Council Tax Money Back Special **UPDATED 20/6, after Government consultation launched**

24:53That was 2007. This is 2025. For 34 years, no party of any hue has been brave enough to say this was a rush job that was flawed at the start and systemically left hundreds of thousands of homes in the wrong band. And that means it is potential for everybody listening to be in the wrong band. You may be in too lower band, you may be in too higher band. If you are into higher band and you can get through the check and challenge system, you get your band lowered, as we just heard, and you get a backdated payout. Now, I have heard of backdated payouts in the tens of thousands of pounds. And of course, as councils, we know their finances are struggling.

25:39But ultimately here, we are all reliant on a flawed system. This has been unjust and people are paying the wrong bands. And one of the big things that we'll talk about is literally you can be in a street with identical houses and be in band B and everybody else is in band A. I mean, that is an absolute plausibility because the way this valuation worked is they had a clipboard that may have been wrong telling them the number of bedrooms. So they walked past, they were driving past, looked at the size. It's what Tim was telling me, the estate agent all those years ago, looked at the size and went, oh, band C.

26:09Well, if the data was wrong or if they look wrong, you're in the wrong band. So if there was incorrect criteria to do the original valuations, that implies there is some correct or more correct criteria now. I don't think it's the criteria. I think it's the actual assessment. OK. I mean, 400 in a day. I mean, they drove past the street. I mean, it was it was just like it was, you know, there was a bit of picking it out. Yeah. Not totally. They had they had some data. They had some lists. They knew the area. But this was never meant to last. This was just meant to be an, oh, sugar, we've got to get the council tax in, let's do it quickly and we'll do it properly in a couple of years, which Wales did a valuation in 2003 and rebanded in 2005.

26:50And listen, there were winners and there were losers when it did that, but that was a proper valuation. The stopgap, second gear valuation, if you're in England and in Scotland, that's what dictates your price today. It's worth me noting Northern Ireland doesn't have council tax, so sorry to everyone in Northern Ireland, this isn't relevant for you today. Council tax check number one. Are you in one of hundreds of thousands of homes that's in the wrong band? Let's go through the checks then. OK, so we'll do the checks before the challenges. The first check is very simple. It's the neighbours' check.

27:23Is your band higher than neighbours in preferably identical, if not in similar homes? Now, you don't need to ask them. You can simply check your band and your neighbour's bands at gov.uk in England and saa.gov.uk in Scotland. You find out what the bands are, and you can talk to the neighbours about their property. I need to just... The checks that I'm doing here, these are the checks to see if it's then worth doing much more investigation in the challenge. These are the spot checks, if you like, to see if it's likely to be worthwhile. These are not your formal. So the first check is the neighbour's check.

27:58Make sense? OK. Richard is already sort of worried, say, challenged the band if it goes up instead of down. Do you have to pay more? Absolutely. You cannot request that your band is lowered. You can simply ask them to reassess your banding. Now, let's just be plain. The problem with the neighbours' check is this. If you are in a higher band than neighbours in identical properties, it may be that they are all in to lower band and you are in the right band. And what you don't want to do is, A, do an appeal and find your ban goes up. Or worse, you get in touch with this and they put all your neighbours' bans up.

28:35As long as they don't tell the neighbours why they're doing it. Oh, it all comes out and it's happened. And this is because people do this speculatively without doing the proper checks. Now, when I invented this system back in 2007, of course, I mean, I didn't invent council tax challenging, but I tried to formulise how you do it. I came up with this second check. And the second check is called the valuation check. Now, it's very important for me to say when you go on to the challenge later, The valuation check is not evidential. You cannot use it in the challenge. They won't look at it. This is just my second check that gives you...

29:06To inform your decision. To inform your decision of whether it's likely you're in too higher band or your neighbours are in too lower band. And I would absolutely not go any further unless you pass both checks. And I have never heard of, I can't say it didn't happen, but I've had tens of thousands of successes on this, I suspect, that type of scale. I've never heard of anyone having their band up if they've passed both checks. So the second cheque is the valuation cheque, which is effectively, what was your house worth in 1991? That's because the bands were still in, not only were they last valued in 1991, but they're still based on 1991 prices.

29:44So, for example, in England, a band A is under 40 grand, a band B is 40 to 52 ,000, a band C is 52 ,000 to 68 ,000, a band D is 68 to 88 ,000, a band D, 88 ,000 to 120 grand, A band F,£120 ,000 to£160 ,000. A band G,£160 ,000 to£320 ,000. And a band H, over£320 ,000. Well,£320 ,000 isn't that big a house price anymore. So, you know, if it were on today's prices, everyone, you know, half the country would be in band H. So, what do you do? Well, if you bought your house in or after 1991, take the price and sale date, if it's earlier, take the price and sale date, and then you need to back calculate the value in 1991 prices, which people can work out where as I've been doing this, there are free tools on the internet that will do this for you, Adrian.

30:31That's all I can say. There are free tools that will do this for you. If you bought your house before 1991, it gets trickier. And let me say right now, the system is imperfect. I do not have answers for everything. We're trying to battle an antiquated valuation system based on antiquated data. But what you would do is you'd find a property that was identical or similar to yours, find out what year it sold on Zoopla and Rightmove and what the prices are, and you'd back-calculate that. So if both checks, your neighbours checks you're in too high a band, and it looks like that you are still in too high a band in 1991 prices when you back-calculate what your house was worth in 1991, then I think it's safe to move on to looking at challenging it.

31:13OK. So Martin says, we've discovered that our leasehold house was first sold new in 1997 for less than its council tax ban valuation adjusted for inflation between 91 and 97, which would have put it in a lower ban. If we challenge the valuation office to correct it, are we likely to get a ban reduction? Irrelevant. Everything you've told me is irrelevant because valuations in that sense are not what the valuation office agency looked at. What they're looking at is, are you wrong compared to similar properties and identical properties? The neighbour's cheque is the more important one. You've got this giving me the secondary cheque.

31:47If you're also saying all my neighbours are in a lower band than me and they're in similar or identical properties, then yes, what you're telling me is important. Otherwise, valuation is not evidential. And Adrian says, how do we go about challenging the band we are in when there are no identical houses in our street? It's really difficult. And in fact, let me go through the technicals of the challenge now, which will answer that question. OK, so when you challenge, step one is to submit a formal, or if you have to, an informal review process. Formal is better, it is a set process, but it's available to far fewer people.

32:24Because for a formal process, you must have moved in the property within the last six months, which I think we've probably got a question on that. Oh, yes. I've challenged my councillor tax ban this year as of March 25, and they have said that because it has been more than six months since I moved in, I can't challenge it. Right. Well, the big question here is where are you? So England and Wales, there is a formal and an informal process. Scotland, there is only a formal process. If you've moved into your house in Scotland over six months ago and you think you're in the wrong band, I would say it is nearly impossible to challenge it.

33:01I spoke to the head of the Scottish Assessors Association about it when I did a show on it in the past. And she says, we won't say it's impossible, but there has to be some serious error. Now, one of the arguments that you can use here is the council tax office have to, by statute, to maintain the integrity of the list. So if you believe you're the fundamental error of your council tax banding, you can challenge them on the, they're not administratively doing their job properly, but it's really, really hard. And it's not for people who don't have, can't grit their teeth and focus on something.

33:31You know, it's going to be a big job. So let's go to the formal challenge. In general, you must have lived in the property for six months or less. Renters can do this as well as people who own, but if you're a renter, courtesy would indicate tell your landlord before you do that. You may also be able to formally challenge if the property has fundamentally changed. For example, it's changed from a house into flats, or its use has changed. For example, some of it is now being used for a business, or the local area has changed. For example, a nightclub's been built next door and it's fundamentally not the value.

34:05In Scotland you may also be able to challenge formally if there has been a material significant drop in property prices where you are But that is Scotland only So technically no evidence is needed in a formal challenge but I would do the evidence I'm going to talk about The informal challenge is for those people who say you can't challenge because you've lived there too long Which is exactly like that question you just had And this is all about the VOA having a legal duty to uphold the integrity of the council tax lists. But to do an informal challenge, you must provide compelling evidence that you are in the wrong band.

34:43So you can see what we're talking about here is the criteria for the challenge is different. If it's a formal challenge, you can say to them, I think I'm in the wrong band. Can you have a look at it? And here's why. If it's an informal challenge, it's hardcore preparation to get in and really push your case in England and Scotland and that there's compelling evidence, not that you're on the border of being in the wrong band, but you are manifestly in the wrong band. Right. Okay.

35:14So if you can do informal or formal, which should you go for? Always do formal, if you're able to do formal. Informal is for those who can't do formal. So always do formal first. Now, when it comes to challenging, again, in England and Wales, there's a brilliant thing that you need to get. And it's called, and people don't know about this, it's called your property attribute details that is held by the valuation office agency. So the way you get this, I'm sorry, it's convoluted. You go to gov.uk, you go to the contact VOA, valuation office agency page, you select council tax, then you select other, then you type in request my pad p a d alternatively you can call the voa but their phone lines will be busy on 0303000 501501 0303000 501501 they'll normally come within five days but this and the podcast will probably mean it lasts longer so this is now everybody even though you can't get a pad in scotland you need to understand what's on your pad because this is what they're looking at when they're establishing are you in the right band and comparing you to other properties.

36:24Let me talk through what's on your property attribute details now. The property type, is it end of terrace or semi-detached? The property age, is it Victorian or post-war? The number of floors, the number of bedrooms, that includes bedrooms not currently being used as bedrooms. So if you've turned a bedroom into a home office, that's a bedroom. The number of bathrooms, though that excludes toilets with only a sink. It's got to be a proper bathroom, not just a loo. The number of rooms, the living room, dining room, study, exclude conservatories, the utility room and kitchens, and the floor area, the size of the property measured in square metres.

37:01So many people who go through once you're in the challenge phase, they are on their hands and knees measuring floor property, or they're using the floor property measure they got when they bought to see if it matches up to your pad. All of those things, once you've got your pad, is go through it line by line, Because if it's incorrect, that may be strength towards your brand. But if it was only done on the basis of a drive-by valuation, how could the pad possibly be accurate? Well, the valuation of your band was a drive-by valuation, but the pad details were stored and it was the interrelation between the two, which is how the valuation was done.

37:32Yeah, but that doesn't, you know, these things aren't necessarily right. But it's always worth going through that. And the reason it's worth going through that is what you then have to do, the next step is, you know, this isn't easy to do, but we're talking tens of thousands of pounds for people, is identify similar or identical properties in the lower band. So you did that for my cheques. Now that was your, should I be looking at this? Should I be doing further work? Now we're in the... So what do you do? Go round your neighbour's house with a tape measure? Say, can I measure your toilet? As best as you can, or if not, find their sales data and the floor plans that are available when they were sold on the property prices near you, you're looking for same street or estate.

38:15That's really important. That helps, although in very rural areas, because you have to submit these, you have to submit the identical properties you are arguing are in a lower band than yours. In rural areas, it will accept up to 10 miles difference. But if you're in a city, you're looking at same street estate, same style or features, you can't compare a semi to a flat. Similar age, you can't compare a new build to pre-1900s. Similar size, usually within a maximum 10 % difference, but closer is better. To find those, speak to other occupiers or try property sales site, or if needed, you can go to the land registry for a small fee, which has records of other properties.

38:51And then, I'm nearly there, sorry everyone, then you submit your challenge. In England, it's gov.uk, challenge your council tax band. You can phone or email or write to the VOA. In Scotland, Wales is the same. In Scotland, it's saa.gov.uk, make a proposal. Include a description of your property and any disagreement with the pad. If you think the pad is wrong, that's very important. Plus addresses, descriptions, evidence of lower banded homes. There are free templates available online. The outcomes, success, woohoo, backdated. Formal rejection, you can appeal within time limits. Informal rejection, that's probably it, unless you find new data that has a substantial change in it.

39:32That is the Check and Challenge. We're into council tax. First of all, Stephen Wiltshire said he's just seen Elon Musk walk into a nail salon in Swindon. I can't explain what that's all about. I said it is less likely than Elon Musk setting up a nail salon in Swindon. You never said they wouldn't walk into one. I didn't say he wouldn't walk in. If he's walked in, does he own it? Go back in and ask him. Or is he going to make an offer? This is from Caroline in Birmingham. I just found my council this morning. after several phone calls, emails about my mum's council tax, which you received a court summons for non-payment from when she died.

40:07It's been a nightmare and distress. I had to contact my MP. This needs investigating because she was charged from the day she died. It turns out she was in credit. Council tax debt collection is a nightmare system. When you talk to the debt counselling agencies, they talk about commercial lenders, but the one that they save the shake of their head is council tax. It is more vicious, more aggressive and more rapid than any other form of mainstream debt collection in the UK. That's why I cried a little bit when I got the win that they're going to consult on changing the way it works. Millions of people's lives are destroyed.

40:49The fact that you can't pay a month and you then have to pay a year and you have bailiffs to your door. The story that got me involved in this is through my charity, Money and Mental Health Policy Institute, of the woman who got her council tax demand for a mispayment because of delays in the post on Christmas Eve. And she had to pay a year's worth by Christmas Day or the bailiffs were coming round. This is a woman with severe mental health problems who was turned into total anxiety, who therefore got a credit card out to pay it. She took out a new credit card at 40 % interest rate that she could never afford to pay.

41:21and it absolutely catastrophised and destroyed her finances. Constituents treated worse than customers and that's why I've been campaigning to change and that's just another symptom of it. And I hope this consultation, I hope, will come out in the next month. I haven't got a date for it. I'm hoping it'll be in the next month. And they've told me it will include changes to getting, you know, just reducing the rapid and aggressive debt collection, which I should note doesn't mean councils bring in more money. Telling people to pay money they haven't got just means it adds cost to the individual, cost to the council and cost to the NHS because of the mental health impact that it has on so many people.

41:58So it isn't a clever system for anyone and I'm very pleased and I'm thankful to the government for saying they'll look at it. Just a quick one from Trevis Childs. There's not many Childs is about, so there must be distant cousin Trevis. I mean, I wonder if he calls himself Chilis or something so people don't connect you. Yes, maybe. Why wouldn't he want to be connected? No, because it's the mastermind school. He's probably just about to be mastermised at school. He says that he lives in a fairly modest bungalow, bungalow, bungalow, band F. Next door is triple the size of their house and are on a lower tax band.

42:29Why is this? What can we do to reduce or challenge our band? Well, why is it? Because the whole system is fundamentally flawed. That's a very simple answer, which I hope I've explained so far. But what you don't know is they may have expanded their house and not been revalued. In which case, you know, if you don't do the checks properly, all that will happen by you going to the council is they will say, oh, we hadn't spotted that. Let's put them up a band or two. You don't know that you're in too low a band. You just know there's a difference. And the fact they've had an expansion may not mean it's been rebanded.

42:59So they're still being valued on what the house was in advance. So I'd be careful on that one. Council tax check number two. Are you missing out on a discount on your council tax? Discounts. Who gets them? OK, so I'm afraid again, and I'm sorry if this programme is being complicated, folks, but it is complicated. It's not me who does the system. These are discounts. What everybody needs to understand is the full council tax bill is based on two or more qualifying adults living in the property. If you are not in that situation, you may be due a discount. An adult is simply somebody aged 18 or older.

43:38There are four categories of discount, but they interact in relatively complicated ways. So let me give you the categories first. somebody aged under 18 a minor we're going to call them a minor from now on a full-time student on a minimum one-year course we're going to call them students but they're a full-time student somebody with a severe mental impairment this is the one that is commonly missed out and that i'm campaigning to get better clarification on it a severe mental impairment is desire is currently defined as an impairment of intelligence and social functioning which appears to be permanent.

44:16It is common with Alzheimer's, dementia, severe strokes, severe Parkinson's. To qualify as having a severe mental impairment, you need to have had a doctor certified that you have an SMI. Councils have different forms. I want to standardise the forms. It makes it too complicated. You'll need to get the doctor to sign the form and you will need to be getting one of a number of benefits like attendance allowance, disability, living allowance, personal independence payments. Some of those are non-means tested benefits. So it isn't necessarily about means tested going through in it. In England and Wales, you will need to be getting that benefit.

44:53In Scotland, you can just be eligible for the benefit even if you're not getting it. But if you're eligible and not getting it, you should be getting it, is what I'd also say. So we've now got three categories, minors, students, SMI, severe mental impairments. Fourth category, This is a different one, is live-in carers. So that's someone who is caring over 35 hours a week of care, not for your spouse or partner or a child under the age of 18. Right. So you've got those four categories. If there are two qualifying adults living in the house, even if they're living with a host of people who are discounted for council tax, minors, students, SMI, you pay 100 % because there are two adults.

45:36So the two adults always override everything else. If there is one adult living in the house with somebody who is discounted, severe mental impairment, student, minor, or a carer, you get a 25 % reduction. So that's the single adult discount. A single adult gets a 25 % reduction and you still get that even if you're living with someone who is discounted for council tax purposes, which are the categories I mentioned earlier. If everybody in the household is discounted, so let's say an all-student household or perhaps two people who both have a severe mental impairment, you do not pay council tax.

46:14And then the one slightly hybrid category, if somebody with a severe mental impairment is living with a carer and no other adults, you get a 50 % discount. So those are the discounts. So what you need to be looking at is, You see the complicated interrelation. But the thing that always trumps that, that people need to understand, is two adults, you pay the full amount. Even if you're living with 12 under 18s and four students, you pay the full amount because it's about the number of qualifying adults in the house that goes for it. Now, if you're suddenly listening to that and going, hold on, I didn't think I was entitled to the single person discount because I live with my kids or I live with my son who's a student and he's 19.

46:52So I didn't think I would get it. You do get it. Get in touch with them. whether you will get it backdated to the moment that it happened to you is counsel by counsel. For severe mental impairment in Wales, because they listened to the campaign asked and I was very pleased and they credited us with this, they have standardised information and standardised backdating for severe mental impairments cases. So people get big backdated payouts on severe mental impairments. Julie, hello. Can't thank you enough for the amazing advice. Sorry, that wasn't a bit I meant to read. And you have given on your show, which has been invaluable in dealing with my disabled brothers' affairs since losing our dad.

47:27I'm very happy to tell you I filled in the SMI forms for my brother who has a brain tumour and now not only does he never have to pay council tax again, so he's probably living by himself, he received a refund of over£2 ,000. Thank you. But backdating is not standardised. It's council by council. Pam's got a question. Why should single occupants pay three quarters of what a dual income couple pay? Why not 50 %? It's a tax on single people. Why aren't adult children living at home with mummy and daddy tax? Why aren't all adults taxed at equal level? Couples with kids are getting away with free services, which those without kids living at home are paying for.

48:00The whole system is screwed. I think you mean skewed to families with a large number of kids. I can answer that very simply. The reason that happens is because the rules say so. Right. That's it. Now, interestingly, people often say, why is it 25, not a 50 % discount? Well, I think that's based on an assumption that a household has two adults in. Some households have four adults in. So where do you set the discount? This is what happened. Let's go back. The poll tax replaced the rate system. The poll tax said the amount of counter-tax you pay depends on the number of people living in your house.

48:32It was actually seen to be a very regressive system. You know, poorer families living in a small house where there are five adults sharing would pay five times as much as a couple in a huge house who were very wealthy. And it was seen to be hugely unfair. And there were riots for those not old enough to remember you and I are, Adrian. It was 1989. There were literal riots in the streets over it. And it was one of the things that brought down the Thatcher government. So, I mean, it was a huge thing. They then came up with council tax pretty quickly. Council tax is roughly based on the valuation of your property, although it's done in bands.

49:07And it's done in the valuation of your property, but then it's a hybrid because it depends on how much your council wants to raise money. So if you live in an area where the council tax is low, you can be paying in a band H, paying less than someone where the council tax is high in a band D. And that's also an injustice that goes on out there. And then because there was an argument saying, what about single people at the last minute, if I remember this rightly, and I was quite young at the time, they put in the single person discount as a sop to those people who are living by themselves at 25%.

49:38Why does it work like that? Because stuff happens and that's how it's worked. Is it just? Of course it's not just. The whole system's completely bonkers. Our whole system of local taxation doesn't really work, should have been rebanded, and is completely unfair. But no political party, I mean, some of the smaller parties are promising they would do. If they actually did it and get in government, they won't do a rebanding. Why? Because there'll be winners as well as losers, and it would be incredibly unpopular, even though it'd be just. Even though, of course, if we're going to have the council tax system, the fact that we've got much bigger variation of house prices with huge houses worth tens of millions in one area.

50:14That should all be factored in. Of course it won't be, though, because no one is brave enough to touch it. And if they do touch it, they'd probably scrap the whole system and some argue about local income tax and lots of other things because tax is political. That's why it works that way. Council tax check number three. Are you one of potentially two and a quarter million people on lower incomes who are due a reduction but aren't getting it? Reduction then Okay So There is council tax support Worth up to£1 ,500 a year Missed out by possibly Two and a quarter million people The reduction is those Primarily for those on lower incomes And in some cases It can cut your council tax bill By up to 100 % Now you can do both the discount That we've talked about And a reduction That's why I'm categorising them separately The reductions often apply to people who are on universal credit, so means-tested benefits, or pension credit.

51:15But this is the thing I need to shout, and this is the reason I believe why two and a quarter, potentially two and a quarter, those aren't government stats, so it's the stats for an agency I work with, potentially two and a quarter people are missing out. You have to apply for council tax benefit separately. You do not automatically get it if you are on universal credit or pension credit. Council tax benefit and the exact qualifying criteria are dictated by your council and the reduction is dictated by your council and you have to apply to your council. So we do not have a joined up system between the central government benefits and the council tax benefit.

51:55And because of that and because many people assume they would automatically get it if they were entitled to it, millions miss out on it. OK, Kate, what are the thresholds to be entitled to council tax benefit? Government websites don't specify any figures, nor do council tax, nor do individual council websites. Well, some individual council websites do, but not all of them do. My honest answer is if you think you may qualify, apply. What's the worst that can happen? They say no. You know, I go back to my major subtext here. I started off by saying council tax is broken. I think you're starting to see why I say that.

52:30and I hope that the government consultation will improve that somewhat. Why isn't a council tax a flat rate, given we all benefit equally for its service? It must have been police, fire services, been collected, etc. Well, do we, though? Do people, whether more people in the household, you would argue, probably use more services, lower-income households probably use more council services than other services? All of those things are part of the political equation. But why is it? Because it's what I've just explained, because it is, and there was riots when it was done on a single-person basis, which was regressive.

52:59the single poll tax was a regressive tax, yeah. How does it work with flats, says Gemma? I have customers playing the same as me. I'm in a three-bed house for a flat that has other flats in it. Does that mean the council is getting four lots of council tax for one property? Well, it will be getting four lots of council tax, but as discussed earlier, you can do a formal challenge to your band, even if you haven't moved in within six months, if there was a change of usage. So if a house is split up into flats, you can formally challenge the band. OK, but it's an identical house to yours, which happens to have been converted to four flats.

53:29they will be getting four lots of council tax. Yes, but one would presume that the people who are in the flat should be paying less council tax than you should because they don't have the same property that you do. Yeah, but those four will add up to more than your one. Well, they may add up. I mean, if it wasn't rebanded and they're all in the same band of you, it will add up to a hell of a lot more than one. So it just depends on the property there. Adrian, I think we should stop at this point. Let's have a bit of a break and let's play with this. It's a break for you. Not for me. I don't like this, but I do it every week.

53:57You do like it. Because it's you. You do like it, really. We'll have a little bit of a break from council tax to do my money mastermind with Adrian, where Adrian has currently got nine right in the three-option multiple choice and 17 wrong, which means, Adrian, if you get it wrong today, you go back to only being as good as random chance. OK, so it's quite an important one. Hallelujah, everybody. Mr Charles and I have been doing this podcast together for a pregnant nine months now. Finally, Adrian is beginning to get it. He's checked his personal savings allowance status, realised he's over the limit and decided to use a cash ISA, a savings account where the interest is never taxed.

54:44All good. He wants to put some in easy access and lock some away at a guaranteed rate in a fixed. That is a decent level of fiscal understanding by Adrian. The question he has, though, is can he contribute to two different new cash icers in this new tax year? It's all very sensible. So, Mr. Charles, my question to you is can you help Adrian Huntley, who emailed in with that question, by supplying the answer? See, the gag, if you missed it, was the Adrian who was sensible wasn't you. Just in case you didn't write it that well. How many different cash icers can you contribute to in this current tax year?

55:26That excludes transferring past your ISA. So we're only talking about new money going in. A, only one. B, one or two only. Or C, as many as you like.

55:42What's your thinking? Well, I should. I feel as if there's one. I really should know. But I don't. And I can't imagine it's an infinite number. Because we've all got limits. I can't imagine. Well, you always have a£20 ,000 limit. There's a limit to the amount you could put in. So you could argue on that basis it would have to be a theoretical limit of a minimum pound opening, 20 ,000 cash ISIS. But we're not going to that. All right. I would say you can – well, given that then, and thanks for your help, and you're obviously leading me down to the wrong answer. No, I was just being technical because it was a rather strange assertion.

56:21Okay. So I'm going to go for as many as you like, as long as you don't exceed the... I know the expression on your face, but I've got it right or wrong. So what, you think you've got it right or wrong? There's just something about your face. I couldn't explain what it is. So tell us whether you think you've got it right or wrong from what you saw on my face. Well, I assume I've got it wrong because I assume I've got everything wrong. But I think it's... From the look on my face. Yes. Okay, so Adrian, ever since ISIS was set up, there's been a limit on the amount of money that you can have in and you've been able to open a cash ISA and a stocks and shares ISA in the same year.

56:58But you've only been able to open one of each type. Right.

57:07But from the 6th of April 2024, the rules were changed. Right. And the rules were changed and the restriction on subscribing to one ISA of each type in a year was removed. You may now open as many different ISAs of one type, for example, a cash ISA. You can have a fix and you can have two different easy access cash ISAs, all of which you've opened and put new money into within the one tax year. Play the hallelujah. Oh, look at the smile. of cheating random chance. Adrian, you are statistically with the score of 10-17. I don't know what that is. You are about 5 % to 6 % more bright than random chance.

57:59I'll settle for that. That's too generous to me, but I'll settle for that. Can I get a T-shirt, mate? What? With that on it. I am 5 % cleverer than random chance. We should probably sell that, shouldn't we? It should be the podcast marketing. Money mastermind at the bottom end of it. Have you got any more council tax questions? I know loads have come in. Somebody has got in touch. We put a claim into the Valuation Office in December 2024, told us it could take 90 days to deal with her up to six months. We've passed that second date. Upon complaint about the timescale, I'm now told it could take 12 months.

58:32It's a formal council tax ban challenge with robust evidence. Yeah, so formal council tax ban challenges are taking up to six months. Informal are taking longer. I will take some of the blame to that. I did a special on my TV show in November, and that has just mean there's a lot more demand going into the formal and informal appeals than there were beforehand. And this podcast is going to exacerbate the situation. The valuation office agency say they're investing in better technology in order to be able to speed up the process. But this ain't going to be quick. Remember, though, if you do have a case, it's backdated back to when you moved in or 1993, whichever of those is later.

59:08So you won't actually miss out. it would just be a cash flow. But yeah, the challenge is not quick.

59:16Now we're in the pod only bit, but I do want to do this final council tax check for you. There is over£100 million of overpaid council tax belonging to 800 ,000 homes. To reclaim it, you just use the council's online form or you can call or email, but don't call or email unless you're pretty sure you've got something. Try and use the online form if you can. We don't want to unnecessarily clog up council call centres. You are most likely owed this money if you moved out of a council area since 1993 and you weren't paying by direct debit, because if you were, it's easier for them to track you down.

59:54This is about money they owed you in back pay. Why might you be owed money? Well, it might be that you paid in advance. For example, you paid 10 months of the year, but you moved out before the end of the year. It might be that you forgot to cancel your payment after you moved out, or it might be that you're due a retrospective refund. So for example, your property was rebanded because someone challenged after you moved out, you're actually still owed that money in back pay if you were living there beforehand. So those are all the right circumstances to check if you're owed money and back credit by your council.

1:00:26But again, it's primarily for those who weren't paying by direct debit and have moved out of a council tax area since 1993. If you have, well, you might want to go and check your old account to see if you're owed any money.

1:00:42Right, so I'm joined by PPS podcast producer Simon to talk through some more of your council tax questions now. It was an interesting one that Simon, it's quite difficult to talk through on the radio because it's so complex and technical, but I suppose one of the advantages of a podcast is hopefully people can slow it down and listen back to it and listen to it through a few times but it is always worth supplementing with the and i have to be careful how i phrase this the the good information guides that you can go through step by step that are available online hopefully talking you through it gives you a sense but you're going to do the step by step it's better to follow something that's written yeah i mean we should get donna back she was able to run through uh where you can get this information yeah well we we should do i'm not sure i'm allowed to do that there's loads of questions on this i think council tax one of the things that people find a bit overwhelming so it's good to good to break it down well it's what do you know i was just talking to Adrian about this as we finished off air.

1:01:32There's an argument that this is real flaw in democracy, because clearly the system is unfair and it's badly structured, but there aren't particular votes in fixing it, even though there's fairness in fixing it. Because if you do change the system, there will always be a lot of winners, but there will also always be a lot of losers. And losers tend to be more vocal and more upset about a problem than winners are grateful. Politics is inelastic, it doesn't work on both ways which is one of the reasons why we're still sitting with this 1991 valuation dictating the position everyone's in. Anyway, let's do those questions.

1:02:07So this one from Maria in North Yorkshire I started the process of questioning my council tax band and my council told me in no uncertain terms they would happily do this but strongly advise that it could be re-banded to a higher band in which case that would be backdated and I'd be liable to pay the difference. Is this true? It's interesting, we don't often see a backdated of an up banding. I haven't heard that happen very many times, but it's certainly possible that it could happen. But this goes back to the premise I've been talking. You are only asking for them to reassess your band, which is why you need to be really diligent on going through the entire process of the first two checks and then the whole challenge mechanism of finding identical or if not very similar properties to you that are in a lower band than yours and making sure that you've done that sense check of the valuation check to check that it isn't that those properties are in the wrong band rather than you are in the wrong band.

1:03:02If you've done all of those things, then you know, you've got your commitment, go for it. But if you haven't done all the checks, you should never be doing this speculatively because your band can be put up. Sandra wants to know, can I get a reduction if I get attendance allowance? So there's no direct reduction for attendance allowance. Attendance allowance is another underclaimed benefit, a non-means-tested benefit for people of state pension age who need help of support either during the day or during the night or both. But the fact that you need attendance allowance could be evidential that you have a severe mental impairment.

1:03:38But I don't know the reason that you get attendance allowance. If attendance allowance is only for a physical disability, then it probably wouldn't, it won't be evidential of you're needing a severe mental impairment. But if it is due to something that affects your social functioning, then it could be. It's also worth noting for people with physical disabilities that you are able potentially, if you have to make adjustments to your property, to have your council tax band lowered because you've made adjustments to your property. But that is then reassessed on a year by year basis. Attendance allowance in its own right does not give you a council tax benefit.

1:04:12All I'm saying is it may be evidence that you might be entitled to a severe mental impairment council tax discount. Sharon's actually been in touch. She is asking, why is my son's council tax the same as mine? I have a two bed house. His flat is literally smaller than my upstairs. Well, what you haven't said to me is where his flat is. Right. So bands are location based as well and age based and many other factors. So if his flat's next door to you, then that would seem unjust. If his flat is in a different area that's potentially more expensive, it would seem less unjust. So it's very difficult to say, but why?

1:04:44Because this is the system based on valuations back in 1991, assuming you're in England and Scotland, and he may well be in the wrong band. So he should absolutely be going through the two checks, the neighbour's check and the valuation check I started the programme with, to see if he is in the wrong band. But it is perfectly possible he isn't. And Karen wants to know, how is it fair that houses worth millions pay less than a house worth£350 ,000 in different areas? Well, clearly it isn't fair, but that's the system that we have. And there are always going to be problems in any form of system.

1:05:17So, you know, you could have a local income tax, but then the people who earn most, who tend to use the system less, would say this is unfair because I'm paying more because I've got more income, but I access council services less. You can have a poll tax where it's done per head, but when there's a lot of people living in the house, they would argue they don't use five times the services. Why should they pay five times as much? I mean, on an absolutely certain basis, there has been huge change in property prices in the UK since the 1991 valuations, and that hasn't been taken into account. So there's clearly a lack of fairness in that.

1:05:49And clearly there are problems that it's council by council, but then some would argue, hey, you choose and elect your council, so that's a function of local democracy. But that's all getting into the political theory, and I think I'm going to basically swiftly whistle, walk away, not get involved in the middle of that, and try and just focus on the way that council taxes we currently have it is administered, and the problems with that, and trying to save people money on it. But yeah, fair. What is fair? Discuss. Colin sent this one in saying, how do you challenge a new build house? New builds are always trickier, because they weren't valued back in 1991.

1:06:25However, assuming the valuation was done right when the new build was set up, intuitively I would think there are fewer errors in valuing new builds than there are in older properties because the valuation, one would hope, would have been done properly by the Valuation Office Agency when the new build was set up, as opposed to the second gear valuation system that was put in place in 1991, which was only meant to be a quickly done stopgap. So I think it is always more difficult with a new build property. And we need to start from the premise that it is perhaps, and that's only an intuitive, not an evidential statement, that it is perhaps less likely to be in the wrong band because the system of valuation was different.

1:07:08If you are going to do it, you would start with a neighbours check. First of all, are you in a different band to all neighbours in similar or identical properties? Are you in a higher band? Then you would go on to the valuation check and you would work out back calculating what your property was worth in 1991, even though it didn't exist when. And that's what the online tools do for you. They take a price, you say, well, my property was worth 220 ,000 when I bought it in 2011. And it converts that using standard house price inflation, taking it back the other way to what it was worth back in 1991.

1:07:41And that would give you a second sense check. Therefore, you are actually going through the same process. But it is just more difficult because then finding identical properties elsewhere where outside, if you were a one-off build, as opposed to within an estate, can be more difficult too. I go back to what I started the programme with. The system is imperfect and I can't fix everything. So I would only go forward with your challenge if you are really strongly seeing evidence that you are in the wrong band if you're in the new build. If you're not sure, I would probably stamp and swear a bit and get on with my life.

1:08:15Well, so Angela in Orkney, and I don't know if being in Scotland sort of changes this, She's sort of worried about whether or not she should challenge. So are houses in band B unchanged since 1993? There are similar sized houses in the area on band A, but we built a small extension five years ago. Would the extension be taken into account if we challenge? Yes, but almost certainly you can't challenge anyway. You've been living in the property for over six months. It's virtually impossible to do in Scotland. There's no informal challenge route. So again, stamp, swear, get on with your life. This anonymous one.

1:08:48it is hard to identify sales prices pre-1991, which is the information required to challenge it? No, again, I need to be very technical. The valuation check of sales prices pre-1991 is not evidential when you're challenging your band. It's a safety check for you to know whether it's you who is in too higher band or your neighbours in similar or identical properties who are in too lower band. As for finding it, what you would need to do is look at the sales price of a similar or identical property post 1991 or more recently and then convert that into 1991 prices so you don't actually have to do it it's but remember it's just a safety check valuations don't really work in the appeal system it's more about you are in an unfairness of being in a higher band uh compared to neighbors in similar properties or identical properties preferably so maggie actually got in touch with a success story to end on we challenged our band in in 2012 when martin first highlighted the issue.

1:09:46We had been on band F for 17 years. The neighbours in an identical house were on band E. We had a rebate of£8 ,500. The reduced payments since then have saved us over£20 ,000. Wow. Well, well done. And well done for everybody who's gone through the process. It's not a simple process to do in some cases. It is in other cases. It's always worth doing a check. I hope it hasn't been too complicated for you today. I've tried to do my best. I even got into talking quite slowly and seriously at one point to try and get it across. So I hope you've enjoyed it. Thanks everybody for listening.

1:10:22And that's it for this week. If you've enjoyed it, please tell your friends you've been listening to the Martin Lewis podcast. We tend to put a new episode out every Thursday. Subscribe to keep up to date and your pockets will be pleased with you. And do please share this one on council tax. It's so widely misunderstood. I do hope this will break it down in bite-sized chunks that people can work out whether they're paying the right amount or not. Take care. See you next week.

1:11:13podcast at bbc.co.uk. The offers and rates mentioned in the podcast are correct at the time of recording. However, if you are listening on demand, it's worth double checking as details can date. Remember to subscribe on BBC Sounds and leave us a review however you listen.