MIT's Social Media Playbook, with Jenny Fowler, Director of Social Media Strategy @ MIT | Ep. 438

0:01Welcome to the Marketing Millennials, the no BS marketing podcast. I'm Daniel Murray and join me for unfiltered conversations with the brains behind marketing's coolest companies. The one request I tell our guests, stories or it didn't happen. Get ready to turn the f*** up. We are back with another episode of the Market Millennials podcast. I have Jenny on the podcast. She's the director of social media strategy at MIT. Yes, the MIT. I'm excited to chat. We're going to talk all things organic social. MIT has one of the biggest followings out there when it comes to in the education space. So I'm excited to talk about how they grew, what they're doing right now, what's the strategy, and we'll dig in.

0:59But Jenny, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me, Danielle. It's great to be here. Could you give a little background? Like, how did you get into marketing? How did you get into social media? Yeah. I mean, I think like a lot of social media managers, I just kind of like accidentally, accidentally found myself in social. I think I started as a TV journalist. So, you know, TV reporter. So like a lot of social media managers, I have a journalism degree. and for various reasons left the business. But I think I still loved storytelling and got into editorial and digital editorial content strategy.

1:46And right around that time in the early 2000s when people got into the digital space, that's when social media was really coming to rise. And I thought, I think in those positions, those folks also took on like the you know the social media channels early on but the thing is I think you know the responsibilities of managing social media grew and so yeah like somehow like I said if I can do that full time with 100 % of my or 100 % of my job I think I would want to do that and you know sure enough this position opened way back when and yeah 10 years later here I am um 10 years in social media is like um feels like a lifetime in social media yeah no you've seen so much 10 here yeah it's just 10 years here overall I think you know if you really if I want to like age myself like I've been doing it for like more than 20 years can you believe that's amazing though because you've seen the changes of all platforms everything um but I want to talk about MIT so MIT you've grown the following has grown to millions across x Facebook LinkedIn Instagram and most of it almost all of it came organic so how did that happened and when did you realize it was working at this scale um i think so you know really at its base level like we just leaned into what our community wanted to see on our social media channels right and um i always say an engagement or a like or a share is like a vote it's like instant feedback saying, I, I like this content.

3:45I want to see more of this content. And so like, as we got more engagement, you know, we would really hone in on like, what was about, what was it about this post that got so much attention or so many likes? And we just try to do more of it, right? Like it's, it's lean into what your community wants. And, um, and sure enough, like it, you know, it's, I always say social media, organic social media is a marathon, right? You can't, it's not a fast process. Growing community takes time. Building relationships take time. Like Danielle, can you like, and all of the relate, like the strong relationships or friendships you have, they've probably like grown over time.

4:32Right. Like, and it's, it's the same thing and social media so um and you know and that just started to resonate and soon we just saw um more people who kind of leaned in and said yeah i like what this they're doing i like i want to be a part of this community and yeah now we have like more than like seven million right now total followers on all of our active channels that's amazing especially in like the space you're in which is very competitive very so many schools yeah it's a hard it's a hard it's a hard market also to figure out the balance between what people want what people need there's so many stakeholders that you're talking to it's not only like students there's faculty there's like prospective students there's alumni there's such a big yeah and it's just and it's global like our audience is global Like it's it's a little bit different, I guess, from a lot like, you know, we've got lots of department labs and centers.

5:38So alumni has their channels and they strictly serve alumni. Right. And then the division of student life or student admin admits, they have their own channels. And so like they have very specific audiences. But like you said, like I have a global audience. I serve all those audiences. And so I, you know, I always say that MIT's branding always feels a little bit like a like a B to C, you know, B to C rather than just like prospective students or just higher ed because it's such a global brand. And so, yeah, like I always try to keep in mind that they're into all of the things that go on at MIT.

6:25So that's what we try to share. So I have a question, too, because I know like that number is 7 million. And people mistake that normally for community when they think of like social media following. A lot of people think following equals community. but as you know like some are some could be bots some could be haters some could be haters some could be people just trying to get scoop on the next media story oh totally yeah so how do you find like the real community that's lying inside that like seven million number i know that they're there because, um, I do look at the comments. I do click to see who they are.

7:14You know, I do read like who, who, you know, who said this, you know, and then I go to see on their profile, like, oh, it's this, you know, so I know that there actually are real people engaging with us. And, um, especially, you know, like there are certain things where I know we know it's alumni, They're commenting and they'll say, oh, I remember when my memory is in the student center. So just to see that there's that sort of engagement going on, you get a sense that your people are there. Right. Are all seven million followers across all of these channels like people? No. I mean, do they all like you said, do they all like us?

8:01Like, no, you know, but they're interested in us. Like, you know, like just like every community, there's you have your lurkers, you have your very chatty, engaged folk. You have the people that are cynics, but that makes up your entire community. Right. And I like us or hate us. They're interested in us. So, you know, which is something that I think every community has. Right. And yeah, and just to see that engagement. And I do check to see. So there are a lot of real people there. I want to go into, I know you wrote a book on social media. Yeah. I want to go into, I know you have six Ms in that book.

8:51Yes. We can go down to the six Ms, but I want to know which one do you think brands skip first in your six Ms framework? Okay, so there's like, there's mission, messaging, management, metrics, monitoring, and medium. Which one do I think that they skipped, skipped the most? Sometimes I think they skip all of them, Daniel, and just go right to posting. um but like i think i think the critical one maybe now might be like medium and what i mean by medium is you know it's medium is like the singular of media right um so medium by medium i mean which platform and i feel like everyone thinks that they need to be on every platform right and they're just sharing the same content on every platform.

9:52And I often tell people, if you're sharing the same thing the same way on every platform, you're not doing it right. You're doing it wrong. Right. So I think rather than being all of the spaces, where is your audience? Like be in one place and do it above, like do it exceptionally, like, you know, be in one platform and make sure that you are kicking ass in that platform. Um, and that will allow you to cut the noise. So I think sometimes that, that, you know, select the right medium piece, I think maybe gets skipped a lot. I mean, I agree. I also think that like this pressure above, like, why aren't you on Facebook?

10:38why aren't you in this why aren't you that and then um and that leads like people forget that law of social media teams one person and they can't if they're gonna do every and it takes like one person to do one channel really great um like oh my gosh yeah if you're doing it a hundred percent and going hard on that channel it takes one person because there's like you said there's all those m's you were talking about you need to have and and you have to tailor it for that platform and different types of audiences that you have are on that platform and they expect certain type of content on that platform so it's way different than each platform i do think you could take posts remix them format wise to if it worked on another platform but that that's still a lot of work to like change it reformat it resize it put it on another platform in the way that platform once that whether so i think i totally understand like the pressure from above but also like if you're going to win you have to be dominating one platform first then go the other then get another one yeah and i think that's right like i think dominating is the right where like you have to be so good at it you know like mediocrity online is not going to get you anywhere.

12:00Right. So in a lot of these things I mentioned, everything, like everything you just kind of said, and I do address and mention in my book, which is organic social media, how to build flourishing communities online. And I give like practical like guidance on how to have these conversations with leadership when they're giving you pressure to open, like whatever the new shiny platform is, you know, to, you know, to kind of lead with data and be realistic. And one thing that I learned after several, like several years into this career is like, you're constantly educating, you're constantly educating, like you're educating people on like, you know, what the platforms do, you're educating people on how they act, like you're educating people on what type of content is appropriate, you know, for, um, for each platform.

13:04And the thing is, it's like, I think a lot of people in decision-making positions are non-digital natives. Um, and they're the ones making decisions and they're the ones we're reporting to. So you can't say like, You can't put a PDF in, you know, Instagram, stupid. Like you can't address it like that. You need to have like some kooth and, you know, but also you do need to do constant education. So that's part of the job. And I do kind of give advice and some guidance about that in my book. I love that. I think, I mean, I love that you said, I mean, it all stems. you're educating you work for an education bread that you need to educate fat people about what you're doing and you need to educate your audience on what they are doing so it's all odd and mark half the marketer's job is or like social job is is dealing with that internal education mess behind the scenes um if you didn't have the if you didn't have to deal with that mess the job would be you would have way more time to do a lot of other things but that mess is what holds up a lot of processes that oh my gosh yeah the cognitive load that it takes to constantly be defining things as i say you know talk about it i'm like a real that's a vertical video on instagram um prefers this kind of length and you know but you get what i'm saying yeah i I also think, I mean, going through the M's that you just said, and I think what a lot of people forget, there's like social media is kind of split into two things where it's the social part, which is the community, the monitoring, that part, and then the media, which is like the posting, the content creation and stuff like that.

15:09You said at the beginning of this book, I mean, when I asked you about the community, you were talking about, you read all these comments and stuff like that. Like, what is the split that social media people should have with, like, the social and media part? And how much time should you dedicate to, like, the responding to comments, the monitoring trends, monitoring what community is saying? What's your split look like? that's that's an interesting question and and it's interesting because that like i think what you're talking about is sort of the also the management piece like i always say the management is where you separate the amateurs from the professionals because like the management is a boring part non-sexy part of it where you have to like have processes and you have to have like you know have things written down and have like a content calendar and content database and you know, that's, that's sort of like the, the, again, the non-sexy part of like social media, but I think it changes, right?

16:17Like, like, okay. Ideally you should be like doing all of that stuff a little bit every day. Right. I'm, I'm always like making sure the content goes back to the mission is centered on the messaging. I choose the right platforms, the right medium, because not every piece of content, like you said earlier, is right for all of our platforms, right? I always am going, I'm using our management systems to make sure everything is like, you know, flows naturally, is repeatable, and we don't make any, you know, if you're using a system, then the chances that you're going to make mistakes lessen, right?

16:59So, and then, you know, you're focused on the metrics. I look at the metrics like every day. I look at like how our, our, um, our posts are doing every day, like campaigns are doing every day. Like I look at the metrics every day and then like the monitoring, like the looking, looking to see what the comments are, looking to see who's sharing, looking to see who's saying what on which posts and, you know, who they're talking to. Right. And so I think it's really important to make time to just like embed everything, like just make it natural for you to like have time to do a little bit of that every day.

17:40Now, having said that, if there's like a crisis that we're under, everything gets flipped off the table and it's like monitoring all day. Right. And then things kind of fall to the wayside or if um if we're like gonna kick off something new then it's like mostly creation and then that might take more of my day um but so i think it it sort of shifts depending on where the focus is but ideally i think i should have time baked in to my day to do every step of the process i also wanted to ask you I know you've described like um algorithms as like a a set of rules like mathematical set of rules to rank content um but those rules are ever changing and they change all the time and each platform all the time and each platform those rules are changing so when you're planning content how are you like taking into account those rules um as they're changing week by week yeah so so daniel i don't i don't i just focus on what we're doing so this is like so this is what i believe about algorithms it's like you you said they are mathematical equations to get to know your behavior, right?

19:05So like algorithms are there to understand what I like, how often I post, what I'm looking for, who my audience is. So like the algorithms try to get to learn, you know, get to know you, right? But if I'm constantly changing what I do because of what I think the algorithm is doing, and trust me, I have no idea what the algorithm is doing. So if I'm constantly changing, then the algorithm doesn't get to really know my habits does that you know you know what i mean no i wanted to hear an answer like this versus like oh yeah when an algorithm changes i change my whole concept oh no i have no i i stay the course because i'm like i think it's changing because something is acting quirky you know like some my numbers are inconsistent with where they've been.

19:59So I kind of get a sense that there's a change, but I just stay the course and do the same thing and let the algorithm get to know me and our habits and our content and our audience. And after a long while, if I'm just like, our numbers actually aren't coming back to where they were, I might alter the strategy. but Daniel it takes me a long time to convince me that I'm going to change anything because of an algorithm well I think a lot I think a lot of them going going into the strategy part I think the first two m's of like the message and the mission like uh like most of it is is like having that be very solid and everything go back to going back to those two things and if things do end up those metrics end up changing it's not like you're changing your whole strategy you're just changing how the algorithm wants the post to be set but it's not like the mission or the message is changing it's just maybe a little bit of a tweak in format or maybe no tweak in other things but not you're totally doing different the pillars are still going to be the same type of content you're going to post i was just gonna say daniel like preach because like that's why i was like mission and message are so important because that's your north star right and if you have no north star then like like i always like to say like your mission your mission is like your guardrails and if you don't have guardrails you're just going to go off the rails you know um so yeah i totally agree like if you know what your mission is you're going to stay the course and maybe if you but things that are changing or your numbers are off a little bit you might try a new tactic or you might tweak a tactic right um but the strategy should stay the course only when the mission changes maybe you might consider changing the strategy so i agree 100 percent.

22:08I also, I'm interested just because MIT is such a unique, you said it's international, but there's so many departments and so many different things that MIT does research and labs and all this stuff. Like how did you refine the voice and refine the message to get close enough to get like talk for MIT because MIT is so broad and so like diverse and so international. Yeah. I guess the easy answer is like, because MIT has been here for so long, it has, it has a voice, right? I didn't create it. I just had to learn it. And I had to like adapt it for social. So just as you and I having a conversation on this podcast, we have a different, you know, we we use like, you know, marketing and social media language.

23:08And, you know, there's there's a way we're having this conversation. But if you talk to like your family or your grandmother, you would probably have a totally different tone and voice. But it's still you. Right. And so I just had to like learn it and adapt it for social media. But I will say, too, that just like any other school, like we have more than 300 department labs and centers. And they all, of course, they all have their own social media presence. And I don't like poo-poo that because like the brain and cognitive science department is going to be different than like the mechanical engineering department.

23:44They have different goals and different audiences. Right. And they can get really, really niche. But at the institute level, it is important for us to like just talk about and value like research and science and engineering at like a broad scale. So it all helps. And I think there's value in all of that. I also want you to just like break down a little bit. in social media like what is the difference between the management strategy like what is like what when you you got got up to social media strategy you were in management like what what is the difference between those two roles and what like what is a day-to-day of someone who's strategizing versus someone who's just like managing those those channels look like i love I love that question so much.

24:42So when you're like thinking about the strategy, you're thinking about like the communication strategy, because I'm part of the Institute Office of Communications, right? Or, you know, you're even if you're social media manager, whatever brand or organization is from, like that organization has goals. And it's your as the strategist, the social media strategist, it's your job to take those organizational goals and see how you can support them using the social social media channels. So you're thinking more broadly and like and, you know, how do you adapt the overall goals and how do you support them using social media?

25:27So it's like, you know, you decide on the mediums or like the platforms and what would work best. And you decide on what type of content that you would, you know, you think would help to support those goals. So you're thinking in terms of long term, like wide strategy. It's like it's more of a like a macro of you. Right. And once you have sort of an idea of like what you want, the stories you want to tell and how you want to tell it, like the formats you want to use and and the channels you want to put them out on, it's the manager's job to execute on the strategy. So if you're like, I really think that these types of stories would do well on this channel and that will like support this goal, the manager will just and then hopefully you have a content creation team.

26:20But, you know, they'll create the content and the manager will like optimize the content and actually post it on the channels. And then as a strategist, you're looking at the data, right, and all that stuff. but yeah i also want you to going even like deeper into this like and you've been you've said you've done this 20 years but for years like social media manager has or social media has got this rap of afterthought um of like why are we doing this like it's always the most challenged department ever and i don't i'm not saying every day it's everywhere that is no no no it's really common yeah if you were designing an org chart for marketing where would like social media sit in that org or chart and what what level should like that first hire be of social media if you were like dreaming your first like dream marketing org i you're right there's so many different models out there of where like social sits i really kind of feel at this point that it should could be its own entity, but work very collaboratively with like marketing and the other departments that are out there.

27:41Right. Because, you know, because it's such a big I mean, this is a billion dollar industry at this point. And and there's the organic side and then there's the paid side of social too. right which is it's its own thing um and i've said this a lot is that if i had a dream team you know there it you know it would be i mean you need like you need content creators that's the first thing but you can't just do one like so a dream team would be a director a manager and then a team of content creators but they would have they would be specialists right so we would have a vertical video specialist. We would have a live stream specialist.

28:25We would have a, maybe a, like a photography special, like that. So it's, it's like they do the content, but they very special, like it, it would be sort of platform agnostic. Like it's not like there's an Instagram specialist or a LinkedIn specialist, but the photography specialist would know how to format things for each platform. The vertical video specialist would know that there's differences between TikTok and like reels, right? But they, they would create the vertical videos. Like just like there, there would be like a copywriter. You know, these are all, there'd be graphic designer. I mean, these are all full-time jobs that like a social media manager does you know they create graphics they create videos they create captions and in order to have this beautiful social media team i would have like professionals doing each of those i i like that because i think like some people would say i would have a linkedin expert a tiktok expert but but but again it goes to your problem of like the linkedin expert still needs someone to help with carousels and short form video and that like the tiktok special is still gonna need someone to help like if they're good at it they might know how to know do the platform but doesn't mean like they're the best um short form video person out there um and it's better to hire someone who's like understands like what's a good hook and what like how do i know how to do pacing of a video and how like does it have like a rehook does it have is there a good story arc in there and I think someone might on one platform know that but I think short form video is not that much different between and that's where the strategy comes in like you would come in and be like you would say hey um on TikTok is more let's say trend-based type content and Instagram is more storytelling from a teacher's perspective like we need these two videos but they are different you come up you figure out how to create it yeah exactly exactly so like the creators would create it and then the managers would actually take the content and post like post it um in in the way that it's optimized for each channel right and the strategist thinks about how all of the moving pieces are supporting the mission and the goal and complementing each other so yeah i really i really like that structure versus so i even like find like i know linkedin really well but still like i have so many bottlenecks because i'm not the best video person out there so i have to like stay in my lane and just do text and images because i'm good at that and if i knew if i had someone who's a video expert I probably could go to 3x what I would do on LinkedIn but I don't have that so it's like a bottleneck for that channel that could be growing like 2x totally exponentially yeah yeah so I like that structure I think that's because the platforms change so much that oh my gosh yeah like it's hard to be like just have one and then you might need a new platform coming like then a new platform comes up and they you know you need to be there and but if you have like a good copywriter a good short firm you're gonna you could easily adapt to that channel um versus not adapt um going back into what we said before you said social media owned owned department um so you're like if you were thinking the first time you would you would if to give it a good stake it it needs to be someone who has like leadership level or like someone who could be at the same balance as these people because if you hire a social media manager what they're going to just go under the head of brand or the head of right right yeah you need you need someone right because if you yeah if you start low they're just going to get inside the org stuck in this department And then just swallowed, right?

32:48Yeah. I think that's right. I think it has to be like director level or if there's like, you know, if there's a CMO, maybe there's an ADP, you know, of like of social or it's and then they build from there. I think that's right. I also think that social has become, I think people understand that social has become a channel that is needed for most, like executed on for most businesses. But it's still, and I don't think people get the gravity that you're holding 7 million people and one wrong pose could go south very fast. um so in the strategist's view like what are you thinking of like what does that layers look like of i'm posting something that is that i know needs to work like work on the algorithm because this is my like not forget the algorithm but i know this works for my audience on that channel um but i also have to deal with like is it brand approved is it like mit approved is it like Like legal approved?

33:57Is it disapproved? What does that look like internally? Well, at MIT, the cool thing is like for most of the things that we create, like I do, it's like on my authority. Like I get, I am the approver. If it's something that is at a higher institute level, then yes, like I have to get my supervisor and my skip is actually the vice president. But that's only in certain, you know, in very certain exceptions. Right. But yeah, do like do I worry about like posts not hitting the right way or if we want to put something out there and it may be a little bit controversial? Do I? Yeah. So part of my job is like just to make sure things age well, you know.

34:50And so like I if if there's like a content like a topic that I'm worried about, I'm constantly punching holes in it from every different direction. Like, you know, how like how could this be trolled is is really like, you know, how you know, like when you I don't know, like a lot of parents when when they think of a kid. kid's name you're like okay like you know penny like how can penny be made fun of you know like or like i thought about that so many times yeah so like you think okay how like what's a name that like my kid will be not bullied for you know you think about that right so i like think about content like how does what are all the ways this content can get trolled i mean i i totally think about that.

35:40And so like, I feel like, um, like by doing that, it, you know, helps me to, to maybe avoid it. And also I bring in the right people to consult, you know, um, if it's like, has to be, if it's a topic about like a certain culture that I'm not familiar with, I make sure I ask the person in that culture, am I presenting this right? Can you foresee anything that we might be, you know get criticism for um you know like i'm just always looking at all the ankles no i think that's i think that's respectable like i think the kid analogy is really funny because i do think like you think about okay could they get teased like this is their initials would they get teased because the initials is their middle name like this could they be teased um totally and like that's content's like so like that's like oh if i use this word um would is someone going to come after me or is the risk low on this is it high if i say this if i do this picture with these people in it is that the risk high um or low it's it's like a constant battle of like risk analysis on posting totally and so there's always going to be haters so like we've talked about so and but it's it's talking about like there's haters and then it's like getting canceled and you the haters is fine they're getting canceled is the other the other side of it um so um i also want to ask you like what do you think is the most um overrated tactic in social right now you know when people are it's not chaotic i'm like totally you know like when like wendy's like what and they are very what is the word i'm forgetting the word but when they're very spicy when they're you know like um do you know what i'm talking about no i know exactly what you're talking about yeah it's sort of yeah it's not exactly chaotic but they are you know they like to bite back at people you know they like to like kind of like clap back at people and kind of being controversial you know um to be edgy i don't know the word is pretty much edgy i think it's like is it or chaotic or chaotic and edgy are the two like they're chaotic and edgy at the same time um which is a but that's i mean that works for wendy but not everybody's wendy so but also i i could do without it like i mean it's unneeded but like wendy's developed that in their persona not good for wendy's but like it's such a it's such a hit or miss strategy that like if you if you executed you have to like like that you'll always be known as the chaotic edgy yeah yeah you can't escape that you can't escape the words you've done that um so i also think it's like overrated you know what i mean like i i think that like there's a lot better and more effective strategy than being controversial.

38:45I agree. Lastly, like what is a marketing hill you would die on? That's a question I ask everybody in this podcast. Oh my gosh. I guess I would still say that nothing will ever be word of mouth recommendations. And that's sort of like organic commenting but like organic referrals like you'll ask do you know of a good dentist or do you know of a good you know dog walker like you're gonna take you know the word of like your friend or your relative over like anything i'm delivered in a ad a banner ad you know um so i don't know i just still I I think that's still king so maybe that's no I I think it is fair it is fair because I think especially in social like if you if you nail like mission you nail message um you nail like consistency um people are going to come and say like have a feeling for you that you're going to say, okay, when I follow MIT, you should follow them too, because I either got like educational content from them, or I got something from them that made my day or something.

40:08And that's like, if you're doing stuff like that, that's how you, you, when people forget trends, because trends get blended in with other trends. And that's the problem. Like people remember that you, maybe not everything, but maybe like you've given multiple pieces of educational content, Maybe they can't do the content, but they know that you educated them in some way or made them smile in some way or make them do something. And they recommending you because of those things and they share things because you do those. I think that will always I always like that. That's why I always optimize like content for shareability or like for people to do that, because nothing beats someone like sharing it to their story or sharing it in the DMs or share screenshotting it in there.

40:53Totally. Nothing beats that when growing your social because then the next follower is actually like another raving fan follower versus like an algorithm follower is way less valuable than like a shared DM follower. Exactly. Yeah. Lastly, where could people find your book, find you, find what you're doing and all that? Yeah, like I I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on X and I'm on Instagram. um mostly like on you'll find me as jenny lee fowler like j-e-n-n-y-l-i fowler f-o-w-l-e-r if you google that you'll find all you'll find me um my book is in anywhere books are sold like you know so amazon i feel like primarily where a lot of people go but you can find it where any like where books are sold so well if if you if you want to know the strategy behind growing having a seven million follower um brand um and how to deal with so many different stakeholders and still keep thriving then go get jenny's book it's like that's the way you do it um so thank you so much for coming on this pod and i really appreciate it yeah daniel thank you for having me.

42:16Thanks so much for listening. Keep tuning in to hear more great insights from the coolest marketers from around the world. If you haven't already, make sure to subscribe and follow the Marketing Millennials podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you hear, I would greatly appreciate you giving us a five-star rating. It helps bring more marketers into our community. Thank you.