I'm A Buddhist Wealth Manager: Why You Never Feel Rich (Unless You Do This)

0:00Sean, welcome. Hi, Tammy. you're a chartered wealth manager you help people build wealth for a living but you're also a practicing buddhist which is really cool you go on retreats and most people would say that those are opposites um one's about accumulating one's about letting go how do you feel like those two worlds collide in your life and how do you manage that yeah now this is you know me in a nutshell i I guess. And you're absolutely right. It's a great observation that these two worlds can work completely against each other. In fact, in my last retreat, it was a question I asked the teacher.

0:44I was like, I feel like when I'm here, I get right into it. And then I start questioning everything that I'm doing when I'm outside of that world and the Buddhism. And actually last time interesting I had almost like an aversion to the teacher who I know and I really like and is an amazing teacher and I think just partly because it made me feel uncomfortable but what I would say is that you can make the worlds come together I think the other thing is is you know so obviously being into Buddhism I am very into mindset happiness is that you know sometimes we just want to figure everything out right and we want the perfect answer and also just being okay with maybe feeling like that as well but what I would say is that it definitely forms you know my values there are like five precepts lived by you know basically just being a good person um but they do help form my decisions so you know for example do I want to get that flashy car um now I haven't got one at the moment I might get one in the future but I know it's not going to make me happy you know and I did recently test drive a really nice car and I was like yeah it's pretty cool but it's it's not really like that is how much value is that adding And what I don't want is to get carried away with the materialism.

2:25And I mean, interestingly, my main teacher from the school that I teach, I was on a different retreat with him. And he said, who's the wealthiest person here? So bearing in mind, so he's a monk, he's a monastic. As a monastic, you can't own anything really. certainly nothing no money yeah so you can't touch money and you know straight away he put his hand up and by the way is the happiest person I've ever met I spent quite a lot of time I was quite lucky and he's Adjun Bram by the way if you want to look him up because he's on YouTube etc and you know I'm sort of sitting there thinking you know I've got a bit of wealth um and obviously on paper i'm worth far more than him but actually it's a really interesting point and the buddha himself said was it uh contentment is the greatest wealth and i think this is a really good framework and starting point for thinking about when we talk about wealth because look we've all seen the you know the rich people in the world let's take i don't know elon musk is one of them right i don't know him personally but having heard him speak and seeing some of the things the way he is i don't think he's particularly happy because he says it himself i think he self-diagnosed himself with some kind of mental health problems yeah um i think there was i remember him saying something like you know running a business or something to the regard of what he does is like chewing on glass and staring into the abyss doesn't sound like a lot of fun does it and i also remember hearing him criticize i think it was jeff bezos or something saying you're you're on yachts too much something like you should be trying to go to the boon and all that kind of stuff he always wants more it's never enough.

4:29And that is, you know, he's obviously obsessive. That's why he's had such incredible success, but at what cost? And for him, that's what he wants to do. And that's his lifestyle. And I'm not judging him for that. But I think that it's really easy to look at someone like him. In fact, he even says most people would not want to be me, right? It's really easy to look at him and go, oh, he's super rich. I'd love to be rich on that. But would you swap your life with them because i know i wouldn't no well even that kind of wealth because it's going to open up a whole barrel of problems that you're probably not ready for absolutely i mean you know people are going to want to sue you you know uh one asking you for money and you know all these you know um people coming trying to take things from you and and wanting your time so yeah so in terms of the the two worlds they do kind of work against each other to some degree but i do think you can interlink them and as I say having like this foundation of living by what are known as the five precepts uh and by the way I'm not really preachy about it or anything but it it for me um it's really the five the five oh you're testing me now so I mean one of them is uh speak the truth and not gossip uh one's not to drink alcohol uh sorry not drink alcohol uh take drugs that influence your mind so you know recreational drugs think of them um not kill so abstain from killing but you know you can take this further right so it's like there's a fly in the room i i don't i try not to kill them you know um that's why you see like um in the indian streets are brushing the road in front of the monks as they're walking right it's because they don't want to kill the animals in front of them they take it to that extreme ah i didn't know this Yeah, yeah, yeah.

6:14Which is nuts, but I mean, like, you know, I get it. Yeah. And then I think the other two are more to do with right mindfulness. And I think it's right. It's Samadhi, which I would translate as, because this is Pali. So right stillness. And they're more to do with meditation, but they go together. So, yeah. And look, that doesn't mean I've got all of those nailed and I don't make mistakes, But it forms a foundation and a framework for me to live by. And then when I'm making decisions, you know, when I'm running my business, when I'm thinking about my own money and managing that, I'm thinking about actually what are the most important things.

6:54Well, like, let's be curious out front. It's not like you're saying money doesn't matter because of what you do. And Naval obviously famously said it, you know, money does solve problems. And, you know, it can be this kind of battle that you have. I'm sure you have it with yourself quite regularly if you're practicing Buddhist. But do you agree that money genuinely can solve more problems than create them for many people? Well, wow. I think you could talk for a day on that. I would say, look, I think it's more, and this is where the mindset and the psychology is so important. It depends because if you obsess over the money, then no.

7:36and you know as humans a lot of us get greedy it's just within us but if you could have a healthy relationship with money then yeah and like you say naval said it doesn't get rid of all your problems but it gets rid of your money problems you know no one wants to be you know struggling to pay their bills and food etc and always worrying about money you know i'm in a very fortunate position where I just don't worry about money anymore that doesn't mean I'm not careful and I don't think about how I'm spending but not in a you know I just don't worry about it and I know if I want to buy that thing I can again within reason I've talked about a car but I think where if you can have build enough wealth as I say to get rid of your money problems and I mean one thing I would say is also I don't know if you're coming on to ask about this but the really important thing is defining what wealth means to you so to what it means to you and what it means to me it's gonna be different and i think where a lot of people trip up is they want the nice car and to all the material stuff you know i want the house i want the designer clothes i want to send my children to a private school the list goes on and what i'd say is there's nothing wrong with any of those things and you know if you've got more than enough money to do it fantastic and hopefully you enjoy it but what you don't want to do is have those things creating so much pressure on you that becomes a stress and even if i know people earning you know four hundred thousand and i really they're not happy at all and i can also see you know again not being judgmental but I think it's important to think about this, that they're always increasing.

9:29You know, they want everything and everything needs to sort of be at the top end. And so what I'd say to people is aim for if you're not, you know, you're not got enough money to do everything. Aim for like, I want the lovely holidays. That's my thing. Or I want the car. You know, I'm really into cars. So aim for something and that you think will be meaningful if you've got a family. maybe you know for me as an example i my one of my priorities was to be able to send my children to pro school so that was a big thing for me so it was like i don't live in a particularly big house you know massive um that was my focus um you've sacrificed in other areas to create the things of value that you want right and i think that's lovely you said that because you obviously that guy that's i think 400k i don't know it's a guy or a lady but the the um the way that they've then upgraded their life to that point it's probably preying on their happiness in some degree because there's always a nicer watch there was a nicer house there's never anything bigger you can always build a bigger house if you really wanted to so where do you find that balance of contentment and how do you bring that into your life yeah um what would you do in that example with that individual if they mean sean i'm unhappy how the hell do i like figure this out so i can start like putting some things in play that you know can live my life on my terms yeah and this is where it's really tricky right because you don't want to come across as judgmental i would try and break it down to talk about you know how you're actually feeling and talk about the psychology what is it you actually want and you know did that brand new car or whatever the thing is that you've they've bought how do you feel after it are you much more happier you know actually can you reflect out now some people really struggle with that and there are some people you just can't help as well and so you've got to want to do something you've got to want to be helped and I would start with trying to define you know what what is happiness for you and what do we need to do to get you there and also can we take some pressure off the high expenses yeah can we can we reduce those so that actually you're enjoying you know if you're going to earn that money it's very rare I'm yet to come across somebody who earns really good money he doesn't work really hard so enjoy the fact that you're working hard so then you can enjoy the money that you do have and feel the financial freedom that should hopefully give you and not keep comparing yourself to others.

12:05I suppose it's an identity in some way, really. It's like forging your own identity that you can be this individual about who you want to become. And that's going to lead you into those money decisions. It's going to give you much more clarity.

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13:26You can download gains for free and connect your first bank today the link is in the show notes or you can scan a qr code on screen and let's make life less expensive together yeah i think i think you touched upon a really important point there is you know we've most of us so pretty much all of us have an ego to some degree yeah and it's it's really easy to stoke that and especially when you do have some material success and in work etc and earnings and therefore thinking actually is this healthy is this and so when you asked about the buddhism one of the barometers i try to think about is it are my actions and things i'm doing making me are they wholesome or unwholesome i.e if i'm buying all these extra things and spending all this money is is that actually you know creating wholesome actions or less wholesome or actually maybe I could give some money away to a charity or to someone or to a friend maybe I'm out with a friend that I know who's lost their job and I'll pay for them not because I know I can afford it right I'm not going to do it if I can't but you know pay for something but not and not in a way obviously like I've you know I'm showing off but in a way of I remember one of my friends giving it's giving it's giving and and I remember I never forget one of my best friends uh on my stag do paid and that was when I drank um we were in Dublin paid for not to yeah exactly it wouldn't have been a great stag do would it if I wasn't drinking um and he paid for a meal for everyone and I was like why do you do that you know you shouldn't have done it and he was like I can afford it he was like it's just something I really wanted to do and I was like okay fair enough and good on you he was like if I can't spend my money with my friends who can I and again like it's like as you get older or certainly in my experience I think when you're younger and I think this is like a human nature thing when you're younger you're you're more selfish because you're trying to forge your own way in the world you know you start having kids and maybe you run of business you manage people and you start therefore teaching and helping other people and for me at this point I find that something so rewarding and and that is real education not you know studying a textbook or something and it's the oldest form of education so again that's a form of giving isn't it absolutely absolutely I want to ask you though like obviously you're seeing all of this kind of vast wealth spectrum across your your clients what's something that you know that that our audience could take away about how let's say for example pick someone a client in your mind you know obviously don't have to tell us who but someone who you feel like has has nailed it and that they're on the right track and they're doing the right thing what is something that they're doing that the others aren't doing that someone can put in play and it doesn't matter if they're earning 30 grand or 100 grand or 400 grand a year but they've really got that like you feel like when you look at them you're like yes mate yeah yeah and i think there's a formula to this right um a lot of it isn't also rocket science so i would start with the thing of defining what wealth is for you but even if you miss that so and there are a couple reasons for this by the way and being specific about it you don't have to do this i just think it's important for happiness is number one studies have shown that by doing so you're much more likely to achieve it interestingly actually I came across something I wrote down years ago in terms of business goals before I ran the business and I just by chance came across it and I realized we'd smashed through like all the most pretty much all the things and I said to my brother oh my god forgot about this completely forgot about it um so there is real power in that and also to be able to look back and then that constant wanting more this is something we talk about in Buddhism as well the craving that creates a lot of unhappiness so rather than constantly moving those goalposts you were mentioning earlier you know you want the nice what you want the nice of that so i think that's really important but then from there i would say the what and the other thing actually i would talk about and certainly on mindset is focus on the controllables and again there have been studies on this right that people who feel they've got some control over their life whilst let's face it a lot of life is out of control or we don't know what's going to happen um are real happier and and i tell you for example if i say to you because i was thinking about this earlier your life is totally out of control how does that immediately make you feel Oh, anxiety.

18:25Yeah, it's uncomfortable. So if I say, well, look, focus on the controllables. Can you focus on your career? Because thinking through my clients, I think all the wealthiest ones in terms of, you know, portfolios and assets have been successful in their careers. And that's where the money starts. not on should i invest in spacex or this next hot stock or crypto or whatever it is and so i would focus on career and just become great at something yeah you know or income if you're building a business yeah again it's still your career though so absolutely yeah so if you've got business focus on that make an amazing business and do you know what it's sometimes it's not that hard it's just and we'll talk about this we're investing but your career's an investment right but the compound just keep going like you i'm sure i mean interesting question for you you you've obviously had some success in what you do you've been doing it for how long now just over five years now yeah so but learning about it like a decade so just compounded there you are that's 10 years so 10 years and you just kept going right and actually you did you did a post the other day didn't you on linkedin about how you had a tough time found it hard but you didn't give up right kept going and you just keep going and that's a lot of people just give up i think if you just it's by definition if you keep going at something you're going to become greater right if you think about if you work hard and you try hard you can't really at some point not become very good at it it's just like you position yourself for luck yeah eventually it might come in year one and it might come in year 10 but if you didn't give up and you kept positioning yourself for luck luck will strike as you have to position yourself for luck if you don't position yourself you never receive it yeah and so like that's the way i look at this and just like that and i feel like i i said in that post i feel like i'm only just getting started i've been i've only just begun because there's so much work still to do in my eyes like this podcast is tiny in comparison to others I don't compare it to them obviously you do a little bit but you know like I know that I can carry on and help loads more people and all that means is that I need to continually show up because that's my controllable yeah I can control how many times I sit in this chair and have great chats with great people like yourself and that's like what I can control and so if i keep doing that and i keep making little one percent tweaks to the next episode okay next one i'm going to try a new thumbnail style or i'm going to throw a different power word into the title i can control that and then i can monitor that how does that make me feel how does the result show up blah blah blah is it on brand all of those things and then i can see that and i can see progress it's compounding and in any way shape or form and but it doesn't come easy no and then And it's not hard in some ways.

21:30It is hard, but it's not hard if you're just turning up, right? Well, that's the hardest thing about it is that it's not difficult. The hardest thing about it is that it's not hard. Why does that make it hard? Because it is about constant repetition and actually repeating the same thing over and over and over and over and over. I said this to some content creators. we were out in Cambridge yesterday and doing like a bunch of videos all day and we were all asking each other the same questions and by the end of it, some of them were a little bit tired and then I was like, look, having answered these questions probably a hundred times, you have no idea whether that is the first person that's seeing you answer that question.

22:15And that is when someone says go or that camera goes on, that's what I have to have in my head to be able to consistently because otherwise I just turn up and say, sort your pension out, grow your income, do a stocks and shares ISA, sinking funds, manage your money. That's personal finance in a nutshell. It's the million different ways it can be spun and it's about repetition to get that someone in someone's head. You can't expect someone to walk out of the studio and go, tick, I know everything I need to know about personal finance. It's not the case. They need to be fed it multiple times for it to go in and sink and then finally take action and it's the power of seven and all of those types of things has to like really sink in for that individual.

22:57So, you know, it's the same with this. It's constant repetition. Absolutely. So, yeah, I'd say, you know, if you focus on your career and whatever that is, whether it's running a business or an employee and therefore eventually you should have some decent earning. And then, you know, again, like some of this stuff, you know, is not rocket science, right? But they invest when they get bonuses. They invest monthly. When they change jobs, they sort their pensions out. And so, you know, I've had clients have come on with, say, 100 ,000 and now they've got over a million. And these are the things they've done.

23:39And again, talking about that compounding, to give you an example, if you invest a hundred thousand pounds and then contribute a thousand pounds per month in about 21 years that would be worth a million and sorry if it was growing at seven percent yeah right so average returns so we're not talking like ridiculous returns and yes there will be years where it drops a lot more and years where it could make more and it's not guaranteed and all that but it's if you just do that something like that you know it doesn't have to be those amounts you can see how the power of compounding and the power of time so i would say that career you know not spending more than what you have coming in i mean it's very sounds very basic but the amount of people like we were just talking about the lifestyle creep and all of that is so important to make sure that that is the starting point and then you invest the surplus and automate it so it's not a decision just comes out monthly you don't see that money and have the choice of spending it and just keep that going and then as I say you know invest it um and I think the big one is as I say is time you know um I think people away you know my experience especially when they first come to me uh very short term or if i just speak to you know people ask me when they find out what i do where should i invest now again we've mentioned this but you know it's more let's focus on those controllables and do the basics very well so that if you invest over the long term you know in something decent you will you I can't guarantee, but you will make money.

25:31I also found this really interesting. Warren Buffett, I read this the other day, so he's averaged about 20 % returns every year, which is obviously pretty exceptional. But when you think he's one of the rich... With dividends included, right? Yeah, I think that is dividends because it includes the point around this is the compounding, isn't it? And so he's invested since he was about 10 or 11. and he's now, I think he's about to turn 96.

26:04And he's made 95 % of his wealth since he's been over the age of 65. When he was 30, the estimates are that he was worth about$1 million and now he's worth about$140 billion. Berkshire FI market cap's like$380 billion. So yeah, it's nuts. And, you know, there have been other investors that have made far higher returns, but they just haven't done it as long. And that is the power of compounding and time in the markets. And so, you know, don't think I want to invest for a year or two. Try and try and think decades or. And again, it depends what your goals are. yeah well you know if you'd have taken me out of this today and took me back 10 years and told me that i'd be here today and 10 years later i would bite your hand off but i also would have respected the fact that i probably would have thought more could be done too but actually having been here where i am now and this is what i think i'm an average dude man i'm an average dude i went you know i went out and learned all of this stuff and fell in love with it and now i love teaching it and talking about it with people like yourself.

27:21And my life's completely different, completely different. I think you underestimate what you can do in a year, but you grossly underestimate what can be done in a decade. And you can flip your life around tenfold. And I'm very grateful for that now with that experience and wisdom to be able to look back. And it just makes me think like, wow, if I'm in this position and i can't and i have the same decade where am i going to be but now i'm battling with the like actually do i want all of that do i do i feel content if i do i want the five million pounds net worth and a big house like i don't know and and my goals have changed loads as well as as i've grown up and i've learned about myself and what i enjoy right that's why i asked about identity i've forged in myself my own identity i now know what i really want to do but i know how much it costs and it's actually a lot less than what i thought it would yeah um so actually the journey for me now i've taken a little bit of foot off the gas touch because i'm like not with life and career and business building or stuff like that and just from the pressure of like gotta get so much money into my investment pots gotta do all of this gotta do that because it just doesn't fill up my cup in the same way i also want to enjoy some of the some of my money now as well so yeah it's it's it's really interesting i think as a driven person it's really easy to fixate on the end goal and i want this and also not maybe having a defined end goal and therefore you're not enjoying the moment and and the journey and you know it's like we all hear it right and most of us need to learn this the hard way but basically if you're only if you're just so busy with your head down working hard that it's very easy to get carried away and then you get buzzed it don't you if i want more i can see portfolios going more i can see how we get more money if i just put a bit more in and now i've got more the compound of even more and and then you actually um just become obsessed over this stuff totally and like i had a moment uh quite recently i spoke about this on my socials like you know i haven't invested a penny in nine months um because i'm moving to the house moving to the really old property and unfortunately first couple of months it decided to be the time that it started falling apart so we spent thousands of pounds like doing it back up our emergency fund got whacked so let me focus on rebuilding the emergency fund back up and we've had a lot going on and during that time frame my investments have just moated ahead earning if well when i look at on a 12-month annual just under the uk under average salary so i'm like that that's what's happening in that time frame but it's still grown and obviously i could have carried on contributing more but there was a different period of life like i was in a different season and i needed to like move things around and this is what i think people can put themselves in these positions to be able to make those kind of decisions by just doing the basics um so we've got figuring out your values in your life and where you want to get to we've got control the controllables one of them's career is there anything else in that around controllables specifically um well the expenses right you know just it's can i control what i spend yes you know on a personal example uh my wife you know it's really hot at the moment right and she wants some extra fans in her house and she didn't bother buying any fair play for wearing the three piece out in this heat it's actually pretty nice but um yeah and she borrowed some for for from some friends um because she wanted a few more and i was like it's a really nice fan and i was like i wonder how much it costs it's like 170 quid and i'm um you know again i don't want to pass judgment on people but i know these people have been struggling for money i would not i would think about spending that money on a fan we've got like a 60 quid fan which i didn't think was overly cheap but obviously not the most expensive and blows air it blows air you know and it's like and and And this is, you know, can't fit the aesthetic of the room.

31:30Yeah. And it's not got like, you know, all the options, but is it doing 80 % of the job? Yeah. You know, and I've, again, experienced things like, you know, buying that really nice fan. Okay. Do I get much more out of it? Not really. You probably get an 80, 90 % out of just having a bog standard one. And that's true for most things in life. Mate, mine's 10 quid. I've got 10 quid from Tesco. You need to tell me. it's very ugly and it's massive but it does the job and then it goes in the cupboard you know it comes out at night when you want to go to sleep so it's like you can control those things and be be very purposeful is what i'd say about where you're spending your money and that doesn't mean you have to be like so anal about everything if you've got the money that you you're stressed but again it's and i would say also when people are younger i sacrificed quite a lot when i was you know I didn't used to I used to go out and drink and but I would have you know I wouldn't do that every night of course and I would think about how much I'm spending I wouldn't then go out during the week and and go out for dinner I was like well I would rather cook my own dinner you know health is very important in this whole equation as well right I can be far more healthy eat better food and spend less so I'll do that it doesn't mean I might not meet up my friend or what have you but I won't go out for the for the meal or we'll do something else and and every now and again you will go out for the meal but again it's just like or I won't go on the but it's the it's the oh I'm out Tuesday then I'm out Thursday then I'm out Saturday night in the pub then I'm meeting up for someone for a roast on Sunday and that could you do one of those that's the point right it's like yeah you don't have to you want to spend time with friends right you want to spend time with loved ones that is really important could they come around and now we have a fake away and a beer at a house or whatever instead of the you know 100 quid that you've just dropped yeah and you can have dinner parties as well right i mean that they don't they're not always super cheap but if you've got a group of friends where you can swap it around and then you know people bring if you drink bring your own alcohol but you provide the food and then next time they do it and you can again you don't have to buy you know the most expensive food but you can do a lovely meal um we love this thing of like just looking at where your spending is and when you're looking out the line you just write next to it like a cross or a tick yeah so it's like and you want to try and get to the end of like your spending for the month when you're doing your little check in and have way more ticks than crosses if there's more crosses than ticks you've got a problem and so like how did and and people think that okay i can flick a switch and next month's going to be different in some cases yes but vastly many of those crosses will take you two three four months even years to correct because you've locked into a mortgage you're locked into a x y and z rental property or whatever that might be so how can you figure things out move things around to try and get those ticks you like yes this is and the tick is like this fills up my cup this makes me feel good um and once you get to the end and if you can do that then like you're laughing if you get through one month and there's not one cross in there i'll be absolutely gobsmacked yeah there's always one thing there's always a decision you end up making on the fly that you're just like i shouldn't have made that but you know you just live and you learn and then you know if you learn from your mistakes you end up better off and personal finances everyone takes a step backwards they always do but if you're taking two forwards and as long as the backwards step isn't that catastrophic you're going to move forwards yeah and i've really i'm a big fan of marginal games by the way so it's like can i just improving these one or two things like don't don't bog yourself down or if you're like don't want to go through every expense every month and all this well just sit down once and do it and say oh yeah i forgot i was paying for amazon prime netflix and disney it's like do you need all those three like if you really want just maybe just have one um or do you even watch it or have you not watched it for two months just cancel it and then if you want to redo it do it but you know it's again having all the things it's having everything so definitely expenses are something that is is well within everyone's control and then you know by definition if you have less going out than coming in you can't be poor right so it's that basic and then invest the surplus and you've you've talked about sinking fund i don't think we need to talk about probably too much unless you want to but you know uh invest that and and again for the long term yeah yeah and someone getting started like looking at that sort of build let's say for example somewhere i walk into your office tomorrow and we sit down and go through my financial plan i've got none none of the right accounts open what would you be looking with for at that stage would you be doing would it be pension or a stock and sheds isa or combination of the two

36:31A little break in the episode here. Have you guys been meaning to write or update your will, but just keep putting it off? You might have done everything right to protect your financial future while you're here. Your savings are building, your ices are ticking over, maybe you own a home and you've been contributing towards your pension. But what about after you're gone? And that is where a will comes in to make sure the people you love are protected when you are not here. Financially and emotionally too, saving them time and stress when they're going to need it most. Without a law, the laws of intestancy decide what happens, and that does work for some people, but for others, they want to say in something this important.

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38:02Well, it all starts with your objectives, right? So what are you trying to achieve here? So one thing that is really important when we talk about investing, I always talk to people about clients and prospective clients is there's how you invest and that's the tax side of it. And then there's the where, the asset allocation or whatever the thing is you invest in. and so if you start with what are we trying to achieve here i don't know is it an early retirement is it i want a pot of this size is and then if so but why right um you know i have people obviously come to about inheritance tax planning i have people that say i'm just paying way too much tax because you know they're high earners but they can't clobber with tax and i'm like what can i do to be more tax efficient and you know try and work towards an early retirement so it would start from there if you're just generally talking about what say building just trying to build some wealth yeah yeah i just need to build myself a little part i need to get started at least so i would say that the pensions and isis are the first two go-tos right they're pretty much the most tax efficient ways of investing in the uk the benefit to an isa is you know it's 100 tax-free right any growth with any income, any capital gain, you can be a nicer millionaire and you can do what you want with it.

39:25While it's in there, it's all tax-free. There's also not a limitation in terms of age, right? So you can access it whenever you want. The pension is way more tax-efficient up front. So assuming you are earning money, you get full tax relief on it, right? And if you're a business owner, you get corporation tax relief as well. And so again, depends on your situation. and often it's both so the downside to the pension i'm sorry whilst it's in the pension it's 100 tax-free 25 of it normally is is uh tax-free on the way out and the rest hopefully can be managed to be as tax efficient as possible where will be taxed to your marginal rate so if the downside sorry to pensions is you can't access them to your 57 so if you say well i want have the flexibility of you know accessing it sooner if you're younger then you don't want to put too much there um in terms of again depends what your goals are but again if we talk about investing think about long term so why not that the at the moment as well what we're living in the highest tax burden since one war two since records began yeah and take advantage of the tax breaks out there so most people don't so you've got ice allowance you've got pension allowance and don't forget if you're married or you've got a lifetime sort of partner, you can use their allowances as well, certainly ISAs.

40:53So, yeah, in terms of tax environments, they're the first two go-tos, pensions and ISAs, definitely, because they are so tax efficient. Put it like this, you know, if you have an investment that performs amazingly but then you lose, you know, half of it in tax, well, you could have had a worse investment but netted more. So that's why you cannot take that away in isolation. And that's actually the first place I start. And then we look at sort of the actual investment. Yeah, yeah. It's a tough one, isn't it? Because I think people struggle with pensions because of that locked up aspect of it. I've also struggled with this myself recently.

41:33I'm a business owner, so I don't want to pay more in corporation tax. So I utilize my pension and it's grown significantly because of that. I'd much rather put money in the stocks and shares as I say. And then my personal reasons for that is, you know, I'm 36 years young, even though on TikTok I get told like I'm 56 because of the tough paper round and all of that. No, in all seriousness, the aspect of me thinking 20 years from now, do I know what the world's going to be like, actually frightens me, to be frankly honest. And so this is not financial advice, but I personally struggle with putting more into my pension than I should because I'm like, am I going to need some of that money in liquid form, i.e.

42:21a stock and shares, ISO, or savings before then? And so I struggle with that a touch, even though I know it's more tax efficient, I know it's more less. So I play around with that. And I think it's a constant battle around that because I think if you'd have asked someone 20 years ago, those, you know, what's the planet going to be like today? They've probably said, oh, it's going to be blowing up and it's going to be World War III, Armageddon, you know, that type of thing. But it hasn't been. And things have carried on motoring on. So I think that kind of fear and stuff will never go. Obviously, I think it's been amplified because of AI.

42:54And then I think it's been taken back. And you've got Elon Musk saying money won't exist in 2036. And you look at that and think, well, why am I putting money in my pension then? but then also he can be extremely wrong and has been and so i think you've got to like weigh these things up if a client asks you these types of questions how do you manage that with them well actually recently not too long ago i had someone approached a business owner earning you know a lot of money but a business worth quite a bit of money and he said i need some help but by the way so i hadn't said anything at this point i'm not interested in pensions i'm just not so I said okay fine I understand that I said but I when I was talking to him also it wasn't necessarily my first thing I said I asked him why and then I said he's I just don't believe and I can't remember his exact reason I said well look you know I'm qualified child financial planner I kind of have an obligation to just I said it might not be of interest and that's fine but I've just got to explain it to you because if I don't um then I'm not doing my job and when I explained how they work and how tax efficient they are I was quite surprised uh at the end he said so this was a phone call actually and then I had a meeting with him when I met him he said oh by the way you completely sold me on the pension so I'm gonna have it and I was oh actually you know but the the point is is there's often that perception that pensions are a waste of time and then there's that other point that you make around uncertainty long term do we trust that we could have our money or where will the world be and what i would say with that is go for a marginal gain like you know can you afford to put a hundred pounds five hundred thousand whatever is affordable for you and just do that and do it regularly because if you do invest for the long term and do it wisely you should build some significant wealth.

44:58I think the key point you make there is do something. Don't do nothing. Yeah. So it's like you don't have to feel like... We're talking about optimal this over here, 1 % over there. Do something. Do something. Just start. Just start and then review it. Actually, my pension's done really well and actually a year later I'm earning a bit more. Can you just increase that a little bit and then just keep doing that? And that is a really good point. And that's why I said it depends on your objectives. If you want to have, you're a business owner, right? Typically business owners want some more control over their money.

45:34And if that's important to you, then that's a valid reason not to put all your money into a pension. It depends on the amounts you have. But again, you know, if you're married, you can use your wife or your husband's ITA allowance. So that's 40 grand a year. But you can immediately do it. My missus is a boss, so she's an absolute baller, fair play to her. She's smashed it. So I can't use her. Okay. Well, she's using it though, right? Yeah, and she's worked extremely hard to do that. I want to ask you, like, obviously people are doing all of this work. They're getting to these points. And is it for you around peace of mind or is it around choice and freedom or is it a combination of these things?

46:23What is it that's like the underlying metric that we're all, that people are listening to the show for? Like, what are they really trying to get?

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47:45And now back to the episode.

47:50yeah and this is something i think that people other people should also think about what is it for you but certainly from my point of view we're looking to provide sounds cheesy but provide people with financial peace of mind and you know that also that there's a nod to the buddhism there in terms of peace of mind and peace because again why is it that you want to build material wealth and money it's not to worry about it and you know that's a common problem i see as well especially with things like inheritance tax people get to a point where then there's and they get so worried about their money and that there can be inheritance tax and there are things you can do but it's like sometimes you have to remind people that this is a good problem to have and by the way you can plan for it but don't let it completely stress you out and have sleepless nights around it because then you're detrimental to your health which is then meaning your life shorter and and you know again sounds cheesy but is there any wealth without health no in my opinion um you know and and so it's so important to to make sure that you're healthy so yeah it's only the um peace of mind and what was the other point you made there um like freedom and choice around decisions because a lot of us are locked into a lifestyle that we haven't chose and they want to try and choice and freedom is that number so for me that one's massive because just in my personal experience uh I was talking to my wife about this the other day uh I was like you know I'm at a point in my life where I'm you know we talk about moving home and I was like look I'm for many years I've always been really cautious frugal with my spending you know you know look I've done things like we're on a stad doing I paid to go on a helicopter ride I'm not saying I never enjoyed myself I on track days but I'm I'm very purposeful about my spending it's the way I'd put it and so for the first time I've felt in recent years I've got to a point where I don't really have to think too much about my spending uh again I keep it in check and that's a beautiful place to be where you know we went to a football match on on Saturday and my wife said and so my wife doesn't really work by the way so I I earn most of the money she um you know she looks after the kids so uh that's a bigger job than what i do and way more valuable by the way so different different job yeah just work yeah exactly and and she was like oh i want this top and i was like if you want it get it you know and and that for me was like lovely that i could just she she's a bit worried because i manage the finances and she's not sure and she's good with money just just get it just get it and and those kind of choices now that top not going to make us super happy what football game are you at afc wimbledon oh right nice yeah so i wanted to go because we live not far from wimbledon uh and my son's actually in the pre-academy there is he yeah so i thought uh and also i know other people that have been and it's a really it's a really cool homely club isn't it yeah it's really nice like the when we were there queuing up to get the tickets a lady came over started helping us and then i said oh they said have you been before and i said no it's the first the first match two kids they're seven and a three-year-old and she's like oh wait there came over gave them womble badges oh nice yeah it's good little touches like that yeah so you know that was just one example but again but that was choice and that was choice freedom and not feeling the pressure of because for a lot of the time when i was spending you always feel like a little bit bad you know um and yeah and again like the choice of i can send my son and my daughter to a private school um and actually it's turned out better than i thought i built up you know investments to be able to fund that but at this point i haven't needed to draw on them but i will do everything and we're talking about you know maybe moving house and if we do that i don't for me my the investments are really important not to touch them or certainly you know if i if i've got flexible eyes to take some out but i'll make sure i'll put it back if i do so yeah I think that is massive and then that goes back probably to then if you think about it a controllable doesn't it you feel in control that I've it's not out of control yeah what I think that someone can take away from this to put choice and freedom back into their life today and I love this is something called the anti-budget so I talk about this where or guilt free spending it's also called it's like you know let's say you're earning three grand a month for example and everything comes out and you've got a bit of spending money left over and you don't really manage it very well what i do now is i put 200 crd away into a pot and it's not much but it's money that i'm like if i was at that football game and i wanted that shirt i'd buy it and i don't feel anything because i've already just gone like that and given myself permission to use the money um in a way that i see fit and obviously you know if you're hand to mouth and you're struggling to sort of pay the rent and and all of those things are very different and of course you're not going to put guilt-free spending into play then but you can put a fiver in there and go and buy your you know the nice cake that you want from the bakery it's exactly the same mentality and it just gives you because we work so hard and it just gives you this like okay this is why i'm doing this and it since i've done it and it's just such a nice episode and you know i have edged it up over time and i probably would continue to do that and but the most important thing is is that i have to spend it as well oh really so yeah you have to spend it that's interesting you have to spend it you can't leave the money in the pot has to go um and so like by doing that i it's allowed me to be a little bit freer it's allowed me to go into the farm shop and buy the extra you know the nice expensive steak because i can but then next week because i've spent it i can't you know i've got to be a bit careful and so but again it gives me those moments in my life now rather than waiting until i've got two million quid in my investment pot right and so i think it like being able to do things with your money as you're growing and living on the journey and just is quite powerful i think that's really important and i love that and i love the when you i was just imagining you know you buying that cake or something if you think if you've got friends family and you're going with them you're really going to enjoy that when when you're constantly buying them and becomes normal right so actually arguably if you've got less money and you just put a small budget to that you're probably going to enjoy even more than someone with more money because it's a treat and it's guilt free so yeah I think that's really really powerful and a great tip for for people the one this month is the new Arsenal shirt drop you're a Spurs fan aren't you I'm going to leave you're Spurs mate we were getting on so well we were getting on to this episode it's not coming out no yeah but like it's imprinted on me but like that was my guilt free this month and unfortunately now they're like 100 odd quid that's ridiculous isn't it it's nuts isn't it but like that's my guilt free and so it's done it's out the way i've got 40 50 quid left in there so i did top myself up with a few extras on the show and stuff but like now it's cool and i know that's there and you know i think it's it's just a really nice way of just going oh cool like i don't feel any kind of crap about that and it's just one thing for me and it doesn't have to be a lot of money it can make a massive difference to your well-being around how you're doing things is that that little one moment of choice and freedom could be quite powerful it can carry you when you're in a quite a tougher situation or money's a bit tighter yeah definitely and the the other thing is i sit on the other end where people are so very frugal or you know they they get to a point in their life where they've got you know million a few million however million it is or whatever the money is, but they then realise, I'm not going to spend this and I'm going to get taxed 40 % on it.

56:10How am I going to spend this? Yeah, yeah. Well, they're just not going to. So enjoy, if you're being sensible about it, enjoy, it's that whole thing of enjoying the journey as well, isn't it? I'd rather have less of a massive investment pot at the end. I mean, what the hell am I going to do with it? Unless I'm obviously like structuring it for kids and stuff like that. But even then it's like, you know, do they need all of that? You know, should they be forging their own paths? this is a battle that you have to play i don't like i don't want to leave them with nothing but i don't want to leave them with loads either like it would be a bad idea so um i think you know but yeah there's certain things in my life though if i do have eventually have kids and like i think there's certain things that i want to do i went to private school until i was 11 and i think it was like the most grounding thing that could ever happen to me and then i went to a normal secondary school after that um and so i've seen all sort of different divides of the wealth spectrum and but I was that you know three to eleven made me into like yeah I was made me into the person I am today like it was the most grounding I could speak fluent French fluent Latin at eleven like and so it would I have had those experiences and would I would have wanted my kids to have that yeah I would I would I think it would be really cool for them um but I think it's about like what and so I respect your private school things for the kids because it's a goal of mine if I do have kids too.

57:35I think it would be cool to do that for them and give them that opportunity. But I'm not going to be handing them out like, you know, treats galore and here's the keys to the Monaco yacht and fly yourself in the private jet. It's just not me. It's not my style. I don't think I'd ever do that with them. I want them to learn pain. I want them to learn rejection and get up and selling and doing all these things. And I think you only really get that if you don't hand everything to them on a silver platter. Yeah, so I am a parent, as I've said, and it's something I'm really conscious of. So actually, when we were out of the foot, my son wanted the shirt.

58:14And normally I always say no when we go to a shop unless it's a special occasion or something. And I said, okay, but you've got to do something for this. You've got to earn it. So actually, last night I took home some leaflets for my business. and I said, I haven't told him yet actually, but he's going to have to, I did say, you have to think of something. First of all, I said, see if you can think of something, why you think you should, what job you could do. Obviously he hasn't come back to me. Terrible seven-year-old. But I'm going to give him the leaflets, and I'll take him, and I did this last year as well, and I ended up giving him like 20 quid.

58:52We did like three hours or something of it. Knocking on doors? yeah just put them through letterboxes yeah yeah yeah um good manual work yeah so look we have someone who does thousands and thousands for us but uh and i'm not expecting to generate any business on it it's i want him to learn the value of money and as you say i'm not going to get it perfect but i want i want him to learn that he has to work and my daughter as well and not over spoil them and this is where it's really difficult when you do have a bit of money it's like yeah i wanted enjoys i wanted him to have the shirt i get excited but i also don't want him to just always saying i get a shirt we're going to a football match and yeah and then what's next yeah and then like you're saying you you will see it with kids you know and then we had some christmas where we we got on too many presents and they just they become manic they're just ripping open not looking at next you know and it's like what am i actually teaching my childhood like the worst things ever yeah not abundance no and and actually you know you think about you in your career right you've what's been enjoyable probably partly i don't know you tell me like the working hard and seeing the fruits of your labor the pain yeah if i look back now the best times where like just before it went nuts right like just before like when you're like really in the weeds like if i try this maybe it can go like that's when i was like that was actually really really cool now it's like you have to find a different type of energy a different type of like to come back with a and you have to like find different ways of motivating yourself and create enemies that don't exist because i don't have any enemies anymore my enemy that didn't exist was like i don't have any money from my business i need to make my business make money so i can do the things i want to do now i don't have that problem like well what's the next problem like what was the enemy that i can create in my head that can yeah drive me to the next the next thing that's the way i drive myself i'm strange like that i have to have a fictitious enemy um it helps me move but mate i've loved this it's been an incredible chat I knew it would be the moment I talked to you.

1:01:13And I also really would love the different side of the way you think. Because it's not just like, yeah, give me all your money and I'll make you loads of money and there's nothing to it. You really think about the person and the way that they're growing and what they're moving towards. And I think that's obviously come from your teachings and your retreats that you do with the Buddhist approach to it, which is lovely. Where do you want to send people, man? uh yeah look if you want to check me out um i'm actually just about to launch a personal brand website so if you uh you google me you'll find that um but you know at the moment definitely linkedin we're actually just launching also a podcast me and my brother called beyond the business uh love that yeah and you know my my business mlp wealth but um if you look me up um you'll find me but i'm posting pretty much daily on linkedin and yeah take it for an hour and we'll We'll leave all those in the show notes.

1:02:06We'll leave all those in the show notes for everyone. And so, yeah, check Sean out. You know, he reached out and just a really cool message and a really nice way of thinking. So, yeah, thank you, man. It's been a real pleasure. And, yeah, we'll catch up soon. Well, thanks for having me. And, yeah, just also big up to you and what you're doing. I think one thing I've, you know, thought and talk about a bit is that financial education is just shocking. And we don't learn it in school. We learn algebra, but this stuff we don't. So good on you for putting this out there and keep doing it, man. I'm working hard even when it's tough.

1:02:40Thank you, brother. Appreciate it, man. Cheers. So I've been working on something super exciting for the last 12 months, and I am very, very proud to finally bring it to you. And it is called Gains App. My whole thing with this was we've been speaking to many of you guys about the rising costs of living and how hard it is to actually manage your money. So I thought, why not actually solve this and build something for you guys that you can use every single day? So Gainsab is literally that. You can connect all of your banks in one single place and see exactly what's going on with your spending.

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