The Scams Epidemic: A Martin Lewis Podcast Special

29:43You will have accounts that have been opened by criminals. They will have used false documentation and so on and so forth. That's going to be more rare nowadays. You know if you open an account somewhere you're scanning your ID, you're doing all those checks. You also get people that have been essentially conned themselves into becoming a money mule. So they will be there being tricked into giving someone their card and access to their account for a small fee or because of some other kind of involvement they've got with that person. You might then also find that there are criminal networks that all use people's accounts legitimately.

30:12They might be using businesses and so on and so forth to launder that money through. So it's a complicated situation. But in general, one of the things that really is balancing out in the regulations we talked about that started in the 7th of October, those receiving banks for the first time will be taking that liability as part of that. So they will be encouraged by that process to take more of that responsibility on the accounts they've opened and managed. Now, we have these new banking push payment rules that we discussed with Dez. They cover scams where the money has been sent across or pushed across all banks, building societies, e-money firms and saving providers are included.

30:44It means that you'll get a refund up to£85 ,000. The limit had been set by the payment services regulator at£415 ,000, which was a good one. It was lobbied down. I think that was a mistake. You may well disagree. I want to talk to you, though, about the excess, because firms have the option to charge an excess of up to£100. Nationwide, TSB and Virgin say they won't charge an excess. You, as in Santander, amongst others, Barclays and Chase and Co-op, say you may charge the£100 excess. Why? So we'll apply the excess on those cases based on whether the customer's vulnerable or not as well, which is part of the regulation.

31:23and that really is to make sure that we can ensure that where we're managing customers and their payments, they're taking the right controls in the warnings that we're doing on our website. So why do you feel they should lose£100? So as part of the process, I think what we're really trying to manage here is there are some real problems in the way in which people are managing their payments and we do a lot of our work to really focus on making sure that people are protected when they're using their account. The smaller value payments are often purchases, they're often small payments at the start of a run of payments that a fraudster may encourage a customer to make.

31:53And in the main, there will be small value purchase scams, which will often recover the funds on anyway, and we may have protected them. And it's£100 total excess, not£100 per payment, is it? Right,£100 per each case. OK, well, I mean, that's a decision of profitability. I have lots of other things I'd like to ask you, but I actually want to do some questions that we've had that people have written in. So I have Andy here. If I get a call supposedly from my bank, how can I be sure it really is them? There's some really simple advice. I think if you get a call from someone pretending to be your bank, my advice is always to hang up.

32:24And I know full well that my name has been used to call people. There are a couple of ways to do that. One is if you've got your debit card. Hang up politely. Hang up politely. Sorry, hang up very politely, of course, because it may be them genuinely. But you can also dial 159 straight from your phone, which will take you through to your bank if you just tell them your name. So I would go even further than that. I would always try, if your bank's called you saying it wants some information, I would always call it back. I would preferably call it back on a different phone, just in case that they are keeping the dial number on.

32:51So you then think you're calling your bank back, but they are staying on the line and they're faking a dial number. If you don't have another phone, you could wait 10 or 15 minutes or you could call a family member first because if you go and call your husband or your wife or your kid, then you know that they're not on the line and then you call the bank. And that 159 number, a diagonal line from the top left to the bottom right of your phone keyboard will then put you through to most banks. So you dial it and it's been done as an anti-scan prevention measure. I'm fully supportive of it. One, five, nine.

33:22Taylor Evie, I'm getting to the point where I'm worried that every single thing, whether on the phone or in the post, is a scam. How do you identify it? It's not the worst attitude to have. It's terrible for commerce. It's why I've lobbied for many advertisers out there for years to look at their social media advertising and know that they're up next to these scams. What do you do? You're the head of fraud. I mean, this is your life. How do you check out whether something's legit or not? I think it's really difficult as the question asks, which is how are you ever going to prove that something is genuine?

33:51I think we're completely and utterly, every single person who's got a mobile phone, an email address, a social media account has been the intended victim of a scam. In general, those things that come to you, you should probably already be aware of. Nothing will come to you out of the blue. So if it's a bank statement or a notification, you've got that that way. What you need to be looking out for is someone trying to get you the information. So get your information from you. so that could be asking you for your name and address details where they'd already have it that could be asking you for payment details where you wouldn't be expecting them and how i always think about it is are they trying to get you to do something you wouldn't normally do making a payment giving out information and in reality i tend to assume that if there really is a problem i'll be notified through a genuine channel so for a bank for example push notification in your mobile app is always going to be the best thing that you can get because you know that's come directly from them on the app.

34:37Absolutely. And, you know, be very careful when someone is trying to get you to click a link or if it's someone you've not heard from has sent you a text and they're asking you to send stop, you have to be aware that by sending stop, you've just notified that you're a real mobile phone number and you could get more scams on the back. I mean, it's all very, it is a really difficult minefield. Jane Mace, and I get this one, I'm concerned that my bank warns every single online transaction I do could be a scam. So there doesn't seem to be any identification of the risk level on their part. I assume other banks are doing the same.

35:08They certainly are. It isn't helpful to the customer. We are overloaded by anti-scam messages that there's a worry that it's being done to legally protect you rather than being done on a more intellectual and intelligent way in order to help us identify when there is a risk or not. I understand how that feels as someone who designed a lot of those warnings. yeah um what i would say is they have changed over time so a few years ago where we have put those warnings on that was the first way really of getting a customer to understand if you're buying something this is the type of risk you're taking if you're making a payment for an invoice this is the kind of risk they've now developed into much more dynamic questions so what we now have is those parts of our process that might say are you buying something off a social media marketplace do these things they're much more instructive rather than a warning and to be very clear they're not there to avoid any kind of you know any kind of liability they're really there to protect the customer and they're there to do that because it's much easier for us to prevent a fraud than have to manage the victim of the fraud after it's happened just if it makes anybody feel better out there i on many occasions have had to call a bank to move money and i've had to have you know when they you read the message there's a long script that they've been given that they have to read to check it's not a scam and the person on the other end of the line has realized it's me as in they know it's Martin Lewis off telly or off radio or off this podcast.

36:27And they're going, I'm sorry, I have to read this to you. You may not be aware that there are scammers who impersonate. I'm like, yeah, we have to go through the whole script. So, yeah, but then again, that's, you know, it's this friction that we have, both with money laundering and scam versus easy, accessible and swift payments. And it is a friction. And I'm afraid the cost of the criminality and frankly, the cost of our under-resourcing our police forces and the cost of our lack of regulations on social media that means that we are a wild west and a euphoric place for scammers to steal money off people without being prosecuted is why we all pay for it with slow banking transactions.

37:03I think there's a part of it that there is an ecosystem there. So the frauds can start on social media, but there really is things that the financial industry can do as well. That is collaboration between the organisations. That's more work together. That might be changes to our payment system itself. And those are things that over the next few years you will really start to see some changes on. Michelle, I got a call from a scammer that pretended to be the fraud team from my bank and managed to tell me what my last three transactions were. How did she know? The red flag was up when she asked for the one-time password.

37:33I hung up. What do you think? How would that happen? Or is that perhaps legit? I think there's a couple of ways it could happen. Yeah. One of those could be that they've already got some of her details and managed to potentially log into something to see what those were. But the one-time password was potentially to make a payment. Shoulder surfing on a mobile phone and Nick to mobile phone. It could be a mobile phone. The most common scams that we see and the ones where you will get someone impersonating a bank and certainly the ones where they were impersonating me were off the back of a text message from a delivery company.

38:01And literally the details were put in and the card transaction details were put in and they knew what bank it was just from the first few digits of the card. And that's how they got through the mail. And other thing, people, don't put too much of your private information on your social media accounts, your date of birth, your maiden names, all of these things that are commonly used because then if they've managed to do that scamming, your phone number, they've now got your name because they said you owe us£1.20, please pay us. So you've paid them on a card without realising it. And then they can work out what your social media is and they can put them all together.

38:28And you've used an obvious password or passcode. You know, you're starting to get quite close. Chigsaw identification, they call it. Only a couple of those things to really make sure that someone does believe who you say you are on the phone. Mary, regarding the banks, why don't they check people properly before giving them a card machine? I got scammed by a person posing as a well-known sports company with a fantastic sale. I paid by credit card online the goods didn't turn up although the false tracker system said they're derived I contacted the company and it no longer existed the bank reimbursed me but had they done their homework it would have saved a lot of money and grief so again it goes back why are these type of accounts and I'm sure we don't know you know you are just one bank but we've got you here so may as well you understand this industry better than I do on that side on the fraud side in the example that's been described there that's obviously someone setting up a company taking a card transaction obviously that person would be covered for goods and services not received through a chargeback process or depending on how they'd used the card but in in terms of in general there are huge amounts of you know identification and verification processes that are required they're never going to be always perfect and one of the things that we need to remember is that this is a layered approach to how these banks are adopting it so there might be transaction monitoring they've got in place identifying re-identifying those people it would be very interesting to understand what that particular fraud was because we've had a huge number of social media triggered shopping scams recently that we've publicised as well, where someone thinks they're buying a dress or a pair of shoes online for a bargain price.

39:54What ends up happening is their card is compromised and used somewhere else. So the amount of these frauds that are happening, they vary, but there's always a new one out there. And final one, Dawn, please cover SIM swap fraud. Are you worried about the growth of SIM swap fraud? I mean, because of course, this is one time password codes come through your SIM. Where's that figuring on your warning radars at the moment? SIM swap fraud's been around a long time. The use of one-time passwords via SMS going back 10, 15 years has meant that SIM swap fraud was one of the core ways you could get around that control.

40:25What I would say is most organisations that use SMS in some way, they have controls over that, and we can identify, based on when we send the message, whether or not your SIM has been swapped. So if you have recently changed your phone, you might find that if you're using SMS, you might find the bank having a conversation with you about that transaction. We won't ask you for more details than that because we don't want to give any information to the people who are trying to scam people out there. Certainly not. But I will nod and agree. So while I've still got Chris here, what I want to do now is give you my top tips to protect yourself against scams.

40:53I'm not going to include the old saying, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. But that's what you have to remember on all this. Chris, if you give me a nod, if there's anything you want to add to these. I'm going to start with fake HMRC tax refunds. If you get an email, a suspicious text or a WhatsApp or voicemail or phone call from HMRC, it isn't them. Ignore it. Don't go anywhere near it. You will be contacted formally if you're owed a tax refund or if you owe them tax. HMRC warns very carefully about these scams and that can generally apply to all forms of official communications.

41:30People use these more official bodies to try and scare you into reacting quickly. always go and legitimately check on the website that you've independently searched and found their own web details or contact them via a phone number that you found yourself not via the phone number that they've given that's a big thing if they send a phone number to call don't dial their phone number even if it's legit go find the number yourself and dial through that way beware hyperlinks on the internet a hyperlink is the link that you click now i could very easily set up a hyperlink that said bbc.co.uk and underneath the underlying link went to itv.co.uk.

42:09That is very easy to do, or vice versa. I'm not favouring one or the other. My podcast is on one, my TV show's on the other, but you can do that. So if you want to be a bit more sophisticated, if you hover your mouse over the link, you can see the underlying link it's sending you to, and it's the bit just before the dot com that matters. For example, I had one the other day which said something like defraud-x.com that was pretending to be from X or Twitter as it now is, but it wasn't from X, it was defraud-x, which is not the same as X. So I thought instantly it's a scam. But if you're not sure, just be very careful and be aware that those can easily be manipulated.

42:47Watch out for fake deals on your social media. Look for spelling and grammar issues, although they're getting better unfortunately because of AI. And even if the images look legit, always then independently go to one of those shops or service companies websites yourself. Be very wary again if you've been asked to pay up front. You should never have to pay to access prizes or funds that you are due. Anybody asking you to pay to access your own money is very, very dodgy. I can't think of any real situations where they're going to do that, barring you're working for a solicitor who has to pay a fee for convincing or something like that, that you've self-appointed.

43:23But no one who's getting in touch with you that you don't know to do that sounds like the legit at all. So on the social media marketplaces or social media, paying for something via a bank transfer should be relatively unusual. Most things you'll click on. Debit or credit card is the way to go for most of those firms. And if you're seeing things, especially on a sort of marketplace post for tickets or for luxury goods or potentially for a car as well, don't pay for it until you've touched it. That's the advice we give you. That's the advice you'll get on one of those warnings we talked about on the show earlier.

43:51And I think your bank transfer notes important even outside the world of scams. Yeah. because you have some protection for scams. But someone spoke to me the other day, they paid for an Airbnb, they'd done this on a bank transfer, the house had now been bought, so it probably isn't a scam, but the new person isn't necessarily giving them a refund. So that probably wouldn't come under your push payment scam authorisation because it wasn't a scam. And you have far less protection on a bank transfer than you do on a credit card especially, but a debit card also. So always your strongest payment protection is debit or credit card.

44:25whether it's a scam or not and so I'm cash and check you get zip so I would always strongly urge you to look at if you're going to pay for retail goods if they're asking for bank transfers why why do they want a bank transfer secondly you've already mentioned the fake sites that are for shopping so you'll see a you know an advert for a dress that might look like the genuine site what I would say is those particular types of scams are quite insidious they won't just take your card details and steal another transaction they often behind the scenes will try and register your card for apple pay or google pay you know they're registering other things in the background so they are really quite dangerous in the way they happen often we pick them up and we'll speak to the customer but you you are not really understanding what's going on behind the scenes on those qr codes qr codes very easy to defraud a qr code stick another qr code over the legitimate one so just be very careful what url what link you're actually being sent to what i I would recommend is if you're paying for parking, something like that, you'll usually find that they're all very similar apps, pay by phone or some of the others.

45:27Use the app rather than trying to use the scam by the QR code. Look out for elderly friends or relatives. If you're concerned, there's a wonderful website called thinkjessica.com that can really help and shows how some elderly people can become serious victims of scams. We talked before about social conditioning and brainwashing. Unfortunately, for many elderly people who tend to, as they get older and dementia starts to set in can be much more trusting they're very easy to be pulled into scams when they believe more people than they would otherwise and it can we've had cases in the case of jessica in the think jessica name itself is where a lady whose mother was believing the scam was more than her own daughter and it caused huge family problems which is why she set up the charity banks do not call people like that you know they'll be sending push notifications in the mobile app they might be sending other things to you if you get a phone call from someone potential bank no bank is going to mind whatsoever if you say to that person i'm going to call you back through the genuine number and 159 is the perfect solution yeah you can even even and if it is genuine you could say once i get through what's the best way to get to your department because let them tell you if it's a scammer it doesn't matter because you're going to get through to the the proper department anyway but i would never talk to my bank when they've called me apart from to say i will call you back just a couple before you go a couple of quick things And this may be things that politically you're not able to say, but I'm going to ask you anyway.

46:49Do we resource our police well enough in this country to deal with fraud and scams? Fraud is 40 odd percent of all reported crime. From a banking perspective, there is a funded police force, the City of London Police, the DCPCE, who are dedicated to these kind of cases, but there's no way they can support all of the frauds that we see. And there is no way that there is support for all the frauds that can be reported for every single person to be investigated and treated in the same way across the country. Is it fair to say, well, I would always recommend people report their crimes to action fraud, and you want a police number especially, so it's important to do.

47:21Often nothing will happen from the police on that side. And this isn't a go at individual police officers. This is about the resourcing that we put into fraud in this country. I think from a scale perspective, it's most likely that you're not going to get on an individual case traction. What I have found, especially over the last few years, is where we've managed to gather those cases together and put them to the police, they have taken some action. When there's a sort of systemic fraud that's going on. And fraud is usually organised, let's be very clear. So there's been a lot of media over some of the larger sort of cases, even that we've done through banks and the police and some foreign organisations to take out some big networks of scammers.

47:55But again, there are larger cases and there might be lots of small frauds linked to that, but the original victim may never have found out that they were part of that investigation. And on a similar vein, regulation of online websites, is it strong enough to protect people from fraud at the moment? I think we need to understand where a lot of the scams and frauds that we're talking about start. And we've already mentioned it several times. Social media is one of the biggest drivers of all of the fraud we see. It's outside of the financial system. And where there's not a direct connection between the payment you or I might make on our mobile app to what's going on outside of that, there's always going to be a problem.

48:26So bringing firms into that ecosystem or whatever you want to call it to be part of that journey. And to be responsible. And so they are fundamentally part of the answer is a core thing that we need to do. And that really is a case of explaining what is going on in all parts of that journey. So if I wanted to be able to report a fraud today, I'd been scammed on a social media website. Do I report it to my bank? Because that's where I made the payment. Do I report it to the police? Do I report it to that social media platform? It's unclear what should happen. My advice, go straight to your bank.

48:55Get that sorted first. But in reality, you're unlikely to get much of a response from anyone else at the moment. Well, you report to your bank, make sure you get a police number and report it on the social media website as well, because it might stop someone. It's not going to help you, but as a sort of social policing, it might help somebody else if it's eventually taken down. Chris, I really think it's important that someone in your position, head of fraud at Santander, is coming out, is talking these issues, you know, is taking the questions, whether it's a bit more difficult about your own institution.

49:23But it's also telling people how it works from your end. So I'm very appreciative for you coming on the podcast. Thank you very much. So we've heard the impact that scams have, and we've heard to an extent the frustration that one of the big banks has about the way that scams work. Well, the organisation tasked with dealing with that is the regulator Ofcom. So it's probably time to talk to them. Now, I'm very pleased to be joined by Lindsay Fussell, who is Group Director for Online Safety at the regulator Ofcom. and Ofcom is taking responsibility for this huge online sector. I mean, it's a big job, isn't it?

50:02It is a big challenge, but we've got the Online Safety Act in place now and we're very much seeing next year as a year of action where we can get the rules in place and we can finally start to hold platforms to account for what they're doing to protect users. So you say that's 2025 when you think we'll be starting to get this in place, but that's not really going to happen until 2026 for scam adverts, is it? It's true that the Act has always been implemented in phases. So the first phase, which is really important for fraud, is a legal harms code, and that's going to be published in December. And that means from next spring, platforms will have to do a range of things.

50:43For the first time, they're going to have to risk assess their platforms about what kind of harmful content's on there, and they'll have to take steps to deal with that. and that will include things like making it easy for users like you and me to report where we think we've seen scams or fraud. It will mean that they have to have properly trained and resourced content moderation teams so they can take the content down. And they'll also have to have a trusted route for organisations like law enforcement to be able to go to platforms and say that they've seen scam content and it needs to be dealt with.

51:17So that's the first phase, but there is more to come as you say. You're talking about harms. Can you define what is counted as a harm and what isn't counted as a harm when we're talking about scam adverts and scam content? Absolutely. So Parliament has set out what they call priority illegal harm. So particular kinds of harm that they want us to focus on. And one of those is fraud. You're absolutely right that this first phase is what's called user generated. It's an awful phrase. But what that means is if somebody like you or I upload something onto a site, And that could be, say, something on Facebook Marketplace, you know, wanting to sell something which doesn't actually exist.

51:57It could be a romance scam. It could be somebody, you know, trying to persuade somebody to engage with them, to persuade them that they, you know, that they need to transfer money to them. And that's the type of content that's caught by this first phase. Scam ads is caught by the final phase, and that's where the fraudulent advertising code comes in, which is going to apply to the largest platforms. So there's a couple of things I just need to pick up then. So scam ads, which is the main thing we're talking about here, we're talking 2026. That's right. So important to explain. So scam ads, that's about paid-for adverts.

52:37So the ones that these big platforms, these big international tech companies, the ones that they make money from and they make money from scam advertisers who then have criminally affect victims, hundreds of thousands across this country, we're not touching them. We're letting them do that till 2026. So important to explain a bit about how that's, what the plan is there. As I say, that's always been intended to be the final phase of the Act. It's actually up to government and parliament to set the thresholds for which platforms are caught by that. The last government wasn't able to do that before the election, didn't do that.

53:13and so the election has delayed things. We're very much hoping that legislation is going to be put in place very soon and that will then enable us to take action and we hope to, subject to that, be able to publish our first consultation on that at the back end of next year. Now I'm torn here because you can probably hear I'm pretty angry about how long this has all been taking. It's been years since I sued Facebook. None of this is a new issue. We've lived in this Wild West with this scam epidemic for years in the country. But I am also aware, as you know, I was the main voice lobbying for scam adverts to put in the Online Safety Act, which they were not originally in the Online Safety Act.

53:47That's right. I am aware that much of the sloth comes from the timetable you have been set rather than from your own sloth. I am aware Ofcom is doing what Ofcom has to do at the pace that it's been set. We have seen some delays to 2026. It could have been a bit quicker, but that's what you've been told to do, which is deeply frustrating. The second bit I want to pick up just so people understand. So let's be really plain. I'm going to ask you a question. And I know you're here to represent an organisation. But honestly, if you went online now and you saw an advert, would you trust it? Well, I'd certainly want to think about what there was to make me trust it.

54:27And actually, I would say this isn't just about ads. As you know, Ofcom also deal with scam calls and texts. And we've been doing that for quite a bit longer. I think, you know, the first piece of advice I'd give to anybody whenever they see something is to think just to stop and think. I think the thing is that the way our communication systems are designed is to be really seamless, isn't it? To kind of make us do things quickly. And that's fantastic in lots of ways. But I think what we're seeing is that criminals are using using that precisely to pray and exploit on exploiters. So actually that stopping thinking, does that look right?

55:01What's there to is there any way I can check whether that looks sensible? is the first piece of advice I'd give to anybody. When I talk about advertising on online platforms, social media platforms, I call it a wild west. Am I wrong? Well, I think, you know, what we know is that around nine in ten adults in the UK tell us that they've seen something online. I'm not wrong. Which they think could be a scam or a fraud. Doesn't mean that they've all, you know, they've necessarily fallen for that. But there's no doubt that there is a huge amount of this content out there. And that, you know, there is huge amounts to do.

55:32And we are very much looking forward to the point where we can have our rules in place, that we can hold platforms to account for that. And we've got powerful enforcement powers if they don't step up to the mark. Translation, you don't have any enforcement coming in for these type of platforms until 2026. It really is still the Wild West out there because there are a few protections at the moment. I just want to make it, I get you have your lines that you have to say, but let's just be very plain. There are very few protections from scam adverts out there for people on social media right now. Fraudulent advertising code, you're absolutely right, is not going to be in place until 2026.

56:11And that fraudulent advertising code only covers the biggest players, doesn't it? That's right. That's the structure of the Act. So there was meant to be, and again, you'll know I was involved in lobbying and pushing for better regulation when the Act was coming in place. The talk was there would be an online advertising code, which would be separate and would be brought in place to protect people on the, you know, outside those giant international tech firms, all the other sites that people use from scam adverts. I've not heard anything on that. Have you heard anything on that? That one, I'm afraid, is a matter for the government.

56:44It was always the government that was taking forward that work. So I'm afraid that's one you'd have to put to them. But you haven't heard anything. You haven't been told to put that in place. Ofcom isn't putting that in place because you don't have. So I just want to be very plain so people listening understand this. We will have to wait until 2026 before the biggest platforms are covered by Ofcom regulation over scam advertising. Paid for advertising, that's right. Paid for scam, of course. As I say, you know, we do really believe that the illegal harm stuff that is coming in much earlier, we can enforce on that from next spring, will have a material impact on all sorts of problems, including fraud.

57:22I'm not attacking your organisation. I'm attacking our entire legal and regulatory structure around scams in this country here. Until 2026, paid for scam advertising, you are not protected online. After 2026, you will only be protected on the very biggest platforms and there will continue to be a wild west for all the smaller platforms out there. There is no regulation that covers those smaller platforms on paid for advertising. That's right. Yeah. Okay. It's not your fault. I'm not attacking you as an individual. I'm not even particularly attacking Ofcom because you can only use the powers that you have been given.

57:59But it's an absolute something show is what I'd like to say about it in reality. Let me move on. Isn't one solution here that we need to include proper verification of advertisers on all of these platforms? We allow advertising to be done too quickly and too easily. I mean, that these big tech firms, they're not saying we want scammers on our platforms. They're saying we want to make it easy for anyone to advertise, which makes it easy for scammers to advertise. So if you go to traditional media, television, for example, they have to pre-vet everybody who shows an advert on television. Why doesn't Facebook, why doesn't X, why doesn't Instagram have to pre-vet its advertisers and say you're having an approved advertiser or you're not approved advertiser?

58:41Are we going to change the rules on that? Well, I think that's exactly the kind of thing that we're going to be wanting to look at as part of the code that we've been talking about. I think what you're talking about is those kind of know your customer checks, right, where actually you can't just accept content from anyone. You've actually got to know who's giving it to you and have done some checks and some due diligence on that. It's the same thing that we ask telecoms companies to do when they're thinking about who they're using numbers for, for example. So I think that's a really important part of it.

59:09And then I think the second really important thing to think about is when you get when you get reports that perhaps your platform or your telephone, your telephone system is being used by bad, by bad people, by criminals. Let's be clear. Then you actually do something about that really quickly. Thank you, Lindsay. I've got more questions for you, but I just want to do a couple from listeners, if that's OK. Of course. So this one is from Marie. She says, why are companies not held to account for allowing UK numbers to be presented as the dialing number from outside the UK when any legitimate use of number masking, call centres on behalf of a business, have to fill out forms and register their illegitimate use?

59:49They have the power to block calls and don't, leading to scammers accessing victims. This could totally be avoided. So outside UK numbers being presented as UK, Are you going to do something about that number masking? Well, the good news is we have. So in landline calls, we've now told telecoms companies to block exactly those calls, other than a few legitimate cases like call centres. Those calls that have come from overseas and look to have a UK number should be blocked. BT, just to give you an example of that, tell us that in the first month they blocked a million calls. So that gives you a sort of sense of the scale of the amount of calls that are being blocked.

1:00:28I should say it's a bit more complicated for mobile because if you think about it, when you or I are overseas and we call home, that's exactly going to look like a UK number coming from overseas. So the next thing we're working on, and actually this is something that regulators all know. So they can just buy cheap UK roaming tariffs and go and use them abroad to spoof a UK number. So the thing that regulators across the world are working on now is how we can tackle that problem. Because what we're seeing is since we put these in, a bit of a movement from landline spoofing into mobile. So that's the next big thing to tackle.

1:00:57But on landlines, that's already in place. I mean, and this is part of the problem, isn't it? This is international organised crime with big money raking in big money. You're not it's not some guy in the back of a shop somewhere having a go. They're sophisticated. They're commercially sophisticated. They're psychologically sophisticated. Is Ofcom really the right regulator for this job? I understand on telecoms it is. But wouldn't it have been better on the online side, which is so big and so sophisticated in its own right, to have had a specialist regulator? I mean, we've almost got mission creep.

1:01:30Ofcom is going to have to become so big to cope with this. Can you cope? I know you'll say you have to, but can you? Well, I think we can. You know, I think there's actually quite, if you think of what Ofcom has been working on, actually, since it was first founded about 20 years ago, we've always worked with telecoms companies. is we've always worked with broadcasters. And a lot of all of those activities have gone online. So a lot of our work already is in that online space. And so we've already had to start working out how we're going to tackle these questions. I think, you know, we're building up, we've built up a really great team to take on our online responsibilities.

1:02:08We've hired people both from the platforms themselves, but also from law enforcement and elsewhere. I think the other thing though, I'd want to be really clear is that we are not going to solve this on our own. Part of this, particularly when it comes to things like scams and fraud, is the need to work really closely with government, with law enforcement, with other regulators like the Financial Conduct Authority. This one is something that we all have to play our part in tackling. It's interesting for me. And I think the regulatory industry, but whether it's official regulators like yourself or, you know, trade body regulators like the Advertising Standards Authority have been very slow to adapt on this.

1:02:45I need to be honest. I remember when I first complained about scams using my name to the ASA, and they said, well, we can only regulate advertisers who will agree to abide by our rules. What's the point? What's the point of a regulator? So I don't think people were set up. You know, you talked about broadcasters and telecoms companies. Yes, in a way, it's quite easy to regulate ITV and Virgin and Vodafone. I mean, you'd probably say it isn't, but at least you could go to a chief executive who've got a responsibility to a PLC and legal directors regulation. it's very difficult to some organised criminal sitting 3 ,000 miles away who's trying to tackle it's a very different job isn't it?

1:03:22Well actually when you think about scams and fraud on telecoms that we're talking about on your phone whether that's calls or texts that's exactly what we've been trying to work to tackle with for some years I mean I think you're absolutely right and if you talk to the National Crime Agency and others they will point out that this is actually this activity is covered for money laundering, for drugs, for serious organised crimes. So this is, you know, scams and fraud are an absolute scourge for the people who experience them, but they are also being used to, you know, to take forward all sorts of other, you know, crime that we find deeply, you know, is clearly deeply offensive and awful.

1:04:04So with that in mind, when it comes to scam adverts as opposed to the other harms, And look, I totally understand you're looking at child pornography and you're looking at other horrible issues that are going on out there. But the way to stop big platforms promoting scams is to make it more expensive for them to publish scams than not to publish scams so that you will find them more than they make from allowing easy, accessible advertising. You have the power to do that. How big would an issue have to be for you to do? it's 10 % of turnover, is that right? That's right, global turnover. 10 % of global turnover, which for a Facebook is, you know, tens of billions of pounds or probably more.

1:04:46How big would an issue have to be for you to start to try to use those powers? Oh, we'll be ready to use our enforcement powers straight away as soon as the rules come in. Of course, you know, we'll want to try and work with the platforms wherever we can to move them to compliance without the need for fines because that's the quickest way to get action. I'd love them to behave. It'd be much better. But if they won't, then we will absolutely be ready to use our enforcement powers and to levy fines if we have to. How do you levy a fine? Are you subject to a court challenge if you levy a fine, a judicial review?

1:05:22We can be appealed against for our fines. That's true across everything that Ofcom does. But the decision to investigate, to find a breach and to decide on the size of fine is Ofcom's to make. I'm going to do another listener question here now. This is from Adrian. I recently swapped from Sky to Virgin, so lost use of Sky Talk Shield. This was a great free deterrent to phone scammers as they would hear the automated voice and hang up. Virgin's equivalent? Nothing, nothing at all. So the scam calls flooded in from day one, and I do mean day one. So my question, why does Ofcom not insist that all providers provide an equivalent service, particularly to vulnerable customers like the elderly?

1:06:03There's loads of these kinds of products out there. Some of them absolutely are used by, you know, that phone companies have. Others you can find yourself and install. So there's an awful lot of these systems out there. But you're not going to make sure they have to have them for vulnerable customers and people on the priority service? Well, I think that's going to depend on the situation for each individual company. And I'd be interested to follow up and see what Virgin has in place, to be honest, to find out if there is a problem with how effective their system is. What I would say, though, is that those systems are only part of the solution.

1:06:42So they're great for picking up calls that have been blacklisted, for picking up numbers that have been blacklisted. It's obviously much more challenging if those numbers are spoofed, you know, being impersonated on, which is why we need the other measures we were talking about. And finally, I don't know of any system that's going to pick up every scam call. So, you know, if you think of a wall and people just throwing millions and millions of rocks at it every day, that's what people trying to use our phone and text systems looks like. Absolutely, we're there with others to try and strengthen that wall.

1:07:16But some of them will get through. And so people do have to carry on being vigilant and on their guard. I appreciate that. And I think we're never going to stop all scams. But the numbers and the volumes that we have in this country are horrific at the moment. And so the key is, you know, if we could not 90 % of them out, that would be a good start. So when I've met tech firms, you'll know I sued a tech firm over this. The answer they always give me is, well, the technology is very difficult, to which case my answer is technology, tech schmology. Right. I didn't ask you to use technology. If you, you know, if you have a requirement, then get people, individual human beings, they still exist, get them to manually vet these things.

1:07:53How have the tech companies responded to this regulation when you're dealing with them? Because I know we're talking about the regulation for scam ads coming in in 2026. But I presume before that, you'll be starting to embed yourself with these tech firms and make sure that they're getting the systems ready in advance. So we might see some behavioural improvements. Are they being responsive or are they still cold shouldering you because we're only in 2024? So, as we were talking about earlier, we've actually got rules coming in in 2025. five so absolutely we've already not not on the no but we've already there you know we've already had to start talking to the platforms um about the rules that are coming in and we've got um dedicated teams working with each of the of the large platforms to do that to understand how their systems currently work and to talk to them about what their plans are going to be to to come into compliance we're encouraged you know we have seen um uh some some platforms take action on on certain on certain kinds of problems.

1:08:49You'll have seen, people will have seen those announced in recent weeks and months. But, you know, we're not naive or complacent either. You know, we absolutely hope that platforms will work with us and they will come, you know, come to do what they should do to meet the rules. But if they don't, we are there and we have the powers to step in. Lindsay Fussell, Director for Online Safety at Ofcom. I really appreciate it. It's very important the regulator comes out and talks on these issues. I also accept that you can only do what your organisation has the power to do. And arguably, I think I probably have to go out there and push for you to have more powers.

1:09:22I wish it had all been done quicker, but there are so many firms who aren't going to be caught by the regulations in future. There is still a real danger even once you take over. I wish you the best of luck and more power to your organisational elbow with it. Thank you very much. Now, of course, we've been talking about lots of different types of scams, but actually understanding the granular detail of what scams are out there are important. And Nat West has just put out some research on the 10 fastest growing scams out there this year. So I'm going to go through them in good old top 10 type style for you.

1:09:57In number 10 is get rich quick investment schemes. These are fraudulent schemes that promise high returns with little risk or effort. They've been around a long time. In at number nine, deepfake celebrity endorsement scams. Well, of course, that's what we started this whole podcast about. So deepfake videos using AI where people are talking to you, telling you to invest in something. Be very careful. The lips are often the giveaway there. And number eight are refund scams where scammers claim you owe to refund. And they do that in order to steal your personal and your financial information so that when you click the link and you tell them what you need, then they can come back and attack your finances.

1:10:35Number seven, tax rebate scams. Been around for a long time. HMRC is never going to email you about a tax rebate in that way. It will tend to write to you. It will have a formal communication. Be very, very wary of anything offering you a fake tax rebate. And number six, cost of living assistance scams. We've seen this grow a lot this year. You get a link being sent through and information saying, click here and you're able to claim some money for the cost of living support that's available. Not true. It's not going to work in that sense. You know, winter fuel payment, it doesn't work. You can't click a link for winter fuel payment.

1:11:07that's about being eligible for pension credit. In at number five, event ticket scams. Well, it's been the year of Tay-Tay. Taylor Swift's been all over the place. Lots of big tickets sold everywhere. So no surprise, event ticket scams, counterfeit or non-existent tickets to popular events, gigs, concerts, or sport games are growing in the scammer sphere. Now in at number four is money requests from friends or family scams. This is where scammers pose as someone you know to urgently request. And urgent is always the key word. The more urgent it is, the more wary you should be because that is a classic indication of a scam.

1:11:39They don't want to give you thinking time. It's often through phone, email or social media. It's to try and exploit your trust. Number three, AI voice cloning scams. This is where victims are deceived by somebody they know's voice that has been cloned, asking for urgent money, often in desperation. It's very, very difficult for people. You have to be wary. You have to try and check on the back end. But And of course, if you hear from someone you love that they need money urgently, most people instantly go into a flight or fight response and want to try and help them. That's what the scammers are trying to manipulate horrible people that they are.

1:12:17And number two, social media marketplace scam. So Facebook marketplace, Instagram, TikTok, where people are selling things. Fake profiles are created. They advertise popular in-demand goods. Stolen photos from real sellers are quite common. And they list attractive offers to lure the vixens into making purchases. Again, be careful in what you're buying on social media marketplaces. Make sure that they are truly real. And number one, very devious, fake parcel delivery texts. This is where you get a little text saying you need to pay slightly more in order to get your goods. And people do it because it's only 86p.

1:12:56What does it matter? Oh, how frustrating. I don't know what the item is. I order lots of items. They click on it. They pay the goods. And you're putting your bank details in. You're putting your payment details in and you have just opened up the door to the organised criminal world that are scammers. If you're getting a text about delivery and you're not sure what the parcel is, please go and do your research and check whether it's something genuine or not before you're clicking the links. That's the top 10. So we've heard from the victim. We've heard from the banks. We've heard from the regulator.

1:13:30But this is a crime. So let's talk to the police. Now, I'm delighted to say joining me now is Commander Stephen Clayman, who is head of specialist crime for the Metropolitan Police Service. OK, I'm going to start harsh because for many years with my day job hat on, I have recommended that when people are scammed or defrauded, they contact action fraud. Now, I do that because that is part of the process that you should do. But in my view, the vast majority of people who go to action fraud get nothing from it. It is totally flaccid. Their crimes are not investigated and they feel very frustrated.

1:14:06That isn't a kick at the police or action fraud per se. I suspect it's primarily because the organisations are under-resourced. Is action fraud doing enough? Are the police doing enough on scams? Well, I'll answer it in two parts, I suppose. So action fraud is, you're right, the mechanism. and it is important that those who are affected by fraud do use that mechanism because not only does it report it, it teaches about methodology and tracking exactly what's happening. Does it do enough? Action fraud is changing. The City of London Police are the national lead on fraud and are probably the best place to talk about how it's changing and it is changing to a slightly different system, which I think will be more responsive to some of the things you're saying.

1:14:45But actually, we do need to consider how we investigate fraud and our ability to investigate what is a volume crime. There were 3.2 million fraud offenses in the year ending March 24. So a lot of... And that's what we know about. There's going to be more. It's the biggest single crime in the country by a mile. It's about 40 % of crimes. Just under 40%. What we've got to think about is the effective ways of investigating fraud. And actually, I think a lot of policing now, and through the City of London's leadership and the National Crime Agency, including forces like the Met, we know we've got to actually start taking the fight to the fraudsters.

1:15:17this means tackling so 70 percent of frauds have an overseas footprint for example we need to start taking that fight to them which is why there are several sort of more high profile investigations and operations that i can just briefly mention at some point so tell me now there's a few so operation elaborate we did um in 2022 was a platform called ice booth and this was a platform that allowed criminals to pretend to be a bank or whoever not who they purported to be would create fake noises of call centres behind them and effectively it was there to get a one-time passcode from a victim by purporting i need the you're going to send you a code all they were doing they were already in your account because your details have been sold and they were then using your this social engineering which is what these scammers do because they are very clever and then they elicit that information so what we did with elaborate we effectively got hold of the iceproof data exploited it and then we effectively took it down and we took the site down you turn their own data back on them and more than that we found the administrator he's now in custody for 13 years which actually for a fraud is quite a good sentence and we're going after because that is a frustration people i mean it's a frustration i have i mean i've spent years with my name and face being defrauded there have been bbc reports that have gone and said they know exactly who's doing it on many of the occasions that it's being used but these people aren't arrested and until we start arresting and punishing the scammers we're not going to stop scams are we no and i think it's not always quite as straightforward to identify who the person and where that fraud originates because what you do get is exploitation of particularly young people to use their accounts to pass the money through and that is then hidden that's mewling isn't it yeah and i think that it's more it is exploitation and what happens is they're hiding the trail and that's why frauds are actually quite complicated to unravel and get that volume sort of detection that you're talking about which is why things like Operation Lab, where over 200 people were arrested, Operation Stargrew we did this year, that took out a website which had 40 ,000 fake websites.

1:17:19You would go to this site and you would buy a product from them, which allowed you to set up a fake website. You would trick people into clicking on the website through phishing, obviously, you know, PH, not an FI. And what they would then do is be conned and tricked into leaving their personal details, which are then the subject of a later fraud. you know we had thousands and thousands of password compromises personal data which is then sold so we need to take that fight and what we did with stargrey we took them out in the same way you're giving me a couple of good cases and it's wonderful to hear those but there are still many of these people i mean we have had for a number of years the internet is a wild west yeah right and many of this is cross different national jurisdictions there is sort of a scammer's charter where many of them are getting away with impunity i mean what percent of these criminals do you think you're actually putting away it's a difficult it's going to be less than 10 but just go back to your earlier point you made there those two operations i talked about involved international partners this wasn't just uk based this was fbi this was europole and when we'd made arrests in the star group which i mentioned to you they were making arrests in canada in europe it was coordinated it wasn't exclusively uk that's to your point the extent of these frauds they reach internationally but we know that if you're living in london so from a met perspective you are being affected every day by these for these scams what percentage of these would you say are derived from big international organized crime groups and what percent are more local and on the doorstep well the the national crime agency report says that 70 of the frauds are have an international link okay so it's it's a huge volume and and that will often be outside of europe as well and outside and and yes are we are we finding any jurisdictions where it's more common, where we don't have good policing relations with them?

1:19:03Well, I know for a fact that the NCA and the City of London actively working on how we work with nations that we think have that threat. Because you're absolutely right. We need to work... So we have sort of certain control mechanisms in certain countries and we've got good relationships. Other countries might be more difficult. So there's two things to think about here, I would suggest. You've got the... How we take the fight to the criminals. But more importantly, how do we make sure that we're not all subject to frauds and scams you know scams are where we're tricked into into doing something like a push payment fraud and you know send the um give give the scammer the um your payment number we need to do more about understanding the social engineering that criminals use when you get that text that says click here your your package is lost you've got to pay a couple of pounds sounds very innocuous we need to i mean that was there There was genius in that particular scam because the low value, and people think, well, even if it's a scam, it's only 150, without people realising they're buying your identity and your card details.

1:20:04It's the first step to the next. And if they're not buying it, rather, you're paying to give them your identity and your card details. And the, hey mum, you know, I've lost my phone. We have criminals who have SIM farms who send out thousands of texts and it only takes a few. So the more we can do to make sure that we don't fall victim and fall foul. And one more point I would just make, we've also got to get over, the fact that there is no shame in being a victim of a fraud. The shame is in the criminals who conduct it, not those who fall foul of it. So we have many people listening to this podcast and we have a whole range.

1:20:37There'll be people who've been scammed. There'll be people who are worried they'll be scammed. And we also, because we are the nature of the podcast, we have many people out there who can spot a scam pretty easily and want to know, how do I help? So what would you say to those people who are listening to these pods, who are sophisticated individuals, and listen, anyone can fall victim of a scam. I could fall victim of a scam. But who are going, when they see an obvious scam online or somewhere, what should they do? How do they help you stop it? Well, the Stop Think Fraud website is a great place to go to.

1:21:11And you've got action fraud, of course, as well. So there's different mechanisms to report this. Let us know about it. So I'm talking about people who haven't been scammed, but know it's a scam. Go on to the Stop Think Fraud website as well, because let us know that there's a problem here. I suspect we probably do know about it because through action fraud, we'll get that methodology I just spoke to about or policing will get that methodology. But I do think we just need to be cautious and there will be people who are perhaps more savvy and will recognise it more. And the problem with that is, of course, someone says that this is where this perception of, well, I better not mention I've been a victim because they're going to think I'm, no, we've got to get over that.

1:21:49This is no shame in it. I think we've all got to be a little bit more cautious I got home once and got a one of those package things and the company that said was actually was expecting a parcel yeah so it's very easy to get caught out I stopped myself the other day there was a I got a message from a bank that I have an account with all looked perfect and then I suddenly thought hold on hold on there's no reason for them to have contacted me this transaction doesn't make any sense but I was working at the time the text came in and it just said click this and then I looked and realized and thought, OK, that link isn't real and this is a scam.

1:22:22And I stopped myself. It's very, in our busy modern world, where we are being thrown by so many different communications, it is very easy. And unfortunately, once I've got your data, we've already talked in the programme about the social engineering that goes on in that. It's a momentary lapse of concentration, isn't it? Let me return to the beginning here. My view is we are critically under-resourced in the fight against fraud and scams, especially the more you talk about the international link and the millions of cases that we're seeing, and the complete prevalence to scams on social media. Do you and your colleagues around the country have enough resources to deal with this plague of scams that we have in the country?

1:23:00You probably can't answer me politically, but I'm going to ask you anyway. Well, actually, I don't think this is about armies of investigators necessarily. It's about being more precise in what we do to tackle it. Because we need to fight back with the technology we have. There's three layers to this. How we take the fight to those that are operating these scams. criminals yeah the criminals themselves through the technology i almost wonder i always worry that calling them scams they're criminals let's you know absolutely they're criminals unequivocally the second bit is how industry works where the lines of defense so banking industry do a lot of work there's a voluntary charter with tech companies to have a responsibility to also intercede and take these things down before they reach us but they're crap well does it need more work yeah of course it does i mean i'm i'm gonna say i probably shouldn't say that word on the podcast but i'm going to stick with anyway they are crap they are the oxygen of scammers out there they allow them in they give them publicity they take money they're paid to promote these scammers and we need these tech firms to deny scammers the oxygen of publicity and the ability to interact and contact with individuals and it is a disgrace how long it's taking to get any form of regulation in place and i'm still scared the online safety bill won't be Anyway, I shouldn't interrupt you.

1:24:14Carry on. But also the banking industry has got much more sophisticated... Banking industry is doing... I mean, banking industry, I don't see as the culprits here. Funnily enough, they're the ones who have to pay out. The tech companies who advertise these scams don't have to pay out, which seems there's a level of lack of justice in that for me. But you don't make those rules. No, but banking certainly, we work really closely, and the City, again, of London do a lot of work with UK Finance, and they're actually a lot more sophisticated. the third layer yes are us individuals not falling foul of these criminals when we receive something we need to be more cautious don't accept it on face value does it mean it might take a little bit longer to deal with whatever's in front of you yes but actually for the sake of a let's click directly to the website rather than clicking the link don't click the link if it's an unselessed phone call you know what send me something in the post i'm not taking the phone call now there are ways that we can do now it doesn't interfere a little bit with our daily lives i suppose it does in all honesty but actually interestingly the figures around fraud up until march this year there has been a 10 reduction in fraud that's got to be a combination of those three things listen i very much appreciate your time coming in i wish the police more strength in order to be able to crack down on the epidemic that we have in this country i think you're being political by saying that you have enough resources to do it because you have to do that in your job.

1:25:35It doesn't look to me, if we've only got conviction rates of less than 10%, substantially less than 10%, that we have enough resources being focused on how we crack down on this in the country. I wish you had a few more arms under your helmet. I think we've got to get the way we do our job much more effective with the resources that we've got. And then we'll have some dent into this. Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you. In this podcast, we talked about a number of different companies. We asked them for their statements and here are their responses to what has been said.

1:26:37We urge our customers to avoid so-called investment opportunities on social media platforms and ensure they undertake extensive due diligence to establish the legitimacy of any opportunities prior to making investment decisions. A Virgin Media spokesperson said, We take fraud incredibly seriously, blocking known scam numbers and investigating suspected scam calls whenever they're reported to us. We offer a wide range of features including caller display and anonymous caller rejection, which help reduce incoming calls from withheld numbers. Customers may wish to register with the Telephone Preference Service to opt out of unsolicited sales and marketing calls, and can find more advice on how to stay safe from fraud on our website.

1:27:18We also approached the government and a Department for Culture, Media and Sports spokesperson said, the government is continuing the work of the Online Advertising Task Force, an industry-led forum bringing together leaders from across the advertising sector to tackle illegal advertising and increase protections for consumers. We will continue to monitor the current frameworks in place to determine if further legislation is needed. And a Home Office spokesperson said, fraud is a pernicious crime which devastates lives. That's why our national fraud squad of 400 specialists is targeting the most harmful fraudsters by taking a proactive intelligence-led approach.

1:27:56Last week, the Home Secretary announced an increase in over half a billion pounds in funding for policing, which will go in part towards further specialist fraud investigators who continue to protect people and businesses from scams. And that's it for this special edition of the Martin Lewis podcast. I do hope you found it interesting. And I hope that if we do one again in a few years' time, We finally got rid of at least 90 % of the current scams that are invading our country. We need it to stop. Please do recommend to your friends that they listen to this podcast. And if you've enjoyed this, why not subscribe to the regular weekly Martin Lewis podcast?

1:28:31We put out a new podcast every Thursday and you never know, your pockets might just be pleased with you.