Change Your Relationship With Alcohol – How to Control Your Urge to Drink

25:49But it's all about using a set period of time to practice skills, right? I'm not following how your approach is different than say the times that I've taken a break from drinking and participated in dry January? I have people take a 30 day break from drinking. And I believe it's very different than kind of like a dry January or sober October, because what I'm always telling people is the 30 days, I want you to focus on using the tools. Yes, we are using the tools to say no, but I want you to focus on like all the techniques to manage my urges, all the techniques to talk back to my excuses. You know, dry January, the point is making it 30 days.

26:37And I'm like, listen, we're doing these 30 days. It doesn't matter if you drink on day number two, that's good data, right? That means something didn't work. Let's look at what didn't work. I want you to focus on using the tools. I'm going to be using these tools and And I'm going to be discovering some work better than others. I will tell you, that's a huge mindset shift for people. A lot of people, you know, they say I'm all or nothing when it comes to drinking. I actually think they're all or nothing about commitment, right? I either was committed and I did it right and gold star, or I broke my commitment.

27:16And now it's like, okay, why bother, right? I made a mistake. So now I get to have as much as I want. learning how to change means developing a different relationship with commitment. Like, okay, yesterday. Wait, say that again. Learning how to change means developing a different relationship with commitment. You can't have an all or nothing relationship with commitment. It can't be I was good, I was committed, and I followed through and I was good, or I broke my commitment, I was bad. That mindset, you're screwed. So what do you do with that person who says, okay, we're going to do the 30 days of not drinking and I'm going to try the tools.

27:59And you get really, really horrible news. The last time I wasn't drinking, I got news that a friend of ours died. And I was like, fuck this shit. I'm having a cocktail. So if I were doing the 30 days with you, what is the data? Like, what can I learn from that day where I didn't keep my commitment to myself? Yeah. Look back, what was happening in the moment, right? Like when you were saying, fuck this shit, what was going on? What were you saying? Fuck this shit too. Life being hard, commitment being hard. if I go a little bit deeper, it was being really pissed off and really sad that my friend had died and wanting to just like numb it out.

28:51Yeah. All I wanted to do was fucking have a drink and lay down on the couch and cry about my friend. Yeah. I mean, so all of a sudden we get to see it like through the lens of like, oh, it was sadness. It was grief. It was the belief that like this emotion is too big. It's too much. I can't handle it. I don't want to be with it. I shouldn't have to be with it, which also so normal. Yeah. And so it's like, yeah, of course your brain went to the thing that it's like, I know how we get out. Like I know the shortcut. Here's the shortcut to not have to feel our emotions. We have to drink. That's the lower brain, right?

29:31Yeah, that's the lower brain going, I recognize this pattern. Right. And so all of a sudden, it's like, oh, okay, what this wasn't me breaking my commitment and being bad. This was me in the moment of having all of this pain and sadness bubble up not feeling like I had an alternative for how to manage it or handle it. How does recognizing that help you have a stronger muscle when it comes to commitment? You're either good or you're bad. You either have integrity or you don't. You either stick to your promises or you're a fuck up and you never will. Like, you know, like that kind of thinking. And And if I take on a 30 day challenge and I fuck it up on day 12, then I fucked up the whole thing.

30:22Right. But remember, what did I say the goal of the challenge was? It's not to not drink for 30 days. No, I know. It's like, it's not drinking, right? We said not drinking. It's not drinking. The goal was to use the tools. Use the tools. But I didn't lose the tools. So I actually didn't do the challenge. See how quick I am to like go bad, Mel. Okay. So now we don't use, so like this happens on day two. So day three, we can't go back to using the tools. Yeah, we can. Yeah. And we just make progress so much faster, right? When we're not, it's kind of like, oh, well, I tried and that didn't work.

31:02Now I was bad. Now I'm going to go into shame spiral and I'm either just going to like stop trying, right? Because it's like, see, nothing works. I was going to like give up. I would either go into the like, okay, nothing works. Let's just like F it. I just have permission to like drink and eat and like do all the things that I want to do. Or I would go into the place of like, okay, now we're going to make like the super crazy restrictive rule because I was so bad. But like deep down, I know I can't follow it at all. People do that on diets nonstop. Yeah. I see such a direct parallel with eating.

31:38Yeah. I'm starting to see that if you take on a 30-day challenge like this to use the tools and to use the tools to not drink for 30 days as a way to learn and develop the muscle of commitment and understanding yourself better, if you screw up on day two or 12 or 28, and then you bash yourself for not having a perfect streak, the likelihood is I would then just bail on the challenge altogether. Yeah. Except what if it wasn't a screw up? Like what if you didn't make a mistake? I mean, like what if the decision to say yes to the drink wasn't a mistake? It wasn't a screw up. Well, how could it not be if I am making a commitment?

32:32Because maybe it's trying to give you insight into something that you are missing, like a skill that you don't have or a response that you don't have to an excuse or something that you're, you know, like you're not aware of, like maybe you don't have the awareness. So I'm using it as a boundary. Rachel, you just keep dropping the knowledge and I just keep having epiphany after epiphany. And I know that it's one everybody's going to relate to. So I'm going to share this insight that I just had right after we return from a short break. Stay with us.

33:09welcome back it's your friend mel and you and i are here with rachel hart and i don't know about you but i am having a light bulb moment after a light bulb moment and just before the break i had a huge insight that is another reason why i have so much conflict about alcohol and the insight is I hate being told what to do. Oh yeah. Me too. Even by myself. Even if I said I want to do this thing, I'm not going to do that thing that I said that I would do. I'll show you. Is that a normal thing that you hear with people? Yes. This is a huge thing. I often talk to people when they're really struggling.

33:50It's like, okay, so what is the language that you're using to say no to the drink? They're like, well, I'm just saying that I can't have a drink. Okay. When you tell yourself you can't have a drink, how does that make you feel? Pissed off. Yes. Yeah. Because here's the thing. It's not even true that you can't have a drink. Explain that. You're like, but we said we can't. Well, I mean, we're, you're an adult woman. Of course you can drink. You're choosing to say no. There's such a big difference between like, Like when I tell myself I can't have something versus, okay, I'm choosing not to and here's why.

34:34The more I listen to you, the more it's really sinking in. I'm so fixated on the gin and tonic, but this isn't about alcohol. Because the urge to numb or escape or join in or relax or turn off your work mind or just find pleasure, that's not going to go anywhere. You're always going to have those feelings. Most people come to me and they just say like, how do I get rid of it? Like, I don't want to have this desire. I don't want to have the urge. I wish it wasn't there. And I think what we forget is that like urges are part of the human experience for everything, right? It's not just like the urge to drink, right?

35:08We have the urge to eat maybe more than we want to. We have the urge to stay in bed. And so again, instead of having this idea, spend 30 days and just like fight against these excuses. It's like, well, what if we could learn how to talk back to them in a way that's really believable? Wow. Of course, the urge is here. Or even just, I mean, one of my first things really is just naming that you're having an urge. And when I introduced that to people, so I was like, what is this woman talking about? You just want me to say, oh, I'm having an urge. And I think it's incredibly powerful and beneficial because all of a sudden, we're activating our higher brain.

35:47All of a sudden, we're not just on autopilot, we're narrating what's going on. Oh, this is an urge. Of course I'm having an urge. It's five o 'clock. My brain learned this is what we do. We get a reward at five o 'clock. Of course it's here. Well, when I have that urge, my first reaction is there's something wrong with you, Mel. There's something wrong with having the urge to have a glass of wine tonight. But you're saying don't focus on the glass of wine. Just recognize, oh, there's that urge to have one. If you're trying to say no, if you want to drink less, all of a sudden it's like, oh God, the urge is here.

36:26And now my anxiety has just kicked on too, because I wish it wasn't there and I wish it would go away. And I think that it's a sign that something is wrong with me or my brain is broken or whatever. And so like, can we just name it? Can we normalize it? Like, yeah, of course. When I watch baseball, I'm having the urge for a beer because at some point my brain learned, this is what you do when you watch baseball. What's so great about this is that it's still empowering you to understand the psychological drivers. So you understand and know yourself better. And that supports the work you're going to do if you are sober, or if you go through all of this and where it leads you is to just a totally different relationship with alcohol that works for you.

37:20You still have to do the deeper work to understand psychological data that is driving you to try to answer the urge with a drink. That's really amazing. We don't just have urges when it comes to a drink. We have urges around food. We have urges around spending money. We have urges to procrastinate. Like we're always going to have competing desires, right? We always have this part of us that has the dream and the goal, and this is what I want to do. And this is how I want to spend my time. And we have the part of us that's like scrolling through TikTok, right? And looking for that easy way to distract ourselves or feel better or stay in our comfort zone.

38:05And so that's always going on. And I personally think that learning this work around my urges to drink is what kind of took my life to the next level, because it was like, Oh, okay. Now I can apply the skill to anything that I'm doing. It's not unique to just saying no to a drink. It's something that I can apply across the board. It's an essential life skill. Yes. And we don't teach people like this is what's so frustrating for me is we're constantly giving people messages, just say no, drink responsibly, enjoy in moderation, know when to say when. We're getting all these messages about what we should be doing and nobody gives us the how.

38:47Nobody explains how we're supposed to do it. And so I think what happens is people start to internalize, this should just be something I can naturally do. I should instinctually know how to say no, be responsible, right? Know when to say when. And if I can't figure it out, oh, something must be wrong with me. As opposed to, no, people gave you a bunch of messages with no tools, no techniques, no understanding about the brain. I mean, that just is, that really infuriates me. I can tell. So let's just take, for example, the second I'm done talking to you I'm gonna leave my podcast studio I'm gonna look out at a beautiful sunset and I'm going to have an urge to make a margarita yep so when you say name the urge does it is just saying did I just do that no I'm like when it's happening oh and I love it's happening right now because now I'm talking about it, but I love the sunset piece.

39:55So, because like the number of people that I have coached on, like, how am I supposed to sit on my porch anymore and like enjoy a sunset? And it's like, sunsets were enjoyable before you started drinking. Right. We just, the brain started to associate, oh, I get a reward when I watch a sunset. So now when you take the reward away, it feels like something's missing from the sunset. Nothing's missing from the sunset. Right. You're right. Except for the drink. Right. I'm making a joke out of this, but I'm not really this cavalier about it. So when I leave here and I have the urge, I just, as I'm walking downstairs, I say, oh, I'm having that urge to make a drink.

40:33Yeah. So you can say it to yourself. You can say it out loud. Both of it works. The idea is really just acknowledging what's going on. Like, oh, this is an urge. I'm having an urge right now. This is desire. Oh, how normal. Of course it's here. Right. This isn't a problem. This is what my brain learned. Oh, of course, this is desire. I think that's a very, very powerful thing to start to be able to narrate what your brain is doing because all of a sudden you're not at the effect of your brain. Part of you is watching it. that makes sense. But how do you counsel your clients about the fact that drinking is bad for your health?

41:14I mean, medically speaking, the newest recommendations that I just saw published in academic journals was absolutely no more than two drinks a week if you're going to drink. And it is poison. I mean, we can agree on that. And yet I'm one of those people that I know it's poison and I still do it, which of course makes me feel like even more shitty about myself. I'm not denying that it can have negative consequences, but what I see happen to people, and I did this with myself as well, you start going down that rabbit hole of all the ways that it's harming you and all the, you know, poisonous, toxic effects that it's having on your body.

41:56and you're still struggling to say no, or you're still drinking more than you want. And now you're waking up the next day and you're like doubly stupid because now you really should know better. So not only was it like, Oh God, why did I have that like fourth glass? But, and I know all the harm that it's doing. And I know how bad it is for me. There's already so much shame around drinking. People are so hard on themselves. It just becomes like another layer of see something really is wrong with me because now I know how bad it is. I know it's poisoning me as opposed to like, listen, alcohol is just, it's a fact of being alive on this planet, right?

42:38So what if instead of fixating on it's so bad, right? But it's true, Rachel. So why shouldn't we focus on how harmful it is for our health? I think that takes you away from this conversation that I think is more powerful, Right. What does it represent? What is my desire really about? Why is it hard for me to say no? How do I feel when, you know, I'm the odd man out? Right. What are those emotions that come up for me? That is so much more powerful area, I think, to start to get curious about rather than all the bad things that it's doing. Well, I agree with you. And when I gave that example of it's dinner time, the sun is setting, I'm going to make a cocktail.

43:19The truth is the desire is to stop working. The desire is to exhale and stop thinking for a minute. The desire is to reward myself for a job well done.

43:37and in naming that, it also takes my focus off the drink and it helps me get present to what I actually want. You know what's crazy is that if I start shaming myself by saying, Mel, it's poison in a wine glass, you know what happens is it just makes me want the poison in the wine glass even more. And then it makes me feel even worse and now my internal conflict is all about how bad it is when what you're saying is, if you go that route of shaming yourself, you miss out on the way more powerful insight and breakthrough that you can have, which is noticing without judgment, oh, I have the urge to drink right now.

44:22What is that about? The workday is over. Oh, I want to turn off my brain. That makes sense. So what do I need to do right now to take care of myself? mm-hmm what immediately came to mind is i need a hug yeah

44:40but isn't that harder to ask for sometimes than a drink well you can't order one from a waiter

44:50it's true and i can make myself a drink so i don't have to ask for anything right yeah if i go to the 14 year old me, that red solo cup represented a hug and being welcomed into the group. Yeah. And so I can see what you're saying to name when you feel that urge that is deeper than the food or the drink or the pair of jeans you're about to buy. And so of course you would want the thing. And of course, not giving yourself the jeans or the ice cream sundae or the Mai Tai feels like you're punishing yourself. Yeah. I think a big thing is just watching it pass. So that's a huge thing that a lot of people struggle with.

45:38It's like, listen, if I don't say yes, it's going to be nagging me all night long. Can I confess something to you? Of course. Is it normal? for someone to be worried that you're about to tell me not to have a drink tonight. That I'm about to tell you? Yes, that you're about to coach me through this process of noticing the urge, letting it rise and fall. And then at the end of this, I'm now going to have more conflict about the urge. And then you want to know how fucked up I am? then I'm going to feel like this is now all evidence that I have an even bigger problem. That's how much of a shame cycle I'm in around this.

46:26Yes, this is very normal. I'm not going to tell you anything to do. I mean, I think that's actually a huge piece of of my approach is that I don't know what's best for you. I'm not going to tell you what to do because you're just going to be then looking to me or looking for someone outside of you to tell you what's right. I think you have wisdom and information inside of you. And that's not like a wink wink, you know, you shouldn't drink. I really do think that we have this ability to know what what feels good for us and what feels like too much. But we can't access that if it's constantly in this place of like, oh, oh God, I shouldn't even be wanting this or I shouldn't even have this desire.

47:11I can totally see how that's true. At least it is for me. Right, like I didn't think more is better just with a drink. I thought it was better with food. I thought it was better with stuff. I thought it was better with success. I thought it was better with money. I thought it was better with praise. Like that was just kind of the overarching principle of how I was operating. And it wasn't just showing up for me in one place. And that, I think that created a lot of freedom for me because I walked around for a long time being like, I don't know, I've got like eight different problems or not. Or maybe I have, I have one thing that I'm working on, which is how to understand, like identify how I'm feeling and what I need and how to be okay with an unmet desire and how to fulfill it elsewhere.

48:03You're exactly right. How did you figure this out? Like, was there a particular moment? Like, did you have like a massive bender? And then you're like, I can't drink again. Then you like reverse engineered this. You go to school. How did you figure this out? I spent my 20s going like back and forth between I'm drinking, I'm not drinking, I'm drinking, I'm not drinking. But the not drinking was always you were bad. You should be ashamed of yourself. Now it's time to punish yourself. We're just going to focus on saying no. And so I would say no and say no and feel like something was wrong with me and I was missing out and I, you know, was very healthy, but wasn't enjoying myself as much.

48:40And then eventually I would give in and go pick up right back where I left off. I'm sure that's how everyone feels about drinking and being in this back and forth. I'm on, I'm off, I'm drinking, I'm not drinking, I'm bad, I'm good. I mean, that's exactly where I am right now, which is why I want to talk to you and learn more about the process that you use with people. I was in this process in this cycle for so long and I had some awareness that it was bigger than the drink I felt like I wasn't able to access a part of myself without the drink I remember believing that like the fun Rachel the real Rachel like she comes out with a drink and again there was a part of me that was like I don't think I always needed that right it's so relatable I feel like the relaxed, I'm off the clock Mel comes out with a drink.

49:32The Mel that's not racing through a day, got a million things I need to do, tons of people I need to call, people that are relying on me. I pour that drink and I'm on vacation. I'm off the clock. It's the Mel that can sit down, put her feet up, stop thinking and just take a breath and look at the sunset for a minute. We have such a limited, narrow conversation how we talk about this. It's kind of like, do I have a problem or don't I have a problem, right? Am I an alcoholic or am I a normal drinker? We're very black and white. And I think there are a lot of people that feel like they're in this kind of in-between and being in that in-between can feel incredibly frustrating.

50:10And it's like, nobody understands my situation or what's going on for me. So all of this makes so much sense. And now I'm of course leaning in and going, I want to learn more about the actual process. So when someone comes to you, Rachel, and they say, can you help me figure out what a normal relationship with alcohol would look like for me, or even broadening it out for those of you that aren't like dealing with this with alcohol. Anything that you're struggling with, a normal relationship would look like for you with shopping, spending money, vaping, video games, porn, the urge to avoid things, overeating.

50:42Rachel, what is the process and how do you start it for yourself? Yeah, I think that one of the most important things to do is really first understand your mindset. And when I say mindset, I mean, when you think about, well, what are my reasons for drinking? And what do I make it mean that I struggle to say no? Right? What do I make it mean when I struggle to follow through on my commitment? If you think about being told that you couldn't drink again, what about that would be upsetting for you? Because when you start asking these questions, it's going to reveal some of your thoughts about yourself, your ability to change, your urges, alcohol, all of that.

51:26We were at a friend's house the other night and they opened up one of those super expensive French bottles of wine where you have to like push the gray dust off of it. And I'm like, Ooh, I'm not going to miss out on that. I hadn't had a drink that night, but the second they pulled that out, it's like FOMO, this is going to be expensive. I'm going to try this shit. the big question that you asked at the end, which is what does what was the big question? Because it made my heart go, oh, God. Sorry, Mel, we're telling you, you can't drink for the rest of your life. I would feel like I'd never have fun again.

51:58Yeah. Like I'd miss out on all the celebrations. I mean, I was like, I'm sorry, how are we supposed to watch March Madness? Like, what am I ever going to have sex again? I don't understand. Like, what? Like, they were just so I was like, are you kidding? So am I ever going to go to a wedding? Should I just not go to weddings anymore? I'm not going to have sex. We're not going to enjoy sports. Like, I guess I'm never going to dance in public. There were just like so many things. I was like, well, you got to be kidding me. Like you're literally talking about a miserable life. So yeah, no, thank you.

52:35I'll pass. So what do you do if that's everything that you think? When somebody fills all that out and they're like, okay, I'm never going to have sex. I'm not going to dance in public. I can't go to a sports game. My life will be no fun. All my friends who drink won't ever invite me out. I'm going to endure awkward moment after awkward moment where everybody else orders to drink. And I'm like, could I have a seltzer, please? Can I have the mocktail menu? And I don't want to miss out on all the fun. And I don't want to do like when you write out your excuses, that almost makes you feel like you would retreat toward binge drinking.

53:08Yeah, because it's like, oh, we're, we have nothing to look forward to, right? Yes. So one of the things I talk about in all those situations that I listed, like the worst thing that's going to happen is a feeling. That's true. But I don't think we understand it that way. Like, no, the worst thing that's going to happen is my life is going to be over. Yes. So you start to be like, okay, so what is that feeling that comes up when I get on the dance floor, right? Totally sober. What is that feeling that I'm having when I'm sitting in the stands watching baseball and everybody has a beer and I don't, right?

53:48Like what is that feeling? Like to start to identify the real issue here is not the drink. The real issue is this feeling, oh God, if this comes up, then there's nothing to do.

54:03right? What you're doing is you're just teaching people how to handle the feelings that come. Yeah. I mean, it starts even just with like identifying what the feeling is, because that's a huge piece that I work on with people. It's like, I'm fine. I'm like, I'm fine. Okay, fine's not a feeling. Like, how are we actually feeling? So again, much like your urges, the ability to just name and notice and also not make it a problem. Can you give us an example of what that sounds like when you notice the urge and name it and not make it wrong? Like, I feel disappointed right now. How human of me. That's okay.

54:45We're supposed to feel disappointed sometimes. I can feel disappointed now because I'm not having the drink or I can feel disappointed later because I didn't follow through on my commitment. But disappointments come in either way. So which one am I going to choose? Oh my God, I just got something. I just got something really powerful. Holy shit. Do you want to know why I always lose the battle with myself? When I start a Sunday night and I say, you know, I'm not going to drink this week. I'll just wait until next weekend. And then Monday rolls around six o 'clock. I go downstairs. It's the sunset.

55:25I feel the desire. to pour a gin and tonic because this is my boundary between work. I now understand what it is. When I start to get in conflict with myself, Rachel, well, you said you weren't going to have a drink, but I feel like having a drink. What's wrong with having a drink? Well, you said you wouldn't. And that's a lack of a, I have a drink to shut that conflict down. Yeah. I'm not having a drink because I'm addicted to alcohol. I'm having a drink because I can't tolerate being in conflict with those two competing parts of me. Holy shit. That's why the drink habit always wins because it shuts it down.

56:11It's really like even less about alcohol, right? It's just like, how am I making it okay and normalizing conflict? Like internal conflict is okay. yeah that's pretty cool I think I'm going to try the 30 days not today but no I want to I'm like really interested in this because I think I'm tired of the conflict yeah within me and I think there's peace that's accessible in this and it is very freeing for somebody like me and I think for a large number of you listening to go oh wait a minute I don't have to choose between I drink all the time and I don't drink at all. I can end the internal conflict that I feel and I can learn more about urges and desires and tolerating things and operate from my higher brain instead of letting my lower brain control me.

57:05And I can get myself out of this cycle of shame and management and conflict and all this shit by simply trying what you're saying for 30 days of using these tools and naming the desire and tolerating the desire and watching your excuses and going a layer deeper. I had a client once say, when I was working with her on her compelling reasons, I had her say, I just want to be the captain of my own soul. And I was like, yeah. I love the captain of the soul because I am somebody who is uber intentional and uber in control and have done so much work on myself. The one area where I have this friction between old and new is this conflict I feel around whether or not I'm going to have a cocktail.

57:55And you have been so profoundly helpful because I have realized I have a major issue with a boundary between work and relaxing and turning my brain off and the desire to join in and belong with others. And they're all tied up with alcohol for some dumb reason. I've been focused on the alcohol, not the much richer and deeper opportunity of knowing myself. So thank you. You're welcome. Thanks for having me. Of course. And thank you for being here. Thank you so much. I could feel your arm around me as we were having this conversation. And now I want to put my arm around you. I want to make sure to tell you that I love you and I believe in you.

58:49And I believe in your ability to create a better life for yourself. However you define that, whatever that means for you. And what that means for me is I am going to try this 30 day thing. So thank you for being here and helping me find the courage to take a look at this. because it's a hell of a lot easier to face your stuff and change together. All right. I'll talk to you in a few days.

59:18Okay. Squeeze into this. Oh, wow. Wow. This is like Tool City, man. Tool City. Okay. Oh, shit. Jesus, my kids always call while we're having a podcast. Goodbye. Okay. Mama's ought to talk about drink. That's a boundary, okay? I'm still on the clock. Excuse me. Let me take a step. So is that straight vodka in the thing that you just had a drink? Oh, yeah. This is, yeah.

59:57Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know, what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist. and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode. Stitcher.