Qing Wang’s Chinese podcast on relations with Europe and the West

0:13Hello and welcome to the Monocle Weekly. I'm Chris Chermak and in today's show I speak with Cheng Wang, a Chinese podcaster based in Amsterdam. He spoke from Monaco's studio at Dufourstraße 90 in Zurich on a recent trip back from Art Basel. Cheng Wang's podcast is called The Weirdo. It has garnered a following of millions of young Chinese as she tries to explain the news and culture of Europe and the West to Chinese listeners back home and the diaspora abroad. Here's Cheng Wang with more.

0:47So my name is Qin Wang. I'm a journalist from China, and I have been working as a journalist for the last 15 years. I right now run an independent podcast called The World of Podcasts, in Chinese, Buhashi Yi. And it is a Chinese language podcast that addresses counterfeel, cultural phenomenon, lifestyle towards Chinese audiences, both inside China and outside China. The audiences inside China, their focus are more about domestic Chinese issue. And for those people who are living and walking outside China, which is also by number a very large group, a few tens of millions of people, Chinese diaspora, they still consume a lot of content, news in Chinese language.

1:42They are an immigrant of other countries, but culturally they are still quite Chinese. Tell me about your own decision to move abroad. How did it come about? How did you end up in Europe? You're in the Netherlands at the moment. Correct, yeah. So I came to the Netherlands around 13 years ago. I made that decision first and foremost for education. So I was born and raised in China. I'm actually from a mountainous region in China called Guizhou province. And nowadays, when people talk about China, you often talk about probably the fancier part of China, like Beijing or Shanghai. But my hometown is really one of the most underdeveloped regions.

2:23And mountains is what we have in that region. And that's like quite poor economy. And so growing up as a mountain girl, mountain person, I was always curious to see what is on the other side of the mountain. and that led to my decision of leaving my hometown to study in Beijing and then got a scholarship from the Dutch government as I was finishing my undergraduate program in Beijing and then I went to the Netherlands for a master program and then I decided to stay in Europe ever since. In terms of the decision of staying in Europe, on the one hand it was because of my curiosity wanting to experience and explore how a European lifestyle would look like.

3:10You know, I want to not just study here, but having some work experience. On the other hand, I realized Europe as a region, as a place, as an important power in the world, is not being properly understood by Chinese people. Therefore, I felt there were probably something that I could contribute to their understanding. And that became very urgent and significant, especially after 2016, when the UK decided to leave the European Union and when Donald Trump got elected for the first time as the president of the United States. And around that time, there were, you know, refugee crisis sort of everywhere and security concerns and trade war was at edge.

3:59And so I felt I wanted to do my bit of explaining what is happening here in this part of the world. How much of an interest is there in that? There's a lot of interest among the Chinese in domestic affairs, as there is in many countries for me, for the US. I feel like if I go to middle America, there isn't necessarily that interest in Europe either. How do you tap into that? That's definitely a great question. And it's also something I've been thinking a lot. Because I mean, on the one hand, if you are someone having a day job in some like small city in the middle of China, then probably Europe is very far away from you.

4:46But on the other hand, there is definitely a growing interest among a specific group of Chinese people, especially young people, because China is also being, you know, more and more important globally. And Chinese young generation is also getting more and more global. As you can probably see in both the US and the UK, there is a large population of Chinese students. And that's probably also, you know, what we've seen in the news lately about Trump's visa policy on the Chinese students. And I think it's also a growing phenomenon that Chinese people are getting more and more involved in what is happening in the world.

5:29because it's not just something that is very far away, but it's also something that will have an influence on their life, on their life decisions. Say that you are a student from China and you want to pursue a degree in the U.S. And now what is happening in the U.S. politics, it's definitely going to be a concern for you. And specifically in terms of Chinese people's interest on Europe, I find there are kind of a contradictory dynamic, especially in the last 10-15 years. On the one hand, I think Europe was still seen or is still seen as an example of good governance, you know, good life, good living quality, good democracy and very good social welfare and elderly cow, child cow, education and all that.

6:19And I think that is pretty much desired also from the Chinese people. You know, everyone wants to have a good life. And I think Europe has been seen as an example of good governance on that front. But on the other hand, I do feel there is also a growing concern of whether Europe can still function very well in the coming decades. And so, you know, is Europe a declining power that has a rich history, but is still struggling to find its position in this world? And I think that narrative started to grow in the Chinese sphere probably since the Middle East refugee crisis around 2014, 2015, 2016, and then following on a few terror attacks in different European cities.

7:11And I think that all contributed to a narrative like that, that, you know, oh, is Europe declining? So one of my work is to explain all the complexity happening in the European context. Of course, it's a very challenging job. When we talk about Europe, we talk about 20 plus different countries and speaking very different languages and they have different concerns. But during this process, I also discovered there is a huge interest among Chinese young people of understanding a more comprehensive picture of the world, of the Western society. because you said you are from the US and I would also be careful about your experience too.

7:53I think in China, when you talk about the West, a very conventional perception is that the US is often seen as the only version of the West. And by explaining Europe, writing about Europe, I'm trying to explain to my audience that there are many Wests, there are many versions of the West. That's really interesting. Yes, there are many versions of the West, but I'm sure that's the case in the same way as that, frankly, in the West, we don't imagine there are that many versions of China and there are many versions of China as well. And I did want to ask you actually on that front, if that's something you try to do as well with your role in Europe, how do you see the perceptions of China in the West?

8:41You spoke about kind of the lack of understanding maybe that there is of Europe in China. How about the other way around? Yeah, I think there can be, you know, many layers in the answer to that question. And I want to address a specific one, which is the audiences I am working with. Like it's a group of Chinese young people who are internationally mandated, liberal and aspiring to know what is going on and want to make a difference in the world. Maybe age between 18 to 35 and with good education, with intense curiosity. So I was often asked the question in different conferences in the West about, you know, what is on the mind of the Chinese young people?

9:31What is their ambition? What do they want? And my feeling is that they are actually not that different from young people in the West. They want to have a good life. They want to have good education. They want to be able to spend good time, learn about new things, have good community. And I think that is quite a shared interest universally. And so when encountering the perception of China in the West or let's say outside of China, I often find the similarity between different group of young people like much bigger than their differences. Like for instance, like TikTok is a global app right now.

10:23Loads of people in China and in the US and also in big part of Africa are using that app. And it creates some sort of like cultural sense of humor. So I will say the more I encounter those perceptions, the more I feel it's actually underestimating the similarity between Chinese people, especially Chinese. young people and young people from different parts of the world. Does the politics of the moment impact that? Do you find, even if there are a lot of shared interests and common interests among the people of China and the people in the West, the tensions that we are seeing right now, you talked about the Trump administration, visas, the trade war, everything that is happening.

11:10I'm curious how you feel that permeates society, impressions of the West. When I was in China about 10 years ago, there was an intense interest in the West in a positive way, kind of wanting to know more about the West and its culture. Do you feel that that is still there or is that shifting a bit because of the politics? Yeah, I want to maybe get back to one of the points you mentioned earlier, that there isn't just one version of China and there are many versions of China. When we talk about China, China is a country with more than one billion people. So you can find, I will say, opinions or proofs, like you can find proof to support probably every opinion that you have about China.

11:54And so I would say my general understanding is like the feeling, the emotions, the curiosity, the interest towards the West inside China are also being quite divided at this moment. there is still a huge interest about the West from the business community. Because if you're in business, of course, you want to have a global market and you cannot not be interested in what's going on in the world. And I think the general interest from the public, there's definitely a tension growing that in the past, especially since the last 20 years since China joined the WTO in 2002. I remember watching that news from the television as a middle school student and felt, oh, there's a whole world opening to me.

12:53I'm not just going to be a Chinese. I'm also starting to have the possibility of being a world citizen. But I do feel right now the tension and the dynamic isn't helping with that vision because you do see that on the one hand, I think different country in the world, especially in a few Western countries, the focus and the interest is getting more and more inwards focused. and immigration as an issue has been wholly debated in almost every election in major Western country. On the other hand, a lot of the tension is pointed specifically towards China and China's growing influence. And so I think that is making things more discouraging for that group of Chinese young people I was talking about.

13:51I do feel the work that you are doing is particularly important, which is to still, you know, try to build a bridge when things are difficult. And especially when things are difficult, because when things are easy, it's not that precious, let's say. But right now, I mean, this kind of effort is particularly appreciated. And that is absolutely the same with what you do with your own podcast. I wanted to get back to when you said at the beginning that your audience is mixed, people in China, people outside of China. We've spoken a fair amount about those within China. But when it comes to those who are outside, I'm curious how their impressions have changed, how your impressions have changed of your own country being here in Europe.

14:37Because it's something that I've certainly experienced as well. Again, going back to being an American, there is a wildly different version of Americans who are abroad versus Americans who have never left the United States. I remember being at university and having an American who was there for the first time outside of the U.S. and having this sudden realization that people hate us, as she put it, which was quite a strong way. But nonetheless, right, there are these realizations you have about not only perceptions of your own country, but also therefore maybe you become more critical of your own country.

15:14You have a different impression of what the politics is like in your own country, the society is like in your own country. What has that been like both for you and for listeners and people you meet, Chinese people you meet that are outside of China? Yeah, again, that's a great question. So one thing that I experienced being outside of China is that I think I only started developing my thought on China since I am outside of China. And I think the important reason is that you get to ask to explain your country only when you are outside of China all the time. Because when you're in China, you sort of don't talk about China as a thing all the time.

16:01You talk about your daily life. You talk about provincial differences. You talk about industrial differences. But only when I got out of China, first as a student, and I was in a class with students, with classmates from 20 different countries. And then everyone started developing a narrative or a story, an explanation that is understandable by your other classmate. And I think it was in that context, I started thinking about, oh, what is China and what is China to me and what is my relation to China? Being in Europe for the last 10-13 years, I think one of the bigger influences by living in Europe was that I started developing a deeper understanding of the notion of growth.

17:02So when I first got to Europe, I started my master's program in a Dutch university called Leiden University. And it's based in a very small town called Leiden. And the town is so small that you can basically walk everywhere, but it's so functional. And before that, I spent a few years studying in Beijing. So moving from Beijing to a small Dutch town, I think that provided a whole different perspective for me to look at different things. Like in China, what is being discussed and being chased is growth. And I think the economic growth in the last 20, 30 years in China is a very, very important part of the China story.

17:53You know, China's rising and that provided a good base for people's living quality. But also it has caused problems, concerns. And I think being in Europe made me realize, oh, there is a possibility of looking at growth from very different perspective. A lot of European countries are doing interesting experiments or setting up interesting samples to try to provide answers to that question. So if you ask me like my personal experience of the changes I've experienced, I think that will be one of the highlights of my thought shift. And is that quite a common one when you speak to other Chinese people that are outside?

18:47Is that something you've discussed? Yeah. And interestingly, I think there is also a difference between Chinese people who decided to live and work in Europe and in the U.S. And I think those ones who decided to come to Europe are more or less, you know, like work-life balance is more or less out of their concerns. And it's a life choice. Because there is that difference between the U.S. and Europe very much. The U.S. is more focused perhaps on growth, as you were talking about in China. I know, I know. Less on the work-life balance. Yeah, and also in terms of Chinese immigrants' achievement or how visible they are in different countries, I would say U.S.

19:28is probably still the number one in terms of how visible Chinese immigrants or general other immigrants are. And in Europe, like probably as a Chinese immigrant, it's harder to be as visible as they are in the U.S. society. But then I would say they probably value different things other than career achievement. Just finally, give us an example, if you could, of a recent podcast you've done. What was the topic? What were you exploring? Why did you choose it? Actually, one of the recent episodes was about Trump's policy on the Chinese community, a broader sense of the Chinese community. So it was in a series of episodes we explored how Chinese people who are sort of caught in between the China-U.S.

20:25tension, how they experience the change. so in that serious way i'm talking about way because i'm co-hosting this podcast with another journalist so we interviewed a chinese entrepreneur he was running who is running a semiconductor company and that company was founded five years ago when the political tension was not that fierce and now they are facing totally different challenges like for instance The company first was founded in California a few years ago, and the ambition was to become a company that has roots in both China and the US. But then eventually you notice like it was just becoming impossible to maintain both.

21:16Then they had to make a decision being caught by this kind of political dynamic. And then also students who got their visa, Chinese students who are in the U.S. and fearing that their visa status might be endangered. so it is pretty much a series of episodes that we try to not pick a side and saying you know this is wrong this is right by really trying to present people's understanding and the details of how their life how their work have actually been affected and how that would impact their life choices.

22:07Thank you to Ching Wang, her Chinese language podcast, The Weirdo, broadcasting from Amsterdam. Interesting to get her take on relations between China and the West. That's all for this edition of the Monocle Weekly. It was edited by Lily Austin. I'm Chris Chermak. Thank you for listening.