and i can i can imagine the conversation internally i'm sure someone was like but that's not that's not the that's not the use case it's like but that's okay it's still it's still related so maybe on my answering question But like my point there is like, that's a very brand marketing play.

8:23It's not really outcome focused. It's not really like super solution or use case focus, but it is like almost nodding to the use case, but like being really hyperbolic, like exacerbating it a little bit. Yeah. Well, what kind of comes to mind for me is coffee. I don't know why, but it just has like, for example, if I go to Starbucks or any other random coffee shop, I'm getting a cup of coffee. but like when I'm in a city where there's a Ralph's coffee shop which is like the Ralph Lauren coffee shop like I will go out of my way to go there the coffee is not any better than anywhere else I would go but I immediately feel different drinking it I feel like maybe I could be on the east coast in a cottage environment you know on Cape Cod or something like that so I think that's exactly right here yeah I mean at the end of the day what you're saying is like you the logical choice is go to the cheapest option that's the closest to you that's the same quality of coffee but you let your like non-logical human self kind of dictate your choice in that moment and I think in b2b there's this assumption like businesses need to be efficient they need to be logical to make money therefore the people that work in businesses are efficient and are logical but that's not true because we are as you know we're working I work in B2B, but I'm also a consumer of things and I'm influenced by those things.

9:43So that's kind of what we forget a lot in B2B is that the B2C companies and the B2B companies are going after the same people just for different reasons. Totally. We're all people on the other side of the sale. Yeah. I was trying to avoid saying like business to human because I've heard that so many times, but yeah. I'm curious about what customer or market research looks like in these two different environments. So obviously my background is in B2B. I've done a lot of voice of customer research, a lot of customer segmentation. But to your point, it does often focus on like, what are your desired outcomes?

10:17What functional benefits are you looking for? Sure, we do like to understand some like firmographics, psychographics, different things, some behaviors, but I don't think it's quite the same type of research that you're hinting at. So maybe walk us through how you might approach research differently in that scenario. Yeah, I think that's right i haven't seen much by way of um psychographic or behavioral research unless it's about like the product usage specifically like we had a meeting a customer sync meeting yesterday where we were hearing from the voice of the customer and we were listening to people and watching people walk through like our onboarding process and so it's very centered around the product which i totally get i think in where i've come from b2c i just spend so much more time I'm talking about like, what are they watching?

11:06What are they like listening to? Like kind of what's happening in the world as it relates to these people. I think it's to give a bent, like that's a little bit because those products are like lifestyle products. So we're looking more like what is their lifestyle? But I do think it's important to just kind of stay with your finger on the pulse of like how people are behaving, like socioeconomic things that are happening, geopolitical things that are happening movies culture books like you don't have to be i think there's a misconception people think you have to be chronically online to be a good like brand marketer or b2c marketer not true just follow the right sub stacks like get a couple of them that you read to stay up to date but i think that's the difference is like there's there's almost too much emphasis on how the product is being used by the people and not enough information about like but who are these people are they you know is it are there certain geos that maybe that's how we can like market to them differently is it a type form it's such a widespread so it's actually really hard but like is there a certain like gender age whatever that might dictate a little bit on how you like personalize your marketing or the color palette you choose on your home page like i think i don't see a lot of that i didn't at my previous company don't necessarily a type form as much we're doing a little more of it.

12:27But yeah, I think most of my time in B2C world was talking about stuff like that. Yeah. It's super interesting because I think even if we're doing, we feel like we're doing good customer research and we're immersing ourselves in customers, often it is from behind a screen. I remember I did pragmatic marketing courses like early in my marketing career. And one of the things that I think they get right is this idea of like getting out of the office. And that's something I've always tried to have my teams do, which is, yes, research customers in all of these different ways, but just immerse yourself with those customers, not even as like a researcher, just be in those places, see what they talk about when they're not talking about work, see what words they're using on their own, what conversations, what feeling is happening in that room.

13:12And honestly, that's where I've learned the most about my customers. Exactly. I mean, one of our, at Typeform, one of our main segments is the marketer. which is such a dangerous place to be in when you are marketing to someone who you think looks like you you can make so many assumptions and so it's so much so that we for the longest time we're like treating our customer like the b2b sass marketer and i'm like no no no we have b2c marketers using typeform b2b marketers all types of industries all types of sizes and so especially when it comes to like competitive marketing or things like that i actually don't like it i don't look at competitors as much.

13:51I hope my boss doesn't hear this. Or if I do, it's to what to avoid. Because, you know, I think when you look at them, it's very easy to be like, oh, we have to do that also. And then you're just all sounding alike. But it's actually the first person to kind of deviate that's better. So in general, when it comes to like more top funnel brand campaign type marketing or social things, I actually encourage my team to look outside of our space. But like what are, if we're talking to the marketing audience specifically, like what's happening on ad week with like fast, fast food or fast fashion or whatever, just like absorb everything and you'll find something, if that makes sense.

14:30I love that. I say that all the time too. I'm like, just think about everything that you are buying throughout your day and what made you buy that thing. And you will learn so much just about human psychology that way. Right. Um, okay. So One of the things that, you know, Daniel always says on the pod is stories or it didn't happen. And when I was looking at all the different places you worked, I was like, wow, you've had some really cool experiences. So I thought what we could do is a little bit of a different format where maybe you share like a lesson learned from each of like the buckets of work that you've done.

15:03So I've gone ahead and bucketed your work for you. You might tell me that this is wrong, but I want to start from kind of the fashion. So you were at Michael Kors. You were at Uniqlo. Um, those to me are completely different spaces than where you are today in type form. And I want to get to that a little bit later too, but for me, those are companies that prioritize brands. Like brand is the business, as we talked about earlier, what's one lesson that you took away from those experiences that still impact how you approach building brands today? I think I kind of been talking about it, which is like what's happening in the world.

15:40Like what are people, what's in the zeitgeist? Like how can you use that in any sort of subtle way or maybe a more direct way? It doesn't matter. But how can you use that to kind of influence your tone or how you're talking on social or the imagery you're showing? I think we used to always have swipe reviews, which is swipe in this case was like inspirational imagery of like what's out there in the wild. And like our creative directors and our brand team would do like swipe reviews of what's happening. and just so we can all feel like we're up to speed on the times if you will um that was just common i started at an ad agency actually so before michael kors i was at an ad agency and i had clients like revlon banana republic jimmy chew and that sort of process happened at all of those companies so yeah i would just say like stay in the know what people are consuming listening to hearing just like what's happening in culture like you have to be culturally kind of up to speed to be a good brand marketer.

16:38And I think that also implies that like you are iterating and evolving your brand regularly, which is something I do not see in B2B or at least not as often. Like, and even in my experiences, all the companies I've worked at, like we will do a big brand overhaul where we will do some of that. Then we will roll out the brand. Then we, you know, we might adjust a few words on our homepage as we're testing different, but we don't change the brand again for years sometimes when the reality is like, yeah, the markets are changing weekly, monthly, right? How do you think about that? Like, how do you think about iterating a brand, but also within the constraints of like, well, we're running a large business as well.

17:22We can't maybe just change. It's such a good point. We actually have an always on project that we call the brand refresh. And for people and new people start, they're like, what is that? What is that? When is it ending? Like, it's not ending. Like we just, we assume there's always going to be sort of tweaks adjustments things we add like to create new brand assets like for example some new parts of our brand refresh right now is like kind of updating and evolving our motion library we're creating these things that we're calling miniatures which is essentially like data personified into like little human figurines to kind of replace this like you know vector illustration style that every single b2b company has but yeah i think we're doing that in response to what we're seeing out there in the world and like for and sometimes to keep up with it or sometimes to intentionally deviate from it so we can stand out a little because I think half the battle on marketing at this point is just standing out for better or worse because we're all there's just so many of us and so much happening that we're all starting to look and sound the same so yeah I think that's I think that answered your question definitely this is the first time I've ever in my entire career heard of an always-on brand refresh I am here for it and I'm going to be stealing that.

18:32I think that's great. It's just like a habit that you bake into how you work, right? That's what I'm hearing. Exactly. Amazing. Okay. So then if I'm looking at your resume, you were at Blue Nile, which to me, I think of Blue Nile as like engagement rings. I know they also sell some other products, but I'm thinking high ticket item. That's probably an item you only are buying one of. Maybe you come back to buy a wedding band. But when I was starting to think about, well, how does that change brand marketing? I'm thinking, well, trust, because if I'm going to give you$10 ,000,$20 ,000, I need to really trust that A, you're going to mail me this item that I'm buying from you.

19:10B, that it's high quality and better than what I could get from my local jewelry store. And also high stakes. If I mess up this purchase, this could ruin the rest of my life, right? That's probably the feeling that someone feels. How did that frame change how you thought about brand marketing? Or maybe did you learn something about brand marketing through that role that you hadn't experienced earlier in fashion previously? Yeah, I think I'm going to zoom out from just talking about brand marketing because I want to talk a little bit about content marketing. At Typeform, actually, content falls under brands.

19:44It could be relevant depending on where you are. But this Blue Nile was... You're right. It's the bread and butter is engagement diamonds, engagement rings, diamonds, things like that. it was the first time I realized how bad it was to make an assumption about who your audience was. Because something we did at Blue Nile, when you started, you had to go to the call center and shadow someone, like basically be on the floor and shadow different calls for two weeks, which I love. I would recommend that. Actually, at Uniqlo, I did the same thing. We had to work the sales floor for a week. So I love companies that kind of force you into that because you really are getting involved with the customer right away but i notice i don't want to pat myself on the back because i was the first to notice this but all the calls i was shadowing were no this is very like heteronormative were men and but our marketing on our website was very feminine because it's it's diamond rings it's engagement it's jewelry but most of the people that were actually searching browsing the website and talking to customer service were people buying gifts or buying engagement rings for their loved ones or you know their girlfriends or wives and i was like that's odd like on the website every single page is very flowery very feminine very like aspirational look at this ring but it seems and most of the calls that i was shadowing for were what cut do i get her what cut is most popular what what's more important carrot versus clarity and it was a lot of this like education need and so we actually did a campaign where it was called we just called it the diamond education campaign where we created parts of the website and we worked with an illustrator to almost like draw the different cuts and explain the four c's and it became a hugely trafficked part of the website because people were going and looking for like self-serve information on what someone else wanted because they're not looking for themselves so i think it's not really brand marketing specific it's just marketing in general like almost like i was saying earlier don't assume just because oh we're selling engagement rings women care about engagement rings let's make it flowery and aspirational like yeah they do but the people spending 10 20 30k are typically the significant others looking for information not caring about the quality of that photo shoot that you did or some of these more flowery lifestyle aspirational images they're just looking for like information and then kind of confirmation that what they're selecting is what the other person wants and it's especially tricky in that world because they're not asking you know what i mean like you're for the most part trying to surprise this person so they're just like hoping for the best it was it was almost like a social experiment on like marketing because you had two audiences one was hidden and couldn't speak to the other part of the audience because it was the recipient of the gift or the engagement ring And again, I think it's just a reminder of listening to what people are thinking and feeling and saying, which goes back to my point about brand focusing a lot on psychographics and hearing from people and not just in the context of how the product is used.

22:55I think that's a really interesting case study. And actually, so when I was at FreshBooks, they did the exact same thing with the customer experience. So my first month of FreshBooks, I needed to sit in support. and the first week was like in-depth training and then weeks two to four we had to be on the phones like actually taking these live calls not just shadowing and it was super immersive but then I had so much empathy for the customer and same as you like I kind of went into that job thinking that maybe the customer was one thing and then coming out of those four weeks being like oh no that's not the customer or I just have a better understanding of who that customer is.

23:29Totally and look I hated it at the time I'm not the most I'm not the best customer facing person but it is invaluable in terms of actually doing it. Yeah. Same. I feel that. Question for you about your time at Blue Nile. Were you there during the time when like lab diamonds were becoming a thing? Yes. Was that ever part of, well, I guess I should rephrase that. Tell me more about what that experience was like, because I've thought a lot about how diamonds are positioned and I've heard lab diamonds be positioned as like artisan diamonds, lab diamonds. how did you approach that as a brand team so i was there definitely in the conversation and more so just from like a kind of media monitoring social listing like what's happening because we weren't at the time i don't even know if they are today um selling lab grown diamonds to my knowledge and it's almost it reminds me of the ai conversation now it's like how to take advantage of this thing and then but but from what angle you know there was discussions like oh lab diamonds are like are ethical diamonds because diamond mining isn't the most like positive thing it has it has a lot of it's very polarizing um but from a brand marketing perspective we didn't do much with it i think there was more our pr team just had the kind of kind of pre-written statements and idea about loud diamonds, you know, in case our CEO were ever to get interviewed and asked about it, we kind of have these canned responses, but I wasn't there long enough for it to make its way into like what I was working on day to day.

25:06That's fair. I thought I'd just pick your brain if I could, because it's something I've thought a lot about. Okay. I want to move on now from your experience in the consumer market, because then you went into software. First, I want to know what drove you to make that change? What were you looking for in that space? I was poached. I will say I didn't necessarily make the decision to look. I also didn't out of college wasn't like I want to go into fashion. So I knew I wanted to be in marketing. I think in my ideal world, when I was younger, it probably would have been consumer tech. So now I've kind of done both separately, but I just happened to use at three companies in a row at the ad agency at Michael Kors and then at Uniqlo.

25:47I use Smartsheet for like campaign management, project management. And they happen to be based out of where I'm from. I was wanting to move home from New York. And then I got reached out. They, Smartsheet wanted to start selling and kind of marketing to the marketer. So they started hiring what they called solutions, what they call it, strategic solutions managers. So we were essentially like subject matter experts who worked with our product marketing team, sales team, and sales engineering team to help sell to people like us, essentially. So I got asked to join and create this new team at SmartGee.

26:27And I wanted to get out of New York and fashion at the time. So I was like, you know what, let's do it. So I kind of fell into it. And it was a crash course in kind of traditional B2B enterprise marketing and sales. What was the thing that surprised you the most when you made that jump? The like over fixation on the marketing versus sales process. It's still to this day kind of blows my mind to like attribution comp, like who gets credit for what it's, there's so much infighting on like, cause at the end of the day, you're fighting over the money that comes in. I get it. But, um, yeah, I think that was still to this day shocks me.

27:12So it's kind of the brand versus demand conversation, but like including the sales team. Yeah, it's an interesting world. That's for sure. Tell me about a time when you were, you know, whether it was at Smartsheet or Typeform, where you were actually able to kind of bring a unique perspective because of your background in consumer. And maybe how did that impact a really cool campaign you were able to bring to life or a project that wouldn't have otherwise been thought of? Yeah, I mean, I think I do. I'm lucky at Typeform. my it's a before my time even it was a very kind of brand centric company for b2b sass i think maybe in the first 10 years brand was equated to design and i think brand is so much more than just the visual design of things so trying to kind of expand the scope of brand but so most of what i touch most of the campaigns i've run there is some sort of inspiration or pull from my past i think

28:10we just did a campaign called get real which is kind of a hybrid research in public content slash brand campaign it's essentially us doing a survey and a report using our own product and i think the b2c kind of inspiration or where i drew from was again i tell my team to like just be out there in the world draw inspiration from things other than competitors other than this industry in this space and that campaign in particular i was inspired by reality tv um so in the product we have this thing called video questions and video answers so essentially in a typical like survey rather than like a drop down menu you can respond like if i was asking like tomorrow what do you think about x y and z you could click respond via text or respond via video and so we wanted to highlight this video feature because it's a premium feature you need to pay more for it and one day I was just you know kind of like couch rotting watching reality tv and notice like across all reality shows there's these things called confessionals where the person sits on a couch and talks to the camera and it's where they're the most honest the most real and I was like wait let's just do a survey about like a somewhat polarizing topic and then get people like to optionally respond to some of the questions that are more polarizing on video just like a confessional so it's not necessarily like a b2c example but it's something that i don't think most b2b people would think to draw inspiration from like i literally went to our leadership team and then our all hands our whole company and had a pitch slide that had different characters, screenshots from like Survivor, Real Housewives, Love Island, like, and kind of posed the question, like, what do all of these things have in common?

30:04It was they're responding to a video, like in being in the getting real. So yeah, I think that was inspired, not from B2C, but from the real world. But those are the things that B2C companies look at for inspiration, typically. Absolutely. I love that example. And you don't know this about me, because we have just met, but I'm a big Survivor fan. So anything, yeah, you see reality TV, I'm like, my ears are perked. Same here. That's fun. I think it's great though, because I do think B2B marketing can be really stressful. It is stressful. It's overwhelming. And so when you're off, when you're not working, we do tend to just like completely turn off and be like, I'm just in my real life now.

30:42But I've noticed to your point, this whole conversation, I think if you can stay on in all of those moments and just let all that inspiration kind of flow through you, it actually makes your day job a little easier and more fun, I think. Yeah, absolutely. My notes app is full of things that are based off observations or ideas that are stemming from like the real, my real life. Exactly. All right. So let's bring it all together. I think we've talked about a lot of great examples from your career. You've worked across so many different industries, different buyers, different brand playbooks, in your opinion, and this could even just be from the brands that you love personally, what do the best brands have in common?

31:22Things that we could steal as we're building our own brands. I think the best brands, what they have in common is like a focus and appreciation for creativity, but in like a very singular point of view, like the best brands, and then you've seen things on LinkedIn probably, where it's like, you can recognize this from one word or one silhouetted image. if they've been so consistent and so creative and haven't like wavered too much to cater to like the changes of the world or the changes of the market or what have you. So consistency and creativity, I think for me as a brand marketer tend to kind of rise to the top.

32:04I love that. Oh, so we like to end all of our podcasts with one final question, which is what's one marketing hill that you would die on? Um, I'm kind of going to double down on what I just answered and say that like the two most important things that a marketer should have or be good at, especially in this like AI slop that we're surrounded by is either recognizing or having creativity and then also having taste. Ooh. I think taste is important more so than ever because I use AI myself, but I think if you don't have good taste or you're not very discerning, you're the kind of person that just kind of uses the first output or you don't know how to like decipher if what the output you're getting is good.

32:52So I think taste is kind of rising to the top as a trait. It's one of those hard things to even talk about because it always sounds like narcissistic. If you're like, I'm trying to think of like in an interview, I could never be like, I just have really good taste, so you should hire me. But I do think it's important and I think you can tell when someone has good taste by what they're putting forward. I love that. I would agree with that. I mean, personally, my biggest takeaway from today's conversation is it's OK for me to watch more episodes of Survivor because it might infiltrate my work as well.

33:23Exactly. This was amazing. If people want to learn more about you, learn more about Typeform, where should they go? Well, Typeform, go to the website, typeform.com. And for me, pretty much just LinkedIn. All right. Thanks so much for joining us today. This is fun. Thank you. Thanks so much for listening. Keep tuning in to hear more great insights from the coolest marketers from around the world. If you haven't already, make sure to subscribe and follow the Marketing Millennials podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you hear, I would greatly appreciate you giving us a five-star rating.

34:03It helps bring more marketers into our community.