Why Messaging Falls Flat (And How to Fix It) with Emma Stratton, Founder of Punchy | Ep. 341

0:00Emma Stratton:Hey besties, welcome back to another episode of the Marketing Millennials. I'm Tamara Grominski and I'm stepping in as your guest host while Daniel's out on paternity leave. I'm a career product marketing leader and the former VP of PMM at high-growth startups like Kajabi and Unbounce. Now I'm the founder of PMM Camp, a community and newsletter for product marketing leaders. And while Daniel's off doing dad things, I'll be here bringing you fun conversations with some of the smartest marketers I know. Today, I'm joined by Emma Stratton, messaging expert and founder of Punchy, a consulting and training firm that helps tech companies like Loom, Miro, and Uber win on positioning and messaging.

0:35Emma Stratton:She's also the author of one of my favorite marketing books, Make It Punchy. In this episode, Emma and I chat about how to write messaging that connects with real humans. We break down why most messaging falls flat and the difference between leading with features versus leading with value. We'll also talk about Emma's barbecue test, one of my favorite mental models, how to kill jargon before it kills your message and what it really takes to evolve from marketer to founder. Welcome to the Marketing Millennials, the no BS marketing podcast. I'm Daniel Murray, and join me for unfiltered conversations with the brains behind marketing's coolest companies.

1:16Emma Stratton:The one request I tell our guests, stories or it didn't happen. Get ready to turn the f*** up.

1:27Tamara G.:Emma, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me, Tamara. So fun to be here.

1:32Emma Stratton:So fun. I always love chatting with you. And we have a lot to chat about when it comes down to messaging. As you know, big fan of you and the book. Have it here alongside me. But I think more than anyone else I know, you have seen more messaging in the wild. And I want to know, kind of kick things off today by understanding, like, what do you think is the biggest reason why messaging falls flat?

1:54Tamara G.:Yeah, I mean, in our industry, right, tech, I would say the number one reason messaging falls flat is because it's too inward facing. It's too focused on the product, the technology, and not enough on why a buyer or a prospect should care. And so in doing so, the messaging is complicated and it's not interesting. So it just doesn't land because it's not what they want to know. And it seems really basic. Like, of course, your messaging should speak to what people care about. But believe it or not, that is not always the case. And so I still see this all the time in tech across industries as, you know, the number one reason messaging falls flat.

2:37Emma Stratton:Do you think it's because people don't know what their customers or prospects care about? Or do you think they do know, they just don't want to write messaging that way?

2:48Tamara G.:Probably both, right? I mean, there's definitely companies that maybe are still learning about what their customers want, maybe aren't sure. And, you know, there are a lot of companies do know what their customers want on one hand, but then there's always that desire to talk about your product and you're like, oh, you know, this is coming and this is going to be on the roadmap and this is our vision. And it's so exciting. And so rather than talking about the boring, maybe somewhat basic things that your customers want, you start talking about all the whiz bang, fancy, techie things that are happening and you're like 10 years ahead of where your customers are, right?

3:32Tamara G.:Like tech companies, we're always, we're visionary. we're looking into the future and your customers are often five, 10 years. I mean, depending what industry could be like 15 years behind you. So that's something I see all the time too. Just the messaging is far too advanced for the audience.

3:52Emma Stratton:Yeah. It's like your customer or the prospect is trying to solve a problem today and they actually probably don't care about how the problem gets solved. They just want to know first that you can help them solve that problem. Right?

4:02Tamara G.:Absolutely. Yeah, totally.

4:03Emma Stratton:So one of the things that you talk about in your book is the VBF model, which is the value proposition benefit feature. And you contrast it to what I think you're kind of hinting at here, which is FBV, which basically means most people start by promoting and talking about the feature. And you're kind of recommending to talk more about the value first. So can you break that down for us and just explain like, why does that order actually matter? It's Like it's all the same ingredients anyways.

4:33Tamara G.:Yeah, absolutely. So VBF is, another way to think about VBF is outside-in messaging. So maybe you've heard that, this idea of messaging that's inside-out versus outside-in. So inside-out messaging is really common. It's one of those reasons it often falls flat with people, is that it leads with what's on the inside of the product. So it's all about the product, and that's where it all starts. And maybe eventually you'll get to benefits, and eventually you'll tie it back to a value. So that's inside-out messaging. And the reason that doesn't work is the people who you're messaging to, they're not experts like you are.

5:08Tamara G.:They don't like know as much as you know. So they can't just dive straight into the feature. They don't really know what it's going to do for them, what problems it's going to solve, how it's going to kind of change their workflow or whatever. They don't know. And it puts all the burden on them to kind of figure it out. Like you should figure out how this real-time analytics is going to change your life. So that's the problem with inside-out messaging. And outside-in messaging leads with what matters to your buyer rather than what matters to you when you're thinking about your product. And so you're talking about, in the first instance, why should they care?

5:44Tamara G.:Why does this matter to them? And that's the lead-in. And once they get interested with why they should care, then eventually you can get to the benefits and the features. So it's about leading with what matters to your buyer with VBF rather than leading with what you're most excited about your product, which is kind of that FBV. And so I saw this problem so much in tech that I came up with VBF. It's just a simple way to almost even help people become aware of the fact that they are leading with features and not leading with what matters to their customer. And it's really resonated with people because I think it just simply helps you have a gauge, like, are we talking to our customers and what they care about, or are we just talking about ourselves?

6:32Tamara G.:So that's how VBF kind of came into the world one day when I came up with it. And so the idea is that you start with a value. And I think of a value like the big win your customer is going to get, like the big win. Then next comes the benefit. And the benefit is like the new superpower your customer is going to have thanks to your product or feature. So think about like what new thing are they going to be able to do? And then the feature is like the secret weapon of your product. And so it's a way of breaking that down, brainstorming those elements, and then coming up with a message that leads with the value.

7:15Emma Stratton:I mean, it makes total sense to me, but I know I'm a product marketer, so I've been trained to think this way. And I think you are right when you say, I don't think it's intentional that people have these big egos and they're like, I just want to talk about myself. I just think when we think about the different roles in a company, we have our own biases. If you're on the product team, you're just all day in the weeds with the product. That is how you're thinking. And then when you're a marketing team, often, let's extract product marketing from that marketing team, you're often telling a bigger story.

7:45Emma Stratton:And sometimes you actually are missing the gaps of like, can our product actually help that? That's what I love about product marketing is that it kind of solves for both of those. I'm curious if you have an example. I know I'm putting you on the spot here, but an example to kind of help clarify this. I think I've heard you give the Star Wars example maybe one time. It doesn't have to be a tech example, but something that's going to help bring people along with this analogy.

8:08Tamara G.:Yeah. So let me just explain. I'll do my Star Wars thing, because let's first explain feature benefit and value. So these three things often can get mixed up. I've found that people will call a benefit a feature or value benefit. Yeah. And I think kind of the semantics is part of what makes it so hard. So I just like to define it. So let's start with a feature. So a feature is something special your product does or has. And I said, think of it like a secret weapon. So my Star Wars example is the force is like a feature. So the force is like this powerful energy field that binds the galaxy together.

8:45Tamara G.:And if you've watched Star Wars, you know that the force is frigging awesome and you would like to have the force. But if you have never seen Star Wars, my explanation about it being this powerful energy field is really underwhelming. You're probably not that impressed with the force. And that's what happens when you kind of just say a feature. Like, I keep saying like real-time. I don't know why real-time analytics are on my mind. It's the customer I'm working with right now, but it's like, you know, self-serve real-time analytics. It's like, great, you know? So that's the feature. So features on their own don't really mean a lot until you get to the benefit.

9:22Tamara G.:So a benefit is new things your customer can do or be thanks to your product. And I think of them like a superpower. So if we go on with Star Wars, if we think about Luke Skywalker, the force actually gives him all kinds of new abilities. He can, you know, do crazy backflips and he can change people's minds and he can fly a plane upside down with his eyes closed. And these are all examples of benefits of the force. They're cool new things that Luke Skywalker can do thanks to the force. And now that I've explained all these cool things that Luke Skywalker can do, now you're like, huh, the force actually sounds pretty cool.

10:02Tamara G.:You know, I wouldn't mind having a little bit of the force myself. And that's what's great about benefits. They really bring to life what a product or a feature can do and why it's great. The next piece is value proposition. So in Star Wars, Luke Skywalker has a larger goal. He actually wants to defeat Darth Vader, bring peace to the galaxy, and all of his backflips and changing people's minds and flying planes are really all in service of this greater goal. And that's what value propositions are all about. It's about connecting the dots between a product or a feature to meaningful value. So I always say, like, if Luke Skywalker had to go to his boss and get sign-off for 5 ,000 seats of the force, he couldn't just be like, hey, it'll help you fly a plane with your eyes shut and do backflips, right?

10:50Tamara G.:He'd have to say, hey, this is actually going to help us defeat Darth Vader and bring piece to the galaxy. And that's why we have value propositions. So features, benefits, value with my silly example. So let's do like another silly example for how it works with VBF. And this is from my book, so you know this one. So say we're talking about a fancy blender, like a Vitamix or something, and the feature is commercial grade blades. So that's my secret weapon. They're very sharp and powerful. So that's my commercial grade blades. And that gives me a superpower of being able to like quickly make smoothies, you know, in a snap, like I can make a healthy smoothie in a snap.

11:34Tamara G.:That's my new superpower that I have thanks to this, these, these blades. And the big win that I get for that is eating healthier every day. So features commercial grade blades benefit is being able to quickly make smoothies in a snap and the value is being able to eat healthy every day. So if I had a message, that headline would be, you know, eat healthier every day. Then it would say, you know, quickly make smoothies in a snap thanks to our commercial grade blades. Now, if we did the reverse, the inside out, the FBV, my headline would be commercial grade blades, you know, and then it would be like, okay, you know, you can make smoothies in a snap and, you know, so that you can be healthier every day.

12:15Tamara G.:So the values at the end and the headline, which is, let's face it, what 80 % of people are actually, you know, reading and that's it is just saying commercial grade blades. So am I more interested in, you know, eat healthy every day or commercial grade blades? So that's a silly example of FBV versus VBF.

12:35Emma Stratton:No, I think it's great because sometimes when we're in our heads about like the industries we're in, we can't actually see the framework. And so that's why I loved the Star Wars example. And I think the blender example is great as well. Now, typically, you know, when I'm talking to marketers or I'm seeing people engage with your framework, everyone's bought into this point. And then they're like, but who am I writing the value for? You know? And so as you know, there's often tension between writing for the champion, writing for the buyer, writing for the end user. Maybe it's like a super complicated deal and there's like seven people in the buying committee.

13:07Emma Stratton:In your opinion, when you're writing messaging, who should you be writing for?

13:12Tamara G.:Yeah, it is a complicated one because, and it really depends on your industry and the way your group is. But typically I always say, kind of go for the champion, which is sometimes the buyer, you know? So yeah, it's the person who is most motivated to get this through. Like the one who like, this is their, this is their gig, right? They're bringing this on. So a lot of people often say, oh, but you know, it's the CEO that signs off. Should we be talking to the CEO? And it's like, no, CEO isn't reading all the websites and looking at all the different products. They've had someone else to do that.

13:53Tamara G.:So don't write for the CEO. Sometimes people say, well, IT is very important. If IT says no, then we don't get through? Should we talk to the director of IT? And it's a platform or a product that has like nothing to do with IT. It's like, no, don't make everything just for the IT director. And there may be different places where you can have specific messages for specific people as needed. But generally, I think you want to focus on the other person who is most, I keep saying motivated. There's a word. I've got summer brain, but there's like a word I'm looking for. someone who's most bought in into the process.

14:29Tamara G.:That's the person you want to talk to. They're the ones that are like talking internally, selling internally. So you want to kind of speak to them. But one thing I have found, I mean, depending on the product, sometimes you do want to speak to the user when you're trying to help people understand like what this product is and what it can do. Sometimes it can be helpful to speak to the user, even though someone at the director level or VP might be buying. So I always think when you're not sure who matters most, who is going to be most bought into the process and really pushing you through. And also we're trying to help people.

15:14Tamara G.:So who needs to understand this? So those are kind of questions that I tend to ask folks. It's not easy. It's not cut and dry, but that's what I would kind of suggest to folks who are struggling with it right now.

15:29Emma Stratton:I think that makes sense. And I think if we think about application of messaging, most of us would think about the homepage or certainly a website. And in that case, you're a hundred percent right. And if we don't have that initial message right, how can we start to cascade the messages? And so when I think about it as well, I start where you're recommending we start. And then I always ask myself, like, how does my message need to evolve or adapt based on who else might be brought into the conversation. And maybe it is more technical or maybe it is more business focused or whatever it might, more value focused if it's just about pricing at some point, if there's an economic buyer.

16:05Emma Stratton:But I do think all of those are hard to get right if you don't have that initial kind of champion messaging right first.

16:11Tamara G.:Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's a great point.

16:14Emma Stratton:So one of the ways I also see messaging fall flat or go wrong, and this is not just a B2B thing. Like it's shocking how often this happens in B2C and consumer as well. It's like, it's just super overcomplicated, right? So one of your sayings, I think like the first thing I heard of yours that I was like, I'm going to like this girl was say it like you would at a barbecue. That's right. That's right. First of all, I want to hear the story behind that. How do you remember when you first started using that phrase? Like where did it even come from?

16:44Tamara G.:You know, it's so funny. I don't. I actually do not remember that one. It's like, it's always been here. Like I can't, I actually can't, so many things I can remember the first time, but I don't remember when I came up with that. It was probably like four or five years ago. No idea. I'm sorry. I should know. I wish I had a great story. I know. It's just like, yeah. Oh, came down from the heavens. Yeah. It's like, it's always been with me. I think, I think my style and my vibe has always been casual and real and down to earth. And I think I probably just grabbed the metaphor one day and just, you know, just ran with it.

17:21Emma Stratton:Okay. So for people who have absolutely no idea what we're talking about. Like, what are they talking about? Yeah. Why don't you break down what you even mean by this and how we can apply it? Yeah.

17:32Tamara G.:I think one challenge that we have in B2B is that a lot of our writing is stiff and formal and corporate, sometimes dry. And we use these funny big words that we would never use in real life in conversation. They're almost like B2B words or there might be industry words. Like we add shun, we turn everything into a noun, you know, and we add shun at the end. So I don't know. I think it started with like, we want to sound professional and smart. And then everyone just, I think we all, it's reinforced, Everyone's doing it, so we do it. But it's really hard for readers. Long sentences, these strange things that we say in B2B.

18:16Tamara G.:It's not that people aren't smart enough to understand it, but it takes work. It's kind of like wading through mud, reading these sentences with all this kind of corporate language. And I often find that marketers feel like they have to write that way. Like it's not naturally how they'd want to, but they feel like they have to. Maybe it's pressure or expectation. And so I always say, just make it more casual, more conversational. So it's not about dumbing things down, but it's about using casual phrasing, something that you might actually say rather than these strange things that we write. So I always say, okay, you've said like scalable strategic solution.

18:59Tamara G.:Great. Right. Imagine you're at a barbecue talking to a smart friend. How would you explain what you mean by this scalable strategic solution? And instantly people are like, oh, I just would say, and they say something very simple. There's something about that mental model of giving them permission to be like, okay, let's just get casual. Like, let's take off the tie. What are you saying? And people come up with really nice, simple language on their own. so it just it works really well so I always say whenever I see like a really kind of jargony statement or something that doesn't make a lot of sense I ask the person okay how would you say that at a barbecue and then it makes them think and then they always end up saying something really simple and clear and then I say write that instead it's so clear it's so easy to understand so it's it's definitely um a technique that I think helps people and you can get really quick results from it too.