Unhappily Ever After: MAFS Axed

0:01Hello, welcome to the Media Club. I'm Matt Deegan. In the club today, Channel 4 calls time on Married at First Sight. Despite an external review, finding the show could continue. Broadcast consultant Paul Robinson on what it means for reality TV. Also on the show, the famous man loses his High Court bid to stop allegations being aired, but he still can't be named just yet. Former Guardian head of media and now Scott Trust board member Professor Jane Martinson on a landmark ruling for press freedom. All that's plus, do broadcasters now need creators more than creators need them? The BBC goes looking for another£300 million.

0:36And in the Audio Network Media Quiz, we get misty-eyed about Christmas adverts. That's all happening on this edition of the Media Club. Come on in. Joining me are two club members to discuss the week's biggest media stories. First, welcome back to broadcast consultant Paul Robinson. Radio One, talk radio and Disney, all on the CV. Hello. Hello, nice to be here. Nice to have you back. Who are you bringing as your plus one this week? Okay, so quite hard, I think. Everything was dominated by what was happening over in America. And I had several lunches cancelled because people had to go back and write stories about the impact.

1:13Michael Karg, who is the CEO of WPP, who was speaking at a media conference this week at King's Place about the future of media. And interestingly, given it was about the future of media, he focused not on AI, not on automation, but he focused on really creative skills. You know, if you're writing a campaign, think about what the customer wants. Use your brain and don't rely on tools too much. Get back to basics. And he said sometimes these automated campaigns can look really efficient on paper, but actually they won't deliver. So, you know, use them as tools, but don't be dominated by them and don't be lazy with his message.

1:51I think it's quite a good view on sort of AI. Generally, whatever you do, I mean, I think we all probably use it and sometimes think, am I using this a bit too much? Yeah. Trying to have that break and go, you know, what's my domain experience? What's my knowledge? Yeah, because otherwise, AI does tend to produce a very homogenized product, doesn't it? It's, you know, it's quite good and better than you could do years ago, but all a bit samey. Yes, that's true. Also returning is Jane Martinson, a Marjorie Dean Professor of Financial Journalism at City St. George's and a trustee at the Scott Trust.

2:23Jane, who would you like to honour with your Plus One membership this week? Hi, Matt. I actually had to choose something from the American midterm election coverage because I found myself sort of waking up on the morning really early and spending hours just going down all sorts of, you know, there was no video clip reel that I did not watch. And the bit I really enjoyed of someone I didn't know very well, someone who, the president, who weirdly, you know, all these detail, like he spent a lot of election night texting and calling reporters. And he did this on the Fox show in which there's a woman, Jessica Tarlov, who he hates and he's been really abusive to her in the past.

3:08and he was calling her like dumb as a rock to her co-host, tell her she's the worst. And this co-host was sort of relaying this. And Jessica Tarlow just said, just press stop. And so it just really made me laugh the way she responded by basically, you know, like all of those really annoying nuisance calls you get from insurance companies or whatever. Just capital letters stop. And hopefully that will just, you know, stop Trump's abusive behavior. We can only hope anyway. Yeah, she's a good addition to the club. She's sort of Fox News' sort of token Democrat, isn't she? Token liberal. Yeah, definitely.

3:50So she's obviously, you know, she's used to taking some flack. I was kind of flicking around the American news coverage. I always like watching it on election night between MSNBC and a bit of Fox News and CNN as well. Everyone was very giddy, even the Fox News people were very sad, but there is much more giddiness compared to our elections. Some of the more right-wing media have called it the woke election. You've got the first Muslim, you know, so many black women appointed to positions, you know, elected officials. The first openly gay. I mean that the other thing that was quite surprising is how undiverse American politics is compared to the UK which is not any more diverse in terms of population really anyway so I think giddiness but I think it was a pretty sort of unexpected momentous election and look it's going to be a momentous two years isn't it to see what happens next whether they can live up to that giddiness yeah Paul I mean without getting too much into American politics there's a lot of opportunities for the Democrats here they could go down a few different roads um they could go very attacking Trump they could try and and uh find that find their own way through and their own policies do you think it's going to affect media policy it's going to affect any of the the TV networks I mean Fox News ratings weren't great probably because people a lot of their audience knew what was coming and chose to watch something else well I think it's going to be interesting to see whether they disrupt the process of government or allow it to happen because it was interesting seeing what happened to stocks you know you see the big players like google netflix amazon all their stock went up very nicely anybody's in a data center or anything doing to do with ai their stock went down fearing the democrats would actually um start working much harder to increase regulation so i think that's the immediate impact i don't know i think um i think people are generally quite happy You know, there was one terrible thing I saw in the BBC and they didn't take it down for hours.

5:59That was on the website in the early hours of the morning. There was a picture saying, oh, look, look at these Democrats celebrating and they're all wearing red shirts. Right. Yes. So they clearly got that slightly wrong. And it was up for hours. OK. In a moment, a review says married at first sight could carry on. So why is Channel 4 calling off the wedding? I'll see you in a sec. Shipping, billing, admin, payroll, marketing. You're managing all the things. So why waste time sending important documents the old-fashioned way? Mail and ship when you want, how you want with Stamps.com. Print postage on demand 24-7 and schedule pickups from your office or home.

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7:49welcome back to media club channel 4 confirmed yesterday that married at first sight uk is not going to return that includes the series that started filming this year that's not going to be on air either paul this all started after panorama aired some allegations back in may there is a review that's just finished saying the show could carry on with some changes but channel 4's taken quite a hard pass hasn't it they have i mean fairly new chief executive if you decided maybe you know cut and run's the best option i can see that lorraine hegersey did obviously a good job um and and praised some of the processes in place and they clearly weren't those were two reviews weren't there there's a more formal one and then a kind of more mediary one yeah i i read hers and i thought that she made some very good points and well argued but there clearly were problems um i must admit i've never watched it not something i particularly care about but i think do you know what rather than dragging out the agony cancelling it moving on i think that's very smart yeah essentially in the hegacy review she she sort of said some of the some of the the care that they put into was kind of market leading uh as well and other people kind of followed followed their lead uh i mean it's a tough for the production company to hear that but still it wasn't quite enough no but i mean it sounds as though there was some uh pressure or coercion to be more intimate maybe than might be necessary for the editorial process and it seems as though that led to some of the issues um and maybe that's you know what led to ultimately the the offenses that were taking that took place so i gosh it's hard to know isn't it um yeah i i think we probably can live without it yeah jane um because paul kind of talks about there the recommendations included separate bedrooms on the wedding night apartments monitored 24 7 by welfare team safe words and panic buttons no more intimacy week or partner swap week As you sort of, as I read those things out, you sort of think this is a hard show to sort of make safer.

9:49Yeah. And I think a hard show to justify. I mean, the whole premise, if you think about it, is sort of it's abuse happening in plain sight, which I mean, given the court case we've heard of today, you know, that's not unusual on British television over the decades, is it really? it just seems astonishing to me you know the two rape allegations one of which the woman actually talked to the team and said that she had bruises and that she'd been threatened with an acid attack it just sort of seems I think it's absolutely the right thing for Channel 4 to do I just thought it's so sad that these things take such a long time to become so obvious.

10:37You know, that is a show set up. I know it's been going, you know, started in Denmark in 2013. It's been going for a long time. But the whole premise, as you say, you read sort of the details of exactly what it's meant to do and you think, of course there's going to be abuses. Of course there's going to be, you know, non-consensual acts. It just feels like a no-brainer. um so yeah i think it does sound like she you know just trying to do it i think the probably magic's a bit over anyway isn't it so it's a relatively easy decision to make uh obviously it is an international format as jane says in australia i mean hugely popular in australia does it if you're a broadcaster overseas uh can you ignore what happened in the uk or does it start to put your own show on the rocks a little bit well regulations are obviously local to territory and australia is a different country and different standards and different expectations but no you can't ignore it i mean any responsible broadcaster would have to take note uh i think if i was running another broadcaster overseas with that show i'd be now asking some questions uh and being very careful because um the damage to reputation that can be done particularly ignore uh a major finding like this and then you have a problem yourself of, you know, gosh, that could be your neck on the block.

11:56So I suspect there'll be probably further cancellations are inevitable. I was going to say, I agree with Paul over Lorraine Heggersy's review. I thought some of the recommendations are really sensible and practical. You know, having a panic button, having safe words, all the things that, you know, women's charities, who, by the way, have all welcomed this decision by Channel 4, but they have made sure that sort of, you know, society at large has an awareness of those things. and just before we hit record uh on thursday uh news uh that russell brand has been convicted on one count of rape and three counts of sexual assault uh jane the succession of celebrity predators is something that just seems to be getting longer um have there been enough changes in the media industry is this a result of the past or uh do you think there's still some some issues to solve i've written quite a lot about this in the past not russell brand specifically but the sort of succession of um and actually i think the point of that question i would slightly take issue with i don't think this is just a media issue this is a society issue i think it's men and they're nearly all men who are in positions of all power abusing the trust and the desire of typically younger far less powerful people um and it there's so many instances we would probably struggle to mention them all you know whether it's Harvey Weinstein I mean so many um Jeffrey Epstein obviously I mean we could go on and on it's not just the media obviously the media because of it being glamorous and you know people like Russell Brand they build their reputation on their appearances on TV and you know he was he worked for many shows and did a lot of work on British TV.

13:49I mean, we'll all remember, you know, on the early warning signs, which was that Andrew Sacks phone call on the radio, those sorts of signs about his behaviour with the doors, you know, the things that happened. Do you think, well, an awareness, even though people is a bit, again, it's a bit like married to plain sight, they become money spinners. They become people or shows that make money for organisations. and then blind eyes are turned and i think that has to change because i think we're going to talk about other reasons you know the point is that we try to raise awareness and say actually we might be enjoying this but there's got to be safeguards to make sure that everybody's enjoying it yeah well speaking of that um obviously this week we also heard about a high court judge that ruled that The Guardian and ITN can publish allegations against a famous man known only as PPT, but not yet.

14:50ITN started this investigation in 2022. Jane, what does it take for a kind of a newsroom to keep a story kind of alive like this for sort of four years, you know, when you can't cover it properly um and then still not be able to to publish it well i mean yeah of course it's really hard i think you know they've got all credit i mean obviously i'm biased when it comes to the guardian but all credit to the guardian and itn for taking a really they have this is responsible journalism in the public interest you know they asked for a right reply um they they gave time And they talked to over 100 alleged victims, 30 in great detail.

15:36This has gone on and on. And thank goodness that Judge Nicklin made that, gave the verdict that he did last week. The celebrity has until Monday, I think, to lodge the appeal. But the consequences of if he were to win that appeal, I think it's really important that we say, you know, the impact on public service journalism would be huge. And what the judge said is, you know, obviously he has said and his lawyers have argued that he's a big suicide risk if these allegations are to come out. But as the judge said, that is the role of psychiatric services, of the health service. That cannot be the role of either the court or by extension journalists who must be there to give a voice to the alleged victims and to sort of make sure that the story they're telling has enough evidence that they're comfortable to run it.

16:40Because, again, you know, this is a bit of a theme of the today's show, isn't it? But abuse in plain sight, you know, really powerful people, whether through celebrity or some other way, money, money, celebrity, power. They should not be allowed to act with impunity. And I think journalism, if there's one really important role of journalism, it's to make sure that they don't. well paul reminded that we can't say their name because we're in england uh if we're in scotland we probably could and some people on social media from scotland have the news is definitely out there bit of a strange situation to be in is it is it ridiculous and a lot of people know who we're talking about anyway um i mean i thought that um trying to invoke convention of human european rights you know two and three was uh smacked of desperation in itself and i do agree with what jane said i mean the whole point is that a journalist writing a story which is deeds in the public interest cannot be deemed to be the only factor that impacts that person's mental health that was the key point and i do agree with that so i think hurrah is very important a very important win uh i mean this is one of these things which jane is is obviously well covered by social media and it's salacious but that all comes from the journalism that goes into it and the deep reporting.

18:08There's often, I think, in the media, a lot of discussions post these announcements like, oh, everybody knew, you know, this was all kind of kept secret by a sort of shadowy cabal. And it's tough because there's an element of truth in there. But part of the reason these things don't come out is there's no proof. You are worried about what the responses will be. It's quite a hard thing to communicate to the public who can tweet it out themselves not thinking there'll be any response yeah yeah and i i think that sense of sort of oh everybody must have known i mean there's some circumstances and brand is actually a really good um and very timely um example i mean i remember years ago i'm sure most of us you know at the edinburgh tv festival that sort of after show parties where there was obviously sleazy behaviour but you know it's not as if he was in his own time who knew what was going on you know those kind of things I think then it becomes an issue that's why the sort of value of investigative journalism and of course you know these victims are brave enough to come forward because it's never easy taking on men like this to sort of talk about their experience and what happened so yeah you know it is it is difficult but I think I think we have to be really careful not to let the sort of social media madness um change what journalism is or does so the sort of quick opinions and um you know talking about the person when it's not legally possible I mean it is difficult and it does make given the fact that this case has taken so long and now is still not able to name the person until the appeal is heard is sort of a bit crazy.

20:03But, you know, that's what sort of trying to uphold the values of public service journalism have to be, I suppose. Paul, Jane sort of talked about this imbalance, this sort of talent imbalance, and it tends to be driven by men, not exclusively, but it tends to be driven by men. I think we both worked in environments where we were, you could see that, you could see that happening. Do you think that has changed? Do you think talent are more aware of it? Or is there a bit of an alignment with the kinds of people that become front of camera performers are more likely to be slightly dominant in their views?

20:46Well, I'd like to say they were more aware and things have improved, but I'm not sure that's the case. You know, if I think back to Jimmy Savile now, Jimmy Savile fortunately predates me at Radio 1. I didn't meet Jimmy Savile. But, you know, without naming any names, we all saw behaviour that was basically inappropriate, maybe not illegal, but, you know, lacking taste, maybe not being dignifying for women, you know, bad behaviour. And there was definitely a sense that if you were a junior and you called out maybe a big talent, your job could be on the line. Who'd be believed? Probably the talent, because the talent was big name, had big ratings, was valued, and you're a producer or a researcher or someone, and you'd fear for your job, so you'd just stay quiet.

21:35And I'm not sure that's changed. I think the fact it takes so long is a real problem. Now, I mean, obviously in the case of Savile, he died really before anything could be done. Now, in this particular case, you know many many many years you can do a lot of damage in those years so i think how do we find a way to call this out quicker and how do we make it safe for people who are actually going to um you know whistleblow effectively yeah jane i mean you're at cityst george's you work with lots of students uh gen z uh are they more likely to call it out yeah i i think paul's right in terms of the power imbalance in a workplace but I think they are very aware of it I mean I've talked to a lot of students over the years you know and I've I have actually had a student who um went to work I did some work experience I won't name the organization or of course um anyone involved but uh where there was some sort of inappropriate behavior that I think was from someone um you know an older generation who sort of felt well I I'm just trying to be helpful and a bit flirty but actually this particular student felt it wasn't i do think they are um much more aware of a consent that is a really big sort of word and idea and they really try to put it into into practice and i think you know i've got a son two daughters and i i think all three of them feel the same way it's not just women thank god uh okay just before the break uh do broadcasters need creators more than creators need them that's what an indie head told the guardian this week Paul this is Josh Barnett CEO of Afterplay Studios kind of creator-led indie so it's their world do you think it rings true from the broadcasters side of the table well there's no doubt now that the gatekeepers have changed and reduced you know that's true in tv that's true in music and that's a good thing so people can now get access to the market in a way they couldn't before and that particularly gives talent a chance to shine now whether a creator would deny the opportunity to be on bbc one or channel four and rather go on youtube i'm not sure that's entirely true you know maybe talent you know can progress from you know tiktok and youtube onto broadcast media i mean what's interesting is that i think this article is slightly self-serving you know but um you know if you look at the numbers i mean if you look at the latest ofcom media nations report um bbc still has the highest share of all viewing 21.1 there was a moment in the summer where youtube overtook but youtube's at 18 netflix 11.5 tiktok's at 5.8 um facebook at 1.5 and insta video 1.2 so you know if you want to get big numbers actually bbc itv channel 4 still a great place to go so i think um they those traditional broadcasters should have continued need to be open to new talent all the time but creators have now got somewhere else to go as well i'm not sure that some uh digital media's replaced some of the big networks when i sort of saw this um creators are really savvy with audience reach yes um and they're not locked into anything particular i mean they might have a lot of uh respect for youtube they might earn quite a lot of money from youtube um but if there's some opportunities coming along they're they'll take them yeah i think the other thing that maybe is more of a challenge for for broadcasters is the deal creators want is different yes um it's not just hey you pay 10 grand to do an episode or do an appearance or or whatever um they want to share the ip that that's the world they've grown up with yeah i mean in the way the hollywood studios now are being forced to radically reinvent themselves and look what's happening in los angeles it's sort of chaos the broadcasters too have got legacy practices people are used to doing it certain ways and they've got to adapt and i think the trouble with being a large organization particularly bbc is how do you adapt to that and they're probably not as fully adapted as they should be and not as open as they should be you know it's quite hard to contact the bbc sometimes i've tried and you can't get anybody you know you you have an email that's not a person you ring up and you get some you know automated numbers so i think being open to creators is really important for those broadcasters because ultimately, you know, what the business we're in is bad ideas.

25:59It's about ideas which come from human beings. And human beings always kind of have the best ideas. Jane, also in the article, it points to kind of other creators. You know, we've talked about it before. Amal Rajan left us today programmed for his own channel. I mean, if you are, and we've seen it with lots of journalists, particularly started in the States, you see it here now, who kind of go out on their own shingle. I mean, looking at what Amal's done, I think it's pretty good. It's probably a slower start than he'd hoped on the view side. I think the subscription side's going pretty well. Is there some ways you're gambling big reach for a smaller audience that pays you better?

26:40Do you think broader talent want to take that change? That's about control, isn't it, rather than sort of broader reach? Because I think having the position, we're just talking about Amol for a second, you know um who was sort of multi-talented did lots of different things and had a huge reach at the bbc and i i sort of think actually it it is really symbiotic i mean all the research suggests you know a third of under 30s get their news from influencers creators in the u.s now there's a sort of push to say you know an amol piers morgan marina hyde has now set up um her brilliant um um new site always on and so i think there is this move from but but typically there's sort of people that have created a brand if you like with a platform that is an established media um and then there's sort of creation of whether it's youtube or sub stack or you know platforms which are allowing them to have control over both the content but also obviously the money is really attractive.

27:48I, you know, it's good to see, I think it's good to see some sort of moves around rather than sort of saying, oh, broadcasters are failing because of this thing is happening. I think, and I hate the term legacy media, but, you know, the sort of broadcasters and the news organisations basically working out why is it that, you know, a lot of people under 30 like hearing a human being give that news on vertical videos? Why do they feel a greater sense of trust? And that's, I think, really interesting. And if those two things can come together, you know, it works for both. I mean, I, you know, I agree that I don't think it's sort of the broadcasters just failing.

28:36Obviously, there are a lot of struggles amongst the, you know, former print businesses, but a lot of are adapting. So I think they have to because of reaching a younger audience. But I think it's also quite exciting. Paul, some of this is old fashioned, understand your audience stuff. And of course, corporate structures, business deals, all of that can often get in the way of those things. And maybe creators have got a more direct relationship. But if you're any kind of content creator, that's what you'd be focused on. Yeah, of course. I mean, you know, if you're in the kids business, as you and I are to some extent, you know, you look for where kids are.

29:17And so if you're going to launch a kid show these days, you've got to be on YouTube. You know, YouTube and Roblox is where you start and you build the brand there. And then you gradually hopefully get onto Netflix or Disney Plus or somewhere else. So, you know, YouTube, you can't deny you can't deny TikTok. I think that I should also say there's a lot of people who actually aren't on any of those platforms either. I mean, you know, content creators who are on those platforms are a small number of those who are trying to get on. You know, it really is a Pareto. And when you've got Amol's going on there, of course, he's got that big head start, as Jane said, having had that massive reach.

29:51So, of course, he's got a brand already. If you're building a brand, it's quite a different thing. OK, when we return, the BBC has found 200 million pounds of savings. Where on earth do they find the next 300 million? See you in a sec.

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34:45Welcome back. Here's a few things we've been talking about in the club this week. Culture Secretary Lisa Nandy has formally intervened in Sky's deal for ITV's channels and ITVX. Ofcom and the Competitions and Markets Authority now have until the 27th of January to report back on plurality and free speech. She's also promising new streaming legislation. and the TV festival may have left Edinburgh but there will be a TV event in Scotland next year definitely the Creative Cities Convention is heading to Glasgow in May seven years after the pandemic cancelled its planned 2020 visit and Press Gazette has received more than 500 complaints after Times Higher Education's Jack Grove was shortlisted at the British Journalism Awards the honour is for Grove's reporting on the late Professor Jason Arday Press Gazette says the nomination still stands links to all of our stories are available on our sub stack just sign up it's free the media club.com that's the media club.com paul and jane are still with me paul the bbc's direct deputy director general rodriguez talfan davies was at the broadcasting press guild lunch this week i know because i had to interview him for half of it before our great members started quizzing him we talked a lot about uh the bbc's charter and the cuts that they faced um they've got a five 500 million pounds of cuts uh obviously 200 million pounds of that has been announced but 300 million still to go i mean that's it's a lot of money and i asked him uh when have you got to do that buy or identify that or announce that buy and it's pretty much the end of next year so they haven't got long to to find this and announce it i mean bbc3's gone bbc scotland channel is going to go as well as radio 4 extra they're they're they are they're not sizable changes but they're significant changes but they've got to go bigger well i think thus far what have they done they've basically cut off limbs haven't they and they're easy they're and they're easy cuts to make and you could argue that the cuts could have been far worse than that i mean they they weren't crazy cuts i think anyone could say well yeah okay a shame but not disastrous doesn't fundamentally undermine the bbc to my mind now to get the next 300 million they've got a bit harder which is really work out how stuff is done i think i've got to go and look at process how you do things how you make things modernize reinvent use technology particularly to find ways to be more efficient the bbc has always been terrible at this when i was at the bbc you know trying to do things the same but for fewer resources was not something they're very good at and commercial broadcasting is generally better at it but is there 300 million in that and i think There is.

37:29Yeah, I do. I mean, look, it's less than 10 % of the total budget. You know, I mean, Disney's talking about 20 % savings in Los Angeles. Now, we had 20 % cuts when I was at Disney, in fact, and that was tough. But you can find it if you really dig deep. And if you're forced to do a big number, it does make you to really re-evaluate things you otherwise take for granted. The trouble is that there's people in the BBC who have been there a long time, and they're a bit institutionalized, and they accept that certain things are done certain ways. and what you've got to do now is really root and branch think about how you're going to do things differently.

38:03I do think that people say, oh, BBC Sounds may go or the iPlayer. I mean, for me, there are three things the BBC's got to continue. One is invest in content because it's all about content. It's got to focus on content. It's got to keep BBC Sounds and it's got to keep BBC iPlayer because that gives it the reach. Whatever the funding mechanic is, you know whether it's a tax on your streaming subscription or it's direct government funding or it's license fee the bbc has got to have universality it's got to have you know broad reach so those are absolutely critical and i would be bearing down on all the non-value adding all the people who are not really contributing to those i thought it was interesting talking to him and he was he's a very good bbc executive and he answered all the questions well i don't think uh Did he tell you anything?

38:51Anything super new to tell us. Kind of reading between the lines, the one thing that he was asked a good question about, what would you see would be different about the BBC in five years' time? And he went straight to transformation of iPlayer. Right. It's very much driven by the new boss, Matt Britton. And just that kind of instant response was, already we've put a lot into iPlayer, but that's essential for the future of the organisation. I mean, that's a great answer. It's not an unobvious answer, because obviously, you know, having content on demand non-linear is absolutely the way to go. One of the problems that BBC's got is that there's all these TVs with iPlayer embedded, but no one's using them.

39:32So the distribution of the iPlayer is far greater than the actual usage of the iPlayer. You know, and the iPlayer's still only got something like 60 % penetration of the UK, which is pitifully small. I'd be really working hard to drive that to 90%, because then the BBC is really in a much stronger position politically. Lisa Nandy doing an investigation, you want to be able to say to Lisa, we've got distribution, we've already got that. So I'd be really pushing iPlayer very hard. The functionality is not as good as I think some of the competitors. If you benchmark against Netflix, for example, I know Netflix has got a massive, massive engineering resource.

40:08But the UI, the functionality, not yet, I think, at the level it should be. Also, Jane, we talked a bit about the Trump lawsuit for the BBC. and I think they feel like they're in a solid position. They want to second guess what an American judge would do. But obviously we saw Wall Street Journal this week that that case with Trump was thrown out. I mean, it's sort of the Brits that are holding Trump's feet to the fire, isn't it? Yes, long may remain so. And of course all the amazing journalists and people out in America. Yeah, I think it's really good news that, I mean, there's, you know, the Wall Street Journal, one brilliant that their judge cited in their favour because the reporting they did was really good.

40:57also really interesting this uh week just sort of take it away from the court case which is that the Murdoch papers um like the New York Post has also really gone quite hard on the tsunami you know blue tsunami against Trump which is a sign that they're sort of you know he is backing his editors or at least that organization is um to do that work and I think I mean that the case against to the BBC was always incredibly vexatious. You know, it was a stupid error. They should never have done it. They should have apologised much faster and recognised what they've done instead of possibly making it worse.

41:34But, I mean, a US president taking time out to do a, you know, Dr. Evil-sized attack on another, you know, a friendly state's broadcaster is just insane. So the quicker it can be. he's got enough money from crypto doesn't need the bbc's billions 10 billion dollars jane uh what's about money uh last week uh was the budget uh john healy's first as chancellor uh and i was thinking about your ma students they were running live coverage uh for their own city financial news channel uh what does the budget look like uh from a bunch of uh financial would-be financial journalists well i i think um as all um reporters know you don't ever think what does it mean for me you think how can i do this job and it's so great i mean it's really early this year they only start you know the first week of term is the beginning of october and you know within a couple of weeks they're doing this live news um site and typically in the first term we'd only do the one day with the budget but there's actually going to be um uh not not actually just my idea but there's going to be three days of this live news and it's just a great experience I mean the budget is such a good you know the timing is so tight because he doesn't stand up till 12 you know it depends when he sits down when you get the actual information and there's just a lot going on and I think it's just such a brilliant way as a journalist to learn what you need to do and how quickly you need to work you know it you have all that adrenaline and everything that's happening.

43:14I mean, I, you know, in terms of future proofing this career, like so many people have said to me, you know, having covered the media for so long, I've written quite a lot of, you know, print is dying, what we're going to do about all these journalists. You know, there's still lots of people that want to be journalists, and they come to City. And the skills that I think we can really work on are the ones that are going to future proof their careers. And that to me, you know, still we need fast thinking and that kind of ability to adapt all the data and all the information, as well as shoe lever reporting.

43:50I think that will never go out of fashion and never should it because, you know, what are the things that AI bots can't do? They can't go out and find people to talk to and really dig into something by looking someone in the eye and finding out exactly what they're saying. So, you know, we really, really put an emphasis on those things, as well as all the other things you need to do now as a journalist. Well, to touch you on that, I mean, past grads have gone on to FT, Bloomberg, Reuters. What are their destinations that they're looking at? Are they looking at traditional media? Do they want to set up their own things?

44:26Do they want to do PR or other types of? that funnily enough we've just done I've been doing a sort of um report that we do every um every three years and we go and contact all the alumni so my my course which was set up in 2010 in the wake of 2008 um and it was um just to see where everyone was and so we have this brilliant family of alumni actually which is sort of one of the things that I love most about the job and the sort of you know the students and then they go on to work in the industry and often come back and talk to um you know the new cohort um and more than half are still working uh in big news organizations around the world it's a global financial course um mostly london more than half are in london or the uk but mainly london and um yeah i mean so and then there's about 10 percent are pr and some have gone into business like we've had someone go into the foreign office and other jobs it's sort of job and particularly if you come from countries where being a journalist is really hard whether that's China or Turkey or some parts of South America um you know they tend to struggle to find jobs in news organizations as journalists but it was a really encouraging set of statistics actually um I mean you know some we struggled more to find but it was there are jobs in journalism i mean you've named bloomberg uh the ft dow jones uh reuters i mean financial journalism i think partly because 2008 made everyone realize the need for it and the greater training for it there is a there is a sort of demand for the graduates of that course into actual paid jobs i think there are more other courses where um you know students or graduates are more likely to be interested in the sort of creator economy um you know doing sort of vertical videos but then there have been some really great successes doing that you know there's a Mimi Yates is on the Daily Mail not not one of my students but she's doing a great sort of video newsreels for the Daily Mail there's loads of others that you know it's brilliant so it is interesting like from a fact like looking at that the financial part of it I mean that some of those businesses that FT, WSJ, Bloomberg, they've got interesting subscription businesses, you know, they're not necessarily as buffeted by the ad market.

46:55Is that, if you are a journalist, are you better picking a lane earlier on if you want to get a job and make some dosh? You know what, yeah, I think so. I really do. Because I think you learn all the skills about, you know, we all know, if you've been a journalist, you become a journalist or remain a journalist because you really want to it's just the job you actually need to be resilient enough and want to do it enough that all the knockbacks that you will get won't matter but I really believe you know financial journalism one there is a need that is not always filled because people typically and I'm an English graduate I would never have thought I'd have become a financial journalists in any way um but there are great stories there you know we talked about money and power and people involved i mean that that's a lot of that is in financial journalism so yes i do think it's a brilliant way to become a journalist okay just enough time for the audio network media quiz

48:02three media stories connected by one theme and then shoehorned into the format of an existing media property this week it's called all i want for christmas because as soon as halloween's over the nation's retailers whip out their sleigh bells and offer us a slowed down cover of a song we used to like so i'm going to read you three heartwarming festive voiceovers for made up christmas ads you just tell me the story that is hiding inside and once again alex audio network has taken that sentimental brief from producer matt and found a playlist of soft uplifting indie tracks to score today's game have your tissues ready okay best of three uh buzzing with your names if you know the story so paul you will say paul and jane you will say jane let's play the christmas ad i'm gonna be bad at this i can already tell Okay, question number one.

48:57She was only ever meant to be a cheap plaything, but 17 million views later, her soul came alive one Saturday night. Oh. Yes? What's it, name, name? Jane. Jane, yes. This isn't about Saturday Night Live and Cynthia Erivo. No. you're right this about Saturday Night Live. It's not about Cynthia. Paul, do you know what it might be? Paul, I think this is about the Smile Clinic. Yes. So this is basically, it's driven from Saturday Night Live. And this is a Korean reality show about a dermatology skin clinic. And it's going to be a comedy, apparently. And yeah, they've commissioned a whole season of it to broadcasting career.

49:52Yes, I didn't know that Saturday Night Live Korea is a thing. So just like Saturday Night Live UK, there's the Korean operation. Well, the thing is, Korea is very close to America, you know. I mean, they're the only other country in the world, I think, whose Olympic stadium is used for baseball. Oh, interesting. Good fact. Yeah, it is. I thought so. I'll throw that in. But yeah, so SNL Korea, it's a thing. And it's obviously such a thing that they've got a 10-part spin-off sitcom that's started on the 3rd of December, if that is your thing. Right, advert number two. It seems his trusting face is never off our screens.

50:26And now he's offering a million pounds gift wrapped. Paul. Yes, Paul. This is the Bradley Walsh million pound shot game show. This looked like it was a real game show until halfway through, Bradley said, no, no, it's actually not. And the idea was to expose unscrupulous gambling techniques. And it had a sort of a mixed reaction. Yeah, there's a lot of gambling money in television and radio and media generally, podcasts, everything. I mean, quite brave of Channel 4 to point their cameras at something that they are sometimes guilty of. Yeah, good numbers for them though. Yeah. Did you see it, Jane?

51:07Well, only clips of it, to be fair, not the whole thing. Great idea though. And it did very well for Channel 4. Yeah. drew 1.2 million viewers doubling the slot average uh and some some column inches as well it's nice to have some some brave programming done in a different way though channel force for that i think channel force should always be doing brave programming uh okay question number three a flashback to nine years ago a bedroom in manchester a cheap blue yeti microphone 40 people listened most of them yes jane is this it was the flashback to the bedroom in manchester is this the fact that diary of a ceo has become uh the number one podcast um and is also being viewed by a billion people around the world or something yeah so yeah so the most subscribed show in youtube's podcast charts uh diar of a ceo so steven steven bartlett's channel has 21.3 million subscribers just Just ahead of the Joe Rogan experience on 21.2 million.

52:12Paul, nearly a quarter of his YouTube views this year were in languages other than English. Thanks to AI dubbing. Do you think more people should be jumping on the AI dubbing train? I absolutely do. AI dubbing for a single voice is brilliant. For multiple characters on screen in animation, lip sync, not quite there yet, but it's on the way. It's mega, mega cheap. and you know if you dub into say neutral spanish you get the whole of latin america for example you know go for the key languages what i loved about this story was that he used we've got these beautiful pink sort of sponges he used a sock as his pop shield on his microphone what a great story uh it's good uh well i think that sort of makes it a draw one and a half uh points each if you can both work to come out one that way too no i i i think i think one and a half each is fine jane i'm happy to be equal with you i can promise you if you could if you can both work together to get our youtube subscriber numbers up uh to challenge to a billion yeah steven barlott will be very very happy uh my thanks to paul and jane also thanks to alex audio network for supplying today's music remember audio network can do that for you as well uh just head to audionetwork.com or click the link in our show notes uh so paul uh how can people keep up with you what's been keeping you busy recently so i'm doing a speech next week at the animation summit at the bfi in the south bank on ai and animation i've got a documentary about the moody blues the following thursday on boom radio linkedin uh they're two they're two good things um i mean we sort of touched on ai and animation there earlier it's got to be a super active topic for that for that community i've got some very interesting things to show okay all right forward looking good good good uh and jane how can people keep up uh with you what's keeping you mostly busy at the moment across all your things i'm just about to finish a report that i'm doing on uh for the ma program and i've also been writing a much sadder note the job cuts telegraph the telegraph's interesting i mean it it does show their future direction we talked about a bit on the show uh last week um uh it's a is it all about trying to make the telegraph something that appeals more in the us and trying to bank its uk audience and reduce those costs i think it's more about the money do you mean is it more about the politics or the money because the the ones that have sort of uh hit all the headlines are sort of you know nigel farage is going some of the more sort of out there voices in terms of you know anti-migrant voices but I think a lot of it is I mean it's more than a hundred jobs lots in editorial mainly sport you know which the Telegraph's always been so good at culture you know Lisa Markwell who's the former editor of the Independent announced yesterday that she was one of the people leaving Liam Halligan, you know, economics columnist.

55:11You know, this is not just about politics. It's about saving money and, you know, introducing AI to do some of the work. I think just like the BBC, you're probably going to see some more of those changes over the coming months. Thank you to Paul and to Jane. Also, thank you to you for listening and watching. My name's Matt Deegan. The producer is Matt Hill. It was a Rethink Audio production with video support from Podcast Discovery. I'll see you next week.

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