Stop Wasting Your Time: How to Deal With People Who Won’t Change & What to Do Instead

23:43Goodish person is constantly trying to improve. And so the irony of it is even though goodish sounds like, okay, well, you're not as good is good. Goodish is actually better than good because you're constantly getting better.

23:55Mel Robbins:And you're giving space for the days where you blow it. And you take ownership for it. So there's a difference between giving space. Let's say I say something that hurts someone. Let's say I use a term that I don't realize has some offensive meaning or history to it, and I get called out on it. The idea here is not to let myself off the hook. Well, you know, they're too sensitive. Yeah, I'm goodish. You know, they were a little too sensitive. I'm sorry, you know, you were so offended. The idea is for me to say, okay, there's something I didn't know. I'm going to own that I did some harm there that I didn't intend to.

24:32It's not that I'm a bad person. It's that I didn't know. And now I'm going to learn, take ownership for that and do better the next time. So the ownership piece is really important. It's that I'm a goodish person who keeps trying to get better. And in doing that, I'm going to improve myself, not just prove myself.

24:54Mel Robbins:This is such a helpful framework because it really reveals to me anyway, and probably to you as you're listening right now, how hard you are in yourself. Oh my gosh. And what impossible standards you hold yourself to. Right. And I would love to have you, Dr. Chu, just speak directly to the person who feels weary when you say constantly improving, because there's a nuance to what you're saying. You're not saying you got to be constantly pushing yourself, constantly improving, constantly going to the gym, constantly trying to do better, constantly grinding it out because you're not doing enough.

25:37Mel Robbins:Right. It's a different mindset. Yeah. And I'd love to have you put that in context because I'd be willing to bet that the person that's listening and is making time to be with us right now is probably exhausted. Totally. They're trying very hard. They end the day feeling like they didn't do enough. And as you're starting to have this realization like I am that, wow, I'm probably the hardest person in the world on myself because I'm trying to be a good person. But I've defined this in a way that's impossible to reach. So I always have at least 10 things at the end of the day that make me feel like a bad person because I didn't get to them.

26:19So how do you want us to

26:22Mel Robbins:really think about what that means going from proving that you're good and then annihilating yourself at the end of the day, I'm bad, I didn't do this, versus this change in your mindset that you're just constantly trying to improve. Exactly. Well, I think you just nailed it in what you said. So what's exhausting, and we're all so exhausted for a lot of reasons right now, but what's particularly exhausting is feeling like a failure. it leads to what psychologists call learned helplessness if you keep trying keep trying keep trying don't feel like you get anywhere eventually you just learn that you're helpless and you give up what we're talking about here is yes something that takes a little bit of effort but it's less exhausting because what you're at the end of the day evaluating is have i grown not have I succeeded?

27:25And that's a very different question. It's what have I learned today, not what did I get right or wrong today? There's a million things I'm sure I've done wrong as a parent, but one of the things that I'm happy that my husband and I implemented early on with our kids is when they would bring home any sort of grade or test or paper from school, we would try really hard not to react to the grade. All we would say is, do you understand what you did? Do you understand what you got wrong? Did you try your best? And I think those are actually great questions for us all to ask ourselves at the end of a day.

28:07Not, did I get it right or wrong? It's, what did I learn and did I try my best?

28:13Mel Robbins:What did I learn and did I try my best? That's a beautiful thing. So two questions to ask yourself at the end of every day. What did I learn? And did I try my best? Yeah. You know, I am really learning a lot. And I find myself constantly reflecting about my own behavior as I'm listening to everything that you're teaching us. And I bet you are too, as you're listening. And here's what I want to do. I'm having so many ahas. I've got so many more questions, but I want to take a quick pause for a moment so we can hear a word from our amazing sponsors, but don't you dare go anywhere because when we come back, Dr.

28:54Mel Robbins:Chug is going to talk about the difference between pushing somebody to change and pulling them. She'll explain the three ways that you get somebody to change because there's only three and a little later, you're going to learn all about something amazing you're going to use with your family called the one to 10 rule. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.

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32:40Mel Robbins:Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins, and I'm here with Dr. Chug, an award-winning social psychologist and professor at NYU Stern School of Business. Today, she is teaching you and me how to deal with people in your life who will not change, how to stop wasting your time and energy, and what to do step-by-step instead. So, Dr. Chug, here's my next question. One of the things that we hear from our audience in 194 countries is one of the things that people struggle with the most is this sense of I'm not good enough. And when I listen to you and what you're teaching us and that we hold moral standards over ourselves and we judge ourselves every day, let's just be honest, as you're listening right now, think about how many times you've sent a text and then you say, I'm an idiot.

33:31Mel Robbins:I shouldn't have written that. Think about how many times. You walk out of a party and then you judge yourself for what you're wearing. Think about how you leave work at the end of the day and you tell yourself you didn't do enough and yet you didn't even give yourself credit for the hundred emails and Slack messages and Zoom meetings that you attended. And we're constantly holding this judgment over ourselves. So no wonder we don't feel good enough. Here's what it's also making me realize. If I'm this judgy of myself, I'm now realizing how judgy and opinionated I am of other people. And if I have a standard for what Mel Robbins needs to do every day to be a good person, can you imagine what the list looks like for what my husband Christopher Robbins needs to do to be a good husband.

34:25Mel Robbins:Right, right. If the list is impossibly long that I hold over my own head, imagine how long that list is for my husband. I mean. And my kids. And the people I work with. Right. And the stranger in front of me. So, I mean, the question is, how do we help others change? I love how you said help. Yeah. Because I'm trying to force. Manipulate, control, bribe. Whatever it takes. So one of the things we talk about, I mean, I'm all for bribery. My most effective parenting technique to date in a couple of decades has been that I sing to my kids. How is that effective? Because I'm a terrible singer and they really don't like it.

35:13So if I'm saying do this, do that, nobody's listening, I'm not getting anyone's attention. and then I start singing, you are my sunshine. I could do it for your audience, but you'd lose listeners. Let's hear it. You are my sunshine. Now I want to pick up my stuff and clean my room. I'm like, anything, mom, but stop. And I'll keep going until they do the thing.

35:32Mel Robbins:Oh my God, I love this. Isn't that good? Why does that work? It's a little bit of a pull versus a push, right? So a push is saying, go clean your room. A pull is creating the conditions in which you want to go clean your room. Because they want to leave you. Yeah. Oh, wow. So, and this is a big, this is a big. It feels more like a repel, honestly. It might be. Yeah, that's fair. It's fair. But the push versus pull distinction is a really important one with the leadership classes I teach. That when we're trying to influence others, sometimes we do need to push. And that means we're directing them.

36:07We are telling them. We are forcing them. That's a push technique. And we see it in the workplace. We see it in our families. It has its place. We tend to overuse it, though. And so pull techniques are more about creating conditions under which people want to do it on their own. As you said earlier, where I am the boss of me, where I might be asking questions or I might be being a sounding board for someone else to let them create their own plan, their own desire and purpose around the thing that I want them to do. that almost always takes longer. Always. Than push. However, if it works, it lasts longer as well.

36:58Mel Robbins:Realistically, what can you do to help someone you love change? Realistically, you can model change. You can invite change. You can reward change. But you cannot make anyone change. Let me give an example of what I mean by model change, because I think it's an important one. There's a story that may or may not be true, but it's sort of taken on epic fable proportions. Mahatma Gandhi, who was one of the leaders of the nonviolence movement in India in the 1940s, he became seen as the person that people would go to for wisdom. And in this fable that's told about him, he would receive people who would travel by foot hundreds of miles to come to him and ask for his wisdom.

38:00And one day this family came to him with their young child and said, Gandhiji, we have traveled a long way. We've waited a long time for our turn, and we need you to tell our son who's withering away, he must eat food and not just sugar. All he will eat is sugar. Gandhi listened to them. He heard their request. He nodded with understanding. And then he said, please come back in two weeks. Not the response they were looking for. They had traveled a long way. They had waited a long time. Their son is withering away. wait two weeks. Why? But out of deference, they go back home. Two weeks later, they make the long journey.

38:46They wait the long time for their turn. They arrive at his doorstep. They say, now, please, Gandhiji, will you help us with our son? He's withering away. He's only eating sugar. And Gandhiji said to them, my son, you must stop eating sugar. well that seems like a bit of a buzzkill after all of that and they say to him thank you thank you but with all due respect why couldn't you say that two weeks ago and he said because two weeks ago i was still eating sugar so the first step when we realistically want to help someone change is to think about what we can do ourselves to model change. Now, that doesn't mean I'm not trying to add to our exhausted plate.

39:35I'm just trying to say in all the work we're doing ourselves, can we make it visible to others that we know this is hard? And this is what we are struggling with. So if your partner's snapping at the kids, you keep telling them, stop snapping at the kids. and they keep snapping, they get defensive. What if you talked about the struggles you have sometimes with snapping at the kids? What if you mentioned that you noticed when you have a snack in the car before you come in to the house, it helps you take a moment? What if you talked about the things that you've tried that haven't worked and how embarrassed you are by the fact that they haven't worked?

40:19Mel Robbins:That's a super helpful story and example. The second thing that you said that we could do is invite change. What does that look like? What's an example of inviting change? Inviting means creating the conditions under which someone can do it and not feel self-conscious about it, right? So let's say your partner says, doesn't say, but let's say they are going to go ahead and like, all right, so I'm not supposed to snap at the kids. I'm supposed to, but even though I'm tired, maybe what I'll do is try to tell a story about my day or I'll try to be funny and like try to say something relatable, whatever.

40:56And when they do that, they come off a little awkward. The story goes on too long. They don't quite get it. The kids are tuning out. If I in that moment say, what are you doing? This isn't helping. That's not inviting change because they just did something. They changed something. It didn't work, but they tried. So inviting change is allowing the unlearning to work through.

41:26Mel Robbins:Oh, so it's recognizing tiny attempts. Yes. And having grace. Yes. And just kind of really understanding, oh, this is the unlearning process. Exactly. Stumbling through it. This is what it looks like. This is what it feels like. They're not going to all of a sudden know how not to snap at the kids. And what does reward look like? You said we could reward change. What does that look like? Absolutely. Depending on the situation, whether you do it publicly or privately, it's in whatever the love language is in your scenario, telling them you noticed it, you saw it, you appreciate it. If you think it worked, sincerely tell them, I think that really worked.

42:08I saw our daughter light up when you gave her that moment of attention. Thank you for hearing me. I know that was hard. You must be tired.

42:17Mel Robbins:You know, how do you know when your advice is a complete waste of time? For example, you have a friend that keeps dating people that disrespect her. They're complaining about it or they're complaining about their partner of eight years, but they never act on your advice. Right. Stop giving advice. Stop giving advice. How do you know when it's time to stop giving advice? So I like the wait rule. What's the wait rule? Why am I talking? Oh, wait. Why am I talking? Right. So I didn't come up with this. I don't think we know exactly who came up with it. It was popularized by Michael Bungay-Stanier in his book, The Coaching Habit.

43:04The weight rule reminds us that when we're talking, especially if we're talking about someone else's problem, we're almost always talking at them, which means that agency, that sense of I am my own boss, we're taking it away. So the first question is, have they even asked for our advice? Most of us want to help the people we love solve their problems. That doesn't necessarily mean they asked us for help to solve their problems. And another great little rule of thumb I've heard is to ask people when we feel tempted to solve their problems. This one probably won't work in the workplace, but I think it works really well in families.

43:52Do you want to be heard, hugged, or helped? And then my addition to that rule is or high-fived. heard means they need to vent in your example the partner needs to vent hugged means they need to feel loved helped they need my advice and they want it they're asking for it and the high five piece that i've added is sometimes a lot of us want people to notice how hard we're trying how exhausted we are, how well we're doing. And especially as women, we're not really given permission to just say that's what we need. So we kind of keep dropping the breadcrumbs, hoping someone will high five us. So heard, hugged, helped her high five.

44:40So friend is complaining. They're never taking my advice. My first question is, did they ever ask for it? The advice. The second, let's say they are asking for the advice and they're not taking it. To name that, Say, I know you've asked for my advice. I'm really flattered by that. And I'm always happy to offer it. But I got to ask you a question. When you ask for my advice, do you mean you want to be helped or do you want to be heard? Do you want to be hugged? Are you in pain? Do you want to be high-fived for the fact that you're a great partner and you're not getting the attention you want at home?

45:18Can you tell me a little bit more about what you mean by advice?

45:21Mel Robbins:This is so helpful. And I love those four categories because I think when I'm in distress or I'm emotionally flooded, I often don't know what I need. And so when somebody asks those four things, I might even surprise myself. One mistake I've absolutely made is when somebody comes to me and they're feeling down, I make the mistake of trying to immediately lift them back makeup. And oftentimes when people come to you in a moment when they're down, they just want a hug. They want a hug. They don't want the pep talk. They don't want to be told to be strong. They don't want you to fix this. They want to be reassured and comforted.

46:03Mel Robbins:And so I also like the heard hugged, helped and high five because it stops me from stepping over a line. I like that a lot. Yeah, absolutely. The funny thing is when I've asked this question, I mean, I haven't actually counted, but I think 90 % of the time, the answer I receive is heard. Dr. Chug, thank you for explaining that way. You know, I am really learning a lot. And here's what I want to say to you. If there's someone in your life that you keep thinking about, because I keep thinking about the people in my life that I'm trying to change, or if you have somebody in your life who's really hard on themselves and could really benefit from what we're learning today, Just copy a link to this episode and share it with them while you're listening to our amazing sponsors.

46:48Mel Robbins:Stay with me.

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48:21Mel Robbins:Well, consider it time because when your body changes, your bra needs to change too. You can think about a fitting as boob therapy. At least that's how Soma thinks about it, because their fit experts not only determine your correct size, but they'll find the perfect bra for your body, your life, right now. You wear a bra every day. Shouldn't it fit perfectly? Of course it should. Forget the letters and the numbers on the tag. It's the fit that matters, not the size. The Soma designers think of everything. Straps that don't slide, underwire that doesn't poke, breathable cups that lift in shape, and lace that's sexy and soft.

48:58Mel Robbins:because they're a brand for women, by women. Don't believe it? Feel the fit. A fit so perfect you'll forget you're wearing it. And don't you love their tagline? Try them. We dare you. Visit a store or soma.com slash bras to shop and use code MEL20 for 20 % off. Hi, Mom. Hi, Oakley. I was just sitting down to record an ad for our sponsor, Wayfair, and I was like, wait a minute. Oakley just moved into his off-campus apartment and you just assembled your new bed from Wayfair. So I want to hear all about it. How amazing was it? The bed is amazing. I mean, I just moved in last night and I was expecting a super painful and hard setup process because that's what I've been used to.

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50:24Mel Robbins:Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. And today you and I are learning from Dr. Dolly Chug, who's an award-winning social psychologist and professor at NYU Stern School of Business. She is teaching you and me how to deal with people in our lives who will not change. So, Dr. Chug, let's talk about difficult people. Okay. So let's talk about somebody who is always crossing the line. Yeah. I have someone in my life that just has this love of the jab. I don't know if it's conversational style, but I bet as you're reflecting upon difficult people in your life that there are just some people that when they are there, you're on edge.

51:11Mel Robbins:You're just waiting for it. You're waiting for the political mark. You're waiting for the dismiss. You're waiting for them to say the passive aggressive thing. How do you handle somebody that is insulting or difficult? I think a lot of people can relate to what you're describing. And sometimes it's at the level of you're dreading the family gathering because that uncle is going to jab and often jab down, punch down. And by the way, they want you to take the bait. Now, listen, we do need to be careful because that person may be doing real harm to people in the room and to people out in the world.

51:50But what we can do in that moment with that person is rather than giving them more oxygen by going back and forth, we can take some of the oxygen out. How do you take the oxygen out? So he says the thing, you can say, ouch, or whoa, or my gosh, you don't look old enough to be that old fashioned. Now realize what I'm not doing is inviting an argument. What I am doing is telling everyone else in the room, that's not okay what we just heard.

52:23Mel Robbins:The only thing that I've ever said is something that I once heard Jefferson Fisher say, and it works like a charm, which is, did you actually mean to say that out loud? Yes, I like that too. Because you are, because what are they gonna be like? Yes, I'm gonna sound like a dickhead. And like, you know, like, and no, No, there's kind of a weird silence thing that happens, and then you get up and clear the table. Yeah. But often I just find it's not worth a response. It's another example of you're not giving them oxygen, but you're also not endorsing it. Let's talk about dealing with somebody who gets really defensive.

53:00Mel Robbins:Okay. The kind of person that is so hard to talk to because the second you try to give feedback, whether it's at work. Yeah. or it's to one of your adult siblings, they immediately get defensive. What do you do in that situation? So this happens all the time. I get defensive when I get feedback. I've noticed other people get defensive when I give them feedback. Sometimes the problem isn't the defensiveness, it's the feedback. Oh. But I want them to be the problem. I don't want my feedback to be the problem, doctor. Trust me, they are the problem. But let's figure out how we can show them that they're the problem.

53:44So feedback is a word that's often equated with adjectives. So what do I mean by adjectives? I might say to someone, your work isn't polished enough, or it's not thorough enough. Polished and thorough are adjectives. there's a lot of ways to understand what polished means they might think that means there's no typos they might think that means there's like good animation in their slides they might think that means the way they talk to the customer they might think that means that they're wearing certain clothes to work and polished could mean a lot of things and so when we give feedback that's in adjectives.

54:29It's really easy for other people to become defensive because it's easy for them to argue with it.

54:37Mel Robbins:Oh, so how do you give feedback that somebody can't argue with? The feedback that's hard to argue with and that's actually easier to act on, so if you're looking for a change, you'll actually get the change you want as it focuses on the behavior. So I might say I've noticed that on the slides there are inconsistencies in the way we refer to the client's business. On one slide it said they were in the hospitality business and in the other slide it said food and beverage. To me that looks like we haven't gone through and done a thorough proofread. It's not polished enough. So do you see how once I laid out the actual behaviors, it's indisputable.

55:25I just, you know, it says hospitality here. It says food and beverage there. It's a specific behavior. And now I can say, that's what I mean by it's not polished enough.

55:37Mel Robbins:You know what I felt as you were saying that? What's that? I started to feel defensive. Oh, really? Say more. Because I was realizing I am guilty of speaking in adjectives, especially with my family. Yeah. Because I get emotionally flooded. Yeah. When I see particularly just things that are a mess. Yeah. And oftentimes when we're giving feedback, we're already in a state where we're annoyed. Right. And that's how I can see that things could become very vague. I'm going to give you an example. Let's do it. So I think I did a pretty good job on this. Okay. So we have a bunk room at our house in Vermont.

56:23Mel Robbins:And one of the things that I love more than anything is that our son, Oakley, who's 21, is home from college. And he and his best friends from high school have a window washing, an odd job business. It's year four. Shout out, Sparker Boys. And they are employing like 15 kids. Like they're cranking it out. And they hang out at our house a lot. And I freaking love it. And I am very clear with them. I'm not your maid. I'm not your mother. You are always welcome here. And the fridge is stocked. And the door is open. And the arms are open for a hug. But if you turn me into your maid or your mom, you are not going to be welcome here.

57:04Mel Robbins:I work so hard that I do not appreciate coming home from a long day of work and seeing this place looking like a frat house. And so the other day, and they've normally been really, really good. But the other day I came home from being gone for eight days and I walked into the bunk room and it looked like they had been hazing people in there. Like I was just like, and we all know how, bunk bed seems like the most amazing thing in the world until you have to make a bunk bed. Oh, right. So normally the old Mel Volcano would pick up the phone and call Oakley and be like, and I took a deep breath and I put them all on text and I said, hey guys, just got home.

57:51Mel Robbins:Yeah. And wanted to share something with you. I took a photo of the beds and the towels on the floor and the wet bathing suits on the couch. and I said, does this look like leaving this in the way you found it? Is this representative of what you're capable of in terms of taking care of this house in the way that I've asked you to do. No, no, no. We can do better. And I said, great, because after being gone for eight days and working as hard as I do, walking in here and seeing that you've left this for me doesn't feel good. Right. Mel, that's amazing. I don't know how I had the restraint. Yeah.

58:47Mel Robbins:I can even show you all the photos. Because once you see it, you're like, oh my God, we left the house like that? Oh, she was coming home today? Like, if it was like that for seven days, I don't care, but not on the day. You're not that dumb, right? So what you did was another important dimension of feedback is to state your expectation. Good feedback at the workplace or at home includes a few elements. One, people have to know what good looks like, what the expectation is. So either they have to know in advance, or if they didn't know in advance, or you didn't know in advance how to convey it.

59:21Once you saw what it wasn't, you were able to convey it. Then they have to know what you saw, heard, the actual behavior. That was the photo for you. The photo was the behavior. So you stated the expectation, you gave what you observed in the behavior, and then you described the impact it had. And from what I heard in your example, there was no adjective and you didn't need one. The adjective is the least useful part.

59:49Mel Robbins:Yes. Let me give you another example. Let's say you are having trouble getting your family to help, whether it's help with the laundry or when you walk in the front door, don't just disrobe and drop it all right at the entry. There are cubbies. If you have a mudroom for a reason, can the shoes go in the cubbies? You know what I'm saying? Can you get the laundry moving so that it doesn't sit after you do the wash and then rot in there and stink? Can we get some help? How do you get your family to help? I use this when I'm teaching conflict resolution and negotiation classes to my MBA students, and I use this one in my own family and my marriage.

1:00:39It's the one to ten rule. the question to ask myself and ask someone else particularly when we disagree on something or I'm asking something of them like in your example asking them to do certain things around the home is on a scale of one to ten how important is this ten is the most important

1:01:03sometimes what I'm asking for when I'm asking them to hang the things up the hanging up is not the 10. It's the me feeling heard is the 10. Me not being expected to do it for them is the 10. Sometimes maybe the hanging up is a 10. Maybe there are people coming over and no way am I going to be judged because you know I am going to be the one who's judged when someone comes to our home by this is how I maintain a home. So maybe it is a 10 in that moment. But it's not always a 10. And I think sometimes the people around us hear everything as a 10 from us.

1:01:45Mel Robbins:And if everything's important, nothing is. Exactly. Exactly. So you stop and ask yourself one to 10. Yeah. And what number am I acting on? Exactly. No, I mean it. Which like, yeah. And, and if you and the person in your family are having a discussion about this thing on the ground right now. On a 1 to 10 scale, how important is it to them that it be dropped on the floor? Well, see, I assume it's a 1, and that's why I'm offended, and it's a 10, because it's important to me, but it's not important to them. And if it were important to them, they would pick it up. Do you see what I'm saying? And this gets back to the...

1:02:19No, but how important is it to them to not listen to you?

1:02:22Mel Robbins:Oh, probably a 10, because their value might be, I'm my own person, and you don't tell me what to do. I've been at college for two years, so I'm now an adult. This is my space. And when I come home from college and I don't feel like this is my space anymore, I don't feel like these are my rules anymore, it needs something to be mine. Oh, you're really good. And also, if I've been working all day in the hot sun, washing disgusting windows in other people's houses, and I've had to pull it together and manage people, I'm freaking exhausted. And I don't care about your damn house because I'm coming in and I want to relax for a minute.

1:02:59Right, right.

1:03:01Mel Robbins:Ooh, wow. I'm arguing about the thing on the floor. Right. But we're completely missing each other. Maybe. Because the 10 that's important for me is, hey, I need help around here. And the 10 that's important for the person you're trying to change are completely different topics. I mean, what we do with my husband and I is if both of us are between one and seven, then whoever's the higher number wins. And like, why are we even talking about this? life is busy, let's move on. And if either of us is an eight, nine, or 10, there's something to be understood here and discussed. It's worth our time.

1:03:36It's worth my, you know, effort. I love that.

1:03:40Mel Robbins:How do you know when you're supporting somebody versus enabling them? Oh, gosh. Oh, Mel, this feels like a dream sequence because I feel like this is the central growth area of my life. Adult children. Is that what you're about to talk about? Yes. The universe is trolling me. And I've learned so much from your work on this very issue. So let me step a little bit outside of my expertise as a social psychologist and more into just my lived experience of seeing how the science of growth works. My definition of hell on earth is watching someone I love suffer and not being able to do anything about it, being helpless.

1:04:26I honestly don't think there's any greater pain in this world. I know that a lot of people have been in this position where in an instant we would take their pain, we would take their suffering, we would take their distress, But all we can do is bear witness to it. And that's what feels like hell. Sometimes what we think is supporting other people is us trying to deal with that feeling of hell. we're just trying to lower the pain of it by doing something and while it might make us feel slightly less helpless it's probably making things worse why does it make it worse if you're

1:05:19Mel Robbins:providing the financial support or you're giving a place to live or you're doing the things that we want to do because we're trying, I think you're right, to feel like we're doing everything we can to support this person. But actually that soft cushion of support is keeping the person from hitting the edge of their experience. And truly having to reckon with the consequences of the decisions that they're making and the patterns that they haven't been unwilling to unlearn yet or haven't been able to. Yeah. I think the way you described it is exactly my sense of it as well. I'm also centering my own needs in that moment.

1:06:12I don't mean to. I love this person so much. That's why this is happening. But by me doing the things that make me feel better, it's a little harder for me to see what they need.

1:06:22Mel Robbins:Have you figured out, because I know this is deeply personal for all of us, and nobody can actually tell you when is the appropriate time to keep doing and offering support and paying for things and stepping in because that's the thing that makes you feel like you're doing what you can do, and that's the thing that is the only part of this that you can control. And when is it that you say, I recognize that this person does not want to change, they are not ready to change, and I am a participant at this point in propping up the dynamic. And the only thing I can do now is remove myself from the dynamic so this person has both the dignity of their own experience and they also have to feel the consequences of the way they're moving through life.

1:07:19Mel Robbins:It's so personal. And I don't know if there's any kind of sliding scale ruler, like self-reflection to be able to really wrestle with yourself. I think, though, just recognizing that we know it's hard for us to grow. And then we've talked about having empathy for how hard it is for others to grow. sometimes it's hard for us to let others grow. I love that. You in two practices, Dr. Chug, in your classes, you call it shout outs and own it. Yeah. So what is shout outs and own it and how can I and the person listening apply this? Absolutely. Yeah. So one of the classes I teach is about how to be a good boss.

1:08:07And one of the things in that sort of leadership type of class that we talk a lot about is noticing what people are doing well and expressing it to them. Now, this is leadership. I'm talking about how to be a good boss in the workplace, but it applies broadly. We are leaders in our families. We're leaders in our communities. We're leaders in our religious organizations. And so what we're doing at the end of this class is asking for volunteers to shout out a classmate. Again, it's often things that the things that they shout out, I really appreciated when Mel asked that question because I was thinking it too, but I was really afraid to ask it.

1:08:52And the person who asked the question may not have thought twice about asking it, or they may have felt a lot of anxiety about asking it. And now that they hear that someone else was also sitting with that question, they feel less anxiety that was that question, a dumb question.

1:09:06Mel Robbins:You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to take a photo of those bunk beds when those boys make it, and I'm going to put it in the group tax and shout it out. Great job, guys. I love it. I love it. And then own it is taking ownership for a way in which, you know, you didn't kind of get it right that day. And by get it right, I mean, someone might say, listen, I want to own it. I had my phone out a lot during class today. I just had trouble being engaged and I'm really sorry. And I know it kind of affects everyone else when someone takes their phone out. Or I was late today. My small group had to get going without me and then spend time catching me up.

1:09:40I didn't manage my time right. I'm sorry. I love the own it. I love the own it. And I have to say, like in class, one thing I was thinking about this coming semester is we get a lot more shout outs than own it's, which makes sense. I mean, there's a lot more good than not going on. But I think I need to do more onits myself to sort of motivate more onits for my students as well, which is another thing we know about being a good boss is we want to be bringing out the best in others, but doing it in a way that shows we're taking accountability from when we're not at our best.

1:10:13Mel Robbins:Well, one of the things that you've taught us is that when it comes to trying to change other people, you can model, you can invite and reward. And shout outs are really, I'm really good at shout outs. I notice all the things going well to a fault. Okay. And if you over compliment people, then you create an inability to hear criticism or to hear feedback. And so the own it piece as a parent, as a colleague, as a friend, owning it where you didn't show up, where you flubbed something, where you threw your crap in the entry after yelling at everybody else. Yeah. To me, that's modeling. Yeah. Change and accountability.

1:11:07Mel Robbins:I like that a lot. I do too. I like that a lot. That's one of the – that's a big thing. I'm taking a lot of things from this conversation, but I am going to pull that and own it. I love it. In my life as a parent, as a friend. And I think we may do shout outs and own it's here in our meetings because I feel like the muscle of owning it when things aren't going well is something we can work on. Nice. So thank you for that. For the person who's listening, you have poured so much into us. I mean, when I think about what you've taught us about the difference between knowing better and doing better, this subtle but serious moment of needing to unlearn behavior before you can change it.

1:11:54Mel Robbins:Right. Oh, my gosh. The two questions to end every day. The tool after tool after tool that you gave us from pushing to pulling to the 1 to 10 rule. There was just so much here. if the person listening takes just one action, what is the most important thing to do after you have listened to this episode, other than sharing it with everybody you want to change? I love it. We're going to let Dr. Chubb change him. I would say I bet everyone in your audience considers themselves a lifelong learner. What would it mean to be a lifelong learner and a lifelong unlearner? Oh. Like simply by listening today and investing the time in yourself.

1:12:44Mel Robbins:You learned so much. And having that I'm a lifelong learner, I need to unlearn some things to continue to grow and to not prove anything. But as you said, to be improving the way that I feel about myself and the way that I approach life and the way that I connect with other people. Right. Amazing. Dr. Chug, what are your parting words? I would say that hope and energy lies in growth. To just lean into that. There's all this pressure on us. We're so exhausted. We're being pulled in every direction. And sometimes that makes us feel like, oh, there's no more to do. I cannot do anymore. And I promise you that when we allow ourselves into this space, this space of growth, of improving rather than proving, we will feel more hope and more energy.

1:13:37Mel Robbins:You promised at the beginning, Dr. Chug, that we would feel lighter and we would feel a little bit more in control. And I feel that after talking to you. You do? Yeah. I want to thank you because I learned so much today. The conversation was not exactly how I thought it would be, even though we put a tremendous amount of upfront research in to get to the point to have the conversation. But what you really did for me today, and I bet I'm speaking on behalf of you as well as you're listening, is I really reflected on myself. I thought that I was going to come in here and get all the tips and tricks to diffuse the jerks out there and to manipulate people to change and have everybody stop draining my energy.

1:14:30Mel Robbins:And what I realized is I'm actually draining my own energy. I'm the one who's holding this impossible standard over myself. And then to fulfill my own needs to feel good, I'm pressuring everybody else. And there's a very different way you can go about this. And you made us smarter about change, the reality of it. And you also, I think, opened up this window of true compassion and empathy by helping us understand the dynamics. And I also appreciate the tactics. So thank you. I love your synopsis. Thank you, Mel. This was great. Thank you for being you. And thank you for having me here. Oh my gosh.

1:15:08Mel Robbins:It's such a pleasure. And thank you. Thank you for making the time to listen to this. I hope you found it as fascinating and as helpful. I hope you reflected on how hard you are on yourself. That good, goodish balance, that whole distinction between constantly trying to prove that you got it all done and that you're good versus just exhale. What if you're just unlearning and learning and improving? And don't forget those two incredible questions. I love those. Did I do my best today? And what did I learn? You start asking that, and I promise you, you're going to learn a lot about yourself, and you're going to grow into the person that you are meant to be.

1:15:49Mel Robbins:And in case no one else tells you, as your friend, I wanted to tell you that I love you and I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And the tools that Dr. Chubh taught you today will help you create a better life and feel better in your life. I am certain of it. All righty. I'll see you in the next episode. I'll welcome you in the moment you hit play.

1:16:14Mel Robbins:It's question 10. Yeah, let me get to where we are. Therese, any notes? I know, and it's written. Okay, let's try 10. I mean, it's so frustrating. You'll also learn how to stop weight. Do you like that? Let me do the top one more time. The science that's going to help you finally break free from the endless frustrating cycle. Oh, Jesus. Are you okay? Did that hit your head? Wow. Oh, well, that's... Wow. Is it a magnet? Okay, here we go. Okay, well, that would sound great. Okay. Oh, here we go. No, just, no, today. Here we go. Today. Just go down a little more. Yep. Jesus, I literally have deleted this from my brain.

1:16:59Mel Robbins:Okay, let me look at my notes here.

1:17:04Mel Robbins:Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know, what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist. And this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode. Sirius XM Podcasts Can we talk about that moment in the afternoon? You know the one where your energy just drops. You're slower, foggy, groggier.

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