How to Win with Zero Click Content with Amanda Natividad, VP Marketing at SparkToro | Ep. 336

0:00Yes, we are back with another episode of Mark Millenials and I'm excited about this episode today because it's with my good friend Amanda Natividad, one of the best at turning audience insights into repeatable content. We talked about why most marketers feel stuck, how to find content ideas that actually hit, and how shifting your mindset can unlock endless stuff to talk about. This was a great conversation and Amanda, it was full of insights and excited for you to listen. So let's jump in. Welcome to the Marketing Millennials, the no BS marketing podcast. I'm Daniel Murray and join me for unfiltered conversations with the brains behind marketing's coolest companies.

0:47The one request I tell our guests, stories or it didn't happen. Get ready to turn the f*** up.

1:22back. So I am the VP of marketing at audience research startup, SparkToro. You might know me as a marketing person on LinkedIn and Twitter slash X, but hopefully you also know me from originating the concept of zero click marketing or zero click content. So maybe I'll kind of pause there. No, I love it. I mean, I feel like so many people are using the term zero click marketing and it all came from you which is like so funny like i see talks all over that's a zero click marketing and i always be like yep that's amanda amanda coined in um so it's like on top of mind for me so excited to get talking i know the one topic i want to start getting to and i i think um one of the most important things i think in marketing is like this concept of taste um i I think like it's like you need to have it to create good, good marketing.

2:19So how do you start developing taste? Like where does that start from? I think it really comes from a lot of practice in both curation and creation. Like I think it just comes from doing the reps in reading, consuming, you know, watching what you like, you know, and then trying to even just asking yourself, like, why do I like this? Why do I think this looks cool? Why do I think this is funny? You know, and then trying to create some of your own stuff. Like, I feel like one way to go about it is to like maybe create a newsletter, for instance. Like maybe you curate, you know, X amount of topics or X amount of pieces of content in Y topic, you know?

3:02I mean, maybe I'll even pose the question back to you, right? Because for marketing millennials, you've built up this massive brand on really tapping into how marketers are feeling at a given time. And that takes taste. And I'm sure you've had a couple of whiffs too, where you post a meme or something, but it doesn't quite hit. How do you know? I think it's a mixture of experience and being in the weeds versus staying in tune to like what's culturally relevant and what people like what is happening on social. So I think like, and that goes beyond like your space. And I think that's where people get stuck too.

3:50It's like, you gotta be seeing what like brands and other industries, what influencers are doing, what other accounts are doing and connecting. The key is like original ideas for me is like taking two things, you know, and things that are relevant and connecting to, or like two separate ideas together. out there. So I think like it comes from what you said in the beginning. I think consumption is like the biggest like thing where I think people like you have to be a good consumer to be a good producer in my book. Yeah. You have to have good inputs, right? You have to have good inputs in order to create good output.

4:30And I think what you're saying too, is I think that really hits the nail on the head. The notion of having to be in the weeds, you know, knowing what's going on, Like that comes first and the whole tapping into pop culture or whatever that comes second. It's hard to develop taste if you don't have expertise, especially in B2B marketing. Like if you don't have like, if you don't understand what it's like to be in that your audience shoes or be like understand your audience in a deeper level and taking time to understand the conversations they're having. like where they're showing up how they want to show up like their pain points like you already like lost the battle i think you can't add sprinkle and culture if because like what really is working is like the the hook is what's working it's not really like the image is just like the whatever you're doing the the other stuff that you're adding to it is secondary where you if you're embedding culture or you're embedding what's actually happening in marketing.

5:38It's really like starting from the hook and then finding what works with the hook. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's, yeah. And I think the biggest thing for that hook is like, it needs to be very simple. Like people need to see themselves in it. Can I see myself in that pain point? Can I see myself in that situation, that sort of thing. And I think also what people like one, one way really to develop taste, I think is to just ask yourself some critical thinking questions as you consume content yourself. Like when you're consuming the content from people, brands, whatever that you like, ask yourself why you like it.

6:22Like ask yourself, why is it relatable? Like specifically, why is it relatable? What do you think is smart about it? If it's that it's smart, why do you think it's funny? Like if it's funny, why is it? Is it because it's absurdist or is it because it's revealing an emotional truth? Like, I think really asking yourself those things will help a lot because, you know, I mean, I'll, I even like just in conversation, when I talk to people when I'm like, Oh, why do you like that show? Or why do you like that movie? Even sometimes they'll be like i don't know i just like it like that's not good enough you know it's like well like what is it about it like is it like what speaks to you and what speaks to a need or an un kind of an unnamed feeling that you might have i think i want to go because you like you there's there's there's taste and then like you understanding the conversation on the field and then creating something original that like what you did with zero click like what was on the field at the time was everybody was talking about the spooky dark social for a long time like that was on the field but like no but it was like very like hard to understand from like a creating point of view like a creation point of view so like how did you like like think about like the zero click marketing like how did that like because you understood what was on the field and then you created something new.

7:47So like, what is like the process of making, coining the term and then like making it a conversation in, in the marketing world? Oh yeah, that's a good question. So I coined, I coined the phrase zero click content first. This was, this was about three years ago now, I think. And this was at a point in time where I was most focused on growing my social accounts pretty aggressively. So at this point, I think I had grown my Twitter following to 100 ,000 followers. And then at the time, my LinkedIn account was coming up on like 30 or 40 ,000 followers, maybe. And I think it was just, I remember saying it in conversation with my colleague slash boss, Rand Fishkin.

8:37We were talking just about content or social content in general, and about like what makes content successful and what doesn't. And I was thinking about when I create content online, like how do I kind of what's my heuristic for creating what I think is valuable? And I just sort of reflexively said like, oh, you know, it needs to have zero click value. And he was like, what? Like his ears perked up and he was like, say more. And I was like, oh, you know, like it just needs to be native to platform, standalone value where, you know, there isn't really additional context that is needed, but it's always better if you do get that context where it immediately makes sense in the medium, in the format that it's in.

9:22He was like, oh, he's like, I think you need to blog about this. And I remember for a moment, I was like, I don't know. I think everybody knows this. And he was like, no blog about it. So I did. And I think what was interesting was just that it really did capture this moment in time where people were like, oh, I know exactly what that is. I know exactly what she's talking about. And I feel like it's one of those things that because it really, it entered that marketing zeitgeist in that, in such a big way, I do feel like it's crossing over to this point where kind of nobody knows, people are starting to wonder where it originated.

9:59You know, where I think people are, it's, it's just kind of like really, what's the word I'm looking for is really infiltrated our marketing vocabulary that it's starting to feel like one of those things that people feel like oh that's been around for a while but it's still pretty new yeah i mean i think yeah just like a it's like a thing that was happening that didn't really have like a term put on it like people knew that like like people were saying like you could create entertaining content you could do this but like nobody really but it also connects back to like i think what we can talk about a little bit too in this conversation but like i think the struggle is like connecting what people say to like how you can say it back to like leadership because like marketing let's say like five years ago like the click it was important like that's how you track things that's like how you did things like it's like i need to get the kick click i need to sell the click i need to post links on social because i want the click and like i'm going to repurpose a webinar for the click and like now like when you need to explain to executives like like that's not how the world works anymore like people this is how you consume new people consume content like it's it sparks something in um for people who want to create like let's say the zero click content, like what is the conversation of like how to make correct KPIs for something that like doesn't like have initial click, for example?

11:36Right. Like how do you create KPIs when there's no click to track? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so that's actually a very big question because this goes back to why is this happening? You know, like why has there been this rise in zero click marketing? Why is it more effective? And it's because of, it's a lot of things at play, right? Like one is the social media networks will suppress your reach if you put in a link, right? Twitter confirmed this when they said, when Elon Musk acquired that platform and then showed the algorithm and showed that posts with links are coded as definite spam vector, right?

12:20It's already suppressed there. Um, LinkedIn has said before, we don't deprioritize posts with links, but we prioritize posts that don't have links. So that's like, so you penalize posts with links. And then very recently, Meta has even shown in one of their transparency reports that virtually all Facebook posts that get reach had don't have a link. They said it was 97.3 % of posts, that are surfaced a lot don't have links. And some people have even shown or taken screenshots, which shows in their console that like, your post has a link, you might want to rethink that. I mean, that's not the exact verbiage.

13:04And you can look this up in a Social Media Today article. But now it's advising, like Meta is actually advising people to not put posts in their captions, but rather to put it like in the follow-up comment to their post, right? So the social platforms are kind of starting to admit to this. And what I'll say here is, this isn't even the rest of the argument, but what I'll say already here is, well, if you know your link is going to suppress the post, then you already know that fewer people are going to see it. So what's the point? You know, like it's why be so insistent on tracking your post, tracking those clicks when you're going to kill your reach anyway.

13:49The other reason is the issue of dark social, where we have found, we did this research in SparkToro like last year, which we found that most of the social networks will hide full referral strings, which means that even if you do get a click, then let's say you get a click from TikTok, then that traffic is going to be marked as direct, which means you wouldn't even see the click anyway. And that's 100 % of links clicked from TikTok show as direct traffic. And that is the case with Slack, WhatsApp, Mastodon, 100 % of that is hidden. And then some percentage of Facebook Messenger, Instagram, and LinkedIn referral traffic, some portion of that will be marked as direct traffic.

14:40So all that to say is if you're insistent on posting links and all your social content, you're going to kill your reach. And even if you do get clicks, you're not going to see it. So what I'll say now is that's where we're going to see this return to some of those early digital era KPIs of impressions. I test this all the time in LinkedIn, for instance. I know that if I have a post without a link, I'm going to get at least three times, if not nine times the reach compared to when I do put a link in the post. So I say optimize for your posts to get seen, optimize to get seen, and then make sure that you're driving home value to your prospects, to your customers, so that over time, they'll remember you, they'll trust you, and then they'll convert when they're ready to buy.

15:41I think one thing you're really big on too, like going even deeper into this conversation is like, um, qualitative, like metrics, like you can track and like, let's say like, I want to launch like LinkedIn as a channel. um i i know it has value um i know that links are getting suppressed in the algorithm but i need a way to like show my boss that linkedin is working so what are like besides like the quantitative clicks like like referral traffic from linkedin that does happen what are of ways qualitative, like for me to launch a new channel and start tracking some other points of reference? So this kind of goes back to taste, actually, because I think if you have good taste and you're creating good content, those will be your qualitative KPIs.

16:37So for instance, a couple of heuristics that might be helpful for this is think about how much mileage can you get out of a blog post? You know, like if you have this like thousand word blog post, can you repurpose that into like three or five pieces of LinkedIn content? If you can't, right? If you're like, I have nothing here. I only have like this one post. Maybe it's not the best post, you know, but if you're saying something that's really worth saying, then you should be able to say it again in a couple of different ways. So that's one. thinking about like, yeah, just thinking about that repurposing of content, usually content that is easy or relatively easy to repurpose is good.

17:27Think about how you can get more from your existing marketing programs. So maybe a webinar that you host, right? Like maybe that webinar can become a blog post or that webinar can become a bunch of different pieces of social content. Maybe you can take clips from it and post that as reels on Instagram, right? I'm just kind of spitballing ideas here. But if you're able to take some standalone pieces from the broader piece of content, then already you're getting a lot of value from what you're already creating. So I would say a big thing is really just sustainability of your operations, ability to repurpose.

18:06And then one other one, which is, I don't know how helpful this is, But one thing I like to say is quality of discussions. So like if you're posting really interesting or insightful LinkedIn content, maybe that'll give way to good discussions in the comments. You know, maybe people will be asking good questions or participate in discussion. Like that's good, right? I mean, if you're posting stuff and nobody ever replies to you, that's gotta mean something, right? That's going to mean that something's not hitting, right? But if you are regularly engaging your community and they're engaging back, that's great.

18:43Another example could be when you are hosting a webinar and you're seeing activity in the chat, like people asking questions, people repeating like, oh, that's a really good point that that speaker or that presenter raised. Those kinds of things. Are you stimulating further discussion? I love those points. I mean, when I think about content in general, I always try to like do two things i like i try to reverse engineer like like what would be the comment i want in the comment section like if i posted this so like that's the first thing and then number two i'll reverse engineer like like is this like like if i luckily i have a marketer and like and i can do this but like i would say like is this like like would i go text this to like some of my marketing friends and be excited about texting this to them or would it be like like would i get some sort of reaction whether my reaction is for them to like laugh at the piece of content or reaction to be like is that oh that's like a really interesting idea or like reverse engine from the dm or like the the slack share and like what the the ideal like comment is like is it like this so this is this post i really feel this is so me is so relatable or is like the comment you're trying to get is like is this so insightful like i never thought of it like that like zero click content is like i understand this is so me but it's also so insightful because like i never like thought about it like that so like you reverse engineer to what people want to say i think a lot of people just think about like what they're posting and not thinking about like what they're trying to like reaction they're trying to get or where do you want this piece the content to be going from the platform.

20:35Because if you're trying to get off platform, you're trying to do something like get a share, get someone to do a certain action. That's brilliant. That's exactly what it is. It's what can you post, like what reaction, what kind of comment do you want to elicit from your audience? That's everything right there, right? Because if you're posting questions like, it's National Ice Cream Day, what's your favorite flavor, right? Like, like I, that's something that is, that's easy to answer, right? It's, someone can participate really easily. So that already lowers a barrier, but why would someone want to comment that?

21:15You know, like, are they going to win some ice cream? Like, I don't think anyone wants to really say that unless there's a good reason to participate, you know? So then it's thinking about like, well, what are the reasons that people amplify content? And by amplify, I mean, like comment or reshare. Right. And I think some, like though the reasons for amplification tend to be around some kind of version of status signaling, some version of it, like signaling you're in an in-group, signaling that, oh, I wish I said this, like this really like captures what I'm feeling or signals like, oh, this was so smart.

22:01I have to share this with my network because this is so insightful. I think it is, it has to do with status because you want to like show like a group of people, like if I'm going to share an insightful post, like in a Slack channel, like I want to be the one to share the idea to the marketing team to try this out like that could be one thing you're trying to do or like i want to share this to the marketing team too because i want to show i'm in and i'm funny like i want to show like the marketing team i'm funny like this is hilarious like whatever you're trying to do but the people are trying to like have some status with their friends or or um colleagues or whatever they're trying to do so like like even like and it also depends on the platform you're on right like Instagram for example like 80 to 90 percent of like the the activity is happening in the DMs and stories so like creating content on Instagram is to try and get someone to click share versus like or like comment like for me at least where like LinkedIn like kind of that but it's like you can't really track a like a share to like as well as like Instagram because Instagram you can click like reshares but you can't click like this person sharing the post so like for me it's more like can i elicit a comment can i elicit a like could i listen a screenshot on here and how do i think about that so like those are the things you got to think about different and platform wise too and when you're tackling the platform like what are those things you're trying to elicit qualitatively and quantitatively like um and like different reactions tell you different things like so um i totally agree upon what you said about like the status and different things but also like i think one thing is really hard to do which i want to get your opinion on is like how do you align like everybody of like what taste is like you know what i mean like i we should be doing this type of content like because like sometimes it's really hard internally to like get people to say like yeah we should be creating like zero click content like coming up with a new term going hard that way or we should be doing this type of content which is like very thought leadership, very like taking a stance on something.

24:29Like how do you get people to like internally align on this? I would say come up with an agreed upon aspirational ideal customer. So like, ideally, if you can show a real example, like maybe your, I like your, your aspirational ideal customer, let's say this is B2B, maybe that person is like Sam Altman. I'm just going to say this, right? Like maybe that's your aspirational, like ideal customer. Then maybe share whenever Sam Altman amplifies something and say like, how do we get Sam Altman to share our stuff? Right? That's just an example, right? And so that'll help you start thinking about like, Like, well, what does that aspirational customer share?

25:19What do they tend to comment on? What do they tend to reshare? You know, and that helps you think, that helps the team align behind, oh, that's the kind of person we're going after. Like, oh, they only share stuff like in their industry. Okay, that's fine. But now we know. You know, I think like identifying some of those people or just even just one and then clearly stating why they amplify the things they do in a way that is you know easy to agree with right like oh clearly they do this right and then orienting your content creation or curation around that yeah i think the ultimate goal is like who is this content for because like the like content is targeting in the the sense and like the way algorithms are going um it's getting even more and more content is targeting so like if you're trying to like have that aspirational person like you need to create that type of content and then that's a great way to like talk internally to like a boss like hey our goal is to reach these type of people like we need to create if we want to reach these type of people we have to create this type of content because this is what this type of people this type of audience cares about and then like it's an easier conversation than than just going in straight saying like i think we need thought leadership and that's it like it's a it's better to like work backwards from like the company goal is to get more into like s s m b type people and then you work back like what is what type of s and be type people and then go into, go deeper and do what their pain points and then like start writing content for that.

27:09Yeah. And I'll give you a specific example. Like, you know, when I was earlier on in growing my Twitter account, that was something I thought of. Like I, you know, I, I posted and I still post, you know, about, um, my, my personal expertise and experience in organic marketing. And, you know, I, it was never my intention or my goal to be the best, right? Or to be like, I post the best insights in marketing because I don't and I would never. And when Ran Fishkin followed me back, that sort of helped me recalibrate, like think about, oh wait, because you know, when someone you really admire follows you back or pays attention to you, you're kind of like, oh, why?

27:56And so that had me thinking like, well, well, why would Rand Fishkin, you know, the person who invented domain authority, SEO, marketing expert, why would he follow me back? And it's not because he needs marketing advice, right? Like he knows how to do it. Someone like that would follow me because they're curious about my approach or the things that I've done that work, the things that I'm currently testing, right? The things that you can really speak to because you're the one who lived it. that's one way to look at it right so think about it as like who's your aspirational customer and then what are the things you can say that one align with their interests or values but two that only you are uniquely positioned to be able to say i i love that i think like people that you want the desirable audience are not following you not like a lot of people have enough knowledge they just want to acquire something like they're trying acquire something new when they're following you or get some sort of something out of you so whether like like i know like the for the marketing millennials my goal at least on social is always like i want to be like always has been like a break in the feed and like hyping up out of other marketers and that's like what i think about for social so like i want to create like funny like like content that's relatable that it feels like a break in like a linkedin feed that's like would get shared to in a slack feed that people are laughing at where like some people's goals are different and that's why i think like every like that's why there's different approaches to social and different approaches work and i like i like the way you the way you thought about social um i want to know like what is like your like personal filter of like when looking at like um a new idea or like an a new thing to execute like what is like the filter that goes through amanda's head like before you of a new idea i mean it's sort of just a vibe check like it is mostly that like i will depending on what it is right like i will look at i'll check i might check the keyword volume on it you know like if it's a broader topic that i can be like are people searching for this?

30:19Like, I'll probably look that up. So that informs it somewhat. But the other piece is, it's mostly just, does this make my brain light up? You know, like, is this interesting to me? Is this novel to me? Can I put a new spin on this in some way? You know, like, or it's even like does this satiate a rant that I have you know like it's it's so it's very much vibe based which is probably not that helpful but no I like I I do I do think I think but I think that's like because you've developed taste over like the years because I think some people go down like the rant based type topic but nobody cares about that certain topic and that's why it's not getting views or they're not formatting it in the right way like that's the two when i'm looking at a post and then like someone asked me like why it's not succeeding usually it's either that like they're writing a personal journal like they think their idea is like novel and it's like not that novel or it's like you're not formulating it in a way that's simple enough to digest with your your audience and like those are the two things that are like not but i think you've developed the taste of like you know like how to write a post like that will get attention um and then like you also know like if you're thinking about this there's probably other people thinking about it as well.

31:57Yeah, that too. Yeah. And you know, the other thing with like keyword research is, you know, it helps you to figure out like, are people in general searching for this pain point? But if you're trying to optimize for really high volume stuff, it's all going to be pretty vague. You know, like let's say in appealing to other marketers, those top keywords are going to be things like marketing strategy, how to content marketing, right? Like those are extremely broad topics. So it's like, I mean, not every piece of content you create is going to be like the definitive guide to content marketing or whatnot, you know?

32:33So it's sort of like, okay, so you have the general high volume keyword of email marketing, but so what? Like, what's your point? Like, what's interesting? What's bothering you about email marketing? What do you know that you wish most people knew? What questions do you have? Like, what do you not know that you want to find out can you explore that i think that's great i also think that like i mean the broadest term stuff obviously is going to get the most reach in the sense but that this is necessarily doesn't mean like those are like the people who are searching that term is like exactly like who you're trying to reach with your piece of content like like if you go more like niche of like um like if it's a how-to piece and it's like more niche of like how to use ai and this and that in the piece of content then you're like broadening it niching it down niching it down niching it down or like adding certain words into it so i think there's those ways of doing it but also like i do agree like if you're not excited and passionate about writing that piece of content like why are you expecting someone else to be passionate enough to like read that piece of content a hundred percent like if you can't be bothered to like engage with it fully while you're writing it why should anyone read it i mean i always think about that it's like if i'm bored at writing this like i can't put this out there like if i'm bored writing it like why would i why would i like do that like it's not gonna serve me well yeah i one question too like how do you decide like whether something like people like you like to have like benchmark data before doing things like like how do you decide to do things without like having like data to like back it or like having like a standard for like this is this is what good looks like well sometimes you can google it right you You can kind of, you can like look up some industry standards and have like a very general baseline for things.

34:40But then from there, I would say like, just test it, like just do it, you know, like, like create a lightweight version of it that you can test sooner rather than later so that you could at least get to some kind of minimum viable product or version of what you really ultimately want to be doing. You know, so like, let's say you really want your company to start a weekly newsletter, right and you're not sure if you can get buy-in you're not sure if you'll be allowed to email the your database that often right I would say like we'll just just do one like get buy-in for one and then see how that goes and then get buy-in for the second one you know it's like you can I think something that people might forget or just or just you know sometimes people get like nervous by, right, is people forget that you can always just stop.

35:35You can stop doing the thing. You know, like I know you can't undo. So like, you know, don't be crazy. But like, if something isn't working, then just stop and do something else. You know, the point really is like, you got to be doing something, you know, and, you know, it's obviously like, not everyone's going to get buy-in for big budget projects or like major campaigns. That's fine. But think about like, what's the, what's the one-off version of what you want to do? How do you get buy-in for that? And then how can you like, think of some reasonable KPIs, a good KPIs that you think you can accomplish, whether that's like an open rate, whether it's amount of shares, amount of comments, or, you know, results in like contacts or demos booked, you know, like think about like, think about those things, right?

36:29Think about like, even if there's one KPI that you think you can move the needle on. I like that. Is there an example where you like, so people can relate to like, where you like had an idea, you went for it. it like didn't like pan out but like you still took like that bad and like you learned something from that um that you could share i was trying to this one this one's a maybe though i don't know this isn't a like i'm not doing this anymore but this one's like yellow light right i was trying to get into a regular a more regular cadence of posting more blog posts or publishing more posts and for some of them I was just doing shorter posts like short blog posts like 600 to 700 words of like kind of micro ideas and they did okay you know like they you know they still got some engagement people shared it some people liked it right but are they our top 10 even 15 most viewed blog posts this year?

37:31No. You know, so, so it's sort of like on one hand, should I, should I keep doing it? Well, yeah, I mean, I should keep blogging, right? People are engaging with it. But on the other hand, if it's not top performing content, and if there is something else that I should be doing with my time that I know will move the needle on something, then maybe I shouldn't be doing it. So I think this is one that's like in between, but I'm putting it at like a yellow light in that if I have other stuff that I should really be doing, then that small blog post is going to fall to the wayside. I think, I mean, I think it's a good way to think about it in marketing too, is like the way like red, yellow, green of like, what are some like high impact thing, low effort, high impact thing, high effort, like medium impact thing, low effort, medium impact, like and then like just weigh it out and then decide like okay like okay short blog post they might have this little uplift but if i decide to like produce linkedin content this like linkedin content we see x amount more like so i'm just going to double down on like posting a linkedin post every week instead of like doing that i think especially with smaller marketing teams which they could relate it's like it is trade-offs um like it's better to do the thing that's working than do the the thing that might work half like half effort um like because you can't give full effort into the that thing because you have so many other things so i like like weighing it out like we still could do this but like if something else comes up let's do something else yeah so i think that's a good way to think about it lastly i want to ask you is like when i asked you this last podcast but like what is a marketing hill you would die on oh a marketing hill i would die on um okay a marketing hill i will die on is nobody cares about the frequency of your marketing campaigns as much as you do so if you have to make a trade-off of should I focus a little bit more on making this campaign better or should I just get it out the door I think you should focus on making it a little bit better and this is and I'm saying this because every day there is more content on the web than there ever has been before.

40:13You know, we are saturating attention everywhere. And it doesn't, I just don't think it's worth it to just check off the box. Like we did the campaign today because it's Wednesday. Like that is just so rarely going to be worth it. Rather than if you just put an extra amount of like time or attention or some personalization, like something that makes better and then holding off a day, even if you need to, that's always going to be better. So I'm going to say like, in essence, go the extra mile, like just push yourself a little bit harder to make something better and it's going to be more worth it.

40:53Yeah. I always had, I've always had this like thought and I haven't like been able to put it into like terms yet, but I always like think about like people always think of like customer LTV and I think about like audience LTV um and the way I think about like negative signal burns audience and like you put you put out more and more things you're just turning off people that could have been eventual buyers or could have been people in your audience so if you like like every time you put a basic content doesn't mean that's a positive signal into like the world of your brand and your reputation and like your trust to the audience so like like i don't think people think enough of like am i retaining like my audience that would buy in the future as much as they think of like retaining people that is in their like existing customer base but i i think about it all the time like if i put out this piece of content is if i'm gonna lose potential like audience, like that LTV of my audience is going to go down, like, like, or I'm going to lose it.

42:02That person is never going to read my stuff again because I put out something that doesn't, isn't as good or doesn't have as much depth or doesn't have a much tone or like the tone is off or cause I was lazy at putting that piece of content out. So I've been thinking about that a lot. And I think a lot of people don't think about negative signal when they put out content. that's really good yeah that's really well said and i'll even add to that that you know if you're putting out content that's not very good you're also going to hurt yourself algorithmically because you put out something mediocre not a lot of people engage with it and you kind of like keep doing this you know like look everyone whiffs sometimes and that's fine but if you are just trying to fill a quota and as such you end up just posting some mediocre stuff and people don't engage with it, that's sending signals to the algorithm that your content isn't going to be worth serving up.