Has Audio Ever Had It So Good?

0:00Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like, and that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments.

0:37You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash ACAST. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. Still waiting in line?

1:20Again? That's time you'll never get back. Save time and money with Stamps.com. Over 4 million businesses have skipped the line with Stamps.com. Join them to save up to 90 % off carrier rates from your computer or phone right now. Print postage for certified mail, registered mail, and packages in seconds. Then schedule a pickup right from your home or office. For a limited time, go to Stamps.com and use code PODCAST for a free welcome gift. Taxes and fees apply.

1:51Hello, welcome to the Media Club backstage at the British Podcast Awards. And later on, you'll see us at the Audio Academies Festival. It's been quite the day for audio. I'm Matt Deegan. And in the club today, we are nowhere near peak podcasts. That's according to Podmasters co-founder Martin Boitosh. He explains why. And why is Gen Z tuning into the radio? Media research's Laura Fisher tells us more. Also on the show, Dave Masterman on building significant productions with Ellis James and John Robbins. and we'll be catching up on the key takeaways of the day with the Audio Academy's very own Aradna Tail Leach.

2:26All that plus various hot tapes from the RTS conference. We catch up with all the BPA winners and in the Audio Network Media Quiz, we hand out some awards of our own. That's all happening in this edition of the Media Club. Come on in.

2:45Now joining me for part one are two club members. first Martin Boitosh co-founder of Podmasters home of hit shows Oh God What Now, Origin Story, Talk 90s to Me and Finn vs History. You're a club member because you're here. You get to bring a plus one. So who would be your plus one this week? You asked me this yesterday and I fear my answer might be a bit boring but it's Andy Burnham. I think his speech this week really electrified a lot of people um it was just it was a defining moment and i think what he has been doing right which unfortunately starmer didn't get was that communications is 50 of the job and he's absolutely nailing the comms but also giving people a sense of hope a sense of direction so i think he very much comes into the media sphere if you've seen his tiktoks especially about the bar one that obviously is doing the round so i would i'm not sure he'd come with me he's probably busy but i'll invite him into the club he likes to drink likes the dj as well maybe he could be the in-house dj yeah he could be fun uh he's a great presenter um any any tips to improve his presenting skill if he was on one of your shows anything you'd you get him to do if i i don't think he needs tips from me i think he's doing okay but i would say my general experience of mps when they're on shows is they're very good at talking and not so great at listening so just try and listen more good Good advice, good advice.

4:11Next to Martin, Laura Fisher, audio and entertainment analyst at Media Research. Laura, who's had a good week in media or who would you like to add to your club membership? Yeah, I deliberated on this for a while, but considering it's this week and what awful, awful things have just happened in America at Cornell University, I specifically wanted to put on a guy called Wyatt Dixon who does content on both TikTok and social media, but also writes a really really great sub stack um and what Wyatt does is he speaks very profoundly um over TikTok and reaches young men where they are and I think in doing so and coming from a place of empathy he really offers a completely different perspective to what being a man can be and it doesn't mean not going to the gym or not being masculine it just means you can do those things and come from a place of empathy and caring about people so i think now more than ever uh it is a great thing to put him on i mean we often talk about you know great presenters or great hosts having sort of authenticity and authentic personalities as they are um there's also a danger for media companies that people can actually find their own find their own space find their own audiences directly is there things that media companies should look yes what those creators are doing totally i am i agree with that wholeheartedly and i think if you are going to as a media company try and represent a specific scene or culture and we talk about scenes a lot of media research then go to those scenes right and and find people from those scenes you don't have to come from a scene yourself but make sure there's someone in this process that can speak to the authenticity of it i think that's vital there's also about timing i think sometimes if you're in a broadcast organisation there's a lot of planning there's no we know what we're going to do whereas some of the creators they are responding quicker to things is speed part of this?

6:09There's also an argument to be made that content creators are responding at speed because they know the importance of doing so but then I think a balance needs to be struck between speed and credibility right so just because you're doing something quickly doesn't mean you don't need to be held by those same rules of traditional media which is fact-checking, right? And I think, yeah, the balance needs to be struck between both those things. Martin, do you think about kind of responding quickly to things? Do you think that's... The more production you add, the harder that becomes, right? Yes, absolutely.

6:46We were one of the early proponents of the emergency podcast, which now everyone does, so is it an emergency? But we did a quick, I think it was a 10-minute episode of Oh God What Now yesterday morning which we turned around over Zencastr edited within 20 minutes and was out basically half an hour after recording. There's some things you just have to be first to the punch on. I think what's amazing about creators and I think about social media is how incredibly quickly people react but as you said there's so much danger there especially around if there's a terrorism thing like happened this week, the RAF, people can go down the wrong road.

7:30So there's that responsibility for creators. So speed is great, but there has to be a certain amount of responsibility and there's not really any... People don't get penalised if anything goes wrong. That's something that will be, I think, looked at in the next few years. I agree completely. If you have an emergency podcast, is that because your audience expects it? Is that you competing with LBC and thinking that we want to own this story, it's going to be gone within 24 hours. It's purely for the audience. We think, what do they want to hear? They want to hear our take on what's just happened.

8:02I agree. They're not learning about it from us. They're understanding what our opinion is and perhaps using that opinion as their own. They're looking to be informed. But we're not news, we're very much comment. Yeah, I agree with that wholeheartedly. And when I look at podcasting genres in our quantitative data at Media, I made a very specific point to separate news from political commentary and analysis because I think you know when you look at something like The Rest is History from Goldhanger it's a fantastic show in that it gives commentary on the news or the newscast whatever it might be but it should not be your place to get your news you know the news should be the place to get your news and I think you know creating that boundary as you have done is so important because I don't think we need we should have as a society a generation of people that are kind of getting their news from as you say someone's take on the news rather than the reporting of it we talked there about kind of changing behavior you've got a new report out from reach to resonance yeah and some good news for for radio folk in the audience uh almost half of live radio listeners age 20 to 34 uh still tune in to discover music i mean the still word is interesting there's obviously a lot of perception about how consumers consume their media.

9:15I think sometimes radio gets maybe a hard time and is doing better than people think. Yeah, I think the press release is probably doing a lot of work for the Stillward. But I think, you know, it's more a case that these younger listeners, especially, I mean, we framed the report very much in terms of, you know, this is radio for avid music fans. But what we saw in the data, because the report had quantitative data, it had consumer qualitative data, and also expert interviews, But what we saw in the quant data, which is what that stat refers to, is that amongst radio listeners who are of that age group, discovering music is a reason for doing so.

9:53And that was really interesting. So it's like a key driver for why they listen was the music discovery. Absolutely. And where that came from was looking at the role of online and community stations. So I think the reasoning why there are so many disparate points around what's going on in radio is because radio is so vast and it's never been more vast. There's terrestrial, there's online, you know, there's community, there's niche, there's mainstream. And there aren't a lot of spaces where these radio stations are getting together. But when we're talking specifically about younger listeners, it is really the driving factor of these online stations.

10:31so like NTS, Ballymy, Rince FM. When younger listeners tune into those stations, those are the ones that are driving that music discovery need. If I may, I think you're actually responsible for a lot of young listeners with fun kids, which we have on in the car every morning. The robot riddle. If I talk over the robot riddle, that's it. I'm in trouble. So I think what radio does, because obviously when you are given, let's say Spotify, 16 million tracks, 25 million tracks, whatever it is, And they try and offer you curation, but it's a very flat level of it's just serving you music without any story.

11:07Absolutely. And the fact is that music is much more than just the song. Maybe we've been trained that way by the labels and marketing, but people fall in love with Taylor Swift because of the music, but because of everything else around it. So radio stations, are those curators, right? If you've ever tried to turn your own music on at work. Yeah, I mean, this is very much the point that we make. I mean, we look at radio as doing very well. And when I say radio, it's all touch points of radio, but the driver being those online stations, but also BBC Radio 6 having a really good year in terms of radio figures.

11:39And it are those points of human creation, context, and dynamism. And to your point, it's definitely the case that DSPs have homogenized music. So you don't really... So the Spotify and Apple music of the world. Yeah, yeah, have kind of homogenized that listening experience so it is just a track and you don't even really think about even who the artist is you or just especially not the label or anything you're just thinking about this is a song i listen to on spotify right but what kind of radio does is it recontextualizes music and it kind of talks to you about this came from this scene this community and this label and that's really important and i think avid music fans are really are really looking for that and as you say there are so many other touch points here it's it's that human curation it's the fact that there is a human tastemaker making these decisions i mean nts have just released um a radio player for the first time and when they did so they talk about this notion of omikaze listening and i think it's just omikaze curation i should say rather but i just think it's such a great phrase and it really sums up the whole thing because in the same way as when you'd go to an omikaze restaurant you're putting your entirety of your trust into the chef and then he is placing you with food but you know that you're going to like the food because you trust wholeheartedly what that chef is doing and a great curator or a great dj that's it so even if you don't like one specific song because you like the journey you lean in you don't lean back essentially you've got those those dsbs those spotify's apple musics they're trying to adopt quite a lot of radio functionality yes streaming side spotify aidj what an amazing function that's a joke it's the worst thing i've ever heard my entire life did you hear how my voice just went very different all the time yeah but um but no totally right i mean because i think a lot of the qualities of radio that that you and i have spoken about and we've all spoken about here are intangible and what some of the dsps are doing are trying to do it in a way that is more functional like oh if you do this and this this will be radio it's not necessarily the case i mean what radio has become we mentioned this in the report is uh what sorry what spotify and spotify has become and what dsp is more broadly is more like traditional radio in that it is just something you switch on and leave for the whole day and it's that lean back listening and because it hasn't picked up the nuances of those intangible qualities it's less space for um for radio stations to reclaim their role hence you know radio's new role in music discovery.

14:18But I should say not all DSPs are equal here because Apple Radio is really leading the charge. Curated, production-led operation. And it's an entirely different thing. It's Apple Music One, Apple Music Club, Apple Music Chill. And again, if these big players are thinking about radio and the role of radio, that's vital. Apple have always been at the forefront of technology, so them reclaiming the radio market is a big signal to watch out for. Martin, do you think this is something, should radio adjust what it's trying to achieve, lean into some more of these things and lean away from where Spotify can kind of do that background job perhaps?

14:58It's an interesting one. I think there's, I mean, for example, my favourite station is one called MySoul. That's just because that's my taste. Original Kiss Guys created it. Exactly, we've got a Max's old station and I'll have that on all day. My wife will have Radio 2, Virgin, Radio 1. So we have completely divergent tastes. For me, my soul plays the music that I couldn't find myself. There's like a real great digging element, new songs, old songs. So it's great for me. I'll have that on all day quite happily. Whereas then, you know, we talk about my daughter. At the moment, it's all a lot of tacos and chicken and bum bum wee wee.

15:38Hilarious songs, obviously. But when we go to radio, she absolutely loves fun kids. And I tell you what, she sings along with those songs. That's the funny thing. In the back of the car, I hear her sing along to an Ed Sheeran song or something like that. And I'm like, wow, it really goes in. You're an excellent father, I'd say that. Well, I hope so. Anyway, I guess the point is, in terms of what you're saying about should they lean in, I think what's been interesting is radio has somewhat homogenized itself by networking. Yeah, yeah, I agree. Out of a necessity, because the money wasn't there for local stations, but out of that has come these more genre-focused stations, like The Chills or The Decades or whatever you might have.

16:19Or it could even Rince or Alameda. We've seen adjacent stations focusing on the individual genre. If a radio station doesn't have a really clear idea of what the music is, listeners will depart. Absolutely. I think if they know what they're there for and they have the right presenters with it, then they can succeed. Let me talk a bit about Popmasters. So 10 years on from Brexit and the original big show, Romaniacs, quite a large independent podcast network. You told Podcasting Today this week that we are nowhere near peak podcast. I just thought I'd chuck that out there. More growth, where is it coming from?

16:58What's your push? Here's my take, hot spicy take. Are we in a world where there'll no longer be an interesting podcast created tomorrow? that could be the world's biggest? I don't think so. I think there's so much further to go with the format. People don't argue about audio, video, blah, blah, blah. The format in itself, we all understand what a podcast is, if it is audio, if it is video. And I think the creativity around it, we've barely scratched the surface. I mean, for example, there's a podcast in America called Friends Keep Secrets, which is a rapper, Lil Dicky, a producer, Benny Blanco, and Lil Dicky's wife.

17:33and they've put cameras all around like a couple of rooms and they just shoot constantly they bring guests in and literally little dickie's there sitting on the loo the cameras are rolling they've got ptz cameras and it's it's like a show is it a podcast they say it's a podcast yeah yeah we're starting to blur the line so it's kind of moving in that direction i think there's a lot of opportunity for innovation on the flip side i think this is where you know we talk about tv will there be another amazing TV show that's really different? That's harder to say because they're so much more expensive to make.

18:10Commissioners generally go towards the safer options but that means there's less variety, people lose interest. So that's why I think we're not near peak podcasting. When you're making a podcast, are you making a show? Is it platform agnostic? Is it for different audiences in different places? What's the job of creating a successful show? So there's this, was it the AMP thing that Oxford Road did? And they came out with the definition of a podcast, which is it's a podcast if it still works when you close your eyes. And I like that. I like that. I think that. I mean, for us, we're audio first, but everything is videoed nearly.

18:51The video is two people sitting down or three people or four people having a conversation. Some people love to see that. Some people want to listen to it. Personally, I listen when I'm cycling or when I'm in the gym. I'm not watching. Yeah. But we have, I do a podcast with my wife. Today is the first video episode that we're doing because we've had so many people say, please put it on video and a cast have enabled it now. So I think video is very important because for some people that's what they prefer. And also when you're talking about conversation, which is the predominant format for podcasting now, you want to see people's reactions, right?

19:24Whereas audio drama is so much more difficult. Well, an audio drama is visualised as a Netflix. I mean, well, I think yes and no. I think there's some really great innovation happening in audio drama at the moment. I've just gone last week I was doing, I was at Goldhangers The Rest Is Fest, which was a really fantastic, you know, talking about innovation and barely scratching the surface. This was a three-day takeover at the South Bank Centre. You know, this is huge. And they put on a live production of their audio drama Sherlock & Co. Which is huge. Which is huge. And I didn't know how they were going to do it, and not to give any spoilers, it was not a play you know it was not a play in a room it was very much still an audio drama and i think that's really interesting but also um granny eats wolf are putting on a live production of their godfather in harlem on friday i think it's i think it audio drama is a really interesting space right now because a lot of this comes back to the fact that maybe our collective conscious doesn't go back as far as we think in audio because radio plays were fantastic you know i remember listening to the john lecari stuff with simon russell beale and just being completely blown away by it and i think now younger audiences are coming to audio drama from a new perspective and going this is great i don't i don't need the visuals you know well audio books are there right yeah that's the kind of halfway house yeah so i can definitely see a world whereby audio drama has a resurgence yeah not to say it's not having one now well stay tuned for my media blog next plug ahead yeah yeah um you guys also working sort of with people that traditionally maybe youtubers say kind of fin versus history has been uh a real success why why has that why has that done well them the format the distribution you guys where does it work i think it's all us so how that show came about i think it's important to have context so we worked with fin on a show called paper cuts which we did for a couple of years and this is when fin was still very successful, been on TV and stuff, but he wasn't getting the connection with audiences.

21:30So he would, I mean, he said this, you know, I'll be on Live at the Apollo, and I couldn't send any tickets for a show. So he just said, I'm going to do this myself. I'm going to just be true to what I think is funny and not sanitise it for TV. So he built up Finn vs. the Internet, which is his first kind of show, and then there was just this groundswell of interest in him and you could really feel it building up. And he phoned me, I think it was December 23, 24, I lose the ears, and he said, I'm doing this YouTube show, I want to put it on a podcast, I don't know what I'm doing, can you take care of that bit of it?

22:06I was like, yeah, no problem. I was like, you should try this Spotify video thing, it's coming about. He's like, yeah, we'll do that. So two years on, well, over two years on now, I think, they've just re-signed with us. the show does about 6 million a month it's absolutely enormous Spotify video is the biggest source of views should I say and of that 70 % of the people consuming it, I hate that word but consuming on Spotify are watching it so why was it so popular? I think there's a huge there's a huge momentum behind him he wanted something he could do a show whereby there was two of them it's really important he has horatio there but also producer charlie because it creates this gang feel and that's what people get behind he's passionate about history so it's a genuine kind of format and i think that the thing everything together was great and there's nothing like it because he kind of says the things you're not allowed to say you know it's very boys saying stuff um but that works for people and i think what's really interesting is from that we've actually signed quite a few fellow comedy podcasts and we've got screen rot with um jake farrell and jake hawley we've got boys gone wild we're just about to sign another big one and they all have this thing in common whereby the listeners are super super passionate they all have huge patrons relative to their size oh yeah when we run ads on there i would recommend anyone going to listen to the surf shark ad that finn runs in a show and your jaw would hit the floor because you're like, there's no way a brand would allow this to happen.

23:43It's their best performing activity in Western Europe. At least it was a little while back when we caught up. Because it's so genuine, these guys know how to sell it to their audience. Absolutely. And just on the money side, on the business side of that, for that kind of enterprise, is the cash coming from Spotify partner program money? Is it the Patreon? Is it ads? What keeps it all afloat? um well i think it's there's no um it's no secret that finn's uh patron is the biggest in the country absolutely so 55 000 people supporting him everyone can do the maths themselves by going online um spotify video is a huge part of the income as well um ads have been really important uh but i would say patron and spotify video probably the biggest resources yeah and i just I agree.

24:34I think subscriber fandom is so vital for podcasts. I wrote a report on this, but it offers a different avenue to monetizing and growth. So I think when podcasting, especially video podcasting, got started, it was about let's get this on YouTube, let's make it clippable, let's do this, let's do that. And it's seen by millions of people, and that's great if that's what you want. but it's a very kind of superficial level of engagement what's another path to monetization and as i say there's a report on this on the media site but it's about that depth of engagement and as you say that fandom that comes from patreon subscribers and you don't need that many of them so you can dig into your niche and know your audience in a way that you can't if you're just looking for mass appeal i'd say a patron subscriber is worth about 100 to 200 times more than a standard listener if the standard listener listens to every single show in a year yeah that's a fantastic quote and i completely agree and whether that's patreon or if you do it like you know i think um the subscription car supporting class supporting cast you know whatever that kind of whatever you're using but really what you want to do is get to a point where you're creating something so people don't just listen they want to become part of the club yeah well whilst everyone works out the numbers for the the the patreon income um how can people keep up with your work and what you're doing at the moment um i'd love to say our website but it's uh it's generally poorly updated linkedin is probably a good spot um i've just handed over the keys of the social media pages to both the social media manager and the youngest person in the office who's doing tiktoks of me without my consent um but um i think yeah largely through that we try and be quite active i'm trying to be more um out there this year to let people know how we're doing i mean you know right now we're on about 8.6 million downloads listens views per month and growing and like the shows that we have are just doing great guns so my job this year is to tell everyone about it good well thank you for doing it here and laura how can people keep up with you in the report how can they get hold of that we are actually offering audio academy members as well as festival attendees 20 % off and then yeah LinkedIn okay old faithful yeah thank you both

27:04hello media club listeners Patrick here from podcast discovery the podcast marketing company where this week we've been at the British podcast awards we're a company with a long history in podcast awards and we're always happy to help out our clients with submissions be it the bpas apas ipas or any other acronym we are on hand to help you understand what the judges want to hear congratulations to this year's winners want to join them get in touch at podcast discovery.com that's podcast discovery.com

27:39Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like. And that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance and some pay as little as$0 depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments.

28:16You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality licensed therapists across the U.S. offering both virtual and in-person sessions nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash ACAST. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. Still waiting in line?

28:59Again? That's time you'll never get back. Save time and money with Stamps.com. Over 4 million businesses have skipped the line with Stamps.com. Join them to save up to 90 % off carrier rates from your computer or phone right now. Print postage for certified mail, registered mail, and packages in seconds. Then schedule a pickup right from your home or office. For a limited time, go to Stamps.com and use code PODCAST for a free welcome gift. Taxes and fees apply.

29:31Welcome back. Here's a few other stories we've been talking about on the club this week. The race to become Channel 4's Director of Programmes is down to two, according to broadcast. After a gruelling five-round process, it's 2.4's David Brindley against former Sky Entertainment chief Stuart Murphy, apparently, who, as it happens, was once a creative director at 2.4 himself. BBC News has permanently removed an online article about how the bare nails trend became a class issue after it went viral with critics in the US. The BBC said the piece didn't challenge quotes linking unpainted nails to white supremacist beauty standards or give them any context.

30:08Published on Saturday, gone by Tuesday, a shorter shelf life than a gel manicure. And James Criddon says it's the most worrying graph he's ever seen about radio's future. The new share of ear data from Edison shows that for young Americans, radio is no longer the number one choice in the car. They're listening to audio from their phones instead. Radio has always owned the dashboard until now. Now, links to all of our stories are available on our weekly sub stack. Just head to themediaclub.com. That's themediaclub.com to sign up for free. Now, we're back here at the BPAs. Let's catch up with the winner of Best Network or Publisher.

30:43Congratulations, BBC World Service, the Network Publisher of the Year. Thank you. Surprise, please. What's the year been like for you then? Well, it's seventh year lucky, Matt, because we've been nominated for this seven years in a row. So we've been to the awards year after year thinking, is this going to be the one? And it never is. And then this time we heard our name. So it's absolutely brilliant. Congratulations. What do you think it was that this year managed to put you over the edge? well we'll have to see what the judges say but I think you know a lot of hard work from all the production teams both in the house and also from the indie sector who make our fabulous podcasts and all the supports from across the BBC great and what have you got coming up that you're hopeful that might do this again next year do you want to talk about Hubble we've got an amazing series called The Trouble with Hubble 13 minutes from our BBC's Space podcast telling the extraordinary story of the Hubble telescope that's coming up next week what else?

31:45and then after that we've got the new season of Inheritance which basically follows a family a big business family the first one was Samson and the next one is the story of Fiat congratulations, well done Ben thank you Matt ok it's Ben, Steve and Sam winners of Podcast of the Year for Hold and Fold congratulations guys thank you so much just shocked so with this award all the people that win gold on the night all go into the second round of judging and you scored it well we didn't know this we had no idea we were shocked at the first one but this one is just completely mind blowing absolutely stunned and it's all these guys these are the talent so why do you think you won two awards tonight I'd like to think it's just pure authenticity of our podcast it's really raw, really authentic you know we've got lived experience at the heart of our podcast really share really sharing like real life experiences but also with that element of hope yeah so listeners can hear that hope you know their recovery is possible you know that there is there is light at the end of the tunnel so it's a show about gambling addiction and something which touches a huge proportion of the country doesn't it yeah i think it's under under reported under represented but there's a a lot of people struggling, myself and Steve included.

33:07And I said it last time, 10 years ago, there was no support, there was no awareness, and here we are winning this award. I'm speechless, honestly. I'm not an emotional person, but I feel it. And the show is obviously supported by the Prison Radio Association. What's it been like to work with those on a series like this? They've been amazing. So even when I applied for the position as co-host, I mean, I've never done anything like that before, but Sam and the whole team have been so supportive of Ben and I and it's been amazing to work with them. They've been absolutely brilliant, so supportive of both of us.

33:41Well, congratulations on your two awards, very well deserved. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. OK,

33:52some more guests for part two. Joining me is the Managing Director of the Audio Academy and the person putting on this event today, Radnathel Leach. Hello. Hello. obviously a club member you've been on the show before you've just handed out some fellowships and there's more fellowships to be handed out but who would you add as your your plus one to the club well on fellowships i i can't recommend someone um who deserves it more highly than dr tony phillips yes he was the recipient this morning of the audio academy fellowship which is the highest honour that we award to recognise people who have offered outstanding benefits and contributions to lift and move on audio and also works really tirelessly to support others and whether that's through his shows Hidden Voices No Blacks No Irish No Dogs throughout everything he's done he's always kept an authenticity and a desire to show other people and put their voices forward but he also does that with other people who want to do the same in audio he has been an audio academy mentor for many years he's always inspiring someone talking to someone that you know training someone and his recent work with Axel Cotutti has been absolutely mind-blowing hopefully some people saw that at the audio academy festival last year where he took five minutes out of his address to name check um 10 20 outstanding people today to say okay if you say that you're struggling for talent here are 20 people you should go and talk to right now i mean that's inspiring we should all be doing some of that so dr tony phillips and he was very surprised the fellowships normally catch people uh but by surprise which is quite hard to keep it quiet this is an industry that likes gossip we have great fun with it there's there's a whole next level of manipulation carrying on behind the line lying and cheating next to radnor dave masterman co-founder of significant productions or as the room might know him producer dave uh off of ellis and john um dave who would you add as your plus one who'd like who'd you like to come to the media club with you uh i think uh i'm a huge fan and someone who's had a fantastic week is Angela Scanlon.

36:16I'd love to see her. I think I've known a lot about what she's done when I was over at Audio Always given the podcast she makes over there called Get A Grip and I've been aware that she was going to be lined up for the Radio 2 drive gig for a little while now but I think she deserves everything that comes for her because I think she's absolutely fantastic. I think she straddles that balance really well of she can do mainstream but also there is just that cheeky edge to Angela as well which I think is what has made Get A Grip so popular. so I think she's starting to see those successes and I think it's been a long time coming she's been on a couple of the podcasts that we make as well she was on How Do You Cope with John Robbins and was one of our standout guests there as well and we often see her still at where we record and she's just one of the nicest people so I think she's had a cracking week and is very deserving of it She's a great broadcaster and I think probably would have been a surprise to some people to get the Radio 2 Drive Time gig but I think it's definitely someone that's going to grow into that role and could be there quite a long time.

37:14Yeah, I think so. Yeah, absolutely. I think she has plenty to say. I think she'll be engaging for the audience, but also very relatable for that audience as well. And still just really nice to hear those different voices from different nations and locations that's on Radio 2, which they just never seem to be afraid to go for, which I think is really refreshing still. Isn't it nice having someone surprising? Yes. Very pure surprise. How often do we do that when you announce, when you write, yeah, okay, that makes sense, and being able to have space to grow in a role. Yeah, absolutely. Talking about growing in a role, you've had a busy year, Dave.

37:49You launched Significant Productions in February and then in April, Ellis and John became the first BBC podcast to kind of go commercial under the BBC's new terms with indies. Yes. Two big things happening at the same time. You've been around in radio and podcasting for quite a long time. Why your own shop now? I was having a fantastic time at Audio Always where I was a director. And we still work really closely with Audio Always. And Stu, who runs the company, we still work really closely. So there's no bad blood there, which is fantastic. I think it just got to the point where I realized the one thing that I was loving more than anything else within that role was still leading the Ellis & John brand, who I've been with for 12 years now on and off.

38:34So I was there when we launched on XFM back in 2016. so uh it's it's a show that i love dearly and what the three of us are all very close so you know when i when i broke the news to stew that i was thinking of leaving and fingers crossed taking his biggest commission with me um i was nervous yes but stew you know the gent that he is he said i kind of saw this coming let's work together to make sure this departure and this split can work in the best of everyone's uh interests which i feel we have and now what I get to do is work on and shape the thing that I'm most passionate about and hopefully now grow the company in the shape and in the style of Ellis and John's comedy as it's a hugely successful comedy podcast.

39:19I think that's our direction and that's our strategy as a company now. How do we do more things around Ellis and John that feels, I suppose, in keeping with what their sensibilities are? It's interesting, isn't it? It's quite the journey of talent today and historically come from a radio place where we have the transmitters, we have the stations, talent. We picked talent and we dragged them over to our thing and they had to sort of work for us in our radio minds delivering what we needed. They've somewhat wrestled back control. How does that work with them? You've got a broadcast output with the BBC, you've got their podcasts, their comedians, they do other things.

40:00What's in their heads about where they want to be and what they want to do? Well, so we're co-directors of the company, which I think, you know, a lot of people, as I kind of shared that plan, you know, a few people raised their eyebrows. What, you really want to co-direct with two, you know, quite edgy, quite strong-minded presenters or talents, you know, a slightly more archaic word for it. But actually, it's really worked out because I think, you know, they always knew what they wanted from this podcast and what they are. And, you know, and also they're very aware of their commercial value in the market.

40:29You know, they've got very good friends who do, you know, similar but similarly big podcasts. And they're best mates with Josh Widdicombe and Rob over there and Ramesh and things. So they're very aware and very astute. So it was a bit of a no-brainer for me. They've always been very creative when coming up with their own ideas. Like it's never, I don't think Ellis and John has ever felt like they're making something for a radio station. It's always felt like it's theirs. It just happens to be on a radio station or happens to be on a network or a platform. So I think that autonomy has always been there.

40:59And now we're able to actually really, you know, realize that full potential now as we are the directors of the company. That makes the podcast that essentially is now licensed back to the BBC. So the balance has been really fascinating since we left the BBC in April. But we're over the moon that we can still be licensing it back to the BBC because there is a huge audience there for us. So it would be stupid to be ripping it away from them. So it's, of course, there's risk then once you become commercial. Will it do as well as you'd hope it would commercially? But I'm really happy that we've managed to strike a deal with the BBC.

41:32And I should say Stu Morgan was a big part of that as well before I left Audio Always. And we're happy with how it's gone so far. Radna, once the Radio Academy is now the Audio Academy, that's part about the changing nature of the sector. In some ways you go from the people on the board being radio station owners to now we're in a much broader community. what's the sort of academy's view on all of this and this this makeup of the landscape i'm all for it i mean i said in my welcome address this morning um we've got over 100 years in radio and 43 years at the audio academy of evolving and changing and moving with the times listening to what audiences want where they're going um looking at what technology now offers um and seeing how businesses and business models change um so i think it's really important when we changed our name to the audio academy um it wasn't necessarily a decision to change direction or to be a different charity for a different part of the sector it was to actually have a name that shows what we do who we're there for we have always been for the audio sector it's just that 43 years ago that was radio and there was only radio um and we found it more challenging i suppose having the radio academy as our name to to connect with and engage with people especially newer people to the industry who don't come from a radio background and didn't come through a love of radio they're coming directly through uh streaming or podcasts um they want to create things and they they come to us and they say all this i wish there was something like this for podcasts no no that's us that's weak we're here for you you are part of this bigger community and there is no us and them um and i think that the best way that we can serve audiences and therefore serve our audio industry is by being able to be flexible and and use technology and different listener habits to be more creative and evolve and move from our point of view at the audio academy and in terms of the people that we work with the people on our board it's important for us to keep evolving as well and so we will always have radio bosses on our board we will also have um you know the bosses from podcast uh companies and streaming companies or people who are creating because we're we're here to serve the industry they are the industry so so that's important to kind of mix it up so there is a bit of a change there of course but a really positive one which is actually reflecting what we're here to do is there a difference between what you're making for the radio for podcasts for video um for members ad ad customers ad free customers yeah how long have you got it's that was one of the i'll keep it brief um that was one of the fun challenges how do we do this in a way as we as we pulled away from the bbc one of the biggest things we wanted to do was make sure everyone that experienced ellis and john in the way that they did still got what they got so we were never trying to take anything away from what they already had it was about adding and it was about making sure that ellis and john could then realize some of the ambitions they had as creators and as comedians and you know we do a we do a monthly adventures episode on patreon now which is essentially a mini tv series where they retake their driving test they they play mini golf they run a marathon so we're doing almost a kind of a version of what Mr.

45:01Beast does. Very I should say. Slightly different budget. Yeah, but I think, I was going to chip in there as well because I think one of the reasons why Alice and John is successful is because they have come from radio sensibilities and I think podcasters could do well to remember that at times as well. We basically make a magazine format. We do features. We have scripted intros. We do things that maybe a lot of other podcasts don't do and they're a bit looser and a bit more conversational, which is great, but actually we're really proud that we do John Shamewell, The Cymru Connection, which we'll be talking about later.

45:32We do all these features because it started as a radio show. It wasn't that as soon as it became a podcast, we thought, right, let's scrap all that and we'll just chat. We still wanted that structure. I think there's still a lot of sensibilities that come from radio and broadcasting that I really hope stay around for a long time because I think it really shapes a discipline, which I'm hoping we don't lose as the industry progresses. Exactly, because we've honed that over many, many years, haven't we? and I think that by bringing everyone together into this audio community, because you do have the ability to have a long career where sometimes you're working radio, sometimes you're working podcasts, and that's absolutely right.

46:09We want to be able to share that training, skills, development, understanding in radio, and vice versa, to be able to help other people in radio who are going, oh, there's that shiny thing over there. What is it? Well, let us talk to you about what it is. let's introduce you to Dave who can tell you how he did it and build that bit of community so that we're all growing and we're all carrying those skills along, we're not just reinventing the wheel Just before the quiz, we talked earlier about Patreon and subs We do these adventures apps, which is again, like I say this kind of monthly TV show where Alice and John can be going on adventures and excursions and then we have the usual stuff obviously it's ad free, we have bonus pods that are released every week or every other week as well.

46:57So again, the aim for us was making sure that as we announced all this back in April, we weren't annoying anyone by making it feel like we were taking something away from them. So I think as Martin was saying before, it's a hugely valuable part of our revenue stream now. I think I'm glad we made the decision to put the full visuals in this model and this is where the subscribers are getting it because we do put highlights on YouTube. I'm not seeing anywhere nearly as much as what we're making over here from what we're doing on YouTube to quite an eye-raising extent. So I think we made some decisions that we really had to make a call on, but I'm glad we did put the full visuals there.

47:34I'm glad that's where the adventures are. And I'm also still glad we're doing all this stuff over here for the BBC. We still do a show on Five Live, which is a re-version of the podcast. So I feel we're getting that balance right of making sure we don't ever want to feel like we're disrespecting the people who maybe can't afford to be on Patreon or don't have the time to be consuming that amount of content. we're still really aware and really keen to make sure they don't feel like they're being hard done by. So there's two worlds here which we try and balance the best we can. Okay, Arad and Dave, stay exactly where you are as it's time for the Audio Network Media Quiz.

48:08Three media stories connected by one theme and then shoehorned into the format of an existing media property. This week it's called Citation Needed. I'm going to read you three award citations in my best voice of God voice. just tell me the story the media story that wins and once again Alex Audio Network has taken that red carpet ready brief from producer Matt and created a playlist of music to score today's game but of course we want a clean record so we're going to put all that in post right best of three so you're buzzing with your names if you know the story so Aradna you will say Aradna and Dave you We'll say Dave.

48:45Let's play Citation Needed. And the award for Best Newcomer goes to a 50-minute production with no writers, no cast and no crew. Oh, Adna. Oh, yes. Oh, sorry. No, I'm very pleased that you have to hear my accent anymore. So this was really, really mind-boggling. Matt Britton at the RTS London Convention said that he had been sent an AI version of Doctor Who, so it was made completely by AI. and I think in his words it was not bad actually. He said it was pretty good. Pretty good, even better. I'm not sure he should be saying that at the first hour of the RTS, even if it was pretty good. Okay, here's citation number two.

49:27And the winner is two publicly owned broadcasters who've been circling each other since the summer. Just don't call it a merger. Dave. Yes, Dave. Is this a story around Channel 4 maybe considering one day, maybe bringing some of their programming over to the BBC and putting it on the BBC's platform. But it's not a merger. Not a merger. Definitely not a merger. Channel 4 chief executive Priya Dogra told the RTS again she's open to putting Channel 4 shows on iPlayer, but she ruled out a merger, saying that would amount to a BBC takeover and it would be hard to deal with Channel 4's advertising. Aradna Radio sort of shares similar space with the BBC on Radio Player, worked together before.

50:07Do you think all public service content should be on the iPlayer? I think you've got to do whatever you can to have a platform that works because you're fighting against big tech companies who put a lot of money into their platforms. BritBox did not work. iPlayer does work, so it makes complete sense to me, and it doesn't have to be a merge, and you don't have to take over. It allows you to do what you do well and for PSBs to have a collected voice to say, we have amazing content, because they really do. Okay, one more to go. this prize is shared unusually between 40 winners each has two to three years under their belt and everything to learn audio video photography text and audience engagement aradna yes this is really exciting news the guardian has launched a new apprenticeship training scheme with 40 people they've got 40 spaces which is brilliant um and the idea is for journalists to also be well-versed in content creation and to get the training.

51:07I was quite astounded by how much they like video, audio, socials, and, and, and, but great. And they get a degree at the end. Yeah, also, the 18-month contracts and salary's 48 grand, so it's not pretty good. That's pretty good. Right, I think that makes Radnor our winner. Congratulations. You can find 40 new interns for the Media Club to help us grow our subscription offering. You can do that at your price. My thanks to Radna and Dave and also to Martin and Laura earlier. Also, thank you to Alex Audio Network for supplying today's music. And remember, Audio Network can do that for you as well.

51:42Just head to audionetwork.com or click the link in the show notes. So before we go, Radna, how can people keep up with the Audio Academy? What's the easiest way? You can find us at audioacademy.org.uk. You can find us on LinkedIn and Instagram. And you can come and grab me at any Audio Academy event. Lovely. and Dave your new gaff how can people find out what you're up to I would say it's that feels significant at Instagram I should do more on LinkedIn I'm aware of that and it's something that I heard Martin say earlier good and thank you all for coming and to everyone at the Audio Academy for having us my name is Matt Deegan the producer is Matt Hill it was a Rethink Audio production with visual support from Podcast Discovery I'll see you next week

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53:29That's Today in History with The Retrospectors. 10 minutes each weekday, wherever you get your podcasts.