Italian chef Giorgio Locatelli on his new restaurant at London's National Gallery

0:12Hello and welcome to the Monaco Weekly. I'm Fernando Gusto Pacheco, and on today's show, I speak with Italian chef Giorgio Locatelli about his new restaurant, Locatelli, at London's National Gallery. It was a pleasure to welcome him to our studio.

0:32Giorgio Locatelli, what a pleasure. Giorgio, I'm a bit of a fan here, I have to admit, you know, I used to go often to Locando Locatelli, it was a favorite of mine, and when I saw the news that you're going to be at the National Gallery, I was so happy. My first question to you, I think, how did this project happen? Were you invited by the National Gallery? Did you knew the space? So tell us about how did this happen, Giorgio? Okay, what happened was that, you know, we come, you know, our contract with the hotel, the owners of the hotel come to a stall on the 20 years. And so for three years, we kind of like went up and down and talking and tried to really get a solution to sign other five years.

1:16Obviously, it was impossible to move them, and their demands were completely unreasonable. It wouldn't work for us financially to run a restaurant with what they wanted from us. And so we kind of like decided with my wife at the start of last year, we start, okay, we give him one year notice, and we finish at the end of the year. So we give the year notice, say, okay, on the 31st of December we finish. in February I was just chatting with somebody and I say that I'm going to take a couple of years off I really want to go to Australia I really want to go to Japan I really want to go but you know in reality in the last 30 years yes we took some holiday here and there but you know there was always one week here one week there when you carry the weight of the restaurant you really cannot take a month holiday you really can't especially because both of us work on it So both of us, if one is missing, that's okay.

2:13And the other one can really look into that. With my wife, it was just so difficult, you know, to take more than a couple of weeks off. So we never had big travel. So we usually go to Italy and things like that. So our dream was to go to Japan and go all the way around the other way. So down to Australia and then coming the other way, Tahiti and so on, coming back the other way. And, you know, and take, you know, like six months or one year, something like that. just really like something really nice for us. And I would just say, just talking about it with this gentleman from Paul, you know, I would just say, you know, I want to do that.

2:48And he said, you know, well, you know, we're looking to get this contract for the National Gallery. And I say, you know, well, look, the National Gallery would never take an Italian restaurant, you know, it's a National Gallery, it's 200 years old building, they would want something very British, something very... I said, why don't you just, we have them around for lunch one day, about 10 of them. And they say, you know, we had a quick chat and we told them what our vision was, which, you know, my vision was that, you know, I felt that Locanda have come to a point that it became a little bit elitistic to it there.

3:30Just for the price, you know, we could not really afford to sell the price at less than that. Our profitability was just so little anyway. But, you know, the idea was that, you know, I really like this idea that Italian food is such a big equalizer and there is no class on our food. The Prime Minister and the Pope today, I think they will have a worse meal than some farmer up in the mountain or in Tuscany. So there's no class attached to that. But, you know, like the French food has classes and the English food even worse, you know. So we don't have that. It's the same food for everybody. So, you know, I was thinking, like, I would like to go back to start to do exactly what we used to do, you know, well before Zafferano.

4:21And just go back to really do some really good food, really well presented, but not decorated, not worked. small dishes and something that comes quite fast and something that is really direct for its quality and for its truthfulness. Not like a prostrating sort of thing of the genius of the chef. Just Italian food. And so I'd say that to them and obviously I cooked them a meal and I cooked quite a rough meal, you know. And, you know, it was spring, but, you know, it was the start of the spring and I still put in some polenta, put in some really fair farmer fairs. And they loved it. They loved it and there was about 21 people on these things to try to get the contract because it was a big contract.

5:19But obviously we associated with the Searsis, which, you know, they're very good at doing trotter, at doing things like that. They're doing a little... I went to visit a lot of the, like, Buckingham Palace and Royal Albert Royal Museum. And so I thought that the quality was really constant. And, you know, we're not trying to do something creative. We're not trying to do something, you know, we really start to do something. We're turning something that was like a destination food into like a service food for everybody. And obviously, you know, I say, okay, I want to do this, but I want to have complete control on the price.

5:58I want the price to be really, you know, I don't want to go there and do another locanda. Otherwise, there's no points for me. You know, the point is to go there and do something that is for everyone. And so, you know, obviously the conditions are good. The rental is on percentage. So there is all these things, you know, the cost of running it. And we can transmit this saving that we're making that a normal stand-alone restaurateur cannot onto serving this food as a very high-quality produce but carry a premium price. It doesn't carry a premium price. And, you know, you also have a bar downstairs.

6:37Yeah. And one thing that, you know, first of all, it looks so beautiful. It does make me feel that I'm in Italy as well. There is an Italian kind of something you would find in Milan, right? Yeah. Or any other, you know, city perhaps in the north of Italy. It's very chic at the same time. Yeah, it's kind of like, you know, obviously we want the people, you know, this idea. I mean, we've been conned. So Italians were well ahead with their coffee, their coffee culture for years. You know, you're going to a bar in the morning, you know, which is like we have in England, you don't even know what a bar is.

7:12Yeah, wine bar, that's what they call it. But, you know, bar to us is where you're going to have your coffee in the morning. And the culture of the coffee, the idea that it's an espresso, an espresso, you know, you don't... When somebody says, can I have an espresso to take away? The person should be allowed to have an espresso. An espresso is not to take away. It's not to be served in this bloody plastic little thing, you know. An espresso is something that, you know, it took no hundreds, but many years to work out how this machine works, the extraction, the temperature, to get this cremosity.

7:47It should be drinking into a china, thick, warm, and you should have five minutes. That's why it's called an espresso, because you're taking five minutes and you're talking to the guy, so you're having a break. You know, an espresso to take away is just an abomination. You know what I mean? and so and then there we we kind of fight a lot my wife was like very very very specific about it and you know I just let her go for it how the display needed to be what we want to put in it we wanted to do this maritozzi which is you know they are this kind of like a brioche and this can be salted or sweet and so we thought it could be for both all through the day and then you know the coffee is all on China we don't serve it And, you know, of course, sometimes somebody wants to take away, but you can't.

8:40If you're listening to this, do not ask for a coffee. Do not ask for a coffee to take away when I'm there, because otherwise I'm going to go at you, you know. George, another fascinating thing, I went to an event, of course, at Locatelli. It was a very special event where, you know, we were eating after seeing this beautiful, you know, art from Caravaggio. I mean, of course, there was a very specific event which we can talk about it. But do you think your food this time, your menu, is a little bit influenced by the art you see at the National Gallery? Well, I kind of like, you know, one of the greatest advantages of being part of the team of the National Gallery is that you get in half an hour before everybody.

9:27So the gallery is open at 10, you at 9, 15. you can walk in the gallery the lights are on and you're there on your own with this unbelievable painting and it's amazing it's one of those things it really is the painting are beautiful already when there is people but when you're there on your own somehow they get this magical almost they talk to you and yes, I do kind of like got really fascinated about different type of art because obviously some of the italian art that was there i knew what it was so i was always a little bit in love with caravaggio and what he did so so the dinner and manus which inspired that dinner you know bits by bits from the bread to to to the wine to the actually chicken and and all the ingredients and they are on a painting well on the dishes and we did and then finishing with the idea of this bloody uh dessert you know with with the beetroot was incredible.

10:32It was very nice to work with the boys and the girls, because, you know, the chef is actually a girl, and take her upstairs to the gallery and look at the painting together and try to get some idea. And so, yes, the process was very, yeah, artistically, yeah, it was the art that really inspired the menu. And now I kind of like, we start to look, I was with Andrew Graham Dixon, which is, you know, a whole friend of mine. We were walking around and we stopped to see the Velázquez. Because, you know, there is the venerian of Velázquez, which is obviously the best looking bottom that you can see in London.

11:14That one is that. And it's just such a beautiful painting. And then before that, you have like three, then they are like, they call it the bodega. So there was like when he was, Velázquez was about 20. before it got picked up by the king, he used to do this painting that were kind of like religious-related, but also with the set. And so you have one with fish, one with garlic. So, and Andrew was taking me through, because you see, it's kind of like when you have somebody explain you the painting, then you really kind of like get an inspiration from that. So kind of understanding it is very, very important.

11:52And, you know, so I was, you know, I was, yesterday I was there, I was there for half an hour looking again and thinking like maybe that's what we do. We'll do a Velázquez dinner. And we'll do the same thing. The idea is brilliant. You know, the people come. They have something like they gather. They have a drink or something like that. And then we can take them up, look at the three paintings, and then come back and then go through the menu with them. You know, it works. And you have so much material there to do that, right? Amazing. Amazing. You know, it's like, you know, the dirts are incredible.

12:26all the early dirt charts. And so there is so much there that you can pick. And then sometimes, you know, it's not even, because at the moment almost I'm only kind of like focusing on the actual food that is there. You know, I'm sure them slowly will come up and we'll pick the emotion. And it's nice to see then some of the guys and some of the girls that work for us when they have this little break in the afternoon, instead then go out or go smoking or whatever or go to the pub or whatever. They go out to the gallery. And so you think, wow, we started maybe something really nice in this. You know, it's working.

13:03And food-wise, you mentioned that this is not, you know, a new look and a locateli. No. This has its own kind of identity as well. I wonder if you can tell us a bit more about that. You said you wanted something a bit more, you know, it doesn't necessarily need to be super, you know, crazy expensive, but, you know, hearty, simple, but delicious at the same time. I was looking at the menu. It was like the filetto di cernia, the tortelloni di zucca. I was like, wow. Well, obviously, we will be very seasonal all the time because the menu is not so big. You know, in Locanda, we had 36 dishes, and then it would be 12 desserts and the ice cream on top.

13:43So you're going up to 48 dishes altogether. And that's a lot of work. But, you know, it was like with 26 chefs, and, you know, we baked the bread and everything else as well. Here we are a little bit restricted for the space that we have. So we have to be a little bit more direct on that. And, you know, we will work. Obviously, Circe would like to change the menu only four times. But I want to at least change it eight times a year. Because I think, you know, there is quite a lot. I didn't think about it. I didn't expect it to be so much return business. That's a lot of people that come almost every month.

14:25And so now that they are six months also that we are open, we kind of see the frequency of these people. Then they're coming in. Some people come twice a month. And these are the people that really is a leisure. So they're coming in. Maybe there is the new exhibition. Then they come for lunch. Or they come to see something in the gallery. And they come for lunch. Or otherwise, they meet before they have lunch. And then they go to the gallery. So, and this is like, there is a pattern to this, which, you know, I thought that we open a restaurant, every day would be somebody different from all over the world.

14:57But, you know, the booking is going well. And, you know, we kind of like holding it down to 30, 40 percent. And we allow 60 percent of the restaurant to be ready for the walk-in. Because I think this is a very important thing. and it doesn't have to feel like, you know, oh, you know, I like this natural idea, you know, like in Italy you don't book. I love to not book. Yeah, no, of course, in Michelin star restaurant, things like that, now they've got all in at you and everything. But, you know, I remember that, you know, like on Sunday in our restaurant, no one books. And we knew that we were going to do 100 people, but no one books.

15:39Nobody picked up the phone and called, oh can you keep me a table unless there was a big celebration that they needed a cake well then they would maybe come around and say something like oh can i have the cake or whatever because i need a bigger table but otherwise you know the normal the table of four six a family thing like they didn't book and you know and i like this this spontaneity of having a lunch what we're doing let's have a lunch and you go for a lunch and it's a nice lunch that is life like this idea I got to be there at 8 o 'clock. I got to be dressed so much. I got to live at 9.30.

16:15And, you know, I have a minimum spending. Like, you know, that's not hospitality. Hospitality is about you. The door is open and you're hospitable. You know, this is what, and, you know, obviously, hold on. I don't want to, then sounds like, you know, of course, then there is a restaurant and they have certain amount of expenses. and especially if you run a standalone restaurant, you really need to hit your target. So booking, timing and things like that, all these are in place in order for you to be profitable at the end of the day, pay all your people and pay all the, otherwise you're closing.

16:56And, you know, we are allowed to have this now. We are allowed, it's a great, for me, it's a great advantage at the moment than I have because I can allow this spontaneity to be there in our restaurant. And it looks really nice. I love you mention this because I feel I like the music, the food scene here in London. But I think there is that problem for me that everything needs to be booked, you know. So, for example, you can't sometimes be spontaneous. But I'm glad there are chefs like you who are trying to change that a little bit. Yeah, you see, it's an economic, it's a financial thing, you know.

17:34and I understand, you know, we were doing the same in Locanda, you know, we needed to know how many people we had in, because if we didn't hit our targets, it was easy to lose money in one day. Like, you know, with the expenses that you had, or no show, things like that. You know, if you miss a table of six one night, you know, if you have a 50-coverts restaurant, and you miss a table of six, that's a tenth of your taking. You know what I mean? is a lot of money and that maybe is exactly what your profit was going to be. So you'd be there all day working and everybody got paid and everybody got paid but you didn't get paid at all because of that table didn't turn out.

18:14So I understand that. It's not, and I understand why the people do it. But I still like this idea that at 5.30, 6 o 'clock, you know, you go to your wife, you like to go for dinner? So let's go around the corner. And you know, like I love to go to pubs and things like that. You know, I always go to this perroquia up the road in Kentish Town because I go there and, you know, it's always 5.30, 6 o 'clock. And then, you know, if they haven't got a table, I have a drink at a bar and then I wait until they go to a table. And then, you know, this is very natural. This is very Italian as well, you know, it's like...

18:47I'm very glad as well I was looking at, I don't know if it was a press release or something, that even your restaurant, of course, you're constrained to the hours of the museum, but there's some extended opening hours as well. And I think that's quite cool as well. Okay, this is something that we have discussed with Mr. Finaldi and with the team down there. So obviously for us, Friday night and Saturday night, the gallery are open until nine o 'clock. So we are allowed to stay in the restaurant until ten, one hour after the closing. He mentioned the fact that they are making it. You know, when they had this big exhibition of Van Gogh, you know, the demand was so high.

19:27so they decide to do one weekend then they open till four o 'clock in the morning then they give in two years, two hours and then they reopen at six and then they did all day until four o 'clock again yes and they had like slots of two hours so you allowed in certain amount of people every two hours then you know some people hang around a little bit more some people a bit less to keep it flowing And it was, apparently they sold out the old tickets in 40 minutes. So this was for them a signal that, you know, there is interest as well. It's almost like, you know, it's so funny. Like when you walk down Kentish Town Road, there's the barbershop and they're full at nine o 'clock in the evening.

20:18When, you know, like in Italy, the barbershop close at four o 'clock, five o 'clock. That's it. They say, no more, he's in the bar drinking his Negroni at five o 'clock. He's not got any hair. But, you know, culturally, the city has this capability to extend the consumption time that we can have. And the museum maybe could come into that. Obviously, you know, there is a lot of regulation and there's a lot of security. I mean, look at what happened just now in Paris, you know, like, you know. So you have to be really careful of what you do. You can't just, it's not like a restaurant that you say, okay, I open till 2 o 'clock, you leave the door open, and then you close the door when you finish, you know, that's it.

20:58So there is a lot of constraint on that. But they are of the idea. If they do that, we will be keeping open all the way through. So if they open till 12 o 'clock, we will be there till 12 o 'clock. So because, you know, at the end of the day, you know, I can imagine somebody coming around, going to see an exhibition or do something between 8 and 10 and then 10 o 'clock come up and have something to eat and then go home. Or contrary, you know, whatever. But you know, it would be really, really interesting to see. I think they're also doing a pilot at the moment at the Tate, not the normal Tate, the new Tate, you know, the one down the modern, Tate modern.

21:41I think they're going to do it, they're doing a pilot to open until late. but that's modern art so the public is slightly younger so maybe instead than going out for things, going out to see something, maybe that fits them better but we'll see what the result will be but you know what I found really interesting is that the people at the gallery, they're really open minded, they really listen to what we say when we're having a problem or you know like oh because obviously you know running a restaurant you know for them it's just a you know it's a complete the moment then they took a painting and they stuck you i mean it's a lot of work behind but the moment then the painting is on the wall boom that's it they don't care how many if there is 2 000 people or two people coming for them is the same thing so hospitality is very different you know the amount of people it counts on the service and so and so and so.

22:40But even with that, under that point of view, they really are very careful and they really are putting us in the right position to really do a good job and give an overall experience. Because I feel that if you come to the museum, you've seen an exhibition or you see the normal sort of galleries and then you have a nice meal, that makes a day. And remember that, you know, it's possibly one of the cheapest things you could do because anything else in central London is so expensive. There you don't pay anything to get in, and then the meal is going to be like half the price that you'll get anywhere else.

23:17And so, you know, it is a day taking, you know, in a very... Fantastic. Giorgio, finally, I just want to, please, I mean, I was looking at the menu. Give us one dish to add our appetites. You know, do you have a favourite at the moment? At the moment? Okay, at the moment my favourite is this pappardelle with the white ragu. The white ragu is a very important thing because the inspiration to me comes, obviously we were cooking white ragu as well when we were in Locanda some months of the year. It was something that was recurrent. So it's made with the giblets, with the inside, with everything that you don't need.

23:59So it's a very poor cuisine. You get the capon, you get the turkey, you get the chicken, and you're giving the chicken to the owner of the land and you keep all the bits, the neck, the legs and things and that's how you make this ragu. But the story that inspired me was that it was in 1945 in this camp, you know, in 1945, Italy, we were enemy to the Americans because we were, you know, on with the Germans And so then when they invaded half the way through the invasion in 1945, we become, you know, the guy Mussolini and the fascists just moved away and the Italian government just became with the Americans.

24:44So they had these camps in America, in Florida, all over the place. And they had this POW, prisoner of war. Then they were either captured or the things and they were sent back. Then they were enemy, obviously, until then. But then, you know, when this happened, these guys were not enemy anymore. So the Jamaica thought, oh, don't I mean, the area, we don't want them to go back at the moment. They don't want to go back at the moment. So let's them run the camp. So what happened was that, you know, suddenly, obviously there was a restaurateur and an hotelier and things like that. Comes Thanksgiving.

25:22Thanksgiving, so the head of the general or whatever he was, I don't remember now, said, okay, we would like you, Italian, to cook a Thanksgiving lunch for us. And so, he says, only one thing, you have to have turkey. So suddenly, you know, the turkey wasn't cooked with the sage and the things that we're doing now, the stuffing and the sausages in it. It was very much of a rudimental thing that the American did. So these guys turned his turkey into a piece of art. But not only. They say, if he has to be an Italian male, he has to be pasta. And so with all the giblets and all the stuff in the head, they made this white ragu.

26:05And the Americans were crazy about it. And I remember reading the story and thinking, and I thought, oh, God, we have to put it on the menu. Because it's such like an Italian way of thinking about food. and, you know, it's a cuisine born out of necessity. It's not a cuisine. It's sort of like the haute cuisine, French, the peach melba and the crepes suzettins. You know, it is a more articulated sort of expression of the land, the people and the history around there and the necessity of these people. So, and you found that again and again and again, whenever you go from Rome to Milan, you find those dishes, then they are, now they become like classics, but their history is really into the necessity, into the capability to transform something.

27:00I was shocked the other day that they think at the Trump, did this dinner, and they serve panzanella. Panzanella is a dish that you just like, you know, the bread is got too dry, and then you make panzanella because you're wetting it up, To think that now at the official dinner at the White House, they'll serve panzanella. It's just an incredible... Our times have changed. How fantastic. Our Italian cuisine has done such a step forward. Thank you, Giorgio. For more information about his restaurant, Locatelli, go to locatelli at nationalgallery.co.uk. It is really delicious indeed. I'm Fernando Augusto Pacheco.

27:40The show was edited by Elliot Greenfield and Mariella Bevan. Thank you very much for listening. Thank you.