Visioning & Future Casting In Midlife

0:00Meagan Francis: Hi, I'm Megan.

0:01Sarah Powers: And I'm Sarah. We're two moms with eight kids between us, and we're the hosts of The Mom Hour. On this show, we're joined by a team of unique mom voices from across the country and in different stages of motherhood to bring you tips, ideas, and encouragement, and to help you feel a little less alone.

0:17Meagan Francis: We all know that motherhood is a lot easier when real moms share honest truths and remind each other that it's all going to be okay.

0:24Sarah Powers: We're not experts. We're parents who've been there.

0:26Meagan Francis: We're not perfect. We're real. Welcome to The Mom Hour.

0:31Sarah Powers: Hey, everyone, and welcome to the Mom Hour. I am Sarah Powers here on a Friday with Megan Francis.

0:36Meagan Francis: Hey, Megan. Hey, Sarah.

0:39Sarah Powers: Well, we are wrapping up a three-part series that has been very loosely around the concept of time. So we're coming to you in June. Back in May, you heard us talk about time-saving, and then we didn't really talk about time-saving.

0:55Meagan Francis: I was going to say, I feel like this whole series has been where we started to talk about something, And then it diverted and we ended up talking about something like we basically just debunked. Yeah. Concepts.

1:05Sarah Powers: I mean, this is where we are 10 years into this podcast is you, you all may want tips about time-saving and tricks about productivity. And we're here to say mostly there's no such thing. Let's just agree. No, but very loosely back in April, we did talk about balance and busyness and how we each relate to those concepts and how hard it is to kind of find your sweet spot. We got a lot of nice feedback about that episode. And then last month, yes, we sort of debunked the myth that there is such a thing as like time-saving devices, except we did talk about the rice cooker and then a bunch more people, um, I think hopped on and purchased that.

1:43Sarah Powers: So maybe it was, maybe it was a sneaky infomercial for a rice cooker by accident.

1:49Meagan Francis: Can I just tell you quickly, because I did get a couple of questions about the rice cooker. If anyone bought it and you're wondering about the rice to water ratio, it's the same as the water rice to race or water to rice ratio would be if you were cooking using any other method. That also confused me when I first started using it. And I don't remember how I figured it out, but I think you must have look on the packaging or Google it.

2:12Sarah Powers: Yes. I think you must have guided me because I remember just ignoring, ignoring the little lines in the container, the insert and ignoring the little scoop. And I just always make it to whatever package instructions I'm making and it works.

2:28Meagan Francis: I ignore those lines too. Yep.

2:29Sarah Powers: Yep. And if it turns out a little too wet or a little too dry, just adjust it for next time. I think I had to do that with my steel cut oats. Something about the steel cut oats that I buy making them in the rice cooker. I have to use a little less liquid, but once I figured that out.

2:45Meagan Francis: If you make them too dry. And this is not actually, this is not an infomercial. I feel like we should have a disclaimer for a rice cooker, but I have gotten questions. I just want to make sure this gets addressed. So if, if your rice turns out a little too dry, I've had luck sprinkling, like maybe a, depending how dry, like maybe an eighth of a cup of water in there, mix it all up and then put it back on the reheat setting for a while. And it just like absorbs all the water and it comes out perfect. Same as if you get the leftovers out of the fridge and they're a little dry and cold, put them back in, put them on reheat, add like a sprinkle of water.

3:16Sarah Powers: It's magic. If you've ever gotten like take out Chinese food or take out sushi or something, and you have that rice that sort of congeals into almost like a hard block in your fridge. And you think like, this is not edible. Oh, it is my friends throw it in that rice cooker with a little bit of, like you said, a little bit of water, a little bit of chicken broth. And it's like fluffy.

3:35Meagan Francis: Maybe our future, like our future, Sarah should include, um, home shopping network or one of those. I don't know if they still have those commercials that used to come on and would be on for like an hour at night. Yeah.

3:47Sarah Powers: Whatever, whatever length.

3:49Meagan Francis: But I feel like you and I could do one just for the rice cooker, just as a freebie, whatever, just for fun.

3:54Sarah Powers: Whoever wants to listen. Okay. Well, back on track, we are talking about time in the future tense today. And we've, oh my gosh, we've talked about the idea of planning and calendar planning low so many times on this podcast over the years. I think we're really taking a very philosophical approach to this topic today. And we're going to talk about how you and I each relate to the concept of like planning for the future, envisioning the future. So yet again, not a tips and tricks for how to use your bullet journal or your Google calendar, much more about like, how do we think about the future? And I wanted to start with this.

4:33Sarah Powers: As I was planning this episode, I was thinking this has to be a rather modern invention. the idea of planning for the future at all. And by modern, I mean, what, since like the invention of lifesaving medical interventions and vaccines and like modern life, like when, when life was so precarious, just day to day that living through a day or raising a child through their fifth birthday, let alone their 18th birthday was so not a given. I just wonder if the entire industrial complex around envisioning for the future is rather new. Do you have any? You're such a good, like, I don't know, a student of society and culture.

5:19Sarah Powers: Do you have any thoughts?

5:19Meagan Francis: I think there's a lot of industrial complexes that are happening right now that are new. So I would say the monetization and professionalization of future casting, of thinking about our plans and dreams is new. but I don't think the idea of individuals plotting out a course and they're having a vision is new. Does that make sense? Like you would have, because even if you weren't sure you're going to live through the week, um, and, and it's not even that every time throughout history, that's been the case for everybody either. There's always been a rather long period of time in the middle of one's life.

6:03Meagan Francis: So let's say get through those first precarious five years of childhood. Um, you know, your chances are looking pretty good until something takes you out at 45. So you still would have had a nice long window in there to plan. It just, it probably looks really different. And I don't think there were probably guided journals or life coaches. Like those things didn't exist. But I do think since the beginning of recorded history, there are examples of people planning for the future, thinking about the future, what they want, and just probably looked really different. Yeah.

6:40Sarah Powers: And the word that came to mind when you were talking is aspire. People, as a human race, we kind of are built to hope and dream and aspire, even if in different times that looked different or perhaps someone's lived experience was so limited that they weren't even sure what they were aspiring toward, but that there was something that they would work toward. And, um, I don't know why little house on the prairie time period is like stuck in my head of like, what, like if you were Caroline Ingalls, you didn't know that you were going to pick up and move again after like another fire or like a bad winter, but you would still have aspirations for your children, for your home, for your whatever.

7:24Meagan Francis: And otherwise, why would anyone have done it? Like, why would there have been exploration? Why would there have been pioneers? Why would there have been? Now, you could also say, well, that led to a whole lot of problems and that the push toward always seeking, always exploring, always like, you know, conquering new worlds or whatever.

7:44Sarah Powers: Never enoughness kind of.

7:45Meagan Francis: Never enoughness has led to issues, but it's kind of And I would also say there was a time where that was not done, perhaps with quite such a personal lens as it is now. I mean, obviously, there have always been people who are in it for their own glory. But I think there may have at one point been a little more focus on like leaving things for your children and your children's children to inherit. And now I do think we're just a, just a more me focused, um, group time that we're in. Um, but either way, I still think the seeking has been there. The aspiring has, has been there all along. It's very human.

8:26Meagan Francis: Yeah. Yeah. All right.

8:28Sarah Powers: Well, uh, anyone who knows us will have figured out that you and I are probably very different in how we think about the future, aspire, plan, dream about the future, which will make today's conversation all the more interesting. So let's start with what are some of the traps we each fall into again and again, the lessons we keep on learning when it comes for envisioning for the future, planning for the future. So what for you are those lessons you're still learning? And this could be any kind of future planning. It could be like really big picture, like where, how you want to spend your retirement and your old age, or it could be like, you want to write a book in the next year and you're going to plan for that goal.

9:10Sarah Powers: In either case, what are those lessons that Megan has to keep on learning?

9:14Meagan Francis: This is so funny because I find that I can be a little bit of a contradiction in that I actually can be really good at getting a short term project done. So it's not like I live up in the clouds all the time and I never like I can't get started on anything. I wouldn't say that's it. I am more focused toward future. I am often thinking about the big picture sometimes to my detriment. And I also have extreme time optimism, which we've talked about before, where I forget sometimes that like, actually, I can't do all of these things at the same time. Like that is something that is a lesson learned over and over.

9:56Meagan Francis: But what I'm finding is that I can also be really good at getting the thing I want to do right now done. So sometimes what that does is it actually cuts away at my bigger goals by accident. So because it's like, oh, I want to write a book. Let's just say this book's in front of me. And I'm only, I'm only using this as an example because I just wrote a book. Okay. So there's this book in front of me and I have to do it. And I'm going to get this, this like big thing, but it's still a small thing inside the bigger picture. I don't stop to ask myself, is that particular project the one that's going to set me up for what I actually want?

10:38Meagan Francis: And I have a vision for what that is. I can see it, but I can't like, I can't always put steps around it or break it down into like, okay, well, if this is the life I want at 70, here are the things I can do over the next 22 plus years to get me there. I'll just do what's in front of me that sounds like a good idea. And then later I'm like, well, now I'm 52. Now I'm 55. Like, and I didn't do the other thing. So there's a weird mix sometimes of like too many good ideas. And I have a really hard time saying, not saying yes to a good idea, even though sometimes I'm now realizing those aren't my good idea.

11:16Sarah Powers: Yeah. Or they're independent of the longer term vision, like you said, which you do have a really clear and exciting idea of, but it's almost like, what's the connection between that and then the more midterm goals?

11:32Meagan Francis: How do you connect the things? The other thing I think happens to me a lot is that, um, I, I get, I'll think that's a really good idea. And then I want someone to do it, but I don't have to be that person. You know, like I don't have to be the, not all good ideas have to be picked up and run with by yours truly. And that's, I know that's been a learning, a learning experience. Um, I do have physical limitations and I don't even mean like the fact that I'm getting older and like, I'm a human being and I can't be ever, you know, I can't do everything, but like, I can't be in two places at once. I'm trying to right now run businesses, you know, four or 500 miles apart from each other.

12:14Meagan Francis: I can't actually do that unless I'm willing to take the trade-offs that come with needing help to do that. And sometimes I am, and sometimes I'm not. So yeah, like I think the bigger question of what kind of life I am trying to build is now, now that the sky really does feel like the limit because my kids are mostly out of the house and things are just different than they were maybe 10 or 15 years ago. I have to be really careful. I think when my kids were younger, not that many opportunities that I could actually take were coming my way. There was a lot of opportunities, but I couldn't say yes to 90 % of them because of the stage of life I was in.

12:56Meagan Francis: Now I can say yes to almost anything, but that doesn't. And the temptation for me is, is to do that just to say yes, yes, yes. And to then just think, well, it'll all work out, but what it'll do actually is mean I'm running around doing things. Maybe I don't really care about. And I have to, I'm just in a place now where I'm realizing if for me to get from here to there, I need to like be on a path to there, wherever there is. Um, okay. One other thing that's wrong with me, I'll throw this out. Um, one other challenge, let's reword that one other challenge that I encounter and lesson I'm learning is that I can really envision many different ways that my life could go and that I would really dig.

13:38Meagan Francis: So every time I read a book that's in a setting that I think is great, I will find myself fantasizing about what that life would be like. And it could be literally anything from, you know, living in another country to living in a big city to living off the grid, like anything. And I get my, I find myself going down that path of, of almost feeling discontented with where I think I'm actually headed, which is funny because at this juncture, I really could do anything. There's no reason for me to feel discontent because I'm not locked into anything. But I think the discontentment actually comes from knowing I can't do all of those things.

14:14Meagan Francis: Like I can't live all of those lives. So all a lot of things happening at this age and stage that I'm at.

14:21Sarah Powers: Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. You said when we took listener questions, I don't remember two or three episodes ago now, and you were answering a listener question about someone in a kind of a career quandary and you articulated it so well when you're like, is this an idea? Is this a good idea, but it doesn't necessarily have to be me. Is this do I need some kind of an idea, but this isn't it? I'm just an itchy for an idea. Or is this the one that I absolutely can't put down? And anyway, that's not exactly related, But it was so clarifying, I think, I imagine for that listener and even for me of sorting through that those that kind of like possibilities overwhelm and just letting go of not all the ideas need to be done by you and not all the ideas need to be done now, etc.

15:12Meagan Francis: Something I'm still learning.

15:15Sarah Powers: OK, so what am I still learning over and over again? Um, I think in terms of future casting, I'm very prone to thinking rather small. In other words, my idea of thinking about the future can sometimes be comically limited to what's in front of me right now. Like I, I assume the tomorrow, well tomorrow or that, like, I will be in this house with these kids. Like it's really, it is actually sometimes hard for me to actually even broaden the, the scope of my future casting. And then related to that, I think a trap I fall into, and this would be more for your mid range planning. Um, not, not like 25 years down the road is I will often wait for the universe to provide some concrete thing.

16:03Sarah Powers: Let's say, for example, it's that my husband has to go on a business trip to New York city in next spring. And it's like, okay, well that was delivered to us from the universe. And then I can be very, very good at coming up with creative ways to backfill the, this, uh, this thing from the universe and turn that into a cool plan, a cool idea, another trip. Oh, let's go there. Or let's, um, let's do this while the kids are on their school trip. But really that's a rather passive way to future cast, right? Because I'm, I'm sort of working with what I've been given. Um, so I can have a lot of trouble with the truly blank slate nature of no, no, no, like you, here's your magic wand.

16:48Sarah Powers: Anything is possible go. And that is, that continues to be hard for me. Um, and the flip side is that I'm, I'm quite good at making the best of, you know, a sort of existing template and then coming up with future plans that work with that. And that that's a skill of mine. And then another thing, and this is kind of related, but when I do get to future planning, or if there is an opportunity on the horizon, I can kind of jump right to the negative, right to the limitations. Megan, this is like the inverse of you. We've talked about this. Yeah, this is the inverse of your optimism. Mine can be, you know, instead of a real can-do attitude, I can have a real can't-do attitude sometimes.

17:30Sarah Powers: And obviously, this is not great for future casting because it just narrows the scope so much and so soon that it doesn't allow for that kind of like, well, what about this? And what about this? And you've been so helpful to me as a business partner in this regard. Actually recently, Brian and I were planning, well, I was planning a trip. It was a quick trip and I wanted Brian to come with me, but there were a lot of logistical hurdles involving like who was going to watch the children and this and that. And I did kind of push through the can't do attitude because I really wanted him there with me.

18:05Sarah Powers: It was at my grandmother's memorial. And it was a good reminder that like that doesn't serve me to like to let the to let the hassle and the limitations kind of close off the future possibilities right away is not serving me. So maybe I am growing a little bit in this area. Yeah.

18:24Meagan Francis: Well, I, yes, I can see that. And I also think there's a happy medium here, right? Because like if you're on the opposite side and like me, I'm like, well, there's, that's figureoutable. Like that's, there's always a solution. There's always a solution for everything. The question really becomes, do I, is the solution worth it? Yeah. Yeah. So for you, for example, lining up childcare or whatever logistical hurdles in that case, those were worth it. I think sometimes on the flip side of what you're describing, I tend to jump to like, well, we can figure that out. We'll just blah, blah, blah. And we'll blah, blah, blah.

19:00Meagan Francis: And then later I'm thinking this isn't even fun because now it's just work to make this thing happen that I was momentarily excited about. So there's probably a place in the middle.

19:08Sarah Powers: I think so. And I think you and I have probably helped each other in that regard. I can be good at drawing one's attention to those real, those, those real considerations. And you are really great at helping me, reminding me that everything is figureoutable.

19:24Meagan Francis: I remember hearing a guy speak at a conference back in the, remember those conferences back in the day? Um, gosh, I know his name was John and I cannot think of his last name. He has written a whole bunch of books. Oh my gosh. Doesn't matter. Anyway, he, he said something like his wife is a how person and he realized that what, and he's an ideal, like an idea generator. Um, so let's just say his wife is you and, um, I'm him. Acuff, John Acuff. That's his name.

19:52Sarah Powers: Oh, yes. I remember that name.

19:53Meagan Francis: Yeah. And he said he realized he kept getting really deflated when he would go to his wife with an idea. And he realized it's because what he really wanted was a wow person. And she was a how person like she go. OK, great idea. But anyway, how is this going to work? Because this sounds like a big pain in the butt. And he was like, oh, no, really, what I want you to do is just be like, wow, what a great idea. And I thought that that's such an interesting way to like frame it. If you have someone in your life who is a how person and what you really need is a wow person. You either need to find a new person to run, not to marry, but just to run the initial idea past or, you know, go into business with you change the person or you change the expectation.

20:39Meagan Francis: Maybe just tell them actually what I want right now is a wow, not a how.

20:42Sarah Powers: Yeah, I love that. I love that. Um, the final little, uh, trap I keep falling into the whole, I keep falling into that I'm still learning. Um, is that let's say I do have something big and exciting on the horizon or something I want to work toward, um, or a future idea. It can feel so far away that I can get a little lost in the fantasy of what that thing will be like. Maybe it's a trip. Maybe it's a, but it's not happening today, right? It's somewhere off in the future. and I can sort of, this is maybe what you were saying about the middle ground. I can sort of get stuck in the idealization and the fantasy of how great that thing will be and forget that there are little things I could be doing along the way, little breadcrumbs I could be leaving to, to get closer to whatever that thing is.

21:33Sarah Powers: I don't know if that makes sense, but I can, I will, what often will happen is that the day will arrive the trip or the event. Um, and I will have had these great ideas along the way of what I was going to do, how I was going to make it special. And then I kind of forgot to, I forgot to lay the groundwork. Yeah. So that is a little bit of like a long-term, medium-term, short-term. And sometimes I think it's a perfectionism trap for me. Like I, if I start to do the work now, if I start to look for the dress or, you know, shop online, it means it's real. And we're actually going to have to start narrowing down the infinite possibilities.

22:08Sarah Powers: Whereas if I, if I stay in fantasy mode of how fun that's going to be, um, I don't, you know, I don't have to, I don't have to narrow the possibility. So it's a little bit of like a, um, like a black and white, it's a procrastination, I think. And sometimes it's a little bit of perfectionism.

22:23Meagan Francis: I think this is really interesting because it shows you the ways that we, and I feel like this is something that we, um, have, we come back to again and again on this show, we contain multitudes and we are not binary. So you are not a Sarah type and I'm a Megan type. We're both individual people who are who we are. And so when you say that, it surprises me a little bit only because you're so good at implementation. Yeah. But maybe there's like a middle step that so just like I was saying, I'm actually quite good at getting a small project done and then realizing that project didn't actually move me toward this vision that I'm also equally good at doing.

23:00Meagan Francis: Yeah. It's almost like that in reverse. You know what I mean? Like you can be good at things on both ends, but you're missing the connector piece.

23:07Sarah Powers: I think you're exactly right. And I think we do. This is where we kind of both get exist in this middle place. I'll just give a recent example. I am currently, as we record this, I had this 10 day period where two of my three kids are on school trips for 10 days. That's a long time. And my third kid is home, but he has his own car and transportation. So my mom duties were going to be reduced by like 90%, not just like 66%, but like truly, which for many moms who spent almost weren't even there. Yes. And I've known about this for many months because it's been on the calendar. And I have thought in my mind, Oh my gosh, like, what am I going to do with that time?

23:45Sarah Powers: Am I going to catch up with all my old friends? Am I going to go for walks on the beach every day? Am I going to take a solo road trip? Like, so those possibilities, that possibilities thinking is where I can be very like, that's where the fantasy is. And then the time gets closer and it's, it's fine. We're recording this kind of at the end of that 10 days. And it's actually been lovely. And I did take a spontaneous road trip with my 17 year old and I've gotten a lot of house stuff done, but like really the time arrived and I was like, or I'm just going to do laundry and wipe down the counters and work a little bit and go for a walk.

24:17Sarah Powers: Like I always do. And there's this little feeling of like, Oh, but I had it, I had it built up to be this thing. And then I didn't do, I didn't take any steps to make that thing a reality. Does that, I don't, maybe that gives an example.

24:30Meagan Francis: Yeah, no, it totally does. And I just think it's interesting that, I just think it's interesting that you and I both have our own versions of that. I will also say though, I think maybe there was value in just thinking through all the things that could happen and then not moving. You did something else. You know what I mean? So there's value in that. And maybe next time you're faced with a 90 % off parenting situation, you'll act on one of those other ideas. It just wasn't time this time. All right.

25:04Sarah Powers: Well, let's think about some ways in which this stage of our life, midlife, midlife lady life has started to change or evolve the way we think about the future. I mean, Obviously, we are older than we once was. And you mentioned like time and physical limitations are more of a reality. So how how do you find yourself planning or envisioning the future differently in your mid to late 40s than maybe 15 or 20 years ago? Yeah.

25:32Meagan Francis: So it's interesting for me because I feel like I'm in this place where my ideas about things have both expanded and perhaps constricted a bit, restricted a bit. So on the one hand, on the expansive side, it's really nice at my age to now be able to look back to like my young adulthood, let's say 25 years ago and say, wow, I've already done so much. Like in 25 years, I did so much. I lived in so many places and with little kids, you know, I raised a family. I've had different kinds of work, like lots of different kinds of work. I've traveled quite a bit, although not the kind of traveling necessarily that I would have envisioned for myself.

26:15Meagan Francis: I've been around a lot of places. I've met a lot of people. I've had a lot of experiences. And so I now I'm coming into my, you know, I'm coming to the, say that 50 year mark and just a couple of years for me with like, oh, okay. So gosh, there's a lot I can still do. Like I can still do so many things. And I don't feel, I feel like when I was in my early twenties, it just kind of felt like if I didn't get it all done by 30, it was like game over. Nevermind. What's the point? You know, what, will I even be alive after 30? And now I can just see it very differently. I can just see how nothing really locks you in.

26:54You're, you're still, there's so many, um, none of your choices, I should say,

27:00Meagan Francis: lock you in. It's more like the world could change a little bit. There's always going to be external factors that are going to mean that certain things just don't play out when you want them to, or maybe some things are off limits, but then new possibilities open up. So I guess I feel pretty expansive based on this, the reality I've lived for the last two and a half decades, or 30, 30 years even. I guess on the flip side of that, I'm also very aware that this next 30 year window I'm going into is sort of it. So it's like, um, not that I won't be alive past my late seventies, but you know, you do start to run into limitations and there will be health issues and physical abilities and things like that, that will start to play, that will start to become a factor more and more and more.

27:52Meagan Francis: And also just stuff like, I don't know that I'll want to do anymore. I feel like at 20, I felt like such a blank slate. like I could do this or that or that or that or that. And I am on, I am up for any of it. And now I'm sort of like, there's a lot of things I could still do, some of which I don't think I'm going to want to and others I maybe never really did want to. And so I don't know. It's like the window is opening and closing at the same time. It's kind of an interesting middle place to be.

28:19Sarah Powers: Do you feel like, cause you've said in the past that that closing of doors and that remove, like that removing of a possibility off the table has always been kind of hard for you. Like you don't like to you don't like to admit or acknowledge that something couldn't happen. You always like to have it as a possibility. Is it also a little freeing in a way to just sort of accept that there are some things that it just might not happen?

28:44Meagan Francis: Yes, because I think now that like I was saying before and yeah, the whole like having doors closed or opportunities limited. historically has been a real struggle for me. I'm starting to see it as a gift because now that I've come into almost the second young adulthood where, you know, I became a mom so young that, and it is also funny because now I look back to when I just had Jacob as a 20 year

29:09Sarah Powers: old and I'm like, I still could have done like literally anything I wanted to at that point.

29:13Meagan Francis: I truly could have moved anywhere I wanted with one baby in tow. Like I, it wasn't for a lot of reasons that wouldn't have made a lot of sense to, and I'm glad I didn't, but like my options weren't quite as limited as I think I thought they were at the time. And now maybe my options aren't quite as open as I would have liked to think they were. And I am realizing that the bigger you dream and the more you take on the more other things, just like, that's just how it is. That's just the reality of life. If I decide that the thing I really want more than anything in the world, let's say when Clara is out and well and truly gone is to live in a little, you know, cabin in the woods way up north someplace.

29:54Meagan Francis: That is a fantastic life that I could get very excited about, but it's not really, um, it doesn't work with this other vision of a life that I could also be equally excited about. So sometimes having someone else tell me like, no, this is what you're doing or like having a job or something, some other limiting factor for me can be very freeing. Just the way like having a one thing I'm going to write a book about or a blog about or whatever is also for me very freeing because I there's a lot of room to be creative within that.

30:29Sarah Powers: Yeah, that's kind of what I was speaking to earlier is that that's where my future casting strength lies is when when I have a few limitations, then I can really make the most of future planning. It's when I don't that that's a struggle because you're speaking to it right now. It is there's something overwhelming about the limitless possibilities. Yeah.

30:50Meagan Francis: And I guess for you, the challenge would be not forgetting that you still have a lot of control over what those limiting factors are. So you can decide the limiting factors. It doesn't have to be passively handed to you. Right. Exactly. Right.

31:05Sarah Powers: I agree with a lot of what you said in terms of both expanding and limiting a little bit as we as we look toward 50. I was just not very good at long term envisioning at all as a young adult because I just tended to focus on what was in front of me. And that was effective for me in a lot of ways. So I was good at planning out a school year or a vacation or a summer, but I wasn't often looking that far forward. So one of the biggest ways that midlife has evolved me is that I do actually, I think more in 10 and 15 and 20 and 25 year imaginings than I used to, like a lot more, which is cool. Actually.

31:45Sarah Powers: I mean, I enjoy it. I find myself noticing and observing and kind of taking mental notes about the people of my parents' generation, including my, because we do live close by to my parents and we, we know quite a few people in that generation. And it's not like I'm like, Oh, I want to do that. Or I don't want to do that, but I'm paying attention in a much, in a much more, um, attentive way than I used to. And just in terms of not so much the, the, I don't know, the brass tacks of where I want to live and how much money I hope to heaven where I want to travel. It's more like, what do I want in my life?

32:24Sarah Powers: Uh, 25 years from now, like a lot of friendship, a lot of eating out at restaurants, a lot of fulfilling travel, a lot of intellectual, um, I don't know, like stimulation. Um, and so that is new for me to be thinking in terms of like, what are the, the kind of core elements that I want in my life when I'm 65 or 70 or 75. I just never really, when I was 25, I was not thinking, what do I want as part of my life when I'm 45?

32:53Meagan Francis: But at 45, I'm absolutely thinking and noticing and taking notes and really

32:58Sarah Powers: like admiring the generation above me as I look around. So it's aspirational, which is that word we came back to in the beginning.

33:07Meagan Francis: I have two thoughts about this. One is that I think the lived experience is what helps you look, think that way. Like seeing how 25 years passed without you having to do anything besides get up and keep breathing, you know, um, the time went by since you were 20. And so now you can see that that will happen again. And that being intentional can help you put those big rocks, I guess, in place before the little stuff kind of crowds in around it before the sand pours in and crowds us out. And then I also think that's what's so wise about what you're saying is that you've almost like grown past the idea that this is place-based in some way that there's like a location.

33:52Meagan Francis: I think that's the, when you're young, I think that's the thing you jump to the quickest. And I wouldn't even say just when you're young. I mean, I would say I was like this well into my thirties thinking maybe even into my forties, like thinking there's another place where all those things are.

34:08Sarah Powers: And if I can just house, sometimes it's the, yeah,

34:10Meagan Francis: like a type of, or a job, you know, whatever it is, if I can just get to that place, that physical place, that physical house into that job, whatever, all of those other things will fill in around it. I'll be physically active. I'll have intellectual friends. I'll, you know, eat out at restaurants a lot, whatever it is. And I look around and I'm like, okay, but I've lived in this small town for now 17 years, mostly I would say by choice. It's not like, I mean, there's been options along the way I could have moved at different points. And all of the things that are important to me have been available to me here the whole time.

34:47Meagan Francis: I just, I haven't always taken advantage of them for a variety of reasons. And there's lots of reasons why at some point this might not be the place I want to stay anyway, but like all of those things were here. I didn't need to move. And I, and I didn't need to like fetishize the place. Yeah. Yeah. I think this is easy to do.

35:04Sarah Powers: Yeah. I agree. I agree. Okay. Well, here's a fun one. Um, I'm curious if you have ever, or would you ever consult any of the following when you're thinking about your future planning, um, a coach, a counselor, a spiritual advisor, a psychic, maybe a tea leaf or tarot or palm reader, something like a like a vision board guided vision boarding or guided meditation or retreat like there's so many like we talked about at the beginning we have definitely professionalized this idea of envisioning and planning for our ideal future I just want us both to talk about like how we feel about those things have we ever would we ever or do any of those things appeal to us more than the others that I mentioned.

35:54Sarah Powers: So you go first. Okay.

35:56Meagan Francis: Well, um, I don't think I've ever actually consulted a life coach. I've never gone to a counselor for this kind of thing. I think I've only gone to counselors when I'm in crisis mode and it's usually very short lived. It doesn't, you know, it's not something that I continue to do in that, like help me figure my future out kind of a thing. Um, I'm very intrigued by tea leaf reading for, you know, lots of obvious reasons. I've, I've led retreats where the purpose was to kind of help work through blocks. Although it's not been like the purpose of this retreat is to figure out your, your future, but that's been part of it.

36:35Meagan Francis: Right. Yeah. And I've done vision boarding as part of that. And I think those are all great tools. Um, I've never hired, I think my, I tend to jump right to the, like, why would I hire someone else to do something that I can do for myself thing, which I think is sometimes a limited thought because just because I could doesn't mean I do. And there's a lot of value, I think, in having guidance with that kind of thing sometimes. So like I've done vision boards and I've led retreats where there are vision boards, but like, I can't remember a time I've ever hired someone to help me make a vision board.

37:14Meagan Francis: This is an example. I want to talk about tarot a little bit because of all of the things that all of those things that I've never done, um, that I can be very skeptical about. I've actually had my tarot read probably half a dozen times. Um, and I have found it very useful except the time I had it done in Vegas, because that felt to me, honestly, like this lady was trying to, she, it felt very like Zorba telling your future. Like it was much more leaning into that energy. And I don't actually, that's not my thing. I'm not interested in fortune telling and I'm not interested in divination. Like that kind of a thing is not for me.

37:55Meagan Francis: I think a really skilled tarot card reader who's doing it in the way that, at least the way that appeals to me, they're really, it's really a self-analysis tool, kind of the way like the Enneagram would be. So they're not pretending to like read your future. That's not what it's about. It's more like, okay, here's this card. What does this card say to you about where you are in your life right now? And so in that way, it doesn't matter what card comes up. Literally could be any card because every single card, it has a meaning. And then you look at it and you say, okay, so it's not like, I don't think anyway, that the claim is, oh, this card got pulled out of the deck because this is the one, the spirits want in your hands.

38:42Meagan Francis: It's more like, okay, here's the one that happened to be at the top of the pile. It means X, Y, and Z. What does that mean to you? How do you interpret that?

38:49Sarah Powers: And what's it bringing up for you? Yeah.

38:51Meagan Francis: And so you're just really telling a story about where you are in life and where you want to be headed. And then a skilled tarot reader is just helping you interpret what your intuition is telling you anyway. So the cards are, there's nothing magical about the cards they're not you know they're not they don't possess any powers in my opinion I think there's people who treat it all kinds of different ways and the cards themselves can look kind of scary sometimes and like I know tarot can be super loaded I just personally have removed all of that kind of energy from it for myself and so when I've done it I have felt like it's been nice, like useful, like kind of like a long journaling session.

39:35Meagan Francis: I have a memory of doing one with my sister. I think this was the first time we did it. And it was, we went to the Stratford festival in Canada, which is like a town that has been taken over by theater, essentially, modeled after Stratford on the Avon and in England. And it's like a big Shakespeare festival, but it's like the whole town basically is on board. Right. So that we stayed in this Airbnb or not Airbnb. This was before Airbnb. This was like, it was just a bed and breakfast. And the husband wife team who ran it were like, just imagine the nicest, nerdiest Canadian couple who also have a Victorian bed and breakfast, but edit like he edited like a poetry magazine.

40:17Meagan Francis: Well, you know, okay.

40:18Sarah Powers: I feel like these are your people, Sarah, like maybe you want to be their neighbors.

40:22Meagan Francis: So they, the guy, um, read our tarot and it was kind of amazing, not because he is a psychic, but because he just, he would say, well, what do you think about that? And so we both did it. We each had a 90 minute session and then we took notes for each other. So we sat in on each other's sessions and like filled journals. And now like my sister actually found hers not too long ago. And we looked through it. It was like, this is amazing. So it was my handwriting, like feverishly writing down all the things that were coming up for her as she was reading this. And I just think he was really good at people.

41:02Sarah Powers: Yes.

41:03Meagan Francis: Yes. That's really what it was. He was a good listener and he was good at reading the room and he was good at like noticing when something he said made her sit up a little straighter or me and then just leading through that. So I thought it was pretty valuable and actually pretty affirming in a lot of ways when we, when we did that, but that doesn't, that is not the same thing in my, in my opinion, as wanting to go see like a psychic or a fortune teller. I don't know. I've talked a lot about this.

41:28Sarah Powers: That is such a cool story. I'm going to start with a little embarrassing revelation, which is I am like legitimately scared of the whole idea of psychic reading specifically, specifically going to see a psychic.

41:43Meagan Francis: I have people in my life who have done it.

41:46Sarah Powers: And when they have those stories, I don't know if you've ever like been at a dinner party when someone tells you like a crazy experience, going to see a psychic and what they said, I wouldn't want, no, I don't

41:55Meagan Francis: want to hear about that.

41:56Sarah Powers: And I think with that, I mean, obviously I don't, I don't have any, not obviously, but I don't have any judgment about anybody doing it. And I don't have anything against it. And I'm not even sure what I believe about those people's intuitive psychic powers. It's more that like I'm half scared that it would be absolutely like eerily accurate or whatever.

42:19Meagan Francis: You don't want to know.

42:20Sarah Powers: I don't want to know. And the other half of me is scared. It would be like codependently cringy where I would be like, yay, like, thank you. That was so helpful. Do you know what I mean? Like really? Yes. It's equally terrifying. Either it would be bad and I would somehow be sucked into the the fallacy that this is like helpful and somehow like complicit in this charade. Or it would be so good that it would call into question all the things I'm not I'm not sure about, about how the world works and like how anyway. So it's a little confession that like I think a lot of people do it just for fun.

42:57Sarah Powers: Like, let's just go get a psychic reading and just like just for kicks. And that to me sounds terrifying. I don't know. And I, I don't know if I'm alone in that, but, um, um, I don't know that like,

43:09Meagan Francis: I'm, I'm not sure that I'm with you on the like cringe aspect of being uncomfortable because you have to be like, wow, great. Maybe, maybe not. But the part about just not wanting to know, it reminds me of how some people really want to have encounters with ghosts.

43:24Sarah Powers: Yeah. And I'm like,

43:25Meagan Francis: no, thank you.

43:26Sarah Powers: Yeah.

43:27Meagan Francis: If there are, if there are ghosts around me and, and I do, I am very open to a lot of spiritual ideas that I don't even think have to, what's the word I'm looking for? Like, I don't think they have to all be mutually exclusive either. Like, I don't think there's anything about a belief in, just to use the example of like the Judeo-Christian God, and even a belief in Christianity does not have to, in my opinion, discount ghosts walking around. Like in my mind, all of those things could be and likely in some ways are. I just don't want to see them. If there's ghosts around, no, thank you. Even if it was like, even if it was like a benevolent ghost, no, thanks.

44:14Meagan Francis: Not into it. So that's to me, the psychic thing. Like, I don't want you person to be making contact on my behalf with another realm plane.

44:25Sarah Powers: Yeah.

44:26Meagan Francis: No, thanks. Yeah.

44:28Sarah Powers: it makes me feel nervous. And I kind of feel a little envious of the people who are able to just like do it kind of for the, like for the experience, for the fun. Um, and so no, I have, that's a pass for me at this point. Um, I'm going to switch to the total other end of the spectrum. And I want to mention our business coach, Zach, who on the podcast, we have mentioned many a time. We worked with him for a couple of years.

44:52Meagan Francis: I kind of forgot that we did do something with him that was similar to like a vision. Oh yeah. I mean, it wasn't a visual, it wasn't a visual vision board,

44:59Sarah Powers: but I will, I want to tell the story of our visioning exercise because Zach comes from a very entrepreneurial, like, you know, like I'm almost a management consultant style business coach. Like I, so it's, I wouldn't describe him initially as like a super touchy feely approach. And I think you can have, I think both are great, but he was really in there with us with goals and numbers and all these things when we were growing our business. And he's just a good human. And we really benefited so much from his guidance when we were growing our business. But I say all that to say when we did a visioning exercise, that wasn't like, I mean, would you agree?

45:37Sarah Powers: That wasn't the overarching vibe of his approach. It was much more like numbers and goals and breaking that down into steps and quarters.

45:44Meagan Francis: I think that's why I didn't even think of it because it didn't feel to me like it was in the same category, but it did bring a lot of stuff up for us that I think helped us so much in planning the next however many years, six years of the business. Right. Because we started with him in 2019 or was it 2018, late 2018, maybe. So like for the majority of the time the mom hour has existed, Zach's influence has been felt. Yeah. I think that's yeah.

46:10Sarah Powers: Yeah. And the vision exercise he had us do, you'll have to like, correct me if I'm wrong here, but we picked a date about five years in the future. And we wrote in the present tense, like essay style, like today is January 27th, right? Wasn't it your birthday? 2020 was my

46:28Meagan Francis: birthday. 2024.

46:30Sarah Powers: It's already passed. Our future has already been realized. Yeah. Cause what it was some, it was five years out.

46:37Meagan Francis: 20. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

46:39Sarah Powers: Um, and then we wrote in the present tense things about our business, but also our kids. So like if I was writing as me and we did it, it was like a co-write, but there were parts that each of us wrote about ourselves, like our own personal role. Like this is how I'm showing up in the business each day. This is how much I'm working. My kids are these ages. Like this is how my work life fits into my other life. We're in a lake house in this place.

47:03Meagan Francis: Yes.

47:04Sarah Powers: And, um, we were both very emotional by the end. Like it, it, we wrote it together. We, something about that, um, using the present tense to tell a story about where you are in the future. If you've never tried that approach either through, I mean, it's not, I don't think it's, it's not proprietary to Zach. In fact, I had encountered it myself in other things, but if, if you haven't done that, it is powerful because you're just writing as if something has been realized. And it's the kind of thing that at different times in my life, Maybe I'd kind of roll my eyes out a little bit, but I mentioned that one because it was very, I think it was like bonding for the two of us.

47:42Sarah Powers: It was energizing. And no, did we, did we live exactly out that exact vision? We did not, but was it still a very powerful exercise to go through? Absolutely.

47:54Meagan Francis: And I would say, I would actually argue that more of it came true than not. I think just having that story on paper that had been written about with such confidence made us make decisions faster because then we were like, oh, well, if this is the vision we're shooting for in 2024, we need to get cracking.

48:12Sarah Powers: Yeah. Yeah.

48:13Meagan Francis: And we didn't know there was going to be a pandemic, you know, like that also kind of screwed things up. But like it just it gave things such a clarity and such a like an urgency isn't even the right word because it didn't feel it didn't feel like nerve wracking. It just felt like, oh, the time is now. Yeah. Let's do this. Yeah.

48:34Sarah Powers: I'll just briefly on on all the other options for getting help with your future casting. I feel like I'm open aside from psychics. I feel like I'm like you. I can be a little bit more like, why would I pay someone to do this that I could do myself in terms of like hiring a coach or going to a workshop or something? That said, I think when when employed at the right time, all those things can be really, really useful. And every time I have shelled out some money or set aside some time, I'm almost always glad I did. Even if you don't get out of it, the thing you thought you would, it's sort of like your tarot experience, the invitation to be introspective and the invitation to look toward the future that we're not doing in our everyday life.

49:23Sarah Powers: It's very hard to just do in your own, like with your own self-discipline. Like it very often is helped by someone from the outside and that could look like lots of different things. So, um, yeah,

49:35Meagan Francis: those kinds of things are really great to do when you're on a vacation or a girl's weekend or something where you're a little outside the ordinary because your brain isn't as such a different, it's like in a more receptive space. Yeah. Yeah.

49:46Sarah Powers: Well, let's finish by talking about what, what things do help us, um, when it comes to planning for the future. I will just share one right off the bat. Um, talking, this sounds so obvious, but talking things through with another human, specifically my spouse is so every time I'm like, Oh, I really needed, like I needed to get outside my own head about stuff. Sometimes until you say something out loud, you don't realize that it's either in some cases too wild or too limited. Um, and that like interplay of having a conversation with another person is hugely helpful for me. And I say that because it's not my natural tendency.

50:30Sarah Powers: It is, I think I can figure everything out inside my own head or on a spreadsheet or in a Google calendar. But just recently, Brian and I were trying to like, it was more of a travel thing. It wasn't like a big life, a big life conundrum, but I was like all wound up about how confusing this summer Chicago week was going to be. And Brian and I just spent like half a day like, well, what about this? Well, what about this? What about this? And that what about this is really, really helpful to me.

51:00Meagan Francis: I love that because for very different reasons, I think you and I are both reticent to talk to other people about our ideas. I think for me, it tends to be an impatience thing. Like, like for your, you're saying I've already got figured out. Like I can do it. You know, I do it myself. And for me, I think it's more like, I don't have time to listen to all the reasons you think it won't work. Or like, I don't have, like, I just, I have too much on the air, you know, too much I'm juggling. And that's not true. That's a story I tell that is absolutely not true. I 100 % have time to sit down at the end of the evening and spend an hour talking to my husband about stuff.

51:38Meagan Francis: And I don't always love everything he says. That's the other thing. Sometimes I think I'm almost, um, pre judging what his response is going to be and thinking It's going to be overly negative or it's going to be, you know, he's going to come up with all these reasons I can't do something. It's going to be taking something away from me. I'm just kind of getting over it because I agree. It is really helpful to have someone who knows you really, really well and is in it for your best interests, you know, and wants to help. And like, even though sometimes I don't love what I hear, most of the time I come away from those conversations feeling calmer.

52:12Meagan Francis: And it's like, I've had to just kind of retrain my brain that I do have time and that this is something valuable to use my time on. So the, the thing that came to mind for me when I was thinking about what does help with all of these tendencies that I have is that it's like almost shockingly small stuff. Like it's very surprising how small of a thing

52:36Sarah Powers: can make a big impact.

52:38Meagan Francis: So for example, I just put together a little fiction group we're meeting tonight after we record this actually a few hours from now, a couple of women in my town, one who came to one of my book signings, the other who came to another book signing. And I know them both. Like they're both people I don't know super well, but I'd like to know better, both a little younger than me. And I know that they both write in some way and they both let it slip that they want to write fiction. And I also want to write fiction. And so I didn't let the moment pass once after like the day after I texted them both and said, Hey, would you like to get together?

53:15Meagan Francis: We want to form a little group. We can just meet the library. And I don't even know what, like, we're just going to meet and, and we're going to write or whatever, you know, like we're, we'll talk about our books. We'll, we'll put something concrete. And now it's been two weeks since we started planning this. And in the last two weeks, I've made so much progress on this project because now there's some energy around it.

53:38Sarah Powers: Yeah.

53:38Meagan Francis: Nothing else changed. I didn't suddenly learn how to be a fiction writer and I didn't suddenly find new time in my schedule that I didn't have before. It was just like, oh, these are people who want to talk about this with me. Ergo, I'm talking about with them. And then I started talking to my friend Amy Clark, who is the Book Gang podcast, and I've known her forever, but she's also working on a piece of fiction. I didn't know that until I like checked in with her about it. Then we started talking about fiction. So anyway, just like the tiniest little thing, like unlock a door.

54:10Sarah Powers: What I love about that too, is that you don't have to know the exact future destination you're working toward to do those small things. In other words, the fiction project you're starting now, I hope it just keeps going and goes perfectly, but like you could end up changing your mind about it or starting a new project or this group could morph into something else. It's a real gift to yourself and to those other people, I would say, to just begin anyway and to do that, to start acting as if without needing to totally know when this proposal is due or what the book's going to be called or all the end goal.

54:52Sarah Powers: I know there's a lot of emphasis given to envisioning the end, and we just talked about that was very useful with Zach. But also in this case, there's a lot of value in just taking one small step and trusting that you're moving in the right direction.

55:07Meagan Francis: Yeah, because I honestly don't even have the experience right now to know what the end would look like. Even if I I mean, I could visualize I could just make it up, but I agree that it doesn't matter what matters. That's like part of the story. But the other part of the story is where you show up on a regular basis and add words to a page. and that's the part sometimes I have a hard time with.

55:31Sarah Powers: Well, I think we all do. I mean, of all personality types, that is by far the hardest part for sure.

55:37Meagan Francis: Right. Is doing the work. Yeah. Yeah. Well, this is a great time to sort of, um, I don't know, set up our next episode actually, because I was going to say the other thing that I like along the lines of small, tiny little small steps. Our next episode is each of us are going to make a five by 50 list. So that is, you know, people make 40 by 40 and 50 by 50 lists where you come up with 40 things you want to do before you turn 40 or 50 things you wanted to do before you turn 50. And that feels like way too many. So we're just doing five.

56:10Sarah Powers: Um, but I've started making my list and it's been so

56:14Meagan Francis: helpful in giving shape to the next two years of my life, two and a half years, two years of my life, two years. I'm almost 48. So I have found it incredibly helpful just to write five things down. Yeah. Yeah.

56:26Sarah Powers: Me too. I mean, you prompted me. Also, I love that we gave each other a short list and a short deadline because this is not like it wasn't like, you know, come up with this bit. It's just like five things. So that will be Tuesday's episode. And actually that that That perfectly brings up one more little concrete tip I was going to offer. And for you, especially because you're at the two year mark. A few years ago, I figured out how to print from my Google calendar a year at a glance, like just to see an entire year without any items on the calendar. In other words, no appointments, no birthdays, but just, just the visual in a landscape on an eight and a half by 11 of an entire year.

57:07Sarah Powers: And, and a few years ago, Brian and I did it for two years. So I want to say that we were at the end of 2022, like around Christmas, new years, and I printed 2023 and 2024. And we just looked at them visually. Um, and as everybody knows, I, that's so helpful for my brain to see, but this was a two year, which for me, that's like a bigger zoom out than I would normally do. And I have this memory of being like, well, maybe we could do a Europe

57:31Meagan Francis: trip in like the summer of 2024, which at that time, in these little squares. Yeah. And I like

57:37Sarah Powers: circled it. And at that time that was 18 months away. And guess what? We did it like, so sometimes and for you, because you are coming up at like that two year mark, like just to be able to see on a two page spread those two years and like, you don't have to get granular, but just like, well, this is the summer that that's probably going to happen. Cause there's only three summers between now and then. So anyway, that's a, that's another tip to just to anytime you can see a year at a glance or two or five, um, it makes it so concrete. And I think that it's a little scary because you're like, Oh my gosh, we only have this many months before this kid graduates or whatever the thing is.

58:13Sarah Powers: So it's a little reality check, but I also think it's such a great open invitation because that time belongs to you and it's not filled with dentist appointments yet. And so it's like very empowering, I think. Yeah.

58:25Meagan Francis: I love that. Um, if you can remember how to do that, I'm sure I can probably figure it out, but you know, me sometimes I need a little tech help.

58:31Sarah Powers: it and send it to you as my gift to you.

58:33Meagan Francis: What a gift.

58:34Sarah Powers: All right. Well, we will be back on Tuesday sharing our five by 50 lists and everybody have a great weekend. We'll talk to you then.

58:42Meagan Francis: Back to you soon.

58:43Sarah Powers: Thanks for listening to the mom hour. Everything we talked about in today's episode is available at themomhour.com. And Hey, while you're there, you can find more than 500 podcast episodes, plus articles, playlists, and resources about motherhood and parenting at every stage.

58:58Meagan Francis: And if you liked today's episode, we'd love it if you would take a minute to share the show with another mom in your life. You can also find us on Instagram at the mom hour, chatting and interacting with listeners between episodes.

59:09Sarah Powers: Thanks for being here, friends. We'll talk to you soon.