Simon Kuper on his new book, ‘World Cup Fever: A Footballing Journey in Nine Tournaments’

0:28Hello and welcome to the Monaco Weekly. through nine World Cups.

0:37Simon Cooper, welcome back to Monaco. Always a pleasure to be here. Always a pleasure to interview you as well. But this time it's not about Paris, even though we might be talking about Paris in a bit. But let's talk about your new book, A Footballing Journey in Nine Torments, World Cup Fever. And when I saw that, I was so interested because, you know, as you know, I'm not a football man, but I am a World Cup man. There's something magic about World Cup. That's admitted, right? Yeah, I mean, in the end, I interview a vicar here in London who says that you've got to see it as a kind of religious feast that's for the whole world.

1:13So a religious feast like Easter or like Eid or Hanukkah, which is a time of celebration, escape from the drudgery of life. And a World Cup is that, but everyone is invited. So whether you're Brazilian or Iraqi or English, and we have this love of our nation, but it's also appreciation of others and kind of everyone's talking about Brazil or everyone's talking about France, as the case may be. And so it's a kind of nation and planetary celebration. It's very strange. It's very strange. And for me, it's more powerful than the Olympics. I don't know if I'm allowed to say this. Yeah, I mean, I live in Paris.

1:50I saw the Olympics last year, went to a lot of events and I do find it quite boring in the Olympics. I think most people in the crowds, when I look around, also find it boring because you're at archery or pole vaulting or whatever and most people have no idea what's going on and so people are there for the event and they kind of they're having a good time and a world cup people are engaged to the core of their being and you know in the book i describe i remember world cup matches from when i was eight years old in 1978 i can describe moments to you, as most people who love World Cups can. And I began going in 1990.

2:25So the book catalogues the seven World Cups I've been to and how the World Cup captures the world. And it's about football, but about so much more. So much more, because even the countries that are hosting those events, I mean, suddenly in 2010, you have South Africa, which I know is very close to your heart. 2014, Brazil, you know, so new countries were hosting the World Cup and then Qatar, you know, So even the countries that are chosen have changed, right? Yeah. So the World Cup was really a kind of Euro-Latin American duopoly into the 1990s. And almost nobody else gets a chance to play and suddenly not host.

3:03So in 1990, my first World Cup, there were three teams from the British Isles, England, Scotland and Ireland. There were two teams from the whole of Asia, two teams from the whole of Africa. And so, yeah, for a country like South Africa or Qatar to be given a World Cup, that country also goes on a journey. It's this question, you know, who are we? What do we want to be? What are our ambitions? And then this fantasy that you can remake yourself through a World Cup. So a World Cup doesn't so much change the country, but it takes the country on this journey that lasts, you know, sometimes up to a decade from when it's chosen as host.

3:35And it's fantastic to watch that country go through that. I mean, you as a Brazilian saw that around 2014. Absolutely. And I was there. That was actually the only World Cup which I attended to. And it was against your country, which is, you're a Dutch supporter, right? I'm not Dutch, but I support Holland very passionately, yes. And so World Cups are a highlight of my sort of attachment to Holland, a country where I grew up and was not a citizen. And yeah, I mean, we beat Brazil 3-0. And in fact, it was almost anticlimactic because it was four days after Brazil had lost by a rather larger margin.

4:11That was the game I was in the stadium for. And I remember we were very sedated, the Brazilians, because we had that trauma after Germany. And then we were like, I mean, the Dutch are winning. They're the best. They're the best today. So we have to give in to them in a way. Well, I've watched the Brazil-Germany 1-7 in a bar on the Avenida Paulista in Sao Paulo. and a financial times editor calls me after about 20 minutes and he says it's 2-0 brazil's going out you have to write a story about this and as i'm talking to him it goes from 2-0 to 5-0 in five minutes and at half time i've walked down the avenida paulista to see how people brazilians are taking it because every you know every bar is packed people are wearing the canarinha the yellow shirt yes and i think how are people going to react and they were laughing their heads off People were laughing and it was just a kind of, it was so bad, it was hilarious.

5:02It was so absurd. I even thought that they were replaying the goal on TV and I was like, no, that can't be true. That really cannot be true. But okay, let's start from the beginning, from your first World Cup that you've attended. That was 1990. And I'm not sure if you can say that, but it was not by accident, but a friend of yours invited, right? So it was kind of... Yeah, so I'm at university. I'm 20 years old and I'm in the bar and a friend of mine comes up And he said, if you had tickets for the World Cup in Italy, would you go? And I thought, I don't really understand the question because, yes, of course, but I don't have tickets.

5:37How would I get tickets to the World Cup? And he said, oh, don't worry. I've got tickets. I can get as many tickets as we need. And it turned out he knew a guy whose dad worked for Mars. Mars had invited all these sponsors from around the world. But in 1990, North Americans didn't care about soccer. Asians didn't care about soccer. And everyone, the whole story of the World Cup was hooliganism. You know, the English hooligans weren't going to destroy Italy, which to some degree did happen. And so Mars couldn't invite its guests. The guests didn't want to come. The sponsors didn't want to come.

6:07So Mars had been left with hundreds of tickets. So me and two friends, we drive to Dover and we, you know, take the train from Calais to Italy. They won't let us in at first because they think we're English hooligans. And so that's my first World Cup. How was the feeling for you? Because for you, you always loved football, right? Yes. In the beginning. I mean, it just felt insane to be at a World Cup. Like how, you know, it's as if suddenly you've been elected president of the United States. It's just beyond what I'd ever imagined. I thought I'll never go to a World Cup. I had a cousin when I was growing up and his dad had been to the World Cup, I guess, in some kind of sponsor capacity.

6:44And he got a photo with Pelé. You know, everyone who went to the World Cup as a sponsor ended up shaking Pelé's hand getting a photo. So my cousin had this picture in his room of his dad with Pelé. and I thought that is the most glamorous, exciting thing that could ever happen to me. It was unimaginable that anyone in my family could meet Pelé. And so then it sort of happened to me. I never met Pelé. What a shame. And if you don't mind, Simon, I'm going to moving forward to 98, which of course, again, another traumatic World Cup for me, but I got to talk to you. It's 98, it was hosted in France and France won actually that World Cup.

7:21Is it true that that World Cup was one of the factors factors that actually made you move to the country? Yeah, because I had this very dull job at the Financial Times at the time. I was writing the currency column, and I'd get up, put on a suit, and I'd sit in this London office where the windows didn't open. And then at the end of the day, I'd commute back. And sometimes I only had daylight on my skin for three minutes a day as I was walking to the tube station. And it was just desperate. And then the Financial Times sent me to the World Cup, as they have, I'm very grateful, for about seven World Cups now.

7:53And I'm going around France and I'm discovering French life. You know, you wake up, you wake up journalists, you wake up late, you have croissants and you read l 'équipe on a terrasse and then you go and have lunch on a terrasse. You go to a game, which is often a boring interruption for your brilliant day. And then you go out for dinner with other journalists in those days before the internet when journalists didn't have to work so hard. And I was in places like Lyon, Marseille and Toulouse and I thought this is just the best life. The French have really cracked it, which is true. They know how to live.

8:21And I never completely understood that. And then a couple of years later, I came back. I almost immediately resigned my job at the FT. I started racing football. And three years later, I had bought an apartment in Paris. And I still live in Paris. I've never gone back. And I think it's mostly because of the World Cup 98 that I've ended up living in Paris. And it's interesting how a World Cup victory can change the image of a country. In France, I remember when they won, it was all about, I don't know, which word can I use? this racial unification that everyone get along together in a way. I know it's not necessarily sometimes the reality, but it does play a very strong role.

9:00Yeah, a World Cup can create this kind of utopian image of the country as it could be. So in France, it was black, white, Arab origin people working together, being the best in the world, the team that won. Black, blanc, bleu, bleu was the French phrase. And then politicians, including Chirac, said, oh, well, this is what our country is going to be. We're going to be multicultural and we're going to win. And this was going to wipe away racism. And of course, it hasn't happened. You know, in France, the whole story of the 21st century in politics has been rise of the far right, French anger at the sense that France has failed, which is nonsense, but that's a whole other story.

9:37But yeah, World Cup can give you that image of your country as it most wants to be. I think Brazil in 2014 wanted to have the World Cup where we show Brazilian-ness at its best and most beautiful to the world, which of course didn't work out. In Russia, there were moments where, you know, people are dancing on the streets. People are dancing on Red Square. The Russians own the public spaces there with Poles and Senegalese and everyone is having a party and it's happy. Russia meets the world in a happy way. Policemen watch benevolently. And it's an image of Russia as it could have been. And of course, it fades like a dream.

10:10Absolutely. And, you know, in talking about nation decline, I remember we won Brazil one in 2002. and a lot of people associate, I mean, there's not a connection there, but that was the year that Lula won his first term as well and Brazil was ready for change, we were growing. And there was a notion there was a nation on the rise as well. And people do associate that with football sometimes. Yeah, I mean... South Africa as well, we need to talk about South Africa. Yeah, football doesn't change a country, but football shows you, it's like a play, it's like an allegory, It shows you what the country could be.

10:47And when you see your national football team, those 11 men in those plastic shirts, and now people also feel that about those 11 women in those plastic shirts, they embody the nation with all that's, you know, beautiful in the case of Brazil, and then also everything that people don't like about their own country, all the dysfunctionalities. So when people talk about the national team, often they're talking about their nation, the things they love and the things they hate. Absolutely. Let's talk about South Africa, which is a country very close to your heart, right? And how was the experience to have an event hosted there?

11:20Well, it was very strange for me. Both my parents were born and raised in Johannesburg. And so I began following that World Cup from the moment South Africa were given it in 2004 for years and years. And it's really a country deciding what it wants to be. There were all these promises that the World Cup was going to create this economic boom, not just in South Africa, but in the whole of Africa, completely absurd stuff. South Africa, like Brazil, built all these white elephant stadiums. I went back in the book last year to see one in Polakwane in the Northeast, almost unused, completely pointless.

11:55and so the World Cup is also about the dashing of South African dreams, the sort of failure of the new South Africa to uplift people and a lot of those stories of South Africa are in the World Cup but then the most beautiful, the really positive thing about that World Cup which still moves me to tears when I think about it is the one success of South Africa is it's created a feeling of South African-ness which is transracial. So whatever your colour, you can all belong in South Africa and work together in South Africa and be friendly in South Africa the country doesn't prosper the country is a very difficult place to live in it's corrupt but there is this shared sense of we are South Africans and that World Cup I talk about embodies that and it's a powerful feeling right we have to admit as you say football doesn't change a country but you know it does have some sort of influence right I suppose I mean the thing is you know how was the United States made or Italy made Washington or Garibaldi made them through armed you know rebellion and you conquer territory, you drive out foreign rulers, and you create the United States, you create Italy.

13:02South Africa, when it is founded, the new South Africa in 1994, how do you make a country of people who'd been on opposite sides? And Nelson Mandela very consciously did it through sport. So from his inauguration, he's driven to a South Africa-Zambia football match. South Africa win, it's a happy omen, Mandela meets the team. So Mandela thought this sense of South African-ness, where everyone belongs that we have to create. We're going to do it through football, through rugby, through cricket. And so there's no, it's one of the newest countries in the world, of course, in that sense, South Africa.

13:33And there's no country where sport is more important in the making of national identity. Although Brazil also, I think, is a close contender for that. And Simon, I just want to look ahead a little bit. I just want to know your opinion as a football fan and a World Cup expert as well. Next year, it's going to be hosted by the US, Canada and Mexico. And also, correct me if I'm wrong, but they're adding there will be more countries. 48 countries. Well, what do you think about that expansion? Because a lot of people say, well, it's not going to be the same. The quality is going to be diminished. But at the same time, there'll be a new audience watching the World Cup.

14:09What do you think? Well, there's two contradictory things going on. So one, when I was a kid and there were 16 teams at the World Cup, it was some of the best football in the world. and you could see players from Brazil or Peru who you'd never seen or even heard of before and you discover these new stars. That doesn't happen now because all these guys are discovered at 17 and they're already playing in Spain or Italy. But so the quality is worse. So in most World Cup matches, most teams at a World Cup, especially next year, are worse than say Everton or Fulham, worse than mediocre Premier League teams.

14:41But if you're Indonesian, you know, Indonesia might qualify for the World Cup for the first time. There are African countries competing to qualify for the World Cup. China will eventually qualify for a World Cup again. Then it's just fantastic, you know, because you couldn't qualify when there were 32 teams. When there's 48, more countries have a chance of playing in a World Cup, and they don't aspire to win it. Only about five or six countries aspire to win a World Cup. But just to be there is just this fantastic thing. So for me as a kind of Holland fan, a World Cup with 48 teams is more boring.

15:12If you're Indonesian or Chinese, this is fantastic. Finally, you can be there. Or you can just wait for the fun, for the quarters as well. You know, just be a little bit patient. If it's not Holland, who is your second team? I'm not sure that it's possible to World Cup to have a second team. Yes, of course people do. And the thing is, my children support France. So they feel quite sorry for me. They feel that daddy has been stuck with this bad team. And they're lucky to have this good team. Although when I was growing up, France was the bad team. And so it's not that there are tensions in the house.

15:43So my boys, my twin sons won the World Cup in 2018 when they were nine years old. You know, I'm 55. I've never won a World Cup. I probably never will. So I don't believe it anymore. For me, it's funny, of course, I always support Brazil. I have some sympathy for the UK. I'm also British now. But for example, I like a South American team to win as well. Even Argentina, believe it or not, Simon? Yeah, I mean, there was a point in the World Cup when it looked like Messi was going out. Argentina was going out in 2022 when I put on an Argentina shirt, literally put on an Argentina shirt, because I appreciate the beauty of Messi's football.

16:24I'm also, you know, I appreciate the beauty of each country, what they're trying to do and their tradition and their history. And you see that and the players care so much at World Cups. They care more than in club football, even though the quality is worse. So I care about Argentinian tradition and history and Germany even and Brazil. So it moves me and I think it moves lots and lots of people. So even when I'm watching a match that I don't support anyone like Brazil, Argentina, I feel elevated and moved and I remember it. Fantastic. And congratulations for this wonderful book, Simon. Great to have you.

16:58Thank you. Thank you, Simon. Big fan of the book and I do love a good World Cup. World Cup Fever, a footballing journey in nine tournaments, is out now. I'm Fernando Augusto Pacheco and the show was edited by Elliot Greenfield. Thank you very much for listening.