What Hasn't Changed in Marketing with Matt Kerbel | Ep. 405

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0:01Matt Kerbel:Where do all your tasks live right now? If you don't have one answer, that's a red flag and a sign you need Wrike. Wrike is an intelligent work management platform that kills the friction, killing your speed. Visit wrike.com slash TMM to see what I mean.

0:22Matt Kerbel:Welcome to the Marketing Millennials, the no BS marketing podcast. I'm Daniel Murray and join me for unfiltered conversations with the brains behind marketing's coolest companies. The one request I tell our guests, stories or it didn't happen. Get ready to turn the f*** up. What is up, Matt?

0:49The Marketing Millennials Hosts:Welcome to the podcast. Good morning. Happy Friday. I'm so excited that we finally get to do this, Dan.

0:56Matt Kerbel:Could you give a little background of where you are now, what you're doing, so people understand where you're coming from, and then we can get into our conversation today.

1:06The Marketing Millennials Hosts:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Coming to you live from the Bay Area, specifically the beautiful Berkeley Hills in the East Bay. By day, I lead global brand strategy for Turo, which for any of you who don't know is the world's largest car sharing marketplace like Airbnb. But instead of places, we do cars. So we connect you with people who own cars and want to rent them out. And we have well over 300 ,000 cars in our marketplace around the world. And it's a way better way to rent a car. So aside from that, I'm a Canadian that ended up in California. My most important job is dad. I have a couple little awesome dudes who are graduating next week from their respective classes.

1:52The Marketing Millennials Hosts:And I love and live and breathe marketing. And I'm so excited to be here with you.

1:58Matt Kerbel:I think the secondary job is cool in the first job, but yeah, we chatted offline about this, But right now, everybody's like really sprinting towards this like AI, like AI everything. I'd have to learn everything AI. But one thing that you people aren't thinking about and you think about is like the human skills that marketers are sleeping on. So could we go into like, I know AI is important, but what are the skills that aren't being built up right now that is also important?

2:30The Marketing Millennials Hosts:Yeah, no, I appreciate you bringing it up. And here's the ironic thing. as ai becomes more and more part of our lives and jobs the soft skills the human element becomes more important right our technical skills become more i don't want to say automated but it's a you know there's there's a super charge to it that comes with ai where some things that we had to do you know by hand and by eye now can be done much faster and more efficiently by ai and And so what does that mean? That means that we have to be really, really effective at communicating ideas. We have to be really, really effective at communicating with each other.

3:11The Marketing Millennials Hosts:We have to be amazing at motivating people. We have to be amazing at storytelling. right? All of the foundational tenets of marketing and really just life writ large, that is going to become more important as people are working from anywhere, not necessarily in offices, using technology to do things for them. We'd still need to be hyper effective and creative and all the things that are never going to change no matter how much technology is thrown at us. And so, you know, a few that I think a lot about, and there's a lot of literature on them. One of them is vulnerability. If you look at any literature on vulnerable leadership, you get more out of your team, you get better retention, you know, you get higher productivity, right?

4:02The Marketing Millennials Hosts:You get all these things because people see that you're being your authentic selves and they're willing to share. And the more you know about each other and you understand one another's lived experiences, the more you can think about how you can get the best work out of each other. And also people feel safe and they generally do the best work when they're safe. So long story short, I've never been more bullish on soft skills. Of course, understanding the technical aspects of your craft are always going to be super important. And by the way, playing with AI and And getting in there and learning and doing the things and really understand how these tools can be complementary is incredibly important.

4:47The Marketing Millennials Hosts:You don't want to get left behind. But at the same time, I don't think you want to get left behind, quote unquote, on the soft skills. The more we can supercharge those, the further you're actually going, you're going to go in your career and the happier I think you're actually going to be in your life. So that's a hot take.

5:02Matt Kerbel:Yeah, I want to go a little deeper in that because I think some people might agree with the statement that, okay, soft skills are more important right now because of AI is going to take over everything. But how does one go and develop these skills? If I was like, hey, I want to be better at my soft skills right now. I mean, inherently, some people have these skills. But how do you get to a point where you can start developing them alongside of AI so you don't get left behind?

5:37The Marketing Millennials Hosts:Yeah, I think it's one of the great mysteries for me. You know, two things that I say that go largely uncovered in school growing up is basic financial literacy and soft skills, like two things that are incredibly important to the welfare and success and satisfaction in our lives. Um, this is the exact reason why actually, uh, Jeffrey Colon and I started, um, uh, a soft skills sort of coaching program called everything else, because it's literally everything else you never learned in school or on the job. Um, and I think that there are increasingly places where you can go to learn about these things, uh, online, whether that is, you know, with a cohort of people like we do live or whether it's through, you know, various online programs, whether it's the incredibly overwhelming amount of podcasts and books and things that are out there, or, you know, I think underrated and how you and I came to know each other is going LinkedIn and, you know, starting to follow people that really feel inspiring to you, not only because of the work, but also because of how they show up and shooting your shot and trying to speak with those people and get into, you know, not necessarily one, but maybe a few sort of mentor like relationships that don't have to be with people that are 20 years, your senior, they can be peers.

7:05The Marketing Millennials Hosts:Um, but people who really, uh, are, are doing something that inspires you, um, whether it is showing up in an authentic way, whether it's storytelling, whether it's, you know, uh, approaching things and really like innovative and different perspectives and just try to strike up a conversation and learn and be a sponge as much as you can and a lot of it just comes with kind of doing and trying things and so i'll give you an example one thing that i did a couple years ago at turo i've been there for about three years now and i did a an anonymous 360 eval on myself like i sent out a g form a google form to people across the company who I've been working with, as well as some folks outside of the organization, and said, give me the good, bad, and the ugly, and really help me identify what are my superpowers as you perceive them, and how can I lean into that more?

7:58The Marketing Millennials Hosts:And then what are opportunity areas for me? And I wanted it to all be anonymous. I did not want to know where it came from because I didn't want people to feel like they couldn't be as honest with me as possible. Super, super helpful. And I think a lot of people try to constantly be introspective, which I think is incredibly important. Think about who you are and how you can grow and be honest with yourselves. But also this exercise of extrospection, of asking other people about yourself and then radically accepting that can be actually, on one hand, scary, and it is, and sometimes sucky. But on the other hand, it can be incredibly informative and freeing and motivating to figure out how you can become more of sort of who you want to be, who you're meant to be, all those cliches, and be a better leader and be a better team member and be a better partner and friend and all those good things.

8:56The Marketing Millennials Hosts:So, I think there's a lot of ways. And I'd invite people to just do something and not forget about this. Like, it's like working out, working out, working out, and then eating like, like crap. Right. It's like, don't forget about the other thing, right. Do the technical skills, but like, don't forget about the soft skills, at least try to do something to work on it. Yeah. I think most marketers actually forget that because you think you

9:24Matt Kerbel:inherently have these skills, but they actually are muscles that you need to work on. And one thing that you said i think is really important too is the best mentors are actually people who are in your role that you want to get next not like 5 10 15 years ahead so if you're like a manager right now i would like look for like a senior manager or a director to be a mentor not that cmo because they're they just went through what you went through a year or two ago so they can tell you what to do, how to get there, where someone who's a CMO is, hasn't done that for 10 years and things have changed.

10:02Matt Kerbel:And one thing you've also said is like marketing changes so fast. So it's like, when they were a manager, things could be different. AI is now in the picture where like five years ago, nobody was talking about it.

10:14The Marketing Millennials Hosts:There's data on that. I mean, there's data on it. You know, it's famously said that like Einstein was a terrible teacher when he was professor because he couldn't relate to anybody and nobody could relate to him. And, you know, I've had situations where like, I've learned a lot from some folks who are, you know, generations ahead. And, and I think that there's really important, like timeless wisdom that can be passed down. But I really do think that like, when you have a, you know, Gen X or boomer trying to relate to and advise and coach and mentor a Gen Z, for example, it's just completely different worlds.

10:55The Marketing Millennials Hosts:And that could be really tricky if we're being honest. And another thing I would say, you talked about skills that you can develop. I think something that people really underestimate as well are a couple. One is, and they're related, one is strategies to overcome fear and really working on that, whether that's anything, right? Whether it's public speaking or, you know, there's a million things that we all, you know, have sort of self-doubt about. The other is actually working on your confidence. And again, I nerd out on this stuff. There's a lot of literature that actually connects confidence to the perception of competence, you know?

11:35The Marketing Millennials Hosts:And so, you may have incredible data and this awesome narrative that you've put But then it really depends on how you deliver it. Right. And ultimately, that delivery, that confident delivery can break through so much more if you're just, you know, kind of in on yourself and you don't feel confident because of who's in the room or the quantity of people or, you know, this is your first time doing something like this. And so how can you practice confidence in safe spaces? Right. Can you find people that you can practice in front of who you know and love and they'll give you honest feedback? You know, can you, you know, start to write out your thoughts and really think through the narrative before you go into the room?

12:19The Marketing Millennials Hosts:What are things that you can do to feel more confident in your own skin? And part of it, Dan, to your point too, is to talk to people who've been in that role and where you want to go and help you understand. What does it take? What did they have to overcome? You know, how did they navigate what you're trying to navigate? I think it couldn't be more critical. And I would also encourage us to coach each other. There's some really awesome data from intelligence agencies like the CIA, where the highest performing teams are the ones that are constantly coaching each other. And there's another thing that I love.

12:57The Marketing Millennials Hosts:Again, I'm sorry to like throw all this really fun data. But as an oldest sibling, oldest siblings tend to, eldest children tend to perform best in school and ultimately go on to be generally more successful. I'm not saying that to like pat myself on the back for being born first. But the reason why an oldest child who has siblings does better than an only child, and you may say, oh, the only child is probably going to do best. They're going to have like all the attention of their parents. It's because of the coaching effect. it's because the oldest child is coaching you know his his or her siblings and that allows them to feel more confident in their own skin over time as children and then becoming adults to actually you know do the same and to be coachable for others as well so it's this like really really fascinating kind of psychological and sociological stuff that we don't really think about all the time and i now see it with my kids you know two sons who are eight and five and they're doing this all the time.

14:00The Marketing Millennials Hosts:And I just like well up with pride when I see the eight-year-old trying to teach the five-year-old to do something that when he was five and didn't have somebody to teach him, it was like a very different ballgame. So just a lot of really things that we don't normally think about that I am very, I feel strongly that we should. Yeah.

14:19Matt Kerbel:And one of the things I wanted to tap into is, I mean, you've said there's like two constants in marketing and We've talked about change is one of them. And then like timeless fundamentals. So what do you think is some of those like skills or fundamentals that helped you survive like every marketing trend that's been coming?

14:39The Marketing Millennials Hosts:Yeah. You know, I mean, my journey is kind of wild. Like I've been in companies of very different stages and maturities and subject matters, you know, whether I've been in gaming or whether I've worked, you know, for an electric vehicle company or i've been in marketplaces like turo and lyft um or cpg at general mills i always say to people like the reason why i'm able to be a bit of a chameleon is because the tenets of marketing don't change like no matter where we are in time um i think the most important thing is to start with the fundamentals which is like understanding the you know prospective customer and really, really try to put yourself in their shoes and try to understand their pain points, their frustrations, their needs, their dreams, their wants, their desires, all those kinds of things and understand what those kind of, what I would say human and cultural truths are.

15:34The Marketing Millennials Hosts:And then think about the brand and think about the company and think about the truths, the amazing things that the company does uniquely that are very hard, if not impossible, for rivals to replicate and then connect the dots. And you're only going to do that if you come from a place of research and empathy. And I learned that as a CPG marketer, General Mills, these training grounds where they really think insight first. But I really, really do believe it. And as I've gone to smaller companies, I like to say I kind of come in and put sort of structure around chaos because I come with this sort of framework mindset of thinking about research and insights being the foundation of everything.

16:17The Marketing Millennials Hosts:And we talked about AI to start the conversation. Again, shiny objects. I feel like so many people are obsessed with AI right now, but they're actually not getting to know those who will grow up with it and use it, and that being Gen Z. I don't know a lot of marketers who really, really, really deeply understand Gen Z. And by the way, Gen Z, like the eldest Gen Z years are like 27 now. Like they're working. They're, they're, they're not, they're not like kids. And by 2030, they're going to have, I believe it's 12 trillion with a T dollars in buying power, right? Like that is in five years. That is now in four and a half years.

17:01The Marketing Millennials Hosts:So the fact that like, we deeply seek to understand the tools that we don't get, you know, we don't fall behind or whatever you want to say, but we don't actually understand the audience in which we're trying to influence with said tool is I think a fundamental flaw of, of our craft and, and, you know, people who work in marketing. And I just want to really, really deeply encourage everybody to remember the fundamentals, like have a consistent brand, deeply know your customer creativity when done amazingly can be a force multiplier. Like these are things that are just fundamentally not going to change and you have to nail them.

17:36The Marketing Millennials Hosts:And then we have all of these tools and channels and places and spaces on the internet and beyond, you know, in real life as well, which is kind of quote unquote coming back to reach those people. Right. But, but that should only come after we're like, what is our message? Who are we for? What is the problem we're trying to solve? What is our promise to them? And then it's like, don't just be on TV because wisdom says you should be on TV. Be on TV if it makes sense for your audience to reach them in a way that is going to be potentially deeply effective and efficient. But maybe it's Reddit. Maybe it's Discord.

18:13The Marketing Millennials Hosts:Maybe it's through podcast ads. Maybe it's through long-form content. It doesn't matter. At the end of the day, if you have a great message that really is going to resonate with the audience, it will break through if you execute it really well, no matter where you are executing it. I fundamentally believe that.

18:28Matt Kerbel:One thing, I mean, I want to dive into one part of this because, I mean, you've been at like different industries, different roles. One of the fundamentals you said is like, you got to deeply understand your audience, the people, but what is like, when you get into these new roles, like what is your framework to like start understanding the customer, start understanding the prospect? Like what is the, that person behind buying? Like, what is that framework you use?

18:56The Marketing Millennials Hosts:Yeah. I mean, I go into like full blown ninja mode, which is, I want to talk to customer support and understand what people are complaining about. I want to go on the internet and dive into the deepest, darkest parts of Reddit, you know, and, and understand these things, you know, do we have social listening? Do we have past research? Do we have budget for future research? Right? Like who are our partners in doing this? You know, What do we already know? And again, this varies based on the size of the company, the resources at your disposal. But diving into reviews, there's so many things that you can learn.

19:34The Marketing Millennials Hosts:And then the secret weapon, don't tell anybody, is talk to humans. Go and talk to them. Get on the phone. Write them. I saw a post yesterday from the CEO of 1-800-GOT-JUNK. And he said that he is switching from Square to Plaid. And Jack Dorsey, who famously founded Twitter and also Square, reached out to him. And the guy was like, whoa, Jack Dorsey is reaching up to me like, okay, that's awesome. I wonder if he's going to try to win back my business. And apparently Jack was just like, look, we'd love for you to come back, but I actually just want to understand why you're switching and just listen.

20:19The Marketing Millennials Hosts:And I thought that that was fantastic. And I think that, you know, that earns a fan of Jack for life from that, you know, that, that leader, um, and maybe they will go back, but at the end of the day, there's so much that can be learned by just asking questions and listening. And, and also, uh, you know, if you know, principles communication, body language is obviously the biggest indicator of how people actually feel about something. And so, being able to talk to them, see how they express their body language, hear the intonation of their voice, and actually speak to humans could not be more important.

21:02The Marketing Millennials Hosts:So, I think that there's a million ways to do it when you get into a new company. And I just strongly encourage people to get started because it will lead to aha moments or the way somebody says something that you've been stewing on. And it just becomes this light bulb of like, oh my goodness, like that is, that's like, yes. Like what you just said is what this brand needs to be about or what this moment for this brand needs to be about. and then you start to go into mad scientist mode and figure out all the ways in which you can bring that to life with your crew. So yeah, I think it's so important.

21:42The Marketing Millennials Hosts:And then look, to the extent that you can leverage tools like AI to supercharge research, there's so many efficient, less expensive, faster ways to do research than ever. And so you don't even need a lot of resources. And by the way, I think that some traditional methods of research are super outdated. Like if you go into a normal room focus group, like there's going to be people that are influencing, you know, others, right. By being bigger or, uh, or having a stronger perspective and then other people don't want to speak up. And there's a lot of tools these days that help avoid that sort of, you know, biased group think or, you know, what they call the hippo, which is the highest paid person in the room or whatever.

22:31The Marketing Millennials Hosts:So I, yeah, I just encourage people to come from a place of like research and understanding before they try to sprint and say, how can I like growth hack the algo?

22:42Matt Kerbel:Yeah. I mean, what you just said about, I mean, doing what you said, like talking to customers, going in the deep depth of the internet, what AI is just doing for you now is like, you could take those 30 conversations the all the download all those threads of reddit people are talking about yeah and then put it into ai and help it analyze the data that you're still doing research but the ai can help you get to a point of what are the common words the these people are using what phrases stick out what are some common pain points you just use it to like super charge, be being more human, not the other way around.