Scott Kennedy on documentary filmmaking and public health

0:12Hello and welcome to the Monocle Weekly. I'm Chris Chermak. Today we're speaking with the Oscar-nominated documentary filmmaker Scott Kennedy. His last film, called Shot in the Arm, was originally meant to be a look at measles in the United States and why fewer Americans were taking vaccines. But it suddenly pivoted when the pandemic broke out across the world, and vaccine hesitancy took on a whole new meaning. Now, measles is once again on the rise in the U.S., and Robert F. Kennedy Jr., one of the core subjects of Scott's 2023 film, is serving as U.S. health secretary. I spoke with Scott about what it feels like to come full circle and have his documentary back in the news.

1:02The vaccine itself is going to kill far more people. Conspiracy theorists play into distrust. Don't trust the experts. Don't trust scientists. It's going to be a disaster for mankind. I absolutely see the pandemic as an opportunity. On January 6th, these are the anti-vaxxers. You've been sold a lot. It's a dark circle, yeah, if you put it that way. The serendipity is a beautiful part of making a documentary and other forms of art, too, and just life. But, yeah, the strange serendipity in documentaries are remarkable. And this is continuing to be very, very strange to be making a measles documentary, seeing New York City in a state of emergency and many measles outbreaks in 2019.

1:48And that being the starting point of making a documentary where I went and did my lazy Google search and saw that in 2000, we'd eliminated, we'd had the status of eliminating measles in the United States because the vaccine acceptance was so high. and now why in 2019 were we seeing it coming back? And then to have that be a completely valid movie and filming with these amazing doctors on one side and these anti-vaxxers on the other, like Robert Kennedy Jr. And moving along with a film we thought was quite important and then to have a once-in-a-century pandemic come along and take it to this entirely other strange place.

2:31I had no idea what was coming next.

2:36lockdown day one from the beginning of covid our family struggled to make sense of what was going on i did think that the arrival of covid would be the end of the anti-science world were you right i was never so wrong in my life and now jumping all the way to the present to have robert kennedy jr i can't even finish the sentence to have robert kennedy jr as the top health official in the United States, a top health official. So like a 12-year-old child if like wanted to do some research about, hmm, how should I wonder about my health issues and like measles? What is it? And what's the vaccine?

3:17And how should I make decisions? This horrible, excuse me, I'm going to go right to a horrible human being is the head of our public health institutions. It's awful. Do you feel like you're more in a fictional film than a documentary or real life at this point. It is. Yeah. It feels that way sometimes, but it's no, it's absolutely real. I don't need to pinch myself. It's very real. And I don't want to lose focus about how real it is, right? We're living through some very dark times. I mean, United States, we're going through a terrible, terrible time in terms of attacks on our democracy and just decency and the social contract as well.

3:54So when I get down, I reach out to friends who inspire me. And one of those Larry Brilliant, a wonderful scientist and science communicator and investor, said, Scott, we were made for this moment. And I want to follow that kind of energy, that we have to be on point. We have to stay sharp in terms of this is very real. We are made for this moment. What exactly does that mean? What has been happening? How are scientists trying to meet this moment? How are you trying to meet this moment? Yeah, so just what his statement meant to me was, we're not doing anything wrong. We didn't get anything wrong.

4:35We've done some things wrong in terms of communication. But scientific method, decency, democracy, checks and balances, our love of those, our respect for those, our commitment to those are founded. and we have the evidence to show it. We have the evidence of how many more people are alive and healthy. We have the evidence of how much more equitable our world is. Not perfect by any stretch, but we have systems in place to try and make all these things better. And stand by that. And stand by that our community checks ourselves too, right? When I say our community, I'm actually really trying to find a name for this, Chris.

5:17It's like, what do we call, They have MAGA and Maha, make America great again, make America healthy again. How about make America kind again? But I don't want to take one of their silly slogans. What do we call it? It's like, it's not just democratic. It's not just, you know, liberal. It's I want to find a great name for it. And I put it to you and your listeners to help us find a name for respecting science, respecting democracy, respecting the rules of law, respecting checks and balances. We could go on and on and on. What do we want to call that? So that is what he meant by that statement and standing by it.

5:52Now to what we're doing, that's quite scattered because Trump 2.0 is moving at such a furious, brilliantly, I hate to use that word, but brilliantly designed pace of dismantling so many of the same things that I just listed, I won't list again, that it's really scary and it's disheartening and it's confusing. And it's like, which, which, where, where's the triage, right? To use medical, where, where, what am I supposed to do first? Who is in the most harm? And it's really hard to decide. Even looking at, you know, measles in the universe that I'm in now of public health. And I don't, I don't, I'm not a public health expert, but I have become quite knowledgeable in public health, but it's not the only thing I'm going to do in my career as a filmmaker, But just in public health to see a measles outbreak in Texas, while Robert Kennedy Jr.

6:48is supposed to be leading the response to that, it's very scary. But it pales in comparison to some of the other horrors that are coming out of the White House every day. So it's really, really tricky. So I wish I had a better answer for that. It's in process, and we're communicating. I mean, I'm a small fry, but we're communicating as best we can that we have to support standing up in every way that we can. Scott, one of the most dramatic elements of your documentary was this discussion about the island of Samoa, where there was a measles outbreak. It claimed the lives of at least 83 people, basically children.

7:29For almost a year, the message to the people of Samoa was that vaccinations will harm or even kill you. And in the fall of 2019, the consequences of those messages became crystal clear. This small Pacific nation is in a state of emergency. More than 4 ,000 Samoans who've contracted measles since the outbreak began. Most of the victims are young kids. You interviewed RFK Jr. as part of that in order to get his take because he played a role in the vaccine hesitancy and the government spreading vaccine hesitancy in Samoa before this outbreak happened. And what do you feel when you reflect now back on that trip?

8:12And I know you've tried to use part of that documentary to warn about RFK Jr. Has that worked at all? Or do you feel at this point that, you know, the U.S. has to kind of learn its own lessons? Yeah, there's a dark part that we might need to, it might need to get much darker for us to come out of it. And it probably is going to get much darker. But yeah, the Samoa sequence is one of the more powerful sequences in the film. And to try and do it quickly, two babies died from a human error of nurses mixing a muscle relaxant into the MMR vaccine. the sadly the anti-vaxxers jumped on that and said look the MMR vaccine killed babies and the Prime Minister Samoa stopped all vaccines because he was already a little bit vaccine hesitant because his grandson is autistic and we can go down that rabbit hole separately there's no connection scientifically between the MMR vaccine and autism and Robert Kenny Jr.

9:12visited Samoa and sort of celebrated the, you know, supported the prime minister in stopping these vaccines. And then you know where this is going. You already listed it. 5 ,000 cases, 83 dead babies and Robert Kennedy Jr. in the anti-vax community never said, oh, we're sorry. We see that it was a human error. Our bad. Let's get those vaccines out there, which in the end did stop the outbreak. I am not anti-vaccine. I've never been anti-vaccine. If somebody calls me anti-vaccine, it's because they have an agenda, which is to marginalize or vilify me or make me look like I'm crazy. So are there any vaccines in history that you would say were a benefit to mankind?

10:05I don't know the answer to that. So now we cut to 2025 in Texas and a small version of Samoa is playing out in a Mennonite community in West Texas. Almost all the cases are in unvaccinated children. And Robert Kennedy Jr. is saying some of the same things he said in Samoa, right? Now he's really speaking out of all sides of his mouth. And I coined the phrase for schmucks like him have his kale and eat it too because he is so privileged. say, oh yeah, the MMR vaccine is definitely an option, but it's a personal choice. And the CDC doesn't talk about the dangers of the MMR vaccine nearly enough.

10:43And vitamin A is showing results of a miracle cure in Texas. Wrong. Absolutely no evidence to support it. Just a disaster in terms of communication. And the opposite of Dr. Tony Fauci, who he slammed endlessly during COVID. steady, calm, consistent, imperfect, sure, steady, calm, consistent, return to the science. He's Robert Kennedy Jr.'s all over the place. So it's, it's really bad, Chris. And I, I don't want it to play out with more dead babies showing the world how horrible Robert Kennedy Jr. is, but I don't know. It might have to go that way. Scott, I do want to ask you about your documentary more broadly as well, kind of the journey that it's been on over the last few years between filming it, shopping it around, getting it played out on PBS in the United States.

11:39And then with this kind of shifting environment, what's the reception been like? My biggest whinge, actually, I thought whinge was an English term, but somebody told me that it's more Australian. What's your understanding of that wonderful word? It's not American as much, but you can use it. Feel free. So good. I just love it because it sounds, I love it when words feel and sound like what they're doing. So to whinge, my whinging side would be, we didn't reach nearly enough people and that's marketing money. We're grateful to be on PBS right now, but it's even a sort of an indie version of PBS where we're great, happy to be there.

12:18But we didn't get picked up by the traditional streamers and the why of that. I can confidently say the why of that isn't the quality of the film because I have the evidence of very talented people like yourself and film critics and on and on to say that to really vet the quality of it. It is a sturdy piece of filmmaking. It's a sturdy storytelling. It's very honest storytelling. It's emotional. So getting past the whinging to the positive side, the response to the people who have seen the film has been remarkable. It's very, very powerful, cathartic, difficult at times, right, to relive these elements of COVID again.

13:00but again cathartic and going to some of the things about Larry Brilliant's line was telling us that the truth is worth it science is worth it decency is worth it, hard work is worth it and don't lose faith in that and the film is being used in the public health community and beyond as a tool for that all the time and I'm honored and we have still a long way to go with its education plan and all that so So I think the film will also age well. I mean, I think it's really going to be a time capsule of not just COVID, a time capsule of a very scary time that I hope we will get past in terms of, again, repeating myself, decency, honesty, what is verifiable truth and how do we determine it?

13:47just finally Scott you did mention at some point in this that you are a filmmaker not necessarily a public health expert at least not for the rest of your life what's next for you oh god I still am in this this bubble Chris of uh of defending science I love it it's just so fascinating and it's an important time my previous film to shot in the arm is food evolution and it was a reset of the conversation around GMOs. And that was my beginning of, I was fumbling along, like all of us just, you know, taking advantage of what science was doing for me every moment of my waking day in terms of safety and efficiency and gifts and like just on and on and on and on.

14:31We all know it, but we don't think about it a lot. And I didn't realize how much there is a well-organized and well-funded groups of people slamming science. And then there's the more peripheral cynicism around that slamming of science has led to that needs defending. So I have another film with a working title. Hopefully it's going to be a series, actually. Toxic, that is looking at the, trying to determine what truly is toxic and what is spin about toxicity. Going to the history of toxicology from a caveman walking out and trying one plant and it's nutritious and another one that makes him and his family itch or actually die to, you know, the incredible systems of toxicology that we have today that, you know, make our planet function in remarkable ways that we wouldn't dream of, you know, hundreds or even thousands of years ago.

15:27But also the toxicity of disinformation and cynicism and straight up lying that is so prevalent, especially in our country right now. It's big, it's timely, it's very, very important. And I hope I can get that made next. And I've got quite a few other projects after that, a clear-eyed reset of the UFO conversation based on science and data and trying to stop the tidal wave of movies that keep saying the same thing. What if, and who really knows? So I'm doing that and developing that with my dear friend, Neil deGrasse Tyson again. So yeah, lots of projects and also a new company that we're starting called Time Capsule Movies that's personal documentaries, quality personal documentaries on a small scale that could be vanity piece for your family, but also could be portraits of a great artist or a great scientist that is not gonna be known, is not gonna have a documentary on PBS or these other places, but we wanna remember them.

16:32So, yeah, that's Time Capsule Movies, and you can check that out at timecapsulemovies.com. So, yeah, a lot going on, Chris. I wish I was cloned. That was the filmmaker Scott Kennedy. You can check out Shot in the Arm on PBS's website. Also check out more from Scott's latest project, Time Capsule Movies. That's all for this edition of the Monocle Weekly. I'm Chris Chermak. Thanks for listening.