Former CIA Spy: How to Read Anyone, Think Clearly, and Protect Yourself

23:59Mel Robbins:As part of the disguise of the whole thing to be able to extract these American hostages. The whole thing was a disguise. Tony had set up an office out in LA. It was staffed. He had taken out advertisements in the Hollywood Reporter and Variety, full-page ads, Argo, a cosmic conflagration. It's going to be a great movie. It turns out, when it was all over, the Iranians wanted to check. There were phone numbers. They could call that office, that fake office, and some fake employee would answer and say in a fake voice, oh no, they're on a location scout, they had to understand that no matter how the Iranians came at this, they would find a genuine, bona fide office with posters up and people to the phones and, you know, and they even carried some of those magazines with Sia.

24:55What Tony did with Argo was he created this fake reality. We had never done like that before. He created a whole fake world, a universe, where everybody was doing their thing and in front of the professionals out in Hollywood. And it was just so brilliant.

25:16Mel Robbins:Like, it's fascinating just to hear about your world, because part of me is sitting here thinking, wait, this is actually happening? This is crazy. Given that I'm not in the CIA, although I could be lying to you, but I don't think coming right out and saying something that you're not is probably an effective way of disguising yourself, although maybe it is. I'm on the outside. So I can only imagine, OK, what does the chief of disguise do? Is this like Mission Impossible, born identity? I'm running into an apartment and there's, you know, five passports and money. Is that what this is? The passports and money would be my husband's.

25:59I would be the mustache and the beard in the little vault in the bank that he opens up and he goes flipping through. We gave James whatever he needed. We called them all James. It was not very kind of us. We were the Office of Technical Service. We were the technical people supporting operations. James and his friends, they had a job that I couldn't have done, which was to be so charming and so well-spoken and so—that they could convince people to betray their government. I mean, that's a tall order. Sometimes we were looking for charisma when we hired James. We wanted him to be the guy you meet at the bar.

26:45And when you walk out, oh, my God, you're like his best friend. and you've got each other's numbers and you're going to stay in touch and all of that. That's the James that we wanted. But we discovered somewhere along the line that that James wasn't going to flourish in our environment because that James needed attention and he needed praise and he needed applause and he needed feedback constantly. And in the real CIA, none of that happened. There were no attaboys. There were no stars putting on paper for you. There was no thank you. There was, okay, the next job now, we're going to go and do this.

27:26There was no applause.

27:28Mel Robbins:Oh, wow. What does it take to be a good spy? Or James, if you will. Well, if you're going to be James. That's the code word for a spy because you don't want to call him by their first name? That's James Bond. That's the operational guy. Okay. The way it works is CIA says, here's our program for next year. In descending order, maybe the top of the list, we want to know about somebody's nuclear program. That's the thing we want to know the most. So around the world, we all go, does anybody know anybody in that program? If they don't, we go find someone. And our Jameses, their job, which I could never do, is to find those people, meet those people, and convince those people that they want to work for us.

28:15So I always ask new friends. I say, what would it take for someone to come up to you, I don't know, at a friend's house and say, you know, I used to live in Russia. And I have friends there who are really interested in oil production figures out of this particular field here in America. and I know you work closely with him. Could you, and all of us would say, get out of here. We're not going to do that. James's job was to walk up to a Russian and make the same kind of pitch. But James had to find a niche first. He had to find a flaw. He had to find something that would engage them. So around the world, the reasons that people will betray their government, It boils down to four things, and it spells the word mice, M-I-C-E.

29:05The M is for money, and Americans will do it for money. If you pay us enough, it makes me so mad, but it's true. Pay us enough, we will betray our country. The Russians will do it for ideology. Typically, and this may not still apply, but typically the people we recruited, They had families that were taken apart by Stalin. They had families that were imprisoned by the Russian government. They had all these terrible things that happened to people they knew, and they wanted to pay them back. And for those reasons, they would work for us. M-I-C is compromise. Maybe they had a secret, and they didn't want anyone to know the secret.

29:49And maybe we knew the secret, so we could use that as a... but we didn't actually do that too much because it didn't really work very well, but it was always there as a possibility. And then E is for ego, and that's like the big one. People that are passed over at work for promotions, people that think their boss is stupider than anybody, people that just have these grudges, they walk around with them. Life is not fair. They're not making their way forward. Oh, when we could find those people, we could tuck them in the spine for us.

30:20Mel Robbins:So when you look at mice, money, ideology, compromised or ego, are those all present in terms of how you convince most people to do anything? You know, usually when you see a spy case and you read the history of it, you find those things are in there very, very frequently. People don't just randomly say, I think I'm going to take all the secrets I know and give them to another government. They need a reason, and they filter down into those reasons most of the time. What are your biggest takeaways and life lessons after spending 30-plus years in the CIA? Wow. Well, one of the first ones would be that you don't do anything by yourself.

31:06You don't do anything alone. You form teams. You form loose-knit groups. You are always working with others. It's never a one-off. you're always part of something bigger than yourself if you're going to accomplish anything.

31:26Mel Robbins:I just love talking to you, Jonna. You have one of the most fascinating lives I think of anybody I've ever met. And I know there's so many more stories that you're going to share with us, but first, I need to take a quick break. And while you're listening to our amazing sponsors, I bet somebody's coming to mind because as you listen to Jonna, I bet you're kind of thinking what I'm thinking. I keep thinking of that character M in the James Bond movies. She was basically his handler. And Judi Dench played that role. Holy cow. Like, I cannot get the connection out of my mind. So as you are listening to a word from our sponsors, share this with all the James Bond fans in your life.

32:08Mel Robbins:Don't go anywhere, because when we come back, Jonna is going to put you right at the scene at the moment where she fooled the President of the United States while they were in the Oval Office. You're going to hear that story when we come back. Stay with me.

32:27Mel Robbins:Sometimes the hardest part of starting something new is starting, especially when it comes to exercise. That first step out the front door, oh, that's a big one. So it helps when you're wearing shoes that make it feel easier. That's why I want to tell you about our sponsor, Ultra. Their shoes are designed to make your first step and every step more comfortable. The secret is in the Ultra Fit, which has more room for your toes. And you get comfort, balance, and strength all in one, so you can move more naturally as you run, walk, or train. Whether you're just getting started or already logging serious miles, Ultra Shoes are designed to move with you stride after stride.

33:07Mel Robbins:Shop now at ultrarunning.com and use code MEL10 for 10 % off at checkout. And if you want even more savings and you've got an HSA or FSA account, you can use those pre-tax dollars on Ultra Shoes through TruMed. Just head to trumed.com slash ultra to check your eligibility, and it may save you an average of 30%. TruMed is for qualified customers. HSA, FSA tax savings vary. Experience ultra and stay out there at ultrarunning.com. That's A-L-T-R-A running.com. The other day, I found Chris a pair of linen jeans, don't judge, for 80 % off. You know when you get a deal so good and you're like, yes, I just got it on sale.

33:55Mel Robbins:If you love that feeling, you need to know about our sponsor, Rakuten. Rakuten is a smart and easy way to save money. oh my God, I got a good deal kind of feel when you shop. With Rakuten, you earn cash back and rewards on nearly every purchase, from shopping to travel to beauty, concert tickets, experiences, and dining. Why wouldn't you use this? Rakuten partners with all your favorite brands too, like Kiehl's, Neiman Marcus, eBay, Wine.com, and Macy's. And when it's time to redeem your cash back, you can do it by check, PayPal, or even a gift card from one of your favorite stores. Plus, eligible American Express card members can choose to earn membership rewards points instead of cash back.

34:34Mel Robbins:Terms and conditions apply. Using Rakuten is free. All you need is an email to sign up. Join for free at Rakuten.com. That's R-A-K-U-T-E-N.com or download the Rakuten app to start saving money today. Hi, Mom. Hi, Oakley. I was just sitting down to record an ad for our sponsor, Wayfair, and I was like, wait a minute. But Oakley just moved into his off-campus apartment and you just assembled your new bed from Wayfair. So I want to hear all about it. How amazing was it? The bed is amazing. I mean, I just moved in last night and I was expecting a super painful and hard setup process because that's what I've been used to.

35:16And it only took me like 30 minutes. It was super straightforward. I had all the pieces and all the tools needed. It looks amazing. I'm pretty sure it's going to last me a lifetime.

35:24Mel Robbins:So that's amazing as well. Fantastic. All right. I love you. and I also love Wayfair and I'm glad you love your bed. I love you, Mom, and I love Wayfair as well. There you have it, right there. Join Wayfair Rewards today to get 5 % back on every purchase and start saving on your next home upgrade. Head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com. Wayfair, every style, every home. Wayfair, every style, every home.

35:57Mel Robbins:Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins. And today you and I are here with Jonna Mendez, the former chief of disguise from the CIA. And today she is here with the moving, inspiring and heart pounding reflection from such a remarkable life. So, Jonna, one thing I was curious about, you said earlier that, you know, when I mentioned, okay, is this really like Mission Impossible and Born Identity? And you said, well, my husband Tony does the passports, but I do the wigs. So how do you transform someone into someone else? It's all very specific to a person, a place, a time, what they need, what would actually solve the problem.

36:40A lot of the time, we wanted people to be less seen. And so we would make them older. Nobody looks at old people too much.

36:50Mel Robbins:Do you use wigs? Are those masks real? Because you always see somebody pulling off a mask and they're not. And you're like, whoa, was that actually a mask? I mean, is that how you do it? Where we ended up was they were so real that I could be sitting here wearing it right now. And you just, you wouldn't know. No way. I went to the White House and briefed the president, and he didn't know. Hold on. You tricked the president of the United States? And the Secret Service. What was your disguise? A full face mask with hair attached. It was actually a girl that worked with me. Her name was Becky. But I wore her face very nicely, and I dropped 20 years in a heartbeat.

37:34And I thought I looked really good. Anyway, went in and briefed the president. Now, the president back then was George H.W. Bush, who had been director of CIA at one point. And we had done some disguises for him, mostly for entertainment. He wasn't out on the streets doing work, but mostly, I don't know, for a conference or something. He had a couple of disguises. So I took him some 8x10 glossies of himself in disguise because now I'm in my salesperson mode. I'm softening him up because I want him to love this thing. I'm going to show him next, and it's going to be a really expensive program, and I want his support for that program.

38:18So he's looking at the pictures of himself, and he's laughing. I had never seen George H.W. Bush laugh before. I was impressed. And I said, well, I'm here today to show you the best new thing we've got. You're going to love it. and he's behind the Resolute desk, and he's saying, well, where is it? He's looking, you know, are there bags down on the floor by me? No, there's nothing. I said, well, I'm wearing it, and what I'm going to do is just take it off and show it to you. And he said, no, no. And he got up, and he walked to my chair and walked around my chair. Now, he didn't know it was a full-face mask.

38:58I didn't know what he was looking for, but he knew that I had on a disguise. and he couldn't find it. So he sat down and he said, okay, take it off. And I did that Tom Cruise thing, which this was before Tom Cruise got famous for it. I did that. Bush loved it. Everybody loved it. It's a great new capability. Can you show me the photos? I think you have photos here from this. Well, I don't go far without these photos because this was a moment. Oh, so that's you. That's me on the far right. That's Bush looking at the pictures of himself. Everybody is very calm. That's you in that disguise? Yeah.

39:55Totally animates. The mask animates? Yeah, that was the hard thing. It's not hard to make it look like you, but to get it to move where you can. I mean, I got through the Secret Service with it. Wow. I know.

40:12Mel Robbins:All right, let's see this one. This one, I'm holding it up in the air. It now lives in the basement of the CIA. Every once in a while, they bring it up. The mask. And there's a big exhibit about this mask in the International Spy Museum. So the mask has gotten its own little bit of fame. More importantly, did he fund the program? Oh, yeah. Because with this program, once we can take a face, any face, your face, and put it on someone else, we can make your twin. We can absolutely make your twin. And we made twins in places where we needed them, like Russia, where we had so much surveillance. We couldn't walk out of our embassy without a team just coming out of smoky tunnels and following us down the street.

41:03But if you planned it right, they'd follow you down the street. You'd step into a kiosk to get cigarettes, I don't know, gum. You'd come back out and go on down the street. And they'd fall in behind you, keep going with you. But it wasn't you. It was your twin they were following. You are still in the kiosk. So once that parade is on the next block, you can go do what you needed to do that day. We could also, besides making your twin, we could change your ethnicity and we could change your gender with these masks. We could do anything. That's incredible.

41:43Mel Robbins:It was incredible. Can you show me the other disguise items that you brought with you? Just a few of the things that we would do. This is a store-bought wig. For our own officers, we usually didn't use store-bought wig. We had the ability to hand-make exquisite wigs one hair at a time. They didn't look like wigs at all. So this is kind of a stand-in. A mustache, if you ever wondered what a good fake mustache looks like. I don't know what these cost, but they were good. Yeah, because they have almost a mesh underneath them, so it looked a little bit more... It's all about that mesh. These things are like feathers.

42:26If you had terrible teeth, we would take a mouth impression. We would make your teeth pearly whites. Wow. If you had pearly whites, we could make them all messed up. We could change your teeth. When we changed your teeth, we would change your gum line. When we changed your gum line, we would change your profile. If you look from the side, it's quite different. We could do all of these things. We'd throw some glasses on you. If we needed to change color of your eyes, we'd put some contact lenses in. If I met you, Mel, and had to go back to my people and say, I met a woman named Mel, and this is what she looked like.

43:05She's got long, beautiful blonde hair. She wears striking glasses. She doesn't wear a lot of makeup. She's not wearing a lot of jewelry. She doesn't seem to have on a wedding ring. She wears a watch like this. I would just describe you in such fine detail. Then, for the disguise, we would change every piece of that that we could. Wow. You would end up with short, a little pixie wig, dark wig, lots of makeup, no glasses. We'd just go on and on and on. Pretty soon, you're not there anymore, and this other person is there. We wanted everything that we could change. With men, it was harder.

43:45Mel Robbins:Why was it harder? It's harder because men don't fool around with all that stuff so much. We'd put cologne on a man who would never wear cologne. It would be noticeable. A woman would notice it, and she probably wouldn't like it. We'd put a gold chain on a man who would never wear a gold chain. We'd unbutton his shirt one too many. So all of a sudden, that guy is taking a turn here. He's a different guy. If he had a wedding ring, we'd take it off. Usually, you'd be able to see kind of the impression. Like, oh, he's married, but he took his wing. Look at that. We'd change his watch out. We just, you know, I'm not even talking about wigs and hair and stuff there.

44:25I'm talking about all the little things. And pretty soon, it's another guy. It's just another guy. We would tell our men when we were doing them, we said, you know, someone in your family gave you a shirt in the last 10 years that you just hate. It's in the back of your closet. That's your shirt for your disguise. And we'd write up a little character sketch of this guy. This is your guy. This is you in disguise. Everything about him. Does he smoke? What does he smoke? Does he drink? What is he like? We just make a new character so that when you had to wear your disguise, in your mind, you had the whole thing.

45:02And after we did that, then we'd send you to the CIA cafeteria for lunch where all your friends were. Everybody, your boss, your boss's boss, everybody who knows you is down there having lunch. and we'd send you into the storm. And they'd come back and say, oh, my God, I was sitting next to them. Nobody knew. And then you thought, okay, yeah, he'll use it.

45:26Mel Robbins:That's really cool. What did 30 years in the CIA teach you about body language and projecting confidence? Well, it kind of depends on who you're projecting it to and what the occasion is. If you're talking to the foreigners who were our, that was our whole goal, is to make them comfortable, to make them believe in what we could do to kind of lessen some of their fear, we would be as positive as we could be. We would praise what they were doing. We would encourage them to do even more of it. We would take pictures and show them, look how good you look. Look how good this is. It's like in Argo. We built that whole backstory, and then we said to them, look at that.

46:19Who's going to challenge that? Nobody's going to challenge that. It would depend on what you were trying to do. If you were trying to sneak somebody across a border, that was really hard. And you start role-playing with people who have never role-played before. I'm thinking of one event where we took somebody out over a border. There was a man, a really important man, and his wife and their five-year-old daughter.

46:48Mel Robbins:Oh, boy. And they were going across the border. We hadn't done that before. This was a very controlled border. And we hired a smuggler, a guy who was back and forth all the time. That was his job. We hired him. We modified his car. we modified the back seat so you could put somebody underneath it a husband and a kid and we did that's where they were in the front seat it had like a bench seat old style and the the woman had the girlfriend position which is not by the door but it's in the middle you know and uh the smuggler was back and forth across that border all the time this was really important getting this man out was really important.

47:36And so this was such a funny story. They pulled up to the gate with the arms down, and there's the guy in the uniform, and he's got the clipboard, and he's like, and they know each other. Oh, hey, good to see you. When will you be back? What's going on? Blah, blah, blah. And there was a tape playing. It was Billy Joel. This is the part of the story that I just couldn't believe. was the latest Billy Joel tape that was not available over there. And the guard says, oh, I like that. What is that? The driver says, oh, it's Billy Joel. And the guard says, oh, my girlfriend loves him, loves him. Where'd you get that?

48:16And the driver says, oh, I have a connection. The driver says, I'll tell you what, next time, next time I come through, I'll bring you one. I'll give you one. And the guard says, I'll tell you what, You give me this one. And you keep the one you get next time for yourself. But I want this for my girlfriend. So he takes the tape out, gives it to the guard. And they drive through the border. So this idea, it's every one of them is different. Every time you do one of these things, it's different and it's scary.

48:53Mel Robbins:I got to be honest with you. I don't want to take a break right now, but I have to give our amazing sponsors a chance to share a few words. Do not go anywhere, because when we come back, Jonna is going to dig deep into the topic of how to trust your intuition. Because when you serve for the CIA, it's often a matter of life or death. Jonna and I will be right back, so stay with us.

49:22Mel Robbins:Pandora Jewelry has a brand new collection inspired by sunshine, freedom, and moments that make the summer season unforgettable. From sun-kissed metals to personalized pieces ready to be engraved with your summer mantra, every design moves with you. From beach days to golden nights and every memory in between. Capture your favorite summer feeling with a new piece from Pandora Jewelry. Shop Pandora Jewelry's new summer collection in-store or online at pandora.net and let your summer unfold. This is a paid ad by BetterHelp. You know, when my husband Chris and I found ourselves facing bankruptcy, I had to reinvent myself.

49:59Mel Robbins:And that setback forced me to start taking action one small step at a time. Real growth, it often comes from those hard moments when life has forced you to adapt and change. Now, therapy with BetterHelp, the world's largest online therapy platform can be the perfect space for you to pause, re-evaluate, and get the support that you deserve to navigate life's unexpected changes. And with over 30 ,000 therapists worldwide, BetterHelp is one of the leading online therapy platforms, having served millions of people globally. And you're in good hands too. BetterHelp therapists have at least three years and 1 ,000 hours of hands-on experience and hold all required education, training, and certifications.

50:42Mel Robbins:You can meet with a range of professionals from marriage and family therapists to social workers and counselors. You don't have to navigate life's changes alone. Sign up and get 10 % off at betterhelp.com slash Mel Robbins. That's betterhelp.com slash Mel Robbins. I am so thrilled that everyone is talking about menopause and paramenopause. The hot flashes, the brain fog, the changes to your skin, your mood, your hair, frozen shoulder, all of it. I mean, the fact that we're finally having conversations based on research and science and women are getting the attention they deserve, holy cow. But here's the part that we also need to talk about.

51:22Mel Robbins:Where do you go for care and when? That's where our sponsor, Midi Health, comes in. Midi is the largest virtual clinic for women in midlife, founded by two incredible women whose vision was to change the way women are treated, particularly during perimenopause and menopause. Midi's clinicians are specially trained in menopause and perimenopause care and will work with you to build a customized plan personalized to your specific symptoms. That includes safe, effective medications and supplements, both hormonal and non-hormonal. And visits are covered by insurance. Talk to the experts at Midi, where no question is taboo.

51:58Mel Robbins:Book your first virtual visit today at joinmidi.com. That's joinmidi.com.

52:09Mel Robbins:Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins. And today you and I are spending time with former CIA chief of disguise, Jonna Mendez. And she's here giving you and me a moving, inspiring, and heart-pounding reflection from her remarkable life. So, Jonna, what was the scariest moment in your 30 years in the CIA? It was in Latin America, down where the cartels were working. Still are working. It's still all going on. I was down there doing some work at the embassy. And they said, we'll pick you up in the morning. They put me in a hotel. They said, we'll be here in the morning. We'll be here at like 9.03. I said, okay.

52:54They said, we'll wait for two minutes and we'll leave. and if that doesn't work out, we'll get in touch in the afternoon. So I was out there, 9.03. I wasn't going to be left behind. They said, you have to be very, very careful in this country. It's dangerous here, just randomly dangerous because of drugs. So I did the work in the embassy that I went down to do and I went back to the hotel and I discovered, oh, I'm out of cigarettes. It's back when I used to smoke almost two at a time. I had to go get cigarettes. So I went out down the street around the corner to a kiosk and got some cigarettes.

53:28And then I'm walking back to the hotel. And I see there's a shortcut. This is stupid. So I took the shortcut and I come around kind of a corner. And there's like 20 young, drunk, local guys armed. You could just smell the beer. And I look wrong. I look wrong. The women down there in that part of the world dress like a million bucks and a little red lipstick, and they just look fabulous. And I was not looking fabulous. And I wasn't looking like them. And you could just see that they all turned and they were like. And I figured later, I said, I don't think they thought I was CIA. I bet they thought I was a narcotics person, American narcotics down there checking on them.

54:18I really thought that they might shoot me. That's one of the few times that I just held my breath. And I'd had all this training, and my training said to me, you cannot turn around and go back. You have to walk through these guys. Really? Why walk through them? Because to turn around and go back would reaffirm that something was wrong here. You just had to show confidence and keep going. So I did. And they kind of separated, and I walked through them. and then I had to keep going to get out of that alley and I couldn't turn around and look at them and I just, I thought maybe someone's going to shoot me and they didn't.

55:01So I went in the lobby of the hotel and opened that package and got a cigarette. I couldn't even smoke it. I was just like this.

55:07Mel Robbins:I'm sitting here thinking, like I had not built for this. Like I'm holding my breath when you're telling the story about the Billy Joel tape. Like I'm just sitting here listening and not even breathing. I recognize that I wasn't breathing as you were in the alley telling me the story. How did you learn to do that, and how can I and the person listening learn to tap into some bravery when life is scary or challenging? You know, I think it's preparation. I think it's a confidence that comes out of thinking it through, knowing what you should do, knowing how to do what you should do. And then you kind of, in these kinds of moments, you kind of have to forget you and you have to go through these motions.

56:07It's not bravery. This is born out of experience and out of training. We train for this stuff all the time. If you read my book, you'll say, my God, were you ever not in training? Because they trained us all the time. They put me through a hostile interrogation course at the CIA's farm. It was one of the worst things that ever happened to me in my life. And in the middle of it, I know it's just a training exercise. guys, I mean, I know that I'm not going to get hurt. I know that nobody's going to let anything happen to me. I'm scared to death. I'm claustrophobic. So they put me in boxes. They put me in a box that I thought of as a mattress box because you could only go in sideways and you couldn't turn your shoulders.

56:54You can barely turn your head. And standing in there for some long time. And I thought, I don't think, I mean, I know this is just a training course, but I'm now supposed to be learning something here. I don't think I can do this any longer. And I remembered, I learned something. I remembered that we had talked to some POWs from Vietnam and the POWs had said, we got through years of this stuff and you get through it in your mind. You have to find your happy place. You have to build a car, rewire your engine, whatever. You need a project.

57:32Mel Robbins:Where did you go in your mind? That's the funniest thing. There's a place back in Kansas called the Flint Hills. It's a tall grass area. It's just beautiful. And I went there, and it was like I had on infrared goggles. So everything was green, and it was just gorgeous, and it was kind of moving. And I was just so happy. And I did that. I didn't think that would ever work for me, but that's how I got through it. Do you have any advice for how the person listening could find a place like that for themselves, like where their happy place to go to in their mind if their current reality is really scary or challenging?

58:22I think anybody could do that. I don't think you have to be scared to death or in a really bad place. I think sometimes just the day-to-day, you need an escape hatch, a place that gives you that kind of warm, rosy glow. We all have those places. I know at one point in that box I thought okay we'll do we'll do we'll do a sandy beach and there'll be some waves and I'll be walking barefoot and the sand would be really warm so I'm it didn't happen couldn't go there couldn't go there didn't work

59:07Mel Robbins:but I tried and then how long were you in the box? I don't know you you I was in that course for three days and three nights. And they fed us a half a cup of rice and a cup of water each day. We were in prison and learned, you know, want to know what it's like to be really miserable? Well, here, we're going to show you. What are verbal cues that someone is lying? I think in general, people fall apart a little bit when they're lying. They get nervous because they know they're lying. They want you to believe it, so they're trying a little too hard. I think direct eye contact is one of the first things that kind of falls apart.

1:00:05I think watching their facial expression. The people who are bouncing around in their story, who are nervous, who are uneasy, who are trying to convince you of this thing and who sometimes won't let it go. That's what I would look for.

1:00:26Mel Robbins:I would imagine after 30 years in the CIA, you have a pretty keen intuition. intuition how do you decipher those moments when it's your intuition warning you versus just anxiety and fear your intuition i for me it it kind of has a beginning and it sort of has an ending when i have an intuition about something i i stick with it i follow it i track it like it's a newspaper story see if i was right especially if it's about people well what's interesting is if your intuition is kind of saying do this or believe this the fear and the questioning comes right after it but what if this happened like that that's the fear and the anxiety that stops you from trusting it but the direction that your instincts are telling you is pretty clear.

1:01:27Yeah. I think over time, over time you go through enough scenarios like that that you develop a trust in your intuition.

1:01:39Mel Robbins:Here's the way that I think about it. So if I get, if I start having a feeling, if it's my deep intuition, it's a pretty clear statement. if it's fear or anxiety there's a lot of questioning or what if or just noise this way scattered yeah it's like a statement it pulls you intuition does and for me anyway if the alarm that's going off is what if this and what if that and what if the other thing i know that the questioning is more fear and anxiety and if it is a very clear direction move away speak up yeah that's intuition yeah you're right you've given us a story that illustrates intuition versus fear when you were in that alley your fear told you to turn around and get out of there.

1:02:37Yeah.

1:02:38Mel Robbins:And your intuition said, walk. Yeah. I think it was right. What did being in the CIA, especially as the chief of disguise, teach you about reinvention and even just changing who you are personally. I was just huge. When I was in school, when I was in college, I was introverted and quite the reader. And I really thought that my career and my life was going to be spent as a librarian or an English teacher. And that sounded good to me. I thought that'll be an interesting place to park myself. That was the beginning. And then I could not have stepped further away from it unless I joined the circus and become an acrobat.

1:03:37You develop confidence in yourself. You develop confidence in your own ideas. You follow them. And there's no map. There's nothing saying you should end up here. You should end up there. You end up, I think, where you're supposed to end up.

1:03:53Mel Robbins:Jonna, given the fact that you were a leader at the CIA for almost 30 years, you have so many colleagues that were killed in the line of service. You have built friendship and allies with people that are citizens of other countries around the world. What are your thoughts on the state of things right now? I'm not sure that this planet is in a good place. Not politics, just this planet. And I worry about the next generation and what it is they're going to be facing. In terms of the health of the planet and global warming and just the fact that we're not taking care of the planet? I think we've wrecked it.

1:04:35And I don't know how you fix a planet.

1:04:38Mel Robbins:I mean, I don't know. Well, here's what I know. I know that if decades ago you could figure out how to use a pen to take a photo and then shrink it down to a pinprick and then create a lens the size of a grain of rice to be able to magnify that back up 800 times. If we were to put our attention on it, I would bet in human ingenuity and the imagination to figure it out. The ingenuity is there and the imagination is there, but the will, the will is not there. As a matter of fact, the will is pushing things the other direction. It's cutting off what I used to think of as lifelines. We're not funding those lifelines anymore.

1:05:32Mel Robbins:I think a lot of people feel overwhelmed and scared and sad. What is one thing you would recommend that somebody do? Well, I'm thinking of them and of me. Take a breath is the first thing. It's probably in order. Secondly is taking small steps to fix what you can. You can't fix it all. But if enough people take small steps, you can fix big pieces of it. What do you think the biggest threat that people aren't paying enough attention to is right now? There are so many. There are so many. It's the political tension. It's not just here. It's around the world. The nature of these states and what they're doing and how they're doing it.

1:06:25And an individual can't keep track of it. We used to rely on our government to keep track of it for us. We've lost that. There is nobody calling balls and strikes right now. Nobody cares about doing that. So I guess we have to call our own. So you have to pick the piece, probably pick your fight. What is it do you want to support?

1:06:47Mel Robbins:One of the things that's interesting about listening to your story is I keep thinking about the knock on the Canadian ambassador's door and the relationships that it seems like we used to have and the allies that we prioritized. And both on a global scale and an individual scale, one of the things that I worry about, because I remember a time, I'm only 57, when there wasn't this divisiveness, there wasn't this othering, there was a lot more working together and collaborating, even if we didn't see eye to eye. And I worry a lot that we have lost our ability to do that. Yeah. Now, I don't know how you get that back, but it'd be worth working on it.

1:07:34I innately believe in the endless potential

1:07:41Mel Robbins:for change and in people's capacity to grow and learn from their mistakes and to become better versions of themselves. And whether you're thinking about it on an individual scale or you're thinking about it on a global scale, I still think as dark as things can feel, there is so much more light out there. And there are more people that believe what you believe and that want what you want than not. I believe that the vast majority of people are good and they want the best for themselves and their families and their neighbors, and that we all miss being able to work together to solve our problems because we can.

1:08:25That's a wonderful way of summing it up.

1:08:27Mel Robbins:So if there's one skill, if you think back through your remarkable career at the CIA, that myself and the person who's listening really needs in order to navigate the world today, what is it? I think the idea of courage is misunderstood. I think a lot of people think that courage is something that you walk around with, that it's inherent in us, and I think it is not. I think courage comes from confidence. Confidence comes from knowledge, from knowing what you're doing, understanding how you can impact a thing. I think that's the important. You don't just become courageous. is you don't come around a corner and there's a bear.

1:09:17It's not like that at all. You don't come around that corner at all. There could always be a bear waiting for you there, but courage is a lot more complicated than a lot of people think. But it's something that everyone can develop. Everyone can have. If I can have courage, anyone can have courage.

1:09:39Mel Robbins:How could the person who doesn't feel like they have a lot of courage, How could you start practicing that in your everyday life? You could start confronting things that are on your list, things that scare you. It might even be people. You might start having a conversation with someone that you weren't sure. You could have that conversation with them. You have to approach it. You have to exercise it. You have to learn courage. There is a story near the end of the book. That was really hard to read. I'm describing this operational base out in Afghanistan. At the end of my book, I was talking about women.

1:10:24I was kind of summing up about women in the workplace and what wonderful strides we, they, have been making. And then I called out this operational base that the chief of the base was a CIA woman. The deputy was a woman. There were like six people there. And a car pulled in, and they were bringing in an Afghan who, oh, they were so excited that they could bring him in because he was going to tell them everything. And he got out of the car, and he opened his vest, and he was a human bomb. and he pulled the cord and he blew everybody up. The women, the men, the chief of the base had three kids. The other woman had two.

1:11:13Blew them up. And I said, is this the definition? That I've always talked about women working the same as men, living the same as men, having careers the same as men. Is this the proof that now we're dying the same as men? It's really sad. It's really sad. Yeah. But it speaks volumes. There they were, two gals. They are now stars carved in the marble. CIA. John Amandes, what are your parting words? I loved coming here and talking to you. I liked very much having this conversation. You make me think through things that some of them I know viscerally, but I don't talk about. Maybe some things that I didn't really even know.

1:12:05So I've been learning while I've been talking to you. It's always a wonderful experience.

1:12:11Mel Robbins:Well, I've been learning as I've been talking to you. There you go. We're so smart. We're smarter now. I just want to say, first of all, thank you for your decades of service. Thank you. Thank you for that. And thank you for coming and sharing stories and wisdom from your remarkable life. And I know, and I'm sure as you're listening, you know, that Jonna Mendez is far from Don. That whether you like it or not, there is another chapter to be written. Well, I kind of hope you're right. I'm ready for one. one final crescendo my son is watching and his girlfriend they're like mom aren't you done with this yet?

1:13:03Mel Robbins:Well you did work for the CIA so I don't expect you to tell me everything. Well this is this is true some things have to remain undercover. Jonna you are a national treasure. Oh man thank you thank you thank you. Thank you for your service. And thank you for being here. And thank you. Thank you for spending this time with us. Wasn't she amazing? I loved every minute of it. And I loved being here together with you. And in case no one else tells you this today, as your friend, I want to tell you that I love you and I believe in you. And I believe in your ability to create a better life. and I also believe in our ability to do what we can where we are to start to create a better world together.

1:13:55Mel Robbins:Alrighty, I'll see you in the very next episode. I'll welcome you in the moment you hit play.

1:14:03Mel Robbins:Oh my God, another coffee. This is great. This is how I'm gonna get through today. Thank you. You guys sound dangerous. You're about to make us dangerous. In the best way. It's gonna be hard to go home. Well, we don't want you to go home. You can stay with us. There's nobody there making sure that everything is just hunky-dory. Well, Cameron can keep checking in on you. And you were being her. I'm wearing Becky's face and her hairdo. Oh, my God. One of my favorite people in the world is Donna. He wasn't listening at all. He looked up and saw me sitting there holding my head in the air, and he let out this little noise, shriek.

1:14:43Real soft. scared him. It surprised him. It just really did surprise him. The only person that didn't really like it was they had a CIA, his dog. Dogs know. Dogs don't like hats either.

1:14:58Mel Robbins:They don't like hats. Yeah. You're right. Why do dogs not like hats? And the mustache. Oh, and a mustache drawn on the floor. Let me grab the mustache. That I so carefully put. Can we send stuff to your son? I mean, that would be... I'm just kidding. I've actually hired him. He does a lot for me. I've hired him. I'm right here. Now, if we're no longer in the air, I'll tell you one more thing. Awesome. All right. And we don't even care about the lipstick. Oh, no, you look fantastic. It was still on there. I could see it.

1:15:39Mel Robbins:Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. this is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode. Sirius XM Podcasts.

1:16:22Mel Robbins:Can we talk about that moment in the afternoon? You know the one where your energy just drops. You're slower, foggy, groggier. You're going constantly. That's your signal to take a pause, not power through. That's when you need a Pure Leaf iced tea. Pure Leaf is real brewed iced tea that comes in a variety of flavors made with naturally occurring caffeine. Because sometimes the most productive thing you can do in a busy day is pause, take a breath, and reset your energy. Bring yourself back with Pure Leaf, a real brewed, naturally caffeinated iced tea designed to help you take on what's next. Shop now or go to pureleaf.com slash find-us to find Pure Leaf in a store near you.

1:17:13Mel Robbins:That's pureleaf.com slash find-us. Whether you're a festival girly or catching local live music, Dove thinks the only thing you should worry about is getting a good view of the stage. With the new Dove alcohol-free whole body deodorant, you won't have to worry about your deodorant irritating your skin. It's packed with nourishing serum and free from irritating alcohol. Plus, you'll still enjoy 72-hour odor protection and irresistible fragrances for your pits, chest, thighs, and more. Get the new alcohol-free Dove Whole Body Dio on Amazon or at Walmart today.