What's (Still!) Great About Our Eight: Episode 521

0:00Sarah Powers: Hi, I'm Megan. And I'm Sarah. We're two moms with eight kids between us, and we're the hosts of The Mom Hour. On this show, we're joined by a team of unique mom voices from across the country and in different stages of motherhood to bring you tips, ideas, and encouragement, and to help you feel a little less alone.

0:17Meagan Francis: We all know that motherhood is a lot easier when real moms share honest truths and remind each other that it's all going to be okay.

0:24Sarah Powers: We're not experts. We're parents who've been there.

0:26Meagan Francis: We're not perfect. We're real. Welcome to The Mom Hour. Hi, everyone, and welcome to episode 521 of the Mom Hour. I'm Megan Francis here with Sarah Powers. Hey, Sarah. Hey, Megan. How's it going? It's going good.

0:42Sarah Powers: Happy to talk to you today.

0:43Meagan Francis: I'm happy to talk to you today, and I'm a little sad because today we are doing our very last What's Great About Hour 8 episode.

0:52Sarah Powers: I feel like from here on out, every episode is a little sad. I know. But we'll try to keep it fun at the same time. Just like last week, we talked about grief goes along with the good stuff. And it's like, yeah, we're here for it all. But we won't be a bummer.

1:08Meagan Francis: Well, we, from time to time, like to just catch everybody up on our combined eight kids. And I think these episodes, I feel like sometimes we'll do them a little closer together. Sometimes we do them a little further apart. We've both always been kind of careful about what we share about our kids. And so there have definitely been times when it's like, I can't come up with something great to say about all of my kids. So let's just hold off on this episode. And there's also been times when it's like, I can't share the great things. And so anyway, I feel like this is a good time to be bringing this episode or this kind of episode back because we both have some great things to share about all of our kids, which does not mean that everything is always great all the time.

1:52Meagan Francis: No, not at all.

1:54Sarah Powers: I think that's like a really good disclaimer is these episodes are meant to kind of celebrate where they are in their growing up, which literally yours are men.

2:06Meagan Francis: Many of them.

2:07Sarah Powers: It is not meant to say that these eight individuals are bopping along. We got that phrase from one of our listeners at one point. there are kids in this group of eight who are not just bopping along easily right now who might be having struggles and we can tell you that and also tell you that that's not the purpose of these episodes we're celebrating them today um at least i'm always very aware that my kids may choose to listen to this someday or someone may tell them that they listened to it so we are purposely not giving you the whole story today we are choosing to celebrate what's great about the eight that we have.

2:42Meagan Francis: You know, I just wrote a post from my sub stack not too long ago. And I was saying something like, um, talking about going through hard times with your kids. And that's not what this episode is about. Actually, it's about sort of not the opposite of that, but like, it, that's not what it's about. But what I was saying is that I'm always hesitant. Like if someone that I don't know very well, and you know, we talked about this in the last episode too, like why we don't always share the hard stuff as it's happening. Because I could see it being like, okay, if I share this hard thing with you and you've gone through something that seems harder, you might be inclined to sort of dismiss what I'm going through because it's not

3:23Sarah Powers: that hard.

3:24Meagan Francis: Or if it's worse than anything you've been through, you might be inclined to think, woo, like, glad I didn't do that. Like, glad that never happened to my kid. And either of those responses would be premature.

3:38Sarah Powers: Yes. I read that. I read that post that you wrote and I thought that was such a good way to put it. It's like, if I tell you, yes, exactly that. I could tell you that there's this big thing happening with my kid and you, you can't help, but sort of compare that to your own experience. And either, like you said, it's either worse than what you've gone through or not as bad as what you've gone through. And in either case, it's not the whole story. Right.

4:04Meagan Francis: It's not the whole story. So I guess on the flip side of that, when we share things that are good about our kids, it's like, keep that also in mind. Like if yours aren't doing great, um, in that same way, like you don't know that they won't be soon. It's premature to, I guess, to have that say anything about you or your family.

4:22Sarah Powers: So all that said, I think this is a really

4:25Meagan Francis: fun time to be doing this because I do have three grown adults who are out of the house and one who's like half out of the house and then another one who's pretty close and yours are really speeding up too. So like the things that we'll talk about in this version of what's great about our eight is so different than the things we might've talked about the first time we did this like five years ago or however long ago it was.

4:47Sarah Powers: I also love these because we don't, as we've said on the podcast, we don't talk about our kids with each other privately, constantly. Sometimes we do, we'll tell a story or we'll complain about this kid or we'll compare notes about a certain age or stage, but often will go a very long time. Like, especially with your older kids, I'd be like, wait, where is Will living again? And like, what is that? So this is fun for us too, because it's a lot of, it's a lot of darn kids to get through. And so at the end of this conversation as friends, we will be caught up on each other's kids, which is cool.

5:18Sarah Powers: Which I love. Yeah.

5:19Meagan Francis: Well, I'm going to start with my oldest because that's, um, it's because it makes it convenient for us to go in, in that order. I think we're both going oldest to youngest.

5:28Sarah Powers: I saw that in the outline and then I just copied you. I was like, what order should I go?

5:32Meagan Francis: I was going to jump around and then I was like, that's too much work. I, you know, I have to keep track somehow. So, okay. Let's think of this as like the stair stepping. We're going from the top of the stairs down. So I'll talk about Jacob first. Um, if I, I just want to take a minute to just acknowledge how far my oldest kid has come. Um, he is no longer a kid. He is a grown man. And there have, he is 27. And there have been times when I've been very tempted over the past, let's say five ish years with him. And, you know, around the same with Isaac to be like, did you know at your age, I had four children.

6:13Meagan Francis: Did you know at your age, I was doing this and that. And it's so hard for me sometimes not to do that. Um, and I've had to remind myself that is irrelevant. It doesn't matter what I was doing at that age. A, I also tend to forget how much I struggled in my early twenties and how much of that was sort of covered by the fact that I still was producing children and raising them and doing adult adjacent, like very adult things, but not with any idea of what I was doing. So that's, I guess, I was still spoiling.

6:45Sarah Powers: Your brain wasn't still developing and you weren't having those young adult struggles. They were just happening and you were changing diapers.

6:52Meagan Francis: Right. And I was flailing plenty. So Jacob definitely has done his a fair amount of flailing, which he would gladly admit to if you talked and asked him about it. But he has really had just I don't even know how to a banner year. It's hard to believe it's only been a year because it it feels like it's been a lot longer. But basically the story is that about a year, well, a year and a half ago now, he, after having tried to go to school a couple of times, it didn't really work out. He's moved all around. He's lived at home. He's lived out of the home. He enrolled in a community college that is not near here.

7:32Meagan Francis: So not in our community. I kind of convinced him to do that. There is a community college near here. It's fine. But I just thought this place had more to offer him. and it wasn't home. You know, it was like living in dorms and like living in a city, like not a huge city, but still a city that's not the town that he went to high school in. It just felt like more like a thing. So he went there in winter of 2024. Yeah, so winter semester, not this last winter semester, but the year before. And has just taken advantage of every opportunity, everything there is to do. I think the last time we did one of these, he was kind of early in that journey.

8:14Meagan Francis: So he was starting to this time last year.

8:16Sarah Powers: Yeah.

8:16Meagan Francis: Yep. But it's just been, he's just built on that and built on that and built on that. So like last time we were up there visiting, he had a photo in an art gallery that he'd won, you know, an honorable mention and got it in this juried student thing. He just went to Japan. So he spent, um, I think it was 10 days, mostly in Tokyo and did this just kind of like, very, um, it just required a lot for him to get the money together, get all the things. I would say his executive functioning has not always been the sharpest. It's not always been his strongest suit. And there was a lot of details that had to go into doing that while also working, while also managing his school schedule, while also just growing up as a person a lot.

9:06And, um,

9:08Meagan Francis: And I just like feel like he's more empathetic and more understanding of people around him. There's just been big strides in the last year or so, year and a half or so. And he just got to go to Japan. So that was really fun. He was able to text while he was there. And we got lots of updates and, you know, lots of pictures. And I can't wait to see him and have him tell us about it. But there were, I'm just going to say, there have been times over the last five to seven years that I would not have thought, he was going to be able to get his life together enough to be thriving. And he really is. So I guess the takeaway is just like, um, you know, there's something more than what you're in the moment you're in with your kid.

9:51Meagan Francis: And if there's some real struggle that does not mean there is no hope, like whatever version of your kid is, uh, manifesting right now, they're still changing. They're still growing. And so are you. And so you just don't know what's on the other side of that. Yeah. Oh, that makes me so happy.

10:11Sarah Powers: I want to hear about Japan as well. I feel like that's a that's a hot place to go lately.

10:15Meagan Francis: I'm hearing more and more people.

10:18Sarah Powers: Well, I'll go oldest to youngest too. So I will start with Luke. Luke is 17, newly 17. So as we record this, he's finishing up junior year. I mean, what's great about Luke in this stage? He is a delight to be around.

10:34Meagan Francis: truly like he is just pleasant and I it's very hard for me not to compare myself as an oldest

10:43Sarah Powers: child to Luke as an oldest child we there's some real similarities and there's some distinct differences and I know it's not about me and the comparison is not helpful and probably not recommended but it's hard it's hard not to sometimes um Luke is very he's very driven and very, um, he's got some achievement notches on his belt. Like he's taking AP classes. He's looking at competitive colleges. He's doing all these things that I was doing, but he has a kind of laid backness about him that I did not have. And a kind of, he's very kind to both himself and others, which is very unusual at this age.

11:21Sarah Powers: Like he's just not super high strung. So if he screws up or he oversleeps or he misses an assignment. He's not hard on himself. And yet he's he's performed like by the traditional benchmarks of of success. He's doing really, really, really well. But he's doing it without an intensity that I had where I wasn't I wasn't very nice to myself. I sometimes wasn't very nice to my family. So he's just he's delightful. As we record this, my other two kids are on school trips. So Brian and I are having some really sweet time with just Luke. Um, and he's delightful to be around. He, I will say a personality difference.

12:00Sarah Powers: It's so different from him to me is he's very much a, like a yes. And why not personality more like a you Megan, like he wants to kind of try things and do everything. And he's not, it doesn't stress him out to kind of overcommit. He'll get a little overcommitted and then that'll pass and he'll figure it out. It's just like, it's delightful. So like he flies trapeze when he has time and he wants to try, like, he'll want to try some hobby or something. And I'm like, really? Like, where did you get that idea? And you know, TikTok probably, but like, right. He's just, um, he was asked to house sit this weekend.

12:36Sarah Powers: So we just, for the very first time had the milestone of leaving our teenagers at home overnight by themselves. And that went fine. And then Luke was just asked to stay overnight at someone else's house to watch their pets while they're away. And I was like, yeah, that's fine. And he's like, yeah, I just want to, I just want to be a good friend. I just want to say yes. I don't know how much they're going to pay me, but I just want to do it. And that's like, he just is a person who says, says yes to things. And I so admire that. And he's just, yeah, like no, no notes, no notes. He's really

13:06Meagan Francis: fun to be around who can get through an entire, you know, performance of teenager-ness without notes. Yeah, that is a great achievement. Okay. Well, moving down the line to Isaac, Isaac is now 25. So I am loving getting to know Isaac as an adult, like as a legit adult, you know, now he's like fully into his adultness. I just really like him a lot. Um, he reminds me, I think what I'm starting to realize is the ways that he and I are similar that I wouldn't have noticed when he was younger because the way his sort of restless brain manifested as a young kid was in being very physically wild.

13:58Sarah Powers: Yeah.

13:58Meagan Francis: And I think that's, you know, fairly typical for boys. So it came off as this very physically wild, uncontrollable, low impulse control kind of a thing. And then as he got a little older, he started to calm down. But what I didn't realize that was that the busy brain was still there.

14:17Sarah Powers: Yeah.

14:17Meagan Francis: So what I see that look like now is like me at that age, Isaac, he likes to be doing things. He likes to work. He's like he's a dedicated and hard worker. Like he'll right out of high school, he wanted a full time job and then he jumped from that job to a different full time job. So it's he he likes to keep himself busy in that way. but he also gets bored really easily. And he also really doesn't like jobs that aren't challenging.

14:46Sarah Powers: And so I, right.

14:48Meagan Francis: I know it's like choosing the hard way more than, because I was kind of talking to him a year ago or so he had a job. It was a desk job. He'd, he'd been doing more physical labor for this utility company and really enjoyed it. But then they asked if he would take this desk job, which seemed like a, seemed like a move up because it wasn't climbing poles and it was salary. and within a few months he was so bored and all he could see was the company's dysfunction which he didn't notice when he was out in the field climbing poles all day and I said honey I there's two ways you can do this and one way is to just pace yourself and take the paycheck and a lot of people are very good at that and another way is to hate it and quit and do something else because like a lot of people can't, you know, I could not do that.

15:40Sarah Powers: So what he kind of realized

15:41Meagan Francis: about himself is he can't, he cannot pace himself, turn a blind eye to things that are inefficient and annoying. He can't do it. And I totally respect that. So then he's just kind of been figuring things out and finally decided to go back, not to the same company he was at before, but go to a similar company and do physical outdoor work again because he wants to. And it, and the other thing about Isaac is he's so smart that I think people have been trying to route him into brainy jobs his whole life yeah and he's like but I don't I don't want and I when I say smart I mean like he read Dostoevsky for fun like he he that's the kind of brain he likes philosophy yeah but he doesn't want a job in that that's not and I understand that because just because you are have like a high verbal score or good writing ability or good communication ability or whatever doesn't mean that going to college for that is for you.

16:46Meagan Francis: Yeah. Just as an example, or maybe it's just not at that age. Like, and that's another thing like that in my young twenties, I was not as studious and good at managing workloads as I am now. So it's just been fun to watch him kind of come into some maturity and right now he is a couple weeks out from this new job starting so i said hey come spend some time with us so he's been here and he's just a delight um so easy going so nice to be around like kind to all his siblings he's kind of the glue he's the one they go to if they have a problem which unfortunately sometimes makes him a little bit of a target of

17:22Sarah Powers: lending a lot of money and things like that or you know what i mean or giving a little more than he

17:27Meagan Francis: can afford to give in of his time because I think he does see himself as a leader and wanting to help. And that's all great. But it's like he has to look out for himself, too. So that's challenging. But anyway, he just like our senses of humor line up so well and match up so well. He gets along great with Eric like they are buddies like just it's it's just he's a delight to be around. And he and has been for a couple of years. Like I never really have friction with Isaac. and I guess I really never have had friction with Isaac since when he was little and used to hide yes and when he used to hide under the racks at Target and yell swear words because I couldn't find him like we had tension then but that was a long time ago and sometimes I'm not going to say you know I don't believe in favorites as a mom but sometimes you just have a kid where it's like I just see, I get you.

18:22Meagan Francis: I see you. I get you. We're very similar. I don't have to, it's just easy. And that's, that's what I've got with him. Yeah.

18:29Sarah Powers: For new listeners, we will link up the famous Isaac story that became a viral story. And then a story that you wrote about it.

18:38Meagan Francis: And I saw you wrote about it recently again on Substack. So

18:40Sarah Powers: it's like the gift that keeps on giving, but the reason it keeps on giving is because he keeps

18:46Meagan Francis: becoming more of himself and there's more reflection on that on that original photo

18:52Sarah Powers: um well I will talk about Reed next Reed is uh as of this airing is 15 as of this recording is just a couple of days shy of 15 um in my limited experience this 14 to 15 is challenging sorry

19:13Meagan Francis: I remember who it was. I was just talking to, Oh, it was, um, Jenny Fink who has the, had the on boys podcast. And, um, she and I did a sub stack for my book and she said, what do you think that the age is that's the worst for boys? She didn't tell me what her, you know, her thought was. And I said 15 and she's like, yep.

19:31Sarah Powers: So I am going to talk about what's great about Reed, but I will just on that note, I will say Reed was a little early to puberty, like early developmentally. So I'm kind of hoping that like the back half of 14 for him and going into a early 15 is maybe like we're, we're in it. Um, and, and in full disclosure, when I say we're in it, it's not like we're having screaming fights and he's punching walls at all. So there's been a lot of growth in our relationship and in my, um, and Brian's like, this has been a challenging for Brian to like, this is like watching a human develop before your eyes. And that is what I would tell moms.

20:12Sarah Powers: That's what puberty is like, because they physically change. They intellectually change their personalities, even kind of change. It's very humbling. Um, so here's what I will say. I love this kid to pieces in many ways. I just talked about how Luke has some real differences from me, even though we're both oldest kids, Reed and I have some like hardwired similarities. Um, and I, I have so much empathy for him and I, I'm crazy about him. Um, one thing that has been really helpful as I do think this is a, this is a tough age and it's tough on the parent child relationship. Sometimes I'm so grateful to have a few adults in Reed's life that I know pretty well and who have been able to tell me as an aside.

21:02Sarah Powers: I I love this kid so much. They'll tell me like he is so kind and he's so helpful and he's so funny and his peers look up to him. I have there's a couple of people at school and one person at theater. And I didn't have this with Luke necessarily. I didn't have the people who could whisper in my ear because they didn't know Luke as well. They didn't know me as well. But it's been such a it's been so fun to have have other adults tell me what they see in my kid that I don't always I'm not always able to see that at home because of what they're because of their natural development that they're going through.

21:41Sarah Powers: So that's not at all about read. It's just about this stage of parenting that has been so helpful to me. And I'm not kidding when I've had conversations where the person is telling me things they're observing and they're like, it's so fun to have him in class or it's so, and I'm just like, I believe you. And also I, that's not what I, that's not my experience at home.

22:01Meagan Francis: So it's like, man, I don't know if that

22:04Sarah Powers: makes sense.

22:04Meagan Francis: Did that ever happen with any of your kids? Cause you also have, you have proxies

22:08Sarah Powers: out in the community who could tell you that your kid is well liked. Maybe they're well liked in the hallways. And I'm like, well, they're not well liked in my hallways.

22:15Meagan Francis: They're such a sweetheart. What now? OK, that's not the word I would have used. But yes. Yeah. You know, and I yeah, I'll just leave that there. But they do see something different. And like like with any aged kid, teenager or not, it is true that your kids save their worst sides for you. They just do. They they they bring it. They take it all out on their parents because they trust that you will love them anyway. And that's great. But also sometimes not so great.

22:45Sarah Powers: um yeah I have a one specific compliment for Reed and that is that he takes specific feedback and coaching really really well you would think that he wouldn't because he's a kind of a perfectionist and he like he thinks he knows the right way to do things and he he doesn't see the point in doing like just like Owen but if you can catch him at the right time and with the right intention um Like just say, hey, when you do this, I feel this way or like next time I'd like us to approach this this way. He'll remember and he will. He's a very he's such a learner in his intellectual brain that I've I've actually discovered it works interpersonally, too.

23:28Sarah Powers: So if you tell him something hurts your feelings or if you tell him that didn't come out the way you think and you can frame it as coaching. I have watched him learn and make changes. And that's a huge asset as a person. Like if you were in a romantic partnership and having friction and your person said, you know, I would love it if you would do this this way. And you could actually make that change. Like that's, that's huge. So sometimes when I've been like, he, he has a fixed mindset sometimes. And I'm like, no, he doesn't. He's, he's actually, he's able to be coached.

24:03Meagan Francis: Yeah. You know what I because I know that Owen and Reed have some similarities, a lot of similarities, I think. And I think that when the mistake I made when Owen was that age, because I I had a tough time with Owen when he was like 14, going into 15 and a lot of his his 15 year old year. um I guess I didn't realize that I could do that that I could just be like hey when you do this it comes off as x could you do y instead to me that almost felt like being too bossy or not giving him enough ability to read the room or whatever it was right and so sometimes I would get so frustrated and I would be like I don't like what do you want from me and he'd be like what do you want from me?

24:48Meagan Francis: Like that was essentially, we didn't use exactly those words, but those were when we would have moments of friction. That was essentially what was coming up. I was like, why can't I make you happy is what I was saying. And he was like, I guess I didn't know you were trying to like, what should I do differently?

25:03Sarah Powers: What do you want? Right.

25:05Meagan Francis: And now I can see how well he takes direction.

25:10Sarah Powers: Yeah.

25:11Meagan Francis: Because he doesn't take it personally. like if someone was personal, that's exactly right.

25:15Sarah Powers: It's like a, it's like an adjustment to the matrix. Like a, it's like a computer adjustment. Yes, I know.

25:21Meagan Francis: Now where for me, that wouldn't work. If someone tried to tell me like, Hey, interpersonally, I think it's offensive when you do this, could you do that other thing instead? I'd be like, I would almost be offended by that and be like, can't I just figure this out on my own or which isn't better or worse. It's just a personality thing. Like I pride myself on being able to read the room and into it, people's needs. And if it's pointed out to me that I didn't do that right, I'm sort of like put out by that. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, and would not be. And it sounds like read either.

25:49Sarah Powers: Yeah. This is so that's why humans are so complicated, but it has been really helpful to our relationship.

25:57Meagan Francis: And I think I just kind of discovered it by accident.

26:00Sarah Powers: But now I see that. And I that's that's such a good way to put it that Owen put it of like, what do you want me to do differently? It's like, oh, I can I can tell you what I want you to do differently because it does feel tell you it does feel to us like it should be intuitive. Like the. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, bless you all who have 14 to 15 year olds. Yeah.

26:23Meagan Francis: Yeah. And I also I think I would also say we've talked about this on the podcast before that. Why can't they just feeling why can't they just pull in the blank? Whatever it is. That's what's so complicated about parenting people who are different from us, because why can't they just, because they're not us. That's why they can't just, or because whatever the thing is that we just want them to do, maybe it doesn't even make sense. So he's figuring that out, but it sounds like he's on his, on a path to being like a super responsive and responsible young person, which is amazing.

26:55Sarah Powers: Yes.

26:58Meagan Francis: Well, you had your middle last and I'll do my middle next. Will. Um, Will's 21 now. And here's what I'll say. 21 is hard. Okay. I'm taking notes. Yes. And I think Will is coming through it with the right attitude. Uh, and a lot of ideas. He's very optimistic. He's very optimistic. He's got a lot of ways this could all play out for him. I, after having been a 21 year old myself, and then having had two other kids who were 21, and I was also married to a 21 year old because I got married when I was barely, well, I was just shy of my 20th birthday. And my husband at the time was 20 and he turned 21 when we were married.

27:46Meagan Francis: So I remember being married to a 21 year old. And I had this conversation not too long ago with Jacob actually. And I was just saying, man, 21 is hard because you're a bona unified adult, you can do all the things, all the things, all the things are legal. I mean, you can do them all except for, I guess, rent a car, but the world isn't really opening up to you just yet. No one's really taking you seriously. It's like you've passed the opportunities to try anything you want, like the way you have in high school and early college where it's like, you want to do this? Try that. Oh, how about this?

28:23Meagan Francis: Just try this then. And that's kind of more or less behind you. If you're like Jacob, you might, you might still lean in on that at a much older age, but for most young people, they're kind of moving past that. The world is super wide open. And it's like, I want to get going on something, but what and how is there also,

28:43Sarah Powers: is there also a thing with 21? I'm thinking about peers where like, I would imagine that there's a lot of variety in what other 21 year olds are doing.

28:52Meagan Francis: Some are graduated from college,

28:54Sarah Powers: Right. And some of them are deep into an academic thing. Some of them are starting careers. Some. Yeah. So I would imagine that that's a little lonely, maybe. Yeah. Of feeling like everyone is there's so many different ways to be 21.

29:07Meagan Francis: yeah I think Will has such grand ideas he never has wanted to do anything again this is a current a through line with my kids he doesn't want to do anything the easy way and he doesn't want to do anything too normal I guess or in a normal way um so it's like all of his ideas are the largest expression of those ideas. And I think that when you're 21 and you don't actually know anything yet about how the world works or like what's a scam and what's not, what's worth putting your time into, what's not, it just means you're a little vulnerable to some disappointment, I guess. And I think that's maybe where he's finding himself now.

29:59Meagan Francis: On the good side, he's just as fun, loving and friendly and lovable as ever. And, and I love watching him mature. I just wish this age was easier. I wish this age had been easier for all of my kids so far. And, um, my oldest three have some things in common that have made their early twenties hard for all of them, actually in very different ways, but they haven't been easy. This has not been easy. And I think sometimes it's tempting to think, well, if I can just get them past 18, if I can just get them past, you know, the first couple of years after high school or whatever, but that's not always the way it plays out.

30:35Sarah Powers: I think that's good for all of us to hear, especially people like me. Um, you had everybody together in person recently, right? Like two or three weeks ago.

30:47Meagan Francis: Yep. Um,

30:49Sarah Powers: so we'll got to be right in the middle of all the siblings. Was it fun to see everybody all together?

30:55Meagan Francis: It was so fun. And all of their dynamics are exactly the same, but just make them all older. You know, like all they all, there is really something to the way everyone has their place in a family, whether, you know, for better or for worse. I remember lots of that kind of in the late eighties and early nineties, all the birth order talk. I went, we're going to some like weekend thing. It was like a weekend retreat. It must've been with our church or something where they had us all talk about our, our roles and our family. And you know how teenagers love to get really what's like in our feels about ourselves and how unfair and put upon we are.

31:34Meagan Francis: So I remember this room with all these crying teenagers talking about how like they're an oldest. And that means that everyone expects all this of them or they're a middle and they're invisible or like they're the clown or whatever it was. Right. And I don't remember what my take on my youngest position was, but I probably didn't feel kindly toward my family for it. and now that I've raised five kids, mostly all the way through to adulthood, and I'm looking at them going, well, they're all just they're all playing out this role. And they're like, there's it's out of my hands now out of your hand.

32:07Sarah Powers: And like it was never really in your hands, like unless you were going to have quintuplets

32:12Meagan Francis: or something.

32:13Sarah Powers: Right. I do think there's a there's this like thing that moms do where we feel like it's our job to counteract whatever you believe about birth order. I certainly think it's a part of the it's a part of the soup that goes into family dynamics and roles. I don't think it's the only thing, but like it's not our job as moms to sort of counteract and counterbalance and like get in the middle of birth order stuff or sibling dynamics. I guess it's going to be what it's going to be.

32:44Meagan Francis: I catch myself doing that, too. Like, I don't want this oldest child to feel the the responsibility pressure.

32:51Sarah Powers: or I don't want this, you know, whatever. But it's, it's, there's a certain amount of letting go.

32:57Meagan Francis: There's ways we can, and I think you and I both have mitigated or at least not added to that. Like I was very careful about never turning my, like setting my kids up against each other or creating a competitive attitude in the house. Like, and I know you've always been really mindful of like the oldest role and all that. Like there's noticing and being mindful and trying not to pile on. But then there is a big part where it's like, these are just people living together. They're not all like pre-programmed like little robots that we can make react to each other in a certain way. They're going to all, they have a unit just like we have a unit with them.

33:40Meagan Francis: So their relationships are all happening.

33:42Sarah Powers: And yeah, so all that is to say, yes, we had a good time together.

33:45Meagan Francis: I think it's really fun to see the alliances and an alliance makes it sound like there's also enemies. And I don't mean it that way. Just like the way certain relationships have developed, how some kids are really close to each other right now and others are a little more distant, but I know that'll, that'll change again in the future too. And like how the unit is. Yeah. Yeah.

34:07Sarah Powers: Yeah. Great. Um, okay. Well I will talk about Violet who is 12. I sent you a picture of Violet earlier this week and you were like, who is that adult woman? adult woman so um i also saw a picture so she's she's finishing up sixth grade um and i saw a picture of her at the beginning of sixth grade and it is a big it's a big physical change even the bones not to make yes not to make everything about puberty but uh it is a it's a big physical change for her this year she looks like a different type of a different she's graduated to a different type of person than a child. I don't know what else, how else to phrase that.

34:52Sarah Powers: She's like a pre-adolescent. Violet is like still very bonded to me, which is so sweet, but different. I mean, long time listeners know like she's always been attached to me. And as the youngest, she gets to be. And like my little sidekick, never wanted to play by herself, like always up, you know, she's a busy, like a busy bee. And there's parts of her childhood personality that are still alive and well. We're just seeing them in the adolescent version, which is really, really fun. She's always been social. She actually, she took a Myers-Briggs this year in a class. I think they did it kind of for fun, but they were learning about different ways to think about knowing yourself and knowing your personality.

35:38Sarah Powers: So they didn't make a huge deal about Myers-Briggs, but they did take that as one way to think about understanding yourself. And according to Violet, she scored 100 % extroversion. And I was like, I don't know

35:50Meagan Francis: if that's really possible, but if anyone could do it, be a 100%, maybe, maybe anyone could do it.

35:56Sarah Powers: Violet could like she, and that's how she's been since she was little. She doesn't like to be by herself. She likes, she wants to be planning the next thing, making plans with friends. She's, I really give her a lot of credit for her navigating a new school, new friend dynamics, not all easy friend dynamics, plenty of, I don't like that word drama.

36:18Meagan Francis: I don't like the word mean

36:19Sarah Powers: girls. I think sometimes we're reducing girls, especially to these tropes now that aren't particularly helpful for any of them. But in the absence of other words, I know there's a lot of friendship stuff going on. She doesn't share all of it with me. But I think she's I think she's come out stronger at the end of her sixth grade year. At the beginning of sixth grade, there were sometimes there was sometimes anxiety. There was sometimes tears for no reason. Again, that's very common with hormones and stuff. And I just see her as really like strong and resilient at the end of her sixth grade year, which is really cool.

36:58Sarah Powers: It's a huge change of a year. Um, she continues to keep me on my toes, this kid long. I mean, we've been doing this podcast for 10 years and I've been saying that for 10 years, this should not surprise people. Um, I can't fall asleep at the wheel on my last teenager. Let me just put it that way.

37:15Meagan Francis: Yeah. You know, I'm thinking about, well, at least Violet makes it obvious. You know what I mean? And in some ways that's a blessing because you do get a little tired toward the end. And if, and an easier kid is sometimes a little easier, an easier seeming kid or like a less, a less ultra kid might, it might be easy just to be like, well, they're, they got this, you know, and that might not be the case. So I was also just thinking about sixth grade for Clara socially was difficult also, not because she has a hard time making friends really, but because there was a lot of upheaval in her friend groups and it kind of made me think back to my own middle and high school experiences.

38:00Meagan Francis: And I feel like, and I think this also kind of is true for my friends too.

38:04Sarah Powers: So I moved twice. So there, that couldn't help but impact it. But this is also true for the people I know who didn't move.

38:10Meagan Francis: I feel like there's a great shuffling of friends kind of in that sixth, seventh grade. And then again in like 10th grade.

38:17Sarah Powers: I agree. I had I had friends shuffling almost every year from seven, maybe less than six, but seventh through 10th. I feel like every year was shuffling. Yeah. A different bestie, a different group. Yeah.

38:31Meagan Francis: Yeah. And like figuring yourself out and different rates of, I guess, maturity and then realizing that, like, you just don't have much in common with this person or that person or. Yeah, there's just so much going on then. So I think it sounds like she's really holding her own, which is great.

38:49Sarah Powers: Yeah, she is. And I cannot remember which episode, but at some point recently we were talking about teenagers or something on this podcast, like within the last six months. And I remember saying on the podcast that Violet was kind of my boundary pusher. And then I thought about that later and I thought she's not actually. So if boundaries are like our family systems and our rules and our expectations. She's not a kid who's like breaking rules or sneaking out. I think sometimes it seems like I paint her that way. What she is, is a kid with a 110 % zest for life. And she wants to do everything. And she also wants to do things that older kids are doing.

39:30Sarah Powers: It's more of like a life FOMO than it is a boundary pusher because boundary pusher to me feels like, oh, mom says I have to go to bed at nine. I'm going to stay up till 11. It's more like, mom, can we get dropped off downtown by ourselves? And then I have to think, can you?

39:49Meagan Francis: I don't know.

39:51Sarah Powers: You're 12. The other kids didn't do that till they were closer to 13. Like it's this constant, like I want to participate in life, which then keeps me on my toes of like, is this a hill I'm going to die on? Is it not? And it's a constant, um, evaluating of my,

40:08Meagan Francis: you're having to ask yourself a lot of yourself, a lot of questions constantly. Yeah. So yeah.

40:13Sarah Powers: And it's different than like, like rule breaking or like, um, yeah, just going against everything. It's more like, I want, I want, I want, it's a zest for.

40:24Meagan Francis: Yeah. And, and she's, it's not like she won't obey you if you were to set down a rule. Yeah. But she's not going to comply before the rule is set, perhaps. Right.

40:35Sarah Powers: You might have had other kids who would just go along and she's

40:39Meagan Francis: going to question.

40:40Sarah Powers: Always. Yeah. Yeah.

40:42Meagan Francis: Well, that's a very good asking why is a great is a great quality to have in life. I'm saying why? Why are things that way? Why can't we do this? I'm fully on board with that quality of violence. But you're right. You're going to have your work cut out for you in all the ways that that feels like work to Sarah. You know what I mean? That's what having our parenting work cut out for us is. It's challenging us like who we are.

41:13Sarah Powers: So well said.

41:16Meagan Francis: Well, we're down to two. My two youngest, Owen and Clara. So Owen, he is home for the summer. And a year ago, I never used the words soiling the nest with Owen, which is that phrase that means that like baby birds poop in the nest before they have to get thrown out of it. I never and it's often applied to teenagers, especially teenage boys before they leave for college. And I never used that word for Owen because that's not how it felt. It didn't feel like he was purposefully pushing us like back or wasn't rebelling. He wasn't hard. He wasn't trying to be hard to be around. Nothing like that. But there was still a lot of tension in the house before he went to college.

42:00Meagan Francis: And I just think there was a lot of things going on. I think his idea of what was maybe owed to him was different from my idea of that. We weren't clashing or anything. I just was kind of exhausted. And I think it was part of like the whole lead up to him going off to college and him having some anxiety about how that was all going to go down and then really wanting us to solve things for him. We couldn't solve that. I think is really, and him also wanting the world to run a certain way, um, that the world simply does not run. And there's a lot, there's a lot there.

42:34Sarah Powers: Yeah.

42:36Meagan Francis: In the interim year, he has grown up so much. I can't even tell you like, and I, and I mean that in all the bestest of ways, like he came back as a person who went out into the world and was kind of lonely. He had a lonely year. He didn't really make a lot of friends. I don't know that he made any friends, honestly, had a really heavy, challenging workload at school, learned some things about the wisdom or not wisdom of pushing back on assignments that you can't do anything about. And then, you know, so, um, there was a lot of that, a lot of growth there had to figure some stuff out for himself because we just weren't there to help him figure it out.

43:18Meagan Francis: Like all of those things. And he did it and he's a full year older, which in 19 year old, um, you know, speak as like a 20th of your life. It's a lot of light, like five, he's 5 % older or something like that. And a huge amount of brain growth, right?

43:36Sarah Powers: Like I think at that age, like, yeah.

43:38Meagan Francis: Yeah. So we're having a great time with him back now. Like he's, he's, you know, I think I mentioned at Christmas, we were, I was a little struggling because everybody, we, they all came home. We had a wonderful Christmas. Then everyone left except Owen and he was here for another week and sleeping until two or three o 'clock every day because he really needed the rest. But I just didn't know how to handle that. I'm like, are you here or not? Are we spending time together or aren't we? And there was, it was kind of a rough holiday for me in a lot of ways. So, um, like the post, you know, the actual Christmas day was great, but then all the aftermath was really rough.

44:16Sarah Powers: Yeah.

44:18Meagan Francis: So I guess what I would say now is he came home and decided he's going to have he's going to have a good time this summer. He went and got a job at like the cool place to work because his cousin got him in. So it's this pizza place where it's like if you are a teenager and you want to have a cool job, this is where you work. And so he's in and now he's got this little group of friends that he's doing stuff with, which is good. He needs that. And he's just having like normal teenage, like young adult teenage fun.

44:47Sarah Powers: And he has his own wheels or he has a car to use, right?

44:49Meagan Francis: And he has a car. Yes, he bought a car from us. So that is making, and he was kind of like resistant because he also can be a little bit miserly with his money and he didn't, we gave him a really good deal on it, but he did have to pay us something for it. And he kind of didn't want to. And I was like, here's the deal. You have to get to work somehow and I'm not going to drive you every time and you don't just get to use this car. So how are you going to make those things all go together? And that's when I think he was like, oh, right. Like, just because I don't want to spend money doesn't mean my life doesn't cost money.

45:20Sarah Powers: Right. It doesn't mean that everyone else now accommodates my lack of transportation.

45:25Meagan Francis: Exactly. Exactly. So he bought it and I think he's happy to have it. And I think he likes the freedom and I think he likes having the friends. And I think he's being, um, he's being like appropriately helpful and sort of, um, proactive about being helpful. and I love when you were talking about Reed like taking direction well because it really got me thinking about how how seriously Owen takes direction and how he always has and I haven't always given that the the credit it deserves I think that like I never really had to bug him about doing things and that's why it would bug him so much if I reminded him because he's like I'm the one kid in this house who will do it without the reminder.

46:12Meagan Francis: And I'd be like, I know, but you're all in one room. So I'm just going to remind you all. And that, you know, isn't always fair. And so this is kind of a cute story. So yesterday he gets a shift pizza at the end of his, his shift, he gets to take a pizza home. It's pretty good pizza. So I was like, Ooh, I really like to have this one pizza and it's called the harvest. And it's got like, it's like fancy pizza.

46:34Sarah Powers: It's got like, I went there on your birthday on your 40th. Yeah, Yeah, really sweet potato and cheddar or something like it's not a pizza that that like a teenager would usually get.

46:45Meagan Francis: And I said, I really want one of those. You're going to bring me one tonight. And he said, I don't know. That's not what I want to eat. And I was kind of joking and I really didn't expect him like I would have paid him for it. But he walks in the house at 10 o 'clock with this pizza. I'm in bed already with like the lights off. And he's like, what are you doing? And I said, oh, and he's like, I brought you your pizza. and I said, oh honey, I've already brushed my teeth. And I said, did you get that as your shift pizza? And he said, well, yeah. And I was like, oh no, because, um, what are you going to eat now?

47:16Meagan Francis: Anyway, it was kind of funny. And it just reminded me of like, if, if I ask him to do something, he really will do it. Right. And to the letter, like literally.

47:25Sarah Powers: Yeah.

47:25Meagan Francis: Yeah. So we had a funny moment about it today. I was like, yeah, sorry about the pizza. And I said, just so you know, I'm never going to ask you to give up your shift meal for me. So get yourself pepperoni or whatever you want, and then I'll pay you back if you get me something. But anyway, so that's Owen. We're having a great time.

47:40Sarah Powers: I'm really happy that he's home for the summer. And I have fond memories of that summer home after freshman year myself. Like I felt very grown up, but I was living at home, driving a borrowed car. I had a restaurant job. When you said shift pizza, I was like, oh my gosh, I had a shift sand. It was like a half sandwich and a half Caesar salad. I ate the same thing every shift. It was so good.

48:05Meagan Francis: And then I also felt like I had a little more freedom.

48:08Sarah Powers: I was probably going out a little bit and staying out a little later.

48:11Meagan Francis: Like it's just, it's just, it's a good time of life when it is, you know what I mean? It might be hard on the parents,

48:18Sarah Powers: but I, I, it was a nice hybrid of not quite a real grownup yet, but I'd been out, I'd been away from home and like I think I felt like much more of a grown-up at 19 than I had at 18 yeah

48:34Meagan Francis: well the last kid on the docket um for our very last what's great about our eight episode is Clara she is 16 um she has as of our recording this two more days of her sophomore year left and I just have never had anything negative to say about Clara. Honestly, I look back at all this and I'm not like you, not like we've said anything negative about our other kids, but I honestly just don't know that I've ever had a complaint about Clara. She's just been so easy. Maybe she's the the kid of mother of five needs to bring up the rear.

49:14Sarah Powers: Oh, I can think of, this is not a negative, But I can think of the times when you would talk about Clara needing to unload a lot about what was going on. And maybe when even she was younger, a little bit of anxiety or like. That's true. Like she struggles. They all, you know, they all do. And I'm not trying to be the damper on that. No, you're right. You're right.

49:36Meagan Francis: Yeah. It's the she definitely had some anxieties and she definitely could do the thing where she catastrophizes. and she recognizes that now it's become kind of a joke like she jumps right into the most negative version of what happened that day but I guess I just mean that as like as far as a load on me yeah yeah they're just it's like she's just good natured I had a experience a couple of weeks ago this is really funny actually she shared something with me about a friend of hers and then John and Jenna came over that evening and I offhand kind of mentioned part of the story and because Jenna was in the room and she and I just talk about all this stuff she knows all the same we all know all the same kids and I kind of forgot that John and Eric were also in the room and that made it a little more dicey because it's kind of personal about her friend yeah anyway Claire was kind of like and I said oh yeah you probably don't want me sharing that with everybody And that night I woke up at like three in the morning and had the worst anxiety.

50:40Meagan Francis: Like I had made her really mad at me. You know, I don't know why. There's really no reason for me to have that feeling. But I was like, oh, my gosh, I've really betrayed a trust. She's really going to be mad at me. I should go apologize.

50:51Sarah Powers: So three in the morning.

50:52Meagan Francis: I know. So like the next day I was like, hey, sorry, I brought that up yesterday. I shouldn't have done that. Like, that's not something that needs to be aired in front of everyone. She's like, what? And I said, remember yesterday when and she said, oh, I don't care. She didn't care at all. Anyway, my point is like, we just, there's just not a lot of angst.

51:12Sarah Powers: Yeah. You know, like this just, she's just been really easy.

51:15Meagan Francis: And what's fun to see now is that where I kind of used to worry that she was almost too easy. Like, is there something hidden here? Is there some unmet need? Is there some unexpressed need? Is she lonely? Is she depressed? Like all these things. Now I'm kind of going, I feel like I know by now. Like, I feel like there, I feel like we have an open enough relationship that if there was a need, she'd tell me. I feel like, I just feel like she maybe is just kind of easy. Like maybe that's just, maybe she's just kind of easy going.

51:51Sarah Powers: And that doesn't mean she won't struggle. And she has. And it doesn't mean there won't be times when she and I clash. I'm sure we will.

51:57Meagan Francis: They're frustrated. We've had moments of frustration and things like that. I know that I've gotten I get frustrated with her about silly things sometimes. I think. Not silly things, but kind of inconsequential things, because I'll look at her and be like, OK, well, I feel like at this age I was doing X, Y and Z. I'm not even sure that's always true, but that's kind of what I'll think.

52:20Sarah Powers: You have much more time and brain space to notice. Oh, my gosh. So like pros and cons of like this whole birth order thing and who's left in the house. There's for sure pros and cons like. I mean, I would argue it probably balances out almost equally because you can make arguments on both sides, but she definitely, you have more time to notice everything from, did she

52:43Meagan Francis: take out the trash to, does she need a haircut to, did she look at you weird when you said that thing? Like there were things when you had one 16 year old, but also two older kids and two

52:53Sarah Powers: younger kids, like they just wasn't, you couldn't notice it all.

52:57Meagan Francis: Right. So the things about Clara that I think are going to be really great going into the summer and then into her 11th grade year are one, she'll be driving by the end of the summer. So she has her permit. Right. So she will use Owen's car. So the deal we kind of made is that we gave him a good deal on the car and we will pay the insurance in exchange for him leaving the car behind, which he wants to do anyway. He doesn't want to have a car at school. Right. And letting Clara.

53:20Sarah Powers: He'll still be the owner. And then you're sort of leasing it from him.

53:24Meagan Francis: Yeah, we're sub-leasing it to Clara so that she can have a car to get back and forth next year, which meets everyone's needs because then we don't have that. We don't have to have another extra car in the driveway and he doesn't have to have a car up north that he doesn't want to have.

53:37Sarah Powers: Yeah.

53:38Meagan Francis: And she gets a car to drive herself to school. So that's going to be great. Like that freedom is going to be huge for her. And this summer she is going to get some kind of job. And I know in a recent episode we talked about, oh no, we didn't. It was just us talking about it on Voxer. Yeah. I think about like the pros and cons or ins and outs of like drawing a hard line about making a kid get a job and then realizing actually there's no job.

54:00Sarah Powers: Yeah.

54:01Meagan Francis: There's no job for them. And then they're 15. Well, she's 16 now. So the world's kind of her oyster as far as getting a job. So that is a plan. And I think both of those are I do think this year was big for her, like having to kind of figure out her life outside of her siblings.

54:16Sarah Powers: Like, yeah, who is

54:17Meagan Francis: she if she's not the youngest sister of these four boys and who is she if she has to come home and like work a little harder to have friends because she doesn't have a built-in social life the way she used to and I I've seen leaps and bounds and I think it's just gonna keep I think she's gonna

54:33Sarah Powers: keep on growing well this is a delight a darn delight um I cannot believe that when we started this podcast, our kids were ages two to 17. Oh my gosh. Now they are 12 to 27. That's,

54:49Meagan Francis: that's how math works.

54:51Sarah Powers: That's how a decade will be. Um, well, thanks to everyone listening and, and particular thanks to those who truly feel like they do kind of know our families and know our kids. And we have felt that from you over the years, from your emails and your, um, social media comments. And I just so appreciate how much you all have rooted for our families through various ups and downs and how I do feel like our listeners really get the fact that this show isn't about our kids and we're not going to, we're not going to air all their laundry. And, um, that's never been the point of this show. It's never going to be.

55:28Sarah Powers: Um, and I feel a lot of love and support from listeners about our individual kids and who they are and who they're becoming. So thank you all for that. Thank you. All right, everybody. Well, we will be back on Friday. We actually have a bonus episode coming up this Friday, the third in our series about time. We're going to be talking about time as in the future tense, like how we plan for the future, how we think about the future. And so that'll be fun. So Megan, I'll talk to you Friday.

55:54Meagan Francis: Talk to you Friday. Thanks for listening to the mom hour.

55:58Sarah Powers: Everything we talked about in today's episode is available at themomhour.com. And hey, while you're there, you can find more than 500 podcast episodes, plus articles, playlists, and resources about motherhood and parenting at every stage.

56:10Meagan Francis: And if you liked today's episode, we'd love it if you would take a minute to share the show with another mom in your life. You can also find us on Instagram at themomhour, chatting and interacting with listeners between episodes.

56:22Sarah Powers: Thanks for being here, friends. We'll talk to you soon.