If You Only Listen to One Podcast Today, Make It This One

26:20But what was interesting is that actually that's when my life started to fall into place. Because for me, I was like, okay, how do I keep learning? How do I keep close to the dream? And in those days, you could go around and find work placements. And so I thought to myself, I'll just work for free. I'll get as close as I can to the career that I think I want. And I went from, you know, PR agency to design a showroom, like from one terrible bottom of the barrel job to another. and, you know, Mel, I would do everything I could to get these work placements. Like I was sending, you know, because again, in those days there wasn't email, so it was just sending letters out and nobody was responding to my letters.

27:02And so I started hand delivering letters because I was like, maybe they're just not getting them. It was kind of ridiculous. And every now and again, there would be a break. Kind of brilliant, actually. I mean, you know, for me, it was just tenacity. And I couldn't even imagine that it was because of me. You know, I never took it personally. I didn't think I'm not good enough. I didn't think, you know, I'm not worthy. I thought they didn't get the letter because I'm so good and I have so much to offer and I'm going to work so hard. They just must not know yet. And so I just kept going and going and going and going until somebody said, yes, okay, like come in, you can work here for free for a couple of weeks.

27:43And for somebody who's listening, who's like, I need that. I need that tenacity because I send an email and then I sit back and then I think something's wrong with me. It's never about you. Mel, it's never, ever about you. And this is the big thing that I want specifically women to understand. We have become, as a group, obsessed with this idea of perfection, that it always has to be perfect, that it always has to be as it is in the movies. And that is just not, it's not my experience. My whole journey has not been linear. It has been, you know, one great thing happened and then like nothing, literally nothing.

28:24In fact, sometimes it just went down, but you cannot take it personally because it's never about you. You know, you can fail and it's just the thing, that thing didn't work out. It is not that you don't work. It is not that you have something wrong with you. So for me, I would just like dust myself off. I'd be like, that wasn't my moment. That wasn't for me. It's not my time. And just keep going. Well, I would also imagine that if you're also feeling the pressure of buying food and paying rent, you also don't have a choice. Like there's a certain level of stress that you feel if you cannot make the ends meet or you barely do because you can't stop, right?

29:07You have no choice. You have no choice. You have no choice. And so one thing I wanted to ask you, because what you said about excellence was mind-blowing and 1 ,000 % accurate. How do you pursue excellence versus the trap of being perfect? Like, what's the difference between excellence and that perfectionism trap that women get stuck in? That is such a beautiful question. I think that you have to learn, and this is going to sound, and I don't want it to sound self-limiting. We all have a different measuring stick, right? What is perfect to you is not perfect to me. And I think that we have to be realistic with ourselves.

29:52And so what I've done in my life is really think about myself. I'm not thinking, I'm not looking in the media. I'm not on social. I'm not in a magazine trying to live up to that version. I'm like, what is my version of excellence based on where I come from and who I am? What's good enough for me? Because I'm not comparing myself to anyone else. You know, you and I both love that same quote, right? It's like, it's you against you. That's it. And that's where you have to be very, very honest and very self-reflective because if you are going to be in the comparison game, you will never be satisfied.

30:32You will never be happy. Okay. I think I just got it. I want to extract what you just said and give it back to you and see if I heard you correctly because I think I just got the difference. You ready? So perfectionism is when you are focused on the outside. Perfectionism is when you are measuring what other people are going to think about what you just did. Excellence is on the inside because excellence is about the effort in and whether or not the effort that you put in is good enough for you. That's really a great distinction. I've never thought about it that way because I've always thought about like perfectionism because so many women in particular or struggle with it as something that you're doing internally.

31:23No, it's coming at you. Yes. From every angle all the time. And you have to be very, very careful as a woman that that doesn't start to define you, that that doesn't seep into you, right? Because the minute that goes inside you, you're in trouble. And, you know, I have this great friend, Diane von Furstenberg. She's the most insane and incredible woman ever. but she talks about this idea of the most important relationship you'll ever have is the relationship you have with yourself and so you got to be real careful that your biggest enemy isn't living between your two ears right it's like this conversation that goes on all day that's relentless has to be kind it has to be compassionate it has to be empathetic these are all things that we give away to other people if you're a good person all the time but it starts with you You have to give that stuff to yourself first and foremost.

32:20And when you start to do that, and when you start a daily practice that says, I am going to behave like this to myself. When I speak to myself, this is how I'm going to be. That rewires you. Well, even talking to yourself that way is in itself its own form of excellence. Yes. Right? Because you operate that way in the world, that level of excellence with other people. And so it's a beautiful way to think about talking to yourself in a kind and cheering and empathetic way is a form of excellence with yourself. I love that. What would you say to somebody that is kind of at the beginning of the journey in their career right now, trying to figure it out?

33:00You know, Mel, honestly, what I would say is that everything you want is on the other side of what you're working towards. You just got to be working. It's all there. Everything you want is there. It's just got to find you working. And that's it. You can't think your way into what you want. You can't wish it. You can't hope for it. You got to do. And that's where this perfectionist trap is poisonous for us. Because if you think that you have to do it perfectly, or it has to come in some spectacular way, or this thing that you want to do has to be really big, it doesn't. It's like, just start, just do something and know that if you are doing, if you have forward momentum, if you are moving in the correct direction of travel, you will get there, but you have to be moving.

33:54And what about if you don't know if you're in the right direction? Then you just go. Because I never knew. I never knew. And the fact is, sometimes I wasn't going in the right direction, but at least I was going somewhere. Because what happens is you pick up all this information along the way, if you're smart. And when you make mistakes, again, it comes back to that idea of like, how am I speaking to myself? Because if you treat yourself like a good friend, imagine that your friend messes up, right? She messes up. You don't go, you absolute silly cow. You go, darling, let's talk about this. What happened?

34:30I love you anyway. Let's go through it. Where were the mistakes? How are we going to do things differently next time? That's what you have is inevitable. And, you know, I've kind of trained myself around this rule of thirds that I have in my head. And that has really, really, really helped me to understand. What is the rule of thirds? So the rule of thirds is something that I remember hearing this when I was a bit younger, and it's like I almost live by it. So if you are doing something difficult, if you're chasing a dream, if you are on the road to whatever it is, you are going to be happy about a third of the time.

35:06And the other third of the time, you are going to be like, oh, you know, life is kind of all right. And the final third of the time, you're going to feel terrible now. It sounds like a marriage. Basically, it can be applied to marriage too. But you know, the point is that we shouldn't feel good all the time, right? It's just part of how we're conditioned right now to imagine that life is this Instagram reel of wonderfulness. And that ain't the truth. So if you can learn to accept, do you know what? On those really bad days, when you feel really crappy, you're like, that's okay. In fact, I'm exactly where I need to be because I'm going to have those days and I'm going to have some of the middling days and then I'm going to have these great days.

35:53And so if you go off track, that's all right because you have to know that you can come back. And when you're on fire, you also better be real humble because you're going to know that those stinky times are coming too. So it's a really lovely way to keep yourself in balance. And I think about it probably daily, a third and a third and a third. The rule of thirds. I love it. Now I'm going to think about it daily. And I know that the person that is listening is going to think about it daily and share that rule of third with the people that they care about, because it is true that when you're going through the crappy part, you think this is going to be that way forever.

36:27Yes. And And we all hear, oh, it's temporary. But I love a rule. I love a rule. I love a rule. I love a rule. And so I love being able to say to myself, even though it's been a crappy decade, this is just a third of a third. Like, it's just one third of what I'm going to experience. I love that you say a decade because people tend to overestimate what they can do in a year and underestimate what can actually happen in a decade. I have been in America for eight years this July 4th and I'm a different Emma, right? That eight years didn't just happen in eight years, it happened the 30 years before, the 40 years almost before, right?

37:15So we have to think about like what it actually takes and time. And I feel like as a young person, you can be in such a rush. It's like, don't be in a rush. Life is long. Life happens in chapters. And so as a young person, all you need to say to yourself is, I am willing to work and I'm willing to accept the direction of travel. And it will be going forward some of the time. And it will be standing on a spot some of the time. And it will be going backwards some of the other time. And all of it is fine. Emma, oh my God. I don't want to take a break. I could listen to you nonstop. We haven't even gotten into the backstory on these billion-dollar companies you're the co-founder of.

37:57So let's take a pause. Let's give our sponsors a chance to share a few words. And I want you to share this with everybody that you know, particularly people in their 20s and their 30s. Anybody in your life that has always had a big dream but keeps standing in their own way. Let Emma inspire them. This is one of these conversations I know I'm going to be listening to on repeat. so it is a gift to anyone that you share it with. And don't you dare go anywhere. Emma and I will be waiting for you after the short break. So stay with me.

38:38Welcome back. It's your friend Mel. And today you and I are getting inspiration, motivation, and the step-by-step blueprint to creating a life that you are proud of from none other than Emma Greed. So Emma, could you speak to the pressure that people feel when they're young to just jam it all in? Like one of the things that I see from especially people in their 20s and early 30s is that I got to do it all. I got to travel. I got to do this. I got to find the person. I got to figure out my dream career. And I love that you're saying when you are young, just slow down. Well, let me tell you what I really believe.

39:18works. Tell me. We are in too much of a rush. Having said that, your 20s is the time to try some stuff. And that is what I really believe in. I could look at all of my friends now, got a couple of them in front of me, and I could draw a line down the middle of those that are successful now in their 40s and what they did in their 20s. Did they, did they like go for it? Did they take a bunch of risks? Did they work really hard? Did they try a bunch of stuff? And those that perhaps, you know, kept the partying going maybe a little too long. When you don't have responsibility, right? Most of us have children a little bit later now.

40:00You don't take on responsibilities in terms of financial responsibilities, like a mortgage, until a little bit later now. Your 20s are the time to try. And I remember a lot of people saying to me in my 20s, like, you work too hard. You need to have more fun. The truth is, if I didn't do the 20s I did, I wouldn't be where I am now. Yes. And so you've got to try a few things. And again, don't think that they're all going to work out. But there is a time in your life where it makes sense to put a few bets out there, to throw a few things at the wall, to like go outside of your comfort zone. Like that is the moment.

40:35That's the decade. Because you're going to spend your thirties, like figuring it out, like what do I actually want to do and putting in the hard work? And then hopefully by the time you get to your forties, you've become proficient at something and you can start to choose your choice. But in my experience, not before that. Well, what's interesting is I'm sitting here looking at you and you're 42 and I'm thinking, God, at 42, I was$800 ,000 in debt. I had liens on the house. My husband's restaurant business was going over. I was unemployed, three kids under 10, about to lose. That's when my life fell apart.

41:09And look at you now. No shit. So it took, take some time. Yeah, take some time. And one of the other things I want to point out though is you're 42. And when you drop out of college, that's 25 years ago. And I want to remind you as you're listening and watching that you also said in the very beginning, I've only really enjoyed what I'm doing for the last five years. Facts. And it's really important because we don't talk about it enough that it isn't going to be fun. It isn't going to be a party the whole time. You are not going to feel like you are pursuing your passion as you are on the journey and figuring it out.

41:54And one of the things that also is interesting about your career though, is it took you 10 years between that moment where you dropped out and you're hustling and you're trying to find anybody that will let you just be somewhat near fashion for free, doing anything so you can be close to the thing that you want. Would you speak to that moment where you feel like, oh my God, I've been at this for a while and I'm just not getting traction and the job that I have is paying the bills, grateful to be able to pay my bills. Like I'm not going to like diss the job that's paying the bills, but it's not aligned with where I thought I would be.

42:38How do you stay motivated? How do you keep the dream alive when the first things that you're doing don't really feel like they're going anywhere? Yeah. And let's be honest, we all have those times. I had a lot lot of jobs like that. I really, really did. And what I've always tried to do is find, maybe make up a little bit in my head, but I've tried to find the glimmers, right? Like where is something in here useful? So you're working, you know, like an office job with some kind of clerical role. You are learning to be organized. You are learning what it takes to be the back office support. You are looking at everything that's happening around you.

43:25And let me tell you, Mel, and I know this for sure, the fact that I have done all the bad jobs, the fact that I have been there, is what makes me a great leader. Because today, not only can I appreciate every single person around me, I've done those jobs. I know not just what it takes, but I know how it feels. and my staff know that I know how it feels. And there is a different appreciation level for somebody who comes into leadership having done all of the things. And so not only do I look for those glimmers and tell somebody that this job that you're doing that feels pretty mundane isn't because there is value in all work.

44:08You just have to find that and you take small pieces. And I think about my experience now as it's a collective of all the things that I've learned. I learned customer service when I was making the sandwiches. And when I was delivering the papers, I learned the power of the mornings. And when I worked in the closet at the fashion company, I learned how to do a really horrible job with a smile on my face, just put it on. And it's like all of those little pieces will take you somewhere. And you have to keep in your head and tell yourself, life is long. And whatever I'm doing, it all adds up to something.

44:44You know, just like all your relationship experiences. And it can feel hard when you're in them, but you can look back and say, there was a reason that thing happened. But you've got to understand, hindsight isn't just a fine thing. It's the thing. It's what makes us who we are eventually. So you've just got to keep that in the front of your mind. This is leading somewhere. Everything is leading somewhere. Everything, all parts of it. Absolutely. You know, you started pushing on doors early. I mean, you literally would just walk right into the room and many rooms where you probably felt like you didn't belong.

45:19What gave you the confidence to stay when you would get into a room where you're like, I'm not sure I belong here or I'm not sure this is going to work? The way I was raised was really interesting because confidence has never really been my problem. I was raised by, you know, my wonderful mum. And she taught me, you know, she was like, Emma, you're not better than anybody else, but nor is anyone better than you. And that stayed with me. And so when I walk into a room now, then, even though with my terrible education, leaving school before I should, even though I'm highly dyslexic, I know my gifts, I know my strengths.

46:01And I know that whatever it is that any of us has to bring is valuable. There is value in all of us. And so again, you have to really like anchor into that piece of you. Like you have to, you have to believe that you have something special, unique. And even if it's not special and unique, it's what you have to bring. So make the most of it. Figure it out, right? Figure it out. Package it up and go in with some confidence that at least there's just not another you, right? There's not another you in that room. So whatever you are bringing into that space is something that's not there because there isn't another you.

46:39And you have to think deeply and carefully about what those things are and what you add to an organization. And I've done all of that. But in the beginning, you've just got to believe that you have something unique to bring. Well, you also touched on this earlier about excellence and how when you operate with a level of excellence, even if it's managing the energy at the crappy job you can't stand, people are drawn to it. Yes. Drawn to it. They really are. Do you have any advice for how you can get yourself into a room? You know what I mean? Like there's a lot of people that are aspiring to launch a business or raise some money or just put their art out there or be noticed or get the interview.

47:23Is there something, some move that you can make or some way that you have found or maybe an example of somebody that got your attention about how you get into a room? Because you were literally like, I just want to be adjacent to whatever. I'm going to knock on that door. Yeah, I mean, the first thing, Mel, is you've got to get out of your own head. Because I speak to a lot of people like, I've been trying this thing and I've been like thinking about this for a long time. It's like, what did you do? What did you do? Did you call the store? You want to sell your thing in the store. Do you call them?

47:53Or are you just hoping for somebody to notice you? Did you like, you want to be an artist? Like, are you making art? Are you putting your work out there? Again, like nobody is like looking for you, no one. So you again have to take responsibility and start, like get out of the starting blocks and go and do something. And again, it comes down to this idea of fearing what is on the other side, fear of rejection, fear of being told no, fear that it won't work. So you've got to get past that point and know that that's all there and that may well happen, but that's okay too. And I honestly think that the big block that people have is getting started, feeling so vulnerable that they can't even start.

48:41You can't write a business plan and then file that business plan and then go, I'm going to start this business because I've got a plan. It's like, what's in the plan? You've got to go. You've got to get the thing made. You have to write the email. You have to ask the question and you cannot network your way into starting. That doesn't work. People right now always say to me, you know, I wish I was invited to this networking event. It's like, that's not the thing. And network is a tool, a way of getting things done. The things that make the difference between starting and not starting is never really what you think.

49:20It's never the people that you think. When I look at my business and my life and think, who are the people that have made the biggest differences? I go back, it's like, I didn't know anyone that was going to give me money to start a business. I went to my clients, to people that I worked with and explained like, I am going to start this thing and I'm going to need some capital to do it. When I needed advice and a mentor, I didn't know anyone who like had a business in East London, like not a legit or legal one anyway, you know, it's like, okay guys, like that's not the type of business advice I need.

49:54So again, I went to clients and at the end of pitching the marketing campaign, I was there, I would just ask a couple of questions. Like you've got to take your chance, shoot your shot. Don't walk around looking for a mentor, walk around asking questions. That's what you have to do. And you have to realize that your network will never be what you think it is. It will be the factory, the vendors, your bank relationship, your lawyer, like that is your network. So work with whatever you've got. Stop looking at what you don't have and look at what you do have and make that the network. But you have to start.

50:29You've got to start somewhere. Yeah, I keep thinking about the fact that it is so easy to talk. It's so easy to you know, network with people. But the real differentiator is what can you show me that you've done? If somebody, if you can't take out your phone and show someone a photograph of the thing that you did, you haven't done anything. Yes. You said ask questions. Are there questions that are better than others? There are questions that are better than others. And I also think that what happens with a lot of founders is that they get obsessed with their idea. They get obsessed with their individual thing.

51:12And often I will be in a situation, somebody is pitching an idea or trying to get advice from me. And I will ask about their space, the competition, their market, and they don't know anything. So when you start something, it's not just about the thing that you're doing. You have to be obsessed with everything else that is adjacent with your entire category. Obsess the price, obsess the distribution, obsess every single part and every dynamic of that thing because that's what counts. You're bringing your thing into that space. And so that becomes the barrier between what you're starting with and where that thing is going to go.

51:58You've got to be really open to what's happening around you because that is the truth of business. You are in a fight from day one. You open your doors. You start your website. It's like it's a fight. It's a fight for attention. It's a fight for that customer. And you need to be willing and have a real understanding of what problem you're solving for and what it is that you bring uniquely. And that means an understanding of everything else that is around you. What was the first thing that you started? So the first thing to say is I always had a job. From 12, I've had a job. I delivered the papers.

52:32I did the babysitting. It's like I worked in the deli. I worked in a million different clothes shops. It's like I've been working forever and ever and ever. And so it's like I drop out of college and I landed in this strange year of just work placement. So I just went from place to place to place, essentially figuring out what I didn't want to do, but getting closer to the idea of like, what is the fashion business? How does it work? I landed in a fashion show production company. sounds glamorous, absolutely was not. You're building the catwalk shows. So, you know, a designer has this like grand idea of what it is that they want to do and you have to build it.

53:07The show goes up, but you spend three months planning it. The show goes up and down in 10 minutes. You don't see it because you're backstage. Everybody goes off to a party that you're not invited to and you have to de-rig and pack the thing down. That was my life for five years. But in that, I met everybody. I understood what the business of fashion was, why we were putting on the shows and I knew everybody. And so I essentially took the, what I had created there, which was just my reputation as being someone who understood fashion and loved fashion. And I started doing deals for fashion designers with brands.

53:45So everybody had this grand idea of what show they wanted to put on, but no budget because they weren't really making sales. And so I would do brand partnerships between designers and brands. And I created an agency eventually after like, you know, one deal here, one deal there, a little commission there, a little commission there. I became like the girl that did this in London. And I started an agency when I was 24. That agency I was in for 10 years. I grew it. I had an office in London, an office in New York, an office in LA, closed the office in LA, grew, grew, grew. And I essentially built this agency group that started acquiring rights, licensing rights and brand rights.

54:23We did product placement in movies. We put celebrities into campaigns. So if I don't understand what that means. Yes. What does that mean that you do brand things? So my agency was an entertainment marketing agency. Okay. So we represented a brand's interests in the world of entertainment. So my client could be, let's call it Mercedes-Benz. Okay. And Mercedes-Benz want to put that car into a movie. Or they would like to have Claudia Schiffer in their campaign. Okay. Or they would like to do a partnership with a fashion designer and have the interiors of the car looking all gorgeous. I was the girl representing the brands, making those marketing deals happen.

55:02I want to make sure that as you're listening or watching right now, you actually got a couple really key takeaways and pieces of advice that are buried in the story so far. So you have this vision. You know what you want to do. You want to be in fashion. And so you do everything you can to get yourself in as close a proximity as you can to the thing that you're interested in. So you're volunteering first. You ultimately end up with this crappy job. Crappy job. Crappy job. But you are in the industry. I'm in the mix. You're in the mix. So number one, I don't care if you don't know what you want to do, get a damn job.

55:42And you said for an entire year, you did everything you could in these jobs you didn't like. For free. But you also were working and making money in delis and everything else. Seven days a week. I worked in the clove shop and then I would work doing my work experience. I was exhausted. But here's something you said that I want to make sure that as you're listening, you do not miss. Every single crappy job that you hated actually told you what you didn't want to do. So everything you're doing right now that you don't like is so important because it's getting you closer to understanding what you do like.

56:19Exactly. And that's really important. And I also love the fact that you kept yourself super busy. The more crappy jobs you have, the faster you're going to figure out what you're actually good at and what you like. Oh, and Mel, this is a key point because people ask me all the time, like, how do I figure out what I'm good at? because I'm like, what you need to do is lean in to where you're good. I don't know what I'm good at. It's very, very simple. If it gives you energy, you are good at it. If it takes your energy away and you feel exhausted and depleted, that's what you're bad at. Make it simple.

56:52So for me, in negotiations, in like contract negotiations, I am on fire. Even the bad ones, I am on fire. That's what I'm good at. You give me an Excel sheet with a bunch of numbers. It's like, kill me now. Kill me now. That's what I'm not so good at. So you really start to understand. And it's in that understanding of yourself that you get closer and closer to where you need to be and figuring out what you're good at. You don't try to chase a passion. You don't try to find like, what am I supposed to be doing? Like, what is my purpose? No, no, no. Lean in to what you are good at. I am an excellent negotiator.

57:29And that's where I have ended up where I am today. That's it. The second thing that I want to extract from that story is that in that job of assembling catwalks and like being treated like garbage and not being part of the fun stuff, your network appeared and it wasn't who you thought it was going to be. Not in the slightest. Not in the slightest. And so it's in the doing of all the stuff and keeping yourself busy because if you don't keep yourself busy, you're going to get stuck in your head. That's how you get started. Just get a bunch of jobs and you're going to start to figure it out. But the network appears and then all of a sudden you realize, wait a minute, like they're not making money.

58:10So maybe I could get like a little brand involved like Parker Mercedes out front and they would pay to do that. And I have a buddy who works at the dealership down there. So it doesn't start with the corporate brand. It starts with the local thing because that's your network. And it didn't start with the fashion brands. In my head, I was like, I'm going to work in fashion. Remember? I didn't have any fashion clients for the first two years. I had a bunch of corporate brands because my contacts, when you work in production, it wasn't the PRs and the models and the designers. My contacts were the lighting designers and the riggers and the people that built the stage.

58:45And they're like, well, you know, I know the CMO over at, you know, Volvo. I was like, great. Well, give me her number then. you know? So it's like, you just have to go where the energy is and you take whatever you can take and you just keep your eyes on the prize because you can pivot. When you have choices, you can pivot. And when you don't have choices, you do whatever is in front of you. Emma, you are just incredible. As I'm sitting here listening to you, I'm almost forgetting that I'm supposed to interview you. I could listen to you all day. This is the perfect moment to take a break. I got to give our amazing sponsors a chance to share a few words, but holy smokes, you're on fire and we're just getting started.

59:26And while we take this quick break, I want you to think of someone you love. I am sending this ASAP to my daughters, to my son, to a couple of my friends. I mean, this episode is a gift. It has the power to change their life and light a fire under their ass. And oh my God, since you haven't been able to do it, let Emma do it. Don't go anywhere because Emma Greed and I will be waiting for you after this short break. Stay with us.

1:00:01Welcome back. Today, you and I are getting to spend time with the extraordinary Emma Greed. Yes, she is the co-founder of Skims and Good American, and she is here to make you aspire to a bigger vision for your life. So, Emma, let's just jump right back into it. You're now 34 years old. You've been running this incredible agency, wheeling and dealing and negotiating and not having fun yet because it's only the last five years that you really love what you're doing. And you have this idea, and you end up in a room with Kris Jenner. And what happened? Well, you know, I think the important thing for people to understand is that I had spent 10 years building my career at the intersection of brands and fashion.

1:00:46And so I had a fantastic understanding of what works in fashion and where the white space was. I really understood what was missing. What do you mean by white space? So when I talk about white space, it's where the opportunity is. What wasn't out there? Where was there a problem that I could find a solution for? And Good American was a solution. It was that, you know, most women are massively underserved by the fashion industry. 68 % of women in America are above a size 16. And yet when you go into a mall, there's maybe two or three shops out of the hundreds of stores that will actually cater to that size.

1:01:24Now we're going back 10 years ago, right? When I first had this idea. So the landscape has shifted a bit largely because Good American has impacted it. But back then there were very, very few options and all the options, quite honestly, were bad. They were ugly. And I had come from a place, you know, in East London, all my family are big, curvy women and they have confidence and they feel good about themselves. And especially, you know, you think about black culture, it's like the bigger the buck, the better. And so we were very much, my idea of beauty was much, much broader than what was being shown in the media.

1:01:57And so I had this idea and I just decided, I was like, I'm going to do this. I have spent the last 10 years building value for all of my clients. And I was very well remunerated and I had a fantastic business and I managed to sell that first business. But I wanted to do something that was for myself, that I owned and that I could feel very proud of and start a brand instead of helping all of these other brands. And so what happened is I had seen how celebrity endorsement can really accelerate a brand because 10 years working on all of those campaigns, you know, Natalie Portman for Dior or putting people in L 'Oreal commercials or whatever it was I was doing.

1:02:37I understood how that worked. I understood that talent was a key to unlocking an audience. And so I was like, great, I'm going to start this brand. I'm going to fill the white space, do something that isn't out there. And I'm going to couple it with a talent to make it explode. And so I pitched Chris and Chloe, now feels like a legendary meeting. At the time, honestly, it didn't feel like a legendary meeting to me. At the time, I really knew that I had something special. And I had spent a long time figuring out why this was going to be so successful. And, you know, if I go back eight years now, Good American was a complete trailblazer.

1:03:19There was nothing like it. There was a reason that we did a million dollars on day one. And it wasn't because people were like, oh, you know, this sounds like a good idea. It's because they could feel the difference. They understood that we saw them. They felt seen, they felt heard, and they felt represented. And it was a magical moment in my career because it was an idea that I'd come up with. It was an idea that didn't exist, that I'd started from scratch and it was resonating. It was working. And then I realized I know nothing. I know nothing about running an apparel company. all of my agency experience and opening offices all over the world meant nothing because I was in the Garmento business.

1:04:01I was not a Garmento. I knew nothing about making clothes. And so it was like, you know, I had this on the outside, this huge success that was getting so much press and so much attention and growing on social. And yet I had no idea how to run that business. I want to go back to this meeting and the idea. So the idea was to, how did you frame the idea eight years ago? Because it was absolutely a trailblazer. So you've got this white space idea that is, this is not like everybody's got that uncle who's like, I thought of Uber. you're like uh-huh okay okay sure did you do it okay no you you you had been building toward this moment yes for well over a decade and so you not only had an idea you had obsessed around the industry you knew that you were going to do this didn't matter if Kris Jenner and Chloe or anybody said yes because you were going to do this oh I was going to do oh hell yes you were and so So tell me, though, what was the pitch?

1:05:10And pull up a chair and put us in the meeting in terms of how that meeting went. So you have to imagine that for the 10 years previously, I had been in practice. I pitched the world's biggest CMOs. I put the biggest celebrities in the world in the biggest campaigns in the world. I had been on set with the most famous men and women on the planet. And I had won awards in my agency. I was a trailblazer in that business of celebrity fashion entertainment. My agency was the best agency doing what it did. And so in a way, Mel, when I got into that meeting, I thought I had a gift in my hand and I was ready and willing to share my gift because I knew I had an idea that was golden.

1:06:03And I really approached that meeting saying, hey, I have this golden, brilliant thing that I have researched and I understand and I'd gone out and made, you know, I had a pair of jeans and this is going to be the next big thing in fashion. And so my mindset was that this is done. I am launching this thing. It comes out in October. Where do we go from here? And I think that there was something so special in that moment because everybody could see it. Everybody understood. The reason I was able to attract the right investors and the right partners and the right retailers is because the idea and the execution and what led up to it was so incredibly special.

1:06:47I had done my homework. I knew the difference between me and everybody else. I had obsessed the price point. I could tell you the price of every single pair of jeans that sat on the Nordstrom denim floor. And I could tell you what the content of those jeans were. And I could tell you how my jeans were made differently and why when a woman put them on, she felt a certain way in them because I was obsessed, obsessed beyond anything that would be reasonable. Because in my head, I had to succeed at something that was mine. Because when you spend your life as a consultant, making everybody else look good and being the person behind the scenes and not taking credit for it.

1:07:26There's only so much of that that an ego like mine can take, quite honestly. I was like, wow, look at that campaign. That's their idea again, you know, that I came up with. And so for me, I was ready to take credit and to do something that meant something to a group of women that I admired, that I felt had been overlooked. And the love that I got back, milk. I cannot say, the best thing about Good American wasn't the million dollar first day, wasn't that, you know, all the praise we got. It's the women on the streets, the women that would stop me. You know, I would go into Nordstrom and people, because I used to, you know, I was like, I'm going to work in Nordstrom.

1:08:06I'm going to just hang around until a customer comes. And I'd be like, have you seen this brand, Good American? And they'd be like, oh my God, I just bought a pair of Good American. I'm back to buy my second pair, my third pair. You know, it was feverish. And I could tell from all the feedback that I was getting that we had done something really, really special. You know what this is? It's excellent. Thank you. Thanks so much. I'm really proud of you. Thank you. You're so lovely. So what happened next? It was a disaster, Mel. Oh my God. You know, it never feels like you think it's going to feel to get everything you've ever wanted.

1:08:45No, it was a disaster. That's what they don't tell you. That's what they don't tell you. Yeah. And when I say it was a disaster, the first, you know, if you go back to launch day, it was amazing actually, because, you know, you've got your Shopify site. I was in, you know, my husband had an office in LA. At that time, I was like just sitting at a conference table with the two people that I'd hired around that conference room table. And so we had the Shopify screen up and you can see like the customers are starting to come in and people are starting to purchase. And everyone was like, Emma, you're a genius.

1:09:15You're going to like have amazing sales today. This is like nine o 'clock. And I'm like, I'm so clever. And then 10 o 'clock rolls around and they're like, well, you know, you're out of all the size, whatever's this through this. And I'm like, it's okay. You know, we'll replenish. And this wonderful woman, I will never forget. She still works with me to this day, Melissa Anderson. She says, you do know that we're off calendar. And I thought, why is this woman? What does off calendar mean? Well, that's the problem now. because you're not in fashion, so you wouldn't know what off-calendar means.

1:09:42But I was in fashion and I still didn't know what off-calendar meant. And if I'd have known, I wouldn't have had the problems that I had. So my naivety kind of hit me right there because she was like, you don't have more inventory. If you sell through what is here today, it's going to take months to get back into stock. And we are not holding any fabric and we don't have the vendors lined up. Because in my head, there is no way that you would sell through that much inventory. It was a brand new brand. It was a brand new idea. You know, even retailers, when we pitched it to them, didn't fully understand the concept of carrying all of those sizes.

1:10:16So long story short, I remember everybody by about 11 o 'clock, they stopped celebrating me. And by 12, it was like, maybe you're not fit to be the CEO of this company. And I thought, maybe I'm not for about 30 seconds. And I was like, everybody needs to calm down. And at that point, it was like a lesson in customer service because I had started to disappoint people because people were coming on the website and they couldn't get their size. They couldn't get what they wanted. And so I started calling people. And at that point, of course, it's all email. There were no phone numbers. So I was like, what is your phone number?

1:10:50Hi, Sally from Michigan. I'm so sorry. I can get you a pair of jeans in about 13 weeks. and I just went and I went and I went and I emailed and I phoned and I called. And that's when I started to really fundamentally understand the business that I was in because I had to go backwards before I could go forwards. I had to figure out how is this juggernaut going to actually work and function because I don't understand it. What's so interesting about that story is you would think that selling out of your entire inventory on day one would be a great problem? It would be a great problem if you could get some more inventory in the next couple of weeks.

1:11:30But if you're out of, you know, again, attention span is very, very short. And I knew that two great things. Number one, the majority of my customers couldn't just go elsewhere, right? There was a limit. But at the end of the day, there were a lot of women buying Good American that could go to any brand. And if you want something, you're going to go elsewhere. And so I had to figure out a way of creating community around what we was doing so that I could be in conversation with my customer. That's pretty unbelievable. So how, so, because, you know, it would also be pretty arrogant, though, wouldn't it?

1:12:05Isn't it irresponsible to run a business thinking you're going to sell through all that stuff that fast and then have all that inventory sitting around? Well, yeah, like I never imagined, you know, it's expensive product. I didn't think people would swarm us like that. And, you know, there's always a little bit of me, again, because of where I come from, I'm responsible. I treat money like money. To me, it's not just like a number on a piece of paper. I'm like, that's a hundred bucks right there. That's a lot of money to part with. And so in my head, I wasn't going to do something irresponsible and put myself in a situation that I couldn't claw myself out of.

1:12:38And for me, it was about managing expectations and doing things responsibly. And also I was very, very lucky because I had surrounded myself with real business people. And if you go back to that kind of time, it was all about direct to consumer businesses, growth, growth, growth, doing things, just chasing a customer. And I was like, you know what? I'm going to make a profitable business because that's what I understand. I know that money on the bottom line equates to optionality, meaning that if you are making money, everything that you want to do is possible. And if you don't make any money, your choices are limited.

1:13:14Yes. End of. It's really basic math. You have to know that. And so for me, it was important to do something at a level that made sense to me, that I could control and that I felt comfortable with. And again, I say I, I, I, because it all fell on me. Again, it's about responsibility. I took responsibility for my investors' money. I took responsibility for those customers and what their needs were. I took that responsibility extremely seriously from day one. What is kind of the biggest lesson from your experience launching Good American? I would say that my biggest learning has actually been uncovering who is really useful to you when you're building something like that.

1:14:04I don't know that coming from an agency background that I had an intricate understanding of financial modeling, of how pivotal a relationship with my bank was going to be, of how this thing called a factor, which is a lending facility between you and your retailer, was going to be, of how those retailer relationships. You know, I was so lucky from the beginning that I had pitched to Pete Nordstrom and Pete Nordstrom got it. And he was my champion. I didn't understand how valuable that was. And those relationships are what allow me to be in business in the way that I am with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars of sales today.

1:14:46Those relationships. It weren't the press. It ain't the celebrities. It's not like, it's none of that. It's none of the things that I was like, ooh, this is fun. It's none of that. It's all of the behind the scenes stuff. It's all of the foundational people and relationships that allow you to go where you need to go. It's the unsexy stuff. It's honestly goes all the way back to you working at that crappy job building catwalks because it was all the people behind the scenes that is the network. And we're all so busy chasing the shiny stuff that, to your point, you've already said it, look at what's right in front of you.

1:15:23Work with what you have. Work with what you have. And go from there. How did Skims come? to start? Well, Skims was a bit different because that was Kim's idea. Kim had the idea of starting this shapewear company. And I think that I was a trusted partner of the family by that point. Got it. And I just, again, when I get excited about something now, I'm like, this is the best idea ever! You know? That's one of those products. It's just like, That makes so much sense. And it is so obviously the right thing to do and so on brand and so needed and solves a problem and just, well, I should say Skims is a sponsor of this podcast.

1:16:07Yes, Skims. Only bras I wear. Go Skims. You did not pay me to do that. Well, let's talk though about your experience investing and being a judge on Shark Tank? Because you've got to have seen some amazing pitches and some really horrible ones. You know, everybody wants to take their shot, right? What advice do you have for somebody who can get into the room or happens to be introduced to somebody and you want to take your shot and make your pitch, how do you do it without being overbearing or inappropriate or, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, totally. So let's just talk about this for a second in terms of what is most important for a pitch, right?

1:17:02Because that's the first thing that people get wrong. A lot of fantastic, brilliant, successful entrepreneurs are excellent storytellers. So they're not coming into you going like, hey, I've got this thing and it's$5.99 and it does da-da-da-da. They're telling you a story. They are weaving a narrative in your mind for what this thing does for the solution, for how it came to be. And they're going all around that. But they are taking you on a journey. And you're like, you're in. You're in like you're being red Goldilocks, right? It's like, and you're eating it up. And that is the starting point.

1:17:38Because to be an incredible entrepreneur, you've got to be able to sell and you've got to be able to storytell. And those two things are the things that I think people don't think about enough. When you can craft a story and a narrative that is compelling to your customers, you got them. You got them hooked. That is your sales pitch. So really figuring that out and practicing it. I can't tell you how many times I sat down in a mirror and spoke about Good American before I met Pete Nordstrom. Like maybe 50 times. I did that pitch over and over and over and over again. Remember now, I knew nothing about construction of denim.

1:18:21I was a marketing kid who went into product. So I had to like really finesse it. And I had to, again, you know, I'm not a plus-sized woman, but I had to embody my customer and embody who I was solving for. So the first thing is like, get your storytelling down and make sure you're not just flogging a product. You are telling an interesting, compelling narrative. And then you've got to work out your timing. Because if you're in a party, if you are at a social event, if you're on a quick ride, that's not the time. That's not it. And you will be better saying, I've got something that would be really interesting to you.

1:18:55And I wonder if you've got a good five minutes to do it. Because if you get that timing off, right, the person is not there to receive your thing. My next thing is about your attitude. You can be excited. You can be exuberant. You can actually even be a little bit arrogant, right? That is fine. So long as you know your shit and you really need to know it. You really need to know. And when I say you need to know it, you need to know your competition. You need to know what you're up against. You need to have figured all of those things out because when you have your chance, you have to be ready.

1:19:30There is no practice. There is no, it's like, that's your moment. So you've got to figure those things out way ahead of time. That's how you do a really great and really compelling pitch. Excellence. Again. We're back to it. We're back to it. We're back to it. We're back to excellence. And excellence can be practiced, right? It actually needs, excellence does not change. show up. No, you've got to, you've got to try and you've got to sit in front of someone and fake pitch it. You know, you've got to do that. And you've got to be willing to take the feedback. You know, everyone used to say to me, Emma, you're fantastic.

1:20:05You just speak really fast. And I'll be like, I do? Really? What do you mean I speak too fast? You know? And so I had to learn to slow it down a little bit, but you have to be willing to take that feedback. So for someone who wants to start a business, what's the best piece of advice to give them. I think my best advice is that, and this is where I want to be really honest, Mel, not everybody should start a business, right? And so I think that you have to really think about what you're optimizing for. What are you trying to do here? We are in America. America is an incredible place to be successful.

1:20:49And that isn't always about starting a business. We've romanticized this idea of what it means to be a founder. It might be that you are the type of person that thrives on comfort and you need to know what's happening next month and the month after. That's not a founder. That's not an entrepreneur. And you would be better working for one of the great companies that we have in this country. You can have a fantastic beautiful, ambitious, entrepreneurial corporate career in this country. And so you really need to be honest with yourself about who are you and what are you trying to optimize for? Do you want to be that?

1:21:31Are you somebody that is risk adverse? Are you somebody that's willing to put it all on the line? Are you at the stage in your life where that's even an option for you? Or do you have kids and a mortgage and parents that you're looking after. So the first thing is, let's just be honest and not go around telling everyone that everyone should start a business and everyone's an entrepreneur because they're just not. That might not be what people want to hear, but that is the truth. That's what they need to hear. That's what they need to hear. That is fantastic, honest advice. What's the worst thing that somebody could do if they know, okay, I can handle the uncertainty.

1:22:06I cannot let this thing go. I am going to do this thing? What's the worst thing that they could do? Be short-sighted. You have to be long-term. I don't know any business that does what it does in the movies. It takes time. It takes so much time. And for you to get in your stride and be good at something and start hiring people and those people to work out and your thing to start tracking and the retailers to take notice and then the press to set up. That takes time. So you have to know that nothing happens overnight. And are you willing to commit yourself to this thing for the next few years? 10 years.

1:22:51Honestly, that's what it takes. That's what it takes. That's what it takes. And if you're not willing to do it for 10 years, then you're not actually committed to it. Yeah. We overestimate what we can do in a year. That's true. It's true. So, you know, if somebody is listening right now or they have someone in their life that either just lost their job because there's a lot of people losing their jobs right now, or maybe they just want a pivot. They're thinking about reinvention or they want to start a business. If you had to really name the skill that you believe is going to be the most marketable and important in the next few years, What do you think that skill is that somebody should either focus on or learn or double down on?

1:23:40So the first thing is you have to figure out what you really care about, what you uniquely can get obsessed over. And then you're going to have to work out how AI is going to disrupt that business and learn it. And I talk about this all the time because by and large, Mel, women missed out on the first tech boom, right? There are far too few female engineers. There are far too few female coders because we weren't in it in the same way that the guys were in it from the beginning. And then the education followed that path and the training and the jobs and the seniority, it all went that way. We must not miss out on this AI boom.

1:24:25If you ain't using it, use it now. And I'm not talking chat GPT as your search engine default instead of Google. I'm talking about whatever it is that you do. If you are an editor, if you are working in planning or merchandising in a fashion company, whatever it is that your job is now, figure out the way you can utilize AI tools and start learning them and force yourself to learn them because that's the future. That's where we're going. And, you know, I know that so many people are like, oh my goodness, I don't want more technology in my life. I'm just trying to not use my phone as much. I want to get back to real life and real people.

1:25:02You can't avoid it. We've never been able to stop progress and nor should we want to. And there's going to be a lot of great stuff that comes out of this AI. Boom. And you have to be at the forefront of it. So it's like start to figure out how you can ingratiate it into your life and your work now, and something will start to emerge. You'll start to understand it, see where the gaps are, get into that white space. You'll start to learn something differently, and it will become habitual for you. I could not agree more. How are you using it? Oh, in so many different ways. Well, you know, because for my own podcast, the team is minuscule.

1:25:40So we're using it in a lot of ways, whether it's for research or transcribing or pulling certain and clips like but there's so many ways and you know what I did actually two years ago um in the office was really say to everyone whoever can use AI in their department here's a bonus we have a bonus system and it was so interesting you know you think it would come like from the marketing department or the real creative departments absolutely not it was the accounts team that found a way to um systematically figure out chargebacks which is a huge part of our business Yes. And I was like, are you kidding?

1:26:14Not only saving the company actually hundreds of thousands of dollars, but coming out of the department that you would think is less dynamic. And so I think when you start to challenge people to find efficiencies in the way they work, it really is like the best thing that's happened to us. Emma, if the person who is hanging on every single amazing word that comes out of your mouth takes one thing and does one thing today. Out of everything that you've shared, what is the one thing that is the most important thing to do? You have to get out of your head. You have to change the narrative that fills you with the fear that stops you from moving.

1:27:07And I say that because I've been there. I've been in a job where I've been dreaming of something else for the longest time. And I've written proposals and I've done presentations and I've filed them on my desktop and then I left them and I didn't see the light of day. And guess what? The first one I did is the one that you're wearing today. You're wearing the jeans. You're wearing the idea that made it off of my desktop. That's it. And if I can do it, anyone can do it now. Anyone. Emma agreed. What are your parting words? You know, honestly, I'm so grateful to you. I'm so unbelievably grateful that you would asked me to come here.

1:27:59And, you know, I wish I had something better to say, but my honest truth is that I dreamt of being who I am now, but I just didn't let the dreams stay a dream. Right. It's like, I just decided that I would have to get up and make it a reality that if I worked and if I tried and if I was willing to kind of sit with the failure and the knockbacks, that that would be okay because eventually it would come. And so I just want to say the same to everyone else. Eventually your time will come. That's it. You have to know that about yourself. That is just it. Well, here's what I know about you. You are a force to be reckoned with.

1:28:45Thank you. And you understood the assignment and you showed up and lit the biggest fire, not only inside the person that has been listening and watching, but also inside me. I think you are a gift. You deserve every single bit of success that you have worked your ass off for. Thank you. And there's no doubt in my mind that there will be a million other Emma Greeds that are inspired by your story and the generosity of the wisdom that you have shared with us today. I love you. I am so grateful to have met you, to have learned from you, to feel so inspired by you. And thank you. Thank you for being here.

1:29:30Thank you for having me. It's been a joy. Thank you, Mel. And thank you. Thank you for listening to something that I know will change the course of your life because this particular episode is going to change the course of mine. Like I literally want to stop talking and go do something. I am so fired up after being with Emma and being with you. And so take this gift, share it with everybody you know, and then make yourself get to work. And in case nobody else has told you, let me be the first person to say as your friend that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to aspire to amazing things, to get to work, to figure it out.

1:30:15And Emma just taught you exactly what to do to put it in motion. Now go do it because you know, your friend Mel is going to be cheering you on every step of the way. All righty. She lit a fire under my ass, so I got to get out of here, but I will see you in the very next episode, the moment you hit play.

1:30:37You'll get very used to it. You don't even think about it. Oh, my gosh. All right. I got to stick that in my bra then. I'm going to do it. If I can get in there. Okay. Yep. Okay. Oh, you're putting it in. I am. She's putting it in her bra. Well, it is. It's a great place to have a crystal because it's like, you know. Oh, I didn't put it on the hard side, though. You did not pay me to do that. I only talk and love things that I love. I knew you were wearing skims today and we all know why. Mel, you're the best. You're like, literally, I don't know whether to think about what I was saying or take notes about what Mel was saying.

1:31:11Like, in my head, I was like, fucking hell, I'm going to watch this one or not. You are so excellent at this. It's a joke. You're so amazing. This is one of the best conversations we've ever, ever, ever had. No, don't even say that. I'm kidding. You are such a talented storyteller. Oh, I love you guys.

1:31:33Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.