The #1 Relationship Researchers in the World: 50 Years of Marriage & Love Advice in One Conversation

23:21Mel Robbins:Right. Because neither one of you were listening and you're both blaming and now you're trying to talk over one another. Yeah. And then you both went like, huh.

23:30Dr. John Gottman:And if I'm physiologically flooded, I think all I need to do is repeat myself louder in order to be more persuasive. That's the way I reason when I'm flooded. 63 times later, have I listened? No.

23:49Mel Robbins:What does a positive argument look like? Okay, let's role model that. We can use the same topic.

23:58Dr. John Gottman:Okay, yeah. Okay, so what's going on, honey? Well, I'm kind of thinking that I can't do anything right. You know, I've tried, you know, being neater, more tidy, cleaning things up. And, you know, it's never good enough for you. It feels like that. And, like, I can't satisfy you. It's just like I kind of give up. You know, what am I supposed to do to make you happy? Oh, God. That sounds actually like a pretty terrible feeling. Yeah. So you're really frustrated because there's nothing you can do that you feel is good enough? Is that right? Yeah. Am I making you feel that way? Yeah. Oh, dear. What am I doing that leads to you feeling that way?

24:45Because I don't want you to feel that way. I don't want to treat you that way.

24:49Dr. John Gottman:Well, you know, like, for example, you asked me to clean up the kitchen. So I clean it up, you know, and it doesn't meet your standards. So I don't even know what your standards are. I mean. Do you want me to tell you what they are? Probably not. Well, no, that would help. Would it? I really would like to know. Yeah. Oh, gosh. Because I think I've done it just fine. Okay. And then you're disappointed. I just don't get it. I see. Well, I tell you what, what would make a huge difference for me is after. Let me write this down. Okay. That's a great idea. Get out your notebook. Yeah. Hang on a minute.

25:30Dr. John Gottman:Okay. Let me just breathe a little bit. Okay. I promise I won't hurt your feelings. Okay. After washing the dishes, it would be wonderful if you would wipe down the counters. You know, just get all those crumbs into the sink and then rinse them down the sink. That's really all I need, just to have counters that are clean. That would make a huge difference for me. Okay. It would feel great. You know, I really can't tell when a counter is clean or not because it's got, you know, you got this pattern of, you know. Colors. Yeah. This is true. This is why I chose a counter with brown in it. It would disguise all of the colors.

26:21Dr. John Gottman:Just wipe it down really well. Just wipe it. Yeah. Just wipe it. That's all you have to do. All right. Would you mind doing that? I'll do that. Yay.

26:31Mel Robbins:My God. Thank you. I love you too. That makes sense. You are adorable. We're okay. Can you explain what just happened in that conflict? Yeah, yeah. Easy. So it started in a perfect way, which was John bringing up that he's feeling bad about an interaction of ours. But notice he's not saying you're a schmuck and that's why I feel bad. He's saying, I feel like I can't do anything right. So, is you in there? No. He is having that feeling, which pulls on my heart, Mel. He's being vulnerable with me and telling me what his feeling is like. And that feeling I'm translating into, oh, God, he's feeling hopeless.

27:29He's feeling despair. I don't want him to feel that way. But here's the kicker. I want to understand what's making him feel that way. So instead of just responding with, you know, just a comment, I ask a question to try to understand. man, tell me more. Tell me more. Because, you know, it's sort of like if something pretty smelly is bubbling up from the earth, I want to know what's under the earth, you know, what's going on down there that is creating something that feels bad for him. So I ask him a question And that gives me information about, oh, that's what's happening inside. That's something that we can change.

28:22It leads to a solution.

28:25Mel Robbins:I love this example, and I'm going to tell you why. I personally know that Chris and I for years would have this reoccurring fight. And when I'm volcanoing and he's turtling, when he pokes his head out of the shell to say something, it would literally be, nothing's ever good enough for you. Yeah. And I think that's a very common, like, way that people then bark at each other. And it's very different to say, well, nothing's good enough for you. I don't even know what to do because it's never enough for you. Versus what you just taught us, which is instead of accusing, it's you, I feel, I'm that no matter what I do, it's never enough.

29:14Right.

29:15Mel Robbins:And you're right. As soon as Chris started saying that to me, I immediately feel like a monster. And then I want to know, okay, well, what exactly? I'm sorry. Yeah. And I can see why this works. Sure. Right. Right. You know, if couples fight the first way, yelling at each other, it's never enough for you. Fine. Door slams, go into your corners, is there hope? Sure, of course. You know, the thing is this. When in our lab we saw couples who were going down the road of distress, remember they weren't getting any intervention. They weren't reading anything. They weren't listening to fabulous podcasts like yours.

29:59They weren't trying to learn a different manner of relating to one another. So without intervention, they're falling back on old habits, on what they learned at the feet of their parents or caretakers, which didn't work. So, you know, nobody takes relationships 101 in high school. You got to learn different ways of talking to one another.

30:25Mel Robbins:When somebody says to you, oh, we never fight. Mm-hmm. What do you think? I think they're probably conflict avoiders, and I think, oh dear, we've got to help this couple surface, unearth the differences, the things that are irritating, annoying, because if you hold them inside and you don't bring them up, after a while they accumulate, and then you may end up with an eruption, right? Which doesn't help anybody. One thing that can happen, we saw in this study that

31:10Dr. John Gottman:the Sloan Center at UCLA did on dual career couples with young children, and they spent less than 10 % of an evening in the same room. They talked to each other an average of 35 minutes a week, and mostly what they talked about was errands. Who's going to do what, when? So they wound up really living these parallel lives where they ignored the relationship. They ignored friendship, intimacy, fun, adventure. They were just, their lives had devolved into this infinite to-do list that they did together, but that was the only contact they had. So they lived life in parallel. You know, he goes to work, she goes to work.

31:56Dr. John Gottman:They come home, They're with the kids, but they're not really talking to each other. They're not saying, God, you know, we used to have so much fun and we don't have any anymore. We're just kind of becoming drudges. They don't say that to one another. They say roommates. They stay roommates. They avoid conflict. They avoid saying how lonely they are, how unhappy they are, how much they miss the way they used to really pay attention to the relationship.

32:23Mel Robbins:If the person listening is thinking, well, that's me. because I can think of periods of Chris and my marriage where we have three kids who are now all in their 20s. But when they were little, that was us.

32:36Dr. John Gottman:That was you.

32:36Mel Robbins:We were two ships passing in the morning and the night and arguing about who didn't go to the grocery store and that no matter what I do, it's never enough.

32:44Dr. John Gottman:Yeah, you have to build in rituals of connection in the relationship. Build in times that you can count on having your partner's ears. And, you know, we have an annual honeymoon that we do. And for 27 years, we've gone to the same bed and breakfast and took our kayak. And we spend two weeks asking each other three questions. What sucked about last year? What did you hate about last year? What did you love about last year? And what do you want next year to be like? So we have that ritual where we know we can connect. and it's romantic and it's fun and we kayak and we hike and it's always magic.

33:30Dr. John Gottman:Let me point out, though, what John is talking about, especially for really busy two-career couples, are those rituals of connection. But they don't have to be great big broadcasts. They can be something so simple like, how do you say good morning? first thing when you wake up? How do you say good night and you look forward to that? What do you do on the weekends when you get to sleep in? How about a date night? You know, I mean, lots of people talk about that, but do they actually do it? So there's so many ways we can connect with one another that sustains the sense that, ah, they're right beside me.

34:21They're right there, even though they're in a different office.

34:25Mel Robbins:I love that recommendation because I do think when you're in that moment, as the research suggests, which I think most couples are both probably working because of the reality of how expensive life is, and coming and going, and that only 35 minutes a week, I mean, that's just sad. Can you imagine? And I appreciate the small thing, like, could you create something first thing in the morning? Could you create something that's part of the wind down at night? One of the things that I remember that made a big difference, and I'll just share it in case it's helpful for the person listening, is since logistics was the reality and it was also the source of all of our conflict, the one connection ritual that really changed things was we had a Sunday night calendar meeting.

35:10Mel Robbins:That doesn't exactly sound like a date night, but it became a consistent thing we could do every week that helped us be aligned and helped us coordinate the logistics at one point.

35:26Dr. John Gottman:You were a team.

35:27Mel Robbins:Yes. And to this day, we do it.

35:32Dr. John Gottman:That's great.

35:33Mel Robbins:And it's just the smallest of things. And the other thing that I'll, I have to give a huge shout out to Chris that he does that makes a big difference for me, is he puts little notes, just kind of like the notebook you have. He'll rip out a page and just put, I love you, and I'll open up my eyeglass case in the middle of the day, and there it is. Beautiful. Or I'll open up my wallet, and there it is. And I had no idea that he had done that. And so it's kind of this little signal that I'm still here with you, even though I may not be standing next to you. You know, a consistent research finding is that you cannot just focus on conflict as a

36:13Dr. John Gottman:therapist. You have to work on friendship and intimacy, romance, passion, play, and fun. You have to work on all of that together. It's not enough to just make conflict better. You really have to bring, you know, the two souls together in a way that is, it brings joy into the relationship. Let me just mention something about your meeting, which is fabulous doing that as a ritual of connection. One thing that we also talk about is a weekly meeting, which often takes place on Sundays. We call it the state of the union, right? And so what we suggest is that first you begin with gratitude. You think of something your partner has done that maybe you haven't yet thanked them for, and you express your gratitude and your appreciation to your partner for having done that.

37:17You know, so often we take our partners for granted, right? Especially after years of being together. So all of us, however, still need to be seen. We need to be appreciated. And so starting with that is lovely. And then in the middle piece, maybe there is a complaint that you have, you haven't talked about, or maybe you had a little regrettable incident that you need process, clear the air about that, try and understand what went wrong during that and what to do right next time. And then you end the meeting with another appreciation, another expression of gratitude. I mean, there's nothing better than hearing gratitude as a sign that, look, you're visible.

38:10You're important to me. I see who you are. I love what you do. And I want you to know, I recognize you and you're beautiful.

38:23Dr. John Gottman:And a great question to end the meeting with is, what can I do next week to make you feel loved?

38:29Mel Robbins:Is that the best question in the world? The best. I know. You guys are so incredible. I don't want to take a break, but I have to hit the pause button so we can give our extraordinary sponsors a little love. And listen, if you're thinking of a friend, a sister, a brother, anyone who's walking on eggshells at home or keeps replaying the same fight on a loop and you keep hearing it about it, send them this episode. One of the most loving things that you can do for people is to give them a resource like Dr. Julie and John Gottman. And don't go anywhere because a little later in the show, The Gottmans are going to walk you step by step through how you can bring up something that you're afraid to talk about without it turning into a big fight.

39:12Mel Robbins:You do not want to miss this. So stay with me.

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42:44Mel Robbins:welcome back it's your friend mel robbins and today you and i are here with dr julie and dr john gottman they are the world's leading experts on love and what it takes to make a relationship work and they're teaching you and me everything we need to know about the four things that'll blow up your relationships and what you can do to break these patterns of conflict. I am so excited about the role-playing. So let's just jump right back into the next one. I would love to have us just really highlight the warning signs around conflict. And there are four horsemen of the apocalypse in your relationship?

43:25Mel Robbins:What are they? Okay. So the first one is criticism. Criticism means blaming a problem on a personality flaw of your partner. Like you're so selfish, you're so lazy, you're so inconsiderate, thoughtless, whatever. So a characteristic that's bad that you're seeing in your partner. That's criticism. Secondly is contempt, and contempt is the worst one we have. Contempt is like criticism, but you're coming from a place of superiority, looking down your nose at your partner, and you're sneering a little bit. You've got a look of disgust may be on your face. There's scorn, there's mockery, sometimes sarcasm is contempt.

44:19And contempt is not only the best predictor of relationship demise, but as John was saying, and I'll fine-tune it a little bit, the number of times a listener hears contempt in a conflict for 15 minutes predicts how many infectious illnesses they're going to have in the next four years. Right. Because it is sulfuric acid for the immune system. Yeah, it's a big deal. The third horseman is defensiveness. We all love defensiveness. Everybody's defensive unless they have an ego of a rock. I haven't met a rock lately. So defensiveness gets manifested as either counterattack, as we described, or whining.

45:15Innocent victim. Oh, I did too clean the kitchen. What do you mean? Okay. I love whining. It's great. And then there's stonewalling. And stonewalling is completely shutting down. But it's not shutting down for just a few seconds, you know, to come up with the right phrase. It's shutting down completely for minutes, minutes, minutes, long minutes, maybe hours at a time. And what brilliant John here and his colleague Bob Levinson discovered with physiology is that when a person was flooded, they were in fight or flight. Their heart rates were over. often over 100 beats a minute as they sat there.

46:02Dr. John Gottman:And they started stonewalling. And they started stonewalling in order to go inside and try and soothe themselves because being in fight or flight while you're sitting there feels awful, makes you sick. So that turtle thing that Chris does, right? Yes. And he's just trying to calm himself down. But to the person speaking to him, it looks like he doesn't care.

46:27Mel Robbins:Correct.

46:27Dr. John Gottman:And he's tuned out. You can't reach him.

46:31Mel Robbins:I'm yelling because he's like not responding. That's right. And it makes it worse. Yes. I can see that.

46:36Dr. John Gottman:Well, the other thing is that Bob and I also, as we kept following couples, we found there was a group of couples who didn't do the four horsemen. But when they talked about the events of the day, there was no connection. And they even went out of their way to show that they were bored with their partner talking about their day. So it's not that they had all this negative stuff. They didn't have very much positivity, not very much interest in one another, not very much shared humor, affection. And those couples divorce an average of 16 years after the wedding. They last longer, but, you know, it's still disastrous.

47:17Mel Robbins:I would love to go deeper into all four of the horsemen of the apocalypse of a relationship. Could you describe for the person who's listening right now, what do you mean by flooding? So if somebody's never heard this term and they're not quite, and I think it's kind of obvious if you're like the stonewalling or rather you shut down and you're like the turtle or you're a volcano like me. But can you describe what does it mean to have this emotional flooding and what are the kind of personality types of flooding, if you will, so the person can see themselves as we unpack the four different horsemen, if that makes sense?

48:02Mel Robbins:Sure, sure. So first of all, there is no correlation between personality type and flooding. Anybody can get flooded. Anybody, first of all. And what does that mean when you use that term flooded? Okay, so what it means is that you are so overwhelmed by what feels like facing a saber-toothed tiger. So what's happening is you're hearing what feels like an attack. It may not be one, but it feels like one. And because it feels like an attack, right, and it's a dangerous attack, it's threatening, It sets off this fight or flight response. And so men who experience this and get flooded are going to look like this.

48:56They give themselves permission to look away, to look away. But a female doesn't typically. And here's why. Because, you know, as women from, you know, this high, we are trained to relate to others, to nurture others, to take care of others, right? To be sensitive to others' feelings. So we don't give ourselves permission to break contact and look away. So what flooding for a woman looks like is very different. It looks like this.

49:35Mel Robbins:And you're just kind of staring. Nobody's home. No one's home. Nobody's home. Blank face. That's right. You may be meeting the other person's eyes, but nobody's home. You've taken yourself out. I just realized my daughter does that. Ah. Okay. When I get, like, scary that she.

49:59Dr. John Gottman:A deer in the headlights.

50:00Mel Robbins:Yes. Doesn't know what to do. That's right. Yeah. Okay. That was very helpful because you're right. And I know that this is all based on your research that for a lot of men, it's the crossed arms. It's the looking away. It's the walking out of the room. Yeah. Or going to make a drink as you're walking, like following them, yelling at them.

50:21Dr. John Gottman:Yes. Yeah. And it feels kind of awful in your body. You know, it's almost like having a panic attack. The breathing is more shallow and more rapid, and it really feels like there's no way to win here. Yeah. I mean, you just have to escape.

50:40Mel Robbins:Yes. I can see that. Yeah. And you're escaping your body or the room. That's right. That was super helpful. Let's dig into each of the four horsemen and start with criticism. Okay. How is criticism defined in the research? And I'd love to have you role play an example and teach us how we can shift out of it when we're in the middle of it. Let me just mention that the shifting that you are pointing out, which is very astute, is what we call repair. Okay. So making a repair during a conversation is a great way to step aside from those four horsemen and make the conversation flow better. Okay. Okay.

51:31So, again, I think the definition of it would be blaming a problem on a personality flaw of your partner. That's what it is. So let me start. Okay, go ahead.

51:42Dr. John Gottman:I've been meaning to talk to you because I think that I have something to teach you. What do you mean? Well, no, I noticed that, you know, you kind of get upset when the house is in some kind of disarray. And I don't have that problem. You know, I can concentrate really well, you know, whatever's going on around me. So I can kind of teach you to focus your mind more because I think your mind is kind of weak. You know, I think your mind is not strong. You think my mind is weak? Yeah, I think you have a weak mind. And I can help you strengthen your mind. Honey, I got better grades in college than you did.

52:25What? I don't have a weak mind. What are you talking about?

52:28Dr. John Gottman:Well, I'm just trying to be helpful to you. You know, I'm trying to help you strengthen your mind. So it's more like my mind. I tell you what, go help the dog. Okay? Not me. Okay, so that's criticism. All right. Got it. Let's show the antidote for each. Yeah, so how do I do that? So I'll make a repair. Okay. Okay. Okay, so why don't you pick up. Yeah. You know, like I was saying, you know, I really can help you focus your mind better and be much more like me. Honey. Yeah. I need to tell you, I'm really feeling defensive right now. You are? I don't want to be defensive, but I feel that way. The way that you're describing me feels to me like a put-down.

53:20Dr. John Gottman:Oh. Can you say what you want to say in different words?

53:27Dr. John Gottman:Well, okay.

53:31Dr. John Gottman:I think it would be great if, even when there were a lot of books around and papers around, that you were okay with that you didn't get upset who tall order yeah well i tell you what i i hear you and i know that i probably come across as an ag sometimes yeah i'm sure i do uh i would say that yeah yeah i bet you would um but i you know i think i can spend some of the time I'm feeling comfortable with everything scattered around. However, I think you probably know me well enough to understand that when my environment feels chaotic, just to me, it may not be to you, but it is to me, then I get all discombobulated inside.

54:30I feel really disorganized. And so all the papers and so on contribute, unfortunately, to my having that feeling. I wish I wasn't like that, but I am.

54:44Dr. John Gottman:Because I think that a house ought to be a little bit messy to be comfortable. Yeah, I know you do. My mom used to clean the place within an inch of its life. I love your mom. And she put plastic on all the furniture. She was crazy. That's true, I remember. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, you don't have to sit on plastic, okay? It's okay. Yeah. All right.

55:09Mel Robbins:Beautiful. And I saw you repaired by using I. That's right. I feel. That's right. I feel defensive. So when you're getting criticized saying, I feel defensive right now. Instead of going defensive. Right. Right? Instead of counterattacking. Yes. Or stop criticizing me. Yeah. Exactly. I feel defensive. That's the repair for criticism. Yep. Got it. Beautiful. On that note, how about we take a quick break and let's let our sponsors share a few words with you. And don't go anywhere. Coming up, the Gottmans are going to talk about what you need to start doing to turn toward your partner and the mistakes that you are making in the micro moments that are pushing your partner away.

55:55Mel Robbins:We can fix that and the Gottmans will show you how when we return. So stay with me.

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59:27Mel Robbins:Welcome back. It's your buddy Mel Robbins. And today you and I are here with the world's leading experts on relationships, Dr. John and Dr. Julie Gottman. I told you you would fall in love with them. And aren't you in love with them? I know I am. All right. I'm so glad we're back. Let's just jump right back in. Let's move on to contempt.

59:45Dr. John Gottman:Okay.

59:46Mel Robbins:You want to define that one, honey?

59:47Dr. John Gottman:Yeah. Contempt has this air of superiority. You know, I'm better than you.

59:53Mel Robbins:Can you show us what contempt looks and sounds like and how it is different than criticism? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

1:00:04Dr. John Gottman:You can't do anything right, can you? What are you talking about? I mean, you know, even when you go shopping, you spend too much money. You know, you spend too much money on clothes. So what? You know. So what? Well, we're trying to save for a down payment on a house, and you're ruining the whole thing. You just spent it. I'm ruining the whole thing. Right, right. How dare you? You just went out and bought a Porsche, for God's sakes, and I'm ruining everything? I need that for my work. I need that. I wouldn't spend it if I didn't need it for my work. To take it back. I need to take it back. Okay, so that's one example.

1:00:44So it's judgment. But from a place of superiority.

1:00:50Mel Robbins:What about the eye rolling and the like.

1:00:55Dr. John Gottman:Well, I was thinking of an example that one of our therapists talked about. He seen this couple and she was being contemptuous and he said, do you think you're better than me? And she said, better than I.

1:01:16boom wow isn't that a killer correct their grammar that's a great way to be contemptuous

1:01:25Mel Robbins:ouch i have a couple in my life that's uncomfortable to be around because as one person's talking the other one is like rolling their eyes that's right as they leave the room They complain about them. And why is contempt the most harmful? And let's start there.

1:01:46Dr. John Gottman:It's really a murder attempt at the person's sense of self. And the Jewish Talmud talks about it as murder. You're destroying the other person's sense of self. And you're saying, you are worthless. and that's the worst attack it's not just something you do that i don't like but i don't like you right i call it value you i call it character assassination

1:02:19Mel Robbins:that's what it is and do people that are contemptuous actually are they able to recognize it uh not always usually the listener is the one who recognizes it you know um the other person usually has a pretty heavy sense of entitlement that they deserve to say that. But let me also add something about why it's so destructive that, you know, a lot of people don't really think about and acknowledge, but none of us got parented perfectly, right? None of us got taught with absolute appreciation in school. So all of us have at base at least a part of ourselves that's insecure, that needs to be loved, that needs to be cared about.

1:03:14And some people like to say that that's immature or, you know, you're just not a grown-up. And I would like to say to them, no, that's wrong. We all have that inside ourselves. We don't lose that core of insecurity and the need to be looked at with care, with love, with understanding, to be spoken to with respect, even admiration. None of us lose that. We just add layers on top of it as we grow older. But it's still inside there and it can still get hit if somebody expresses contempt.

1:04:05Mel Robbins:That makes a lot of sense. So if you're the one that's getting stepped on and demeaned and interrupted and corrected by your partner, how do you repair this? Okay. So here's how I would repair it. Let's say he's just been contemptuous. So, you know, John, there's no way that I can hear what you're saying right now because I feel so insulted by what you're saying. I don't know if that's your intention or not, but I feel like shrinking away. I want to just disappear. I don't want that. because it really, I feel really hurt by what you're saying. So I wish you would flip what you just said on its head and tell me what you do want or you do like rather than this wave of negativity I'm getting.

1:05:12I feel like I'm judging you. Big time. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. That's what it looks like.

1:05:20Mel Robbins:And when you get somebody that says, I am judging you, now you're like realizing, okay. Okay, well, that's okay. So let's say I am, you know.

1:05:29Dr. John Gottman:I'm just trying to give you feedback. Honey, the effect of the feedback and the way that you're giving it to me pushes me away. It makes me want to run away from you because it hurts so much. feedback I can hear if you're telling me what you do want, not what you don't. Okay. Or what you don't like. Good point.

1:05:57Mel Robbins:Amazingly helpful. Yeah. I love that I feel insulted. I feel hurt. Because what ends up happening when it's you that is getting stepped on is you tend to flood. That's right. And you don't know what to do.

1:06:10Dr. John Gottman:That's right.

1:06:11Mel Robbins:Yes.

1:06:12Dr. John Gottman:That's right.

1:06:13Mel Robbins:Wow.

1:06:13Dr. John Gottman:Yeah, respect is as important as affection.

1:06:16Mel Robbins:Respect is as important as affection.

1:06:19Dr. John Gottman:Yeah. Especially for women. I think, you know, today women need to feel that their partner values and respects them. And as much as they respect anybody, you know. So one of my New Year's resolutions was, let me try to treat Julie with the kind of respect that I treated my father with. And I had to work on that and become self-aware of ways in which I was not communicating respect. For example, it takes her longer to get ready than it does me. so you know i would get in the car and wait for her and while i was in the car i was saying what heck why does it take her joe you know by the time she came out to the car i had worked myself into a frenzy you know of anger about this thing and you know instead i sat in the car and said you know she there's a lot of really important stuff that she sees that i don't see at all and she needs to get those things done before she feels ready to leave the house.

1:07:34Dr. John Gottman:So I think I'll just read my novel and whenever she comes out, you know.

1:07:39Mel Robbins:This was an issue in our marriage too.

1:07:41Dr. John Gottman:Yeah.

1:07:42Mel Robbins:Chris would be sitting in the pickup in the driveway running and I'm still putting my makeup on and then I'm running around the house looking for my keys because I forgot that he's driving. and when I would then get in the car, he would be really frustrated. Yeah. And I'd get an earful about it and now I try a little harder and he's usually listening to an audio book when I get in the pickup truck. It's been running for 11 minutes. I've shaved like four minutes off. He is the best ever. The third horseman of the apocalypse of your relationship is defensiveness. What is defensiveness and why is it so automatic?

1:08:30Mel Robbins:You just kind of feel like you should defend yourself. What should you do instead?

1:08:35Dr. John Gottman:You know, that lawyer that I talked about, he was amazing at not getting defensive when his wife was criticizing him. And he really was saying, she's got an important point. I just don't know what it is. I have to help her get to it. But I'm sure she's got something she really wants to tell me that's important. And he had that attitude, very respectful, you know. And I think that's the attitude you've got to take. Instead of saying, I'm innocent, you know, I have no responsibility in this. I'm pretty much perfect. If there's anybody defective, it's you. That's a really bad attitude because you're not going to listen if you have that attitude.

1:09:18Mel Robbins:I would love to hear you guys role play. And if you could do an example where one of you wishes the other one would either lose weight or take a little better care of themselves or, you know, get a trainer or actually pick up the weights that we bought last year and use them. You know what I'm saying? And then the other ones, because I think this is something that is... Oh boy. Yes. That's a hot issue. Yeah, it's a hot issue. Yeah.

1:09:47Dr. John Gottman:Okay. So let's say you criticized me for having a tummy, but you're really worried about my health. It's really not. So it's a good tummy. Okay. Let's see. John, I need to talk to you about something. You know, I know that you love sitting and reading your books, especially your mathematic books, which I cannot understand one page of. But honey, you know, you really, really, really should go to the gym more often. You really should. You're only going to the gym like once a month. That's not going to do anything for your body. I mean, you know, your body's starting to get a little kind of flabby or something.

1:10:40I mean, just that belly is going out further and further. Well, I think I'm fine. You think you're fine?

1:10:53Dr. John Gottman:Yeah, just, yeah. Honey, the thing that I'm worried about, and this is true for both of us, is that we're both getting older, right? And, you know, you've read all the newspaper articles about being fit really adds years to your life. Being healthy. Exercising is one of the best things you can do. I just read this article about a guy who's a long-distance runner, and he had a heart attack while he was running. and he was 40 years old. So I don't think exercise is such a great thing. But honey... A lot of these athletes are pretty stupid. Oh, sweetie. What they found is that there was a heart defect there.

1:11:37It wasn't the running that caused it. It was the heart defect. But...

1:11:42Dr. John Gottman:You don't think he overdid it? No, I don't think so. But if you don't exercise, I'm really afraid that you may suffer a heart attack. right yeah i mean i don't want to lose you i do not want to lose you and so i'm wondering how can i support you going to the gym more often or does that feel too controlling no i think what if we went together love it would you be willing to make the time Yeah. If I can swim. Sure. I like to swim. Swimming is great. Yeah. Swimming is wonderful. I haven't been in a long time. You haven't? Yeah. You want to do it again? Yeah. Well, yay. All right.

1:12:32Mel Robbins:That would be terrific.

1:12:33Dr. John Gottman:Okay. All right. I'll work on it.

1:12:34Mel Robbins:Okay.

1:12:35Dr. John Gottman:Yeah. How do you tell someone that it's not that you're worried about them, it's that you're

1:12:41Mel Robbins:losing interest in them? No. Okay. That's a good one. Because I think the exercise thing is a big one. Yeah. And, you know, like really taking care of yourself. And yes, there's the I'm afraid something that's going to happen, but it's also like I actually am pulling away from you because I'm not proud to be with you or I am losing my attraction to you. Okay. I have something I want to talk to you about that is super sensitive.

1:13:16Dr. John Gottman:Uh-oh. I know. Let me get my notebook. You better get your notebook. And let me preface it. Let me preface it by saying I adore you. I love you so, so, so much. It's nice to hear. Yeah. But. Oh, it is a but. Yep. Here comes the sensitive part. I don't know exactly what's happening, but as you've been gaining weight, becoming more of a sphere instead of a triangle, I don't know, my libido is going down. My sexual interest is declining. Oh, that sucks. Well, it does because I love you and I really, really want to express that physically to you. But at the same time, I really, really loved it when you were working out and I could feel the muscles in your back, in your shoulders, your arms.

1:14:29It felt really wonderful.

1:14:31Dr. John Gottman:So I wrote down, lose weight and get more sex. that's a possibility. All right. Okay. What do you think? Yeah. Would you like that? Would you like to get more sex? I'd like more sex. Because if about 20 pounds melted away, I bet you my sexual interest would go up. I could get that set down. Great idea. Yeah. Okay.

1:14:59Mel Robbins:Ta-da! I'm sorry I'm laughing, But you two are adorable and we have all been in a relationship like that. The fourth horseman that's going to destroy your relationship potentially is stonewalling. Right. We've talked a little bit about it, but just so we're clear about what it is. Okay.

1:15:22Dr. John Gottman:You know, we actually didn't understand it when we first saw it. And we brought men back in and said, what was going through your mind right there? so we got this sort of internal monologue that guys were going through and they really were saying this is hopeless i just gotta i gotta endure this i gotta get through this and don't say anything because whatever you say you're gonna make it worse and you know i'm just gonna go get a get a beer and watch the game you know and not think about this let me out of here that's what they were thinking you know and it was sad you know it's really like i'm overwhelmed you know i'm in a war zone you know and there there aren't any shelters

1:16:16Mel Robbins:yeah can you give us a example of what this sort of sounds like in a relationship uh when one when you know the man or typically the guy but often it can be the the woman Can be. Yeah.

1:16:32Dr. John Gottman:15 % of the time it was a woman's stonewalling. Right. Well, let's do you stonewalling.

1:16:39Mel Robbins:Okay. Okay. So I don't understand why you haven't paid the bills. I mean, the bills have got to be paid. Why aren't you paying the bills, man? They're sitting there on the table. Listen, this is not a big deal. It is.

1:16:56Dr. John Gottman:I don't want to talk about this. John, it's a huge deal. You're going to ruin our credit if you don't pay the bills. Would you please pay the bills? So what are you doing now? You're pretending I don't exist? You're just blocking me out? Honey, pay the frigging bills. What's the big deal?

1:17:24God. There.

1:17:29Mel Robbins:that that's what it looked like because we've all seen it and experienced it and if you were listening and not watching this episode as julie was you know basically telling him what to do and criticizing him and then the huff at the end is contempt yes right right that exclamation point of you, John, crossed your arms and looked down and looked away. And it is this act of like, there's nothing to do. I just need to endure this until she shuts up. Right. And that's the only option here.

1:18:06Dr. John Gottman:Yeah. And, and also if I say anything, it'll get worse. Yes. It's bad now, but if I say anything, I'll make it worse.

1:18:15Mel Robbins:How the heck do you repair something like that? If you're the stonewaller. and you've got somebody who's critical of you. Okay. Like, can the stonewaller, like, can you teach a stonewaller to repair? Because a stonewaller does not trust that it's going to get better if I say anything. Okay, don't forget. Yes. That what goes along with stonewalling is a heart rate over 100 beats a minute. Oh, because it's true. It looks like you're calm. Yes, it does. But because John and Bob had their couples hooked up to physiology that measured heart rates, we saw those heart rates like through the ceiling, 140, 150, and so on.

1:19:03Ten seconds before they started stonewalling. I never, ever, ever looked at stonewalling as somebody who's panicked and overwhelmed.

1:19:14Mel Robbins:Right. I've always seen this as a power play. Yes. That you're denying me attention and you are trying to just block me out as a way to control me. Exactly. And that is wrong.

1:19:31Dr. John Gottman:Stonewalling is an attempt to self-soothe. Right. Going inside. Okay. She can't touch me when I watch the game. So the game starts in 10 minutes. I'm going to go watch the game. I'll have a beer. I'll calm down. Yeah. So let me tell you. I can't do anything now. Yeah. Let me tell you what the antidote is. It's not saying something exactly. The only antidote is to do something to calm your physiology down. Okay. So we've seen the antidote. It is you tell your partner you need to take a break. that you're flooded, you need to take a break, and you tell your partner when you will come back to continue the conversation.

1:20:26And typically, the minimum a break takes is 20 to 30 minutes. The most would be 24 hours. What do you do during the break? You do not think about the fight. because if you keep thinking about the fight and, oh, I should say this when I go back, you'll stay flooded because you're still hooked into the fight. That is elevating your heart rate. You need to do something else like reading a book, reading a magazine, watching TV, playing with the puppy, even going for a run is fine, taking a walk, doing your email, Something that takes your mind off the fight so that those stress hormones can metabolize out of your body, you see?

1:21:22Dr. John Gottman:And it's especially hard for guys to do this. I would imagine. Because, you know, Bob Levinson did a study of startle. You know, you have a gun, a blank gun go off behind somebody. Women feel fear. Men feel a desire to get even. Get angry. Get angry, get even with the experiment. They feel, you know, rage about having been startled. And so that maintains the physiological arousal. And it was probably adaptive in our, you know, ancestors' time to stay physiologically aroused when you were hunting or protecting the tribe. But during a conversation with your lover, it's not helpful to stay physiologically aroused.

1:22:16Dr. John Gottman:It's counterproductive. Can't listen, right? So it's a challenge for men during the break to really distract themselves and do something entirely different.

1:22:26Mel Robbins:But the big breakthrough is to utter the words, I am emotionally shut down or I'm emotionally flooded. I'm flooded. I'm just, I'm flooded. I'm flooded. I'm flooded. I need to take a break. And, you know, the good thing about saying I'll be back in 30 minutes is that a lot of people, when you say I'm going to go take a break and they go, the other person feels rejected, thinks, oh, great. We're never going to get back to this topic. We're never going to solve this. We're never going to talk about it. Right. So saying, let's come back in a half an hour when I'm calmer and let's try again makes a huge difference.

1:23:17Mel Robbins:It makes a lot of sense. Why is, can we just move on? Why is that one of the biggest mistakes that you can make after a blog? Flooding, you mean? Oh, can we just move on? Can we just move on? Oh. Let's not talk about this anymore. Let's not talk about this. Oh, God, that's so terrible. Well, the problem in the relationship when you say, let's just not talk about this anymore, it's another way of saying, whatever you're thinking isn't important, so let's just drop it. You're not important. What a message, right? It's a terrible message. So that's why you don't do it. Yes. That is, you're absolutely right.

1:24:06Dr. John Gottman:And then there's a loss of trust. Right. Which is really damaging to the relationship. Right. I can't trust you to really keep your promises. Or be there for me. Or be there for me. Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about turning toward each other. Oh, so important. So important. So that's something that one of my graduate students, Janice Driver, really noticed in the apartment lab. There'd be these small moments when one person would try to get their partner's attention or interest or a conversation or show them something they were reading. And the cameras turned to the other person and we recorded the response.

1:24:47Dr. John Gottman:And they either responded, you know, or, you know, turned toward, we called it, or they didn't respond at all, turning away, or they responded irritably, turning against. and what jenny discovered was that when you look back at the couples who divorced six years earlier their average percent of turning toward their partners bids for connection was 33 and the couples who are still married look six years earlier their average is 86 percent wow rather than 33 so these small moments are really important Plus, she also discovered the secret to having a sense of humor during conflict was having a lot of history of turning toward, building an emotional bank account, of connecting.

1:25:38Dr. John Gottman:Then people had a sense of humor about themselves during conflict.

1:25:42Mel Robbins:I want to make sure that as you were listening to John say that, that you got the very helpful distinction of the three things that people do in those micro moments. And obviously what we want to learn to do is turn toward one another. Right. But the thing that a lot of people do is you either turn away or you turn against. Right. Right. And I think it's a very useful tool to ask yourself, am I turning against them when they're trying to hold my hand or engage in a conversation or tell about their day? Am I turning away from them? So what turning away means? A lot of people misinterpret that. They think it means, oh, you turn your body away.

1:26:27No, it doesn't at all. It means you completely ignore what they've said. Oh. You ignore it. So let's say I'm reading a book, and John calls to me from the kitchen, Julie. I ignore him. I keep reading the book. he says again honey do you know where the big fork is i ignore him as if he never said anything that's turning away turning against would be would you stop interrupting me i'm trying to read Hmm. That's the hostility you see that comes in turning against.

1:27:15Dr. John Gottman:Wow. They're really small moments, but the probability that a person will rebid after their partner's turned away is 22%. So only 22 % of the time do they say, honey, where's the fork? Or, you know, listen to this. They kind of crumple a little bit when their partner turns away. Well, of course. Yeah. You know what it reminds me of? You know what a sea anemone looks like? It's this little circle of a being in the water, in the ocean, that has little tiny fingers. And when it's relaxed, all those fingers are spread out towards the center of this little circle. Yeah, like if you saw the movie Finding Nemo, all the baby needles are in one.

1:28:07Yeah, exactly. Okay, so if you poke that sea anemone gently, all those fingers pull back. And then very slowly, it'll start stretching, stretching, stretching, stretching again. Let's say you poke again, that sea anemone is not going to stretch out its fingers. It's going to hide. That's what happens.

1:28:36Dr. John Gottman:Good image.

1:28:37Mel Robbins:That makes a ton of sense. And I would just love to have you speak directly to the person who's been with us this whole time because there's a lot that you have shared. There are so many tools and frameworks, things that you can put to use right now, and also things that you can really reflect on in yourself because you can't change them. You can use these tools to connect more deeply and to strengthen your relationship, but ultimately you can't change them. But a lot of what has happened for me with your work is it's made me understand the things that I'm doing that I need to change that can strengthen the relationship and the things that I can proactively do differently that build better connection.

1:29:28Mel Robbins:And so I'd love to have you just speak to the person directly. And if they take everything to heart, but they want to do one thing right after they finish listening, what's the most important action to take today? Well, I would say that when you realize conflict has a goal, which is mutual understanding, and what you need to do is postpone persuasion and problem solving until you can

1:29:59Dr. John Gottman:really hear what your partner is saying, what your partner feels, what your partner needs, what your partner's hopes are, and get that notebook out. slowly open it up slowly get your pen out and take notes and listen because when you do that you realize your partner is not your adversary your partner is your ally at solving a problem together you you can be a team that together is more powerful than either person individually and you solve that problem together. So buy a little notebook and a pen and take notes. Slowly get out your pen so you can wait at least two beats before you respond.

1:30:48Mel Robbins:Well, I cannot wait to listen to this again with my husband, Chris. Maybe it's what we'll do to celebrate our 30th wedding anniversary, and I now know what I'm going to get him. I'm going to get him a little notebook, right? Right. That's a great idea. And a pen. And a pen. And a pen. And one of the other things that I really loved about being with you two is that you reminded me of one of my favorite pieces of advice and truths about relationships that really go the distance and are satisfying for both people. And I first heard this from James Sexton, but it's just this idea that you're my favorite person.

1:31:30And being in the presence of the two of you and experiencing in person your warmth towards each other, your fondness towards each other, your kindness towards

1:31:46Mel Robbins:one another, the fun that you have as you are sitting together. it is the little things that are available and right in front of us. And I am so excited to get home to Chris tonight in Southern Vermont because I feel rejuvenated in terms of just that energy between you two, the warmth.

1:32:10Dr. John Gottman:You know, Helen Fisher taught us that being in love has no shelf life. You can be a love for 35 years, 40 years, 50 years. And we are, you know, and I feel enormous joy in the morning when Julie's in my arms. Every morning.

1:32:33Mel Robbins:You're going to make me cry. The Gottmans, everybody. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Mel. Thank you. Thank you, Mel. Thank you. I just love you too. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you. You know, I told you at the beginning of this episode, you would fall in love with the Gottmans. And didn't you? I mean, how could you not? I am so excited for everything that's going to happen in your relationships and in your life based on what you just learned. Because the truth is you deserve love. You deserve connection. You deserve respect and kindness. And now you have research-backed tools from the world-renowned Gottmans to use and to share for the rest of your life.

1:33:14Mel Robbins:How cool is that. And in case no one else tells you today, as your friend, I wanted to be sure to tell you that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And the thing that's going to make your life better is stronger and more loving relationships. And now you have everything you need to know, do and say to create them. So go do it. Alrighty, I'll see you in the very next episode. I'll welcome you in the moment you hit play.

1:33:44Mel Robbins:They are the founders of the Gottman Institute, which trains clinic. And today they have flown to our Boston studios from the West. They have flown all the way across the country to be here for you. One of the most loving things that you can do for people is to give them a resource like Dr. Julie and John Gottman. And don't go anywhere because when we come back, because a little later in the show, Dr. Dr. Gottman, thank you so much for saying that. I feel like you are... Thank you for... Dr. Gottman, thank you so much for saying that. And now you have all these incredible research-backed tools from the world-renowned Gottmans.

1:34:26Mel Robbins:Ladies and gentlemen!

1:34:35Mel Robbins:Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know, what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist. And this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.

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