Another Reform scandal: Is Farage finished?

24:26He would have known that there would have been a cost to be associated with Conservative figures, but it was a signal to Conservative voters in the South East that this party's dead, you might as well come over, and if they did en masse, and before you know it, you're not just at 30 or 35, you could be at 40. But it hasn't worked, has it? It hasn't worked, because the Conservative Party, as you say, is not vivified, but it's clearly not dead. And so now they end up in a kind of, the two parties together in a bit of a dance of death, both neither strong enough nor weak enough, too strong to die and too weak to dominate the other?

24:56Yeah, absolutely. I think two things have happened. One, it's become increasingly clear. There's a big chunk of Conservative voters who just don't want to vote for reform, right? And sometimes there's this kind of, like, lazy assumption you can treat voters like Lego bricks, and if you just add together Conservatives and reform, then actually, you know, you get a combatant. But that isn't the case. You know, sort of more Cameronite Conservatives actually don't want to vote for reform. Some of those people would rather vote Labour. And then secondly, this time last year, Kemi Badenowicz's personal rating was minus 30.

25:27It's now plus one. Now, plus one doesn't sound great, but actually in an era of anti-politics, to have climbed from minus 30 to plus one, it just makes it harder to squeeze. And I think the risk for reform is this. There is a big chunk of voters, conservative reform waverers, who basically only care about defeating Labour, right? They will vote for whichever of the two looks like it can defeat Labour. And when it looked like reform was the only vehicle, they were there. Now, as you say, the two are sort of practically tied. The Tories were just ahead in our last poll. They're just behind in others.

26:00It's much harder to do that. And so those transactional voters on the right actually now don't know where to go. What about Farage personally? Have you detected any difference in the way that voters are talking about him by comparison to a year ago? Because he was quite popular a year ago, or on the more popular side of political leaders anyway, which is no longer the case. So he's always been polarising, right? He's always struggled to get into positive approval ratings. But nonetheless, again, this time last year, had the highest net approval of any of the party leaders. Now he's basically tied with Zach Polanski for the lowest score.

26:35So it's a slight weird irony that the two slightly more populist leaders have the worst approvals, and the two mainstream ones are in positive territory. And again, in focus groups, what you hear from people is just this sense that, not amongst true believers, they back him as strongly as ever. In Clapton, I spoke to a series of people who said, I'd take the five million, good on him. You know, he's clearly still got, and they turned out and voted for him. But that group of wavering reform voters, I just think more of them have given pause and been like, as I say, is he different? Is he something else?

27:05And it's taken some of that shine off. How damaging do you think this Channel 4, these Channel 4 allegations, do you think might be? Well, look, I think what it does is I think it continues a pattern of reform being on the back foot. You know, when it comes to stories around donations, and particularly this one, actually the public might not be fully engaged in the details. And again, I suspect reform diehards will say this is another establishment stitcher. But I think it's another reason for those waverers to have pause for thought. And even more importantly, actually, We talked about reform having declined, not disappeared, still poorly reasonably strong, but being off their peak.

27:46They needed this conference to get back on the front foot, and yet they're playing defence. A conference is your big boost moment of this thing, and now they're going to be answering questions about this. They've obviously lost people like James Orr, who was doing their policy thing. It's not ideal. Is it possible, though? So, I mean, it will doubtless add to the ambient noise around the sort of stench of corruption. Details are quite complex, though, aren't they? It's a story. I mean, I kind of feel like if you've watched the clips or if you've watched the whole 20-minute study minutes of the Channel 4 thing, the way that some of those aides are talking about it, literally talking about, let's keep it off the books, make it clandestine, no one need ever know.

28:27You know, terrible. I mean, awful. It sounds awful. It really stinks. But, like, you have to have watched it. And when you're sort of going through the details in the interview, it is a bit more complicated. It is. And, you know, a general rule in public opinion is that the more complicated a story, the less cut through. It gets because most people aren't following every ins and outs of electoral law and donations and who does what and who pays for what. So most people will not watch the full 30 minutes by definition. As you say, we also know that watching things always has a more powerful impact than just reading about them.

29:04But as I say, I think it's more it's just going to be another thing. There'll be another thing, and for some that will trigger another question mark. Is it possible, though, as well, that just as many people rather overestimated the kind of inevitability of the reform rise, that as ever, you know, with the commentary on political discourse, there was a bit of an overcorrection to sort of go, right, you know, this is now inevitably on the slide, it's doomed, Conservative revival. I mean, it's certainly true, I think you're right. Those kind of maximalist ambitions of getting 35%, 40 % feel, you know, pretty off the table now to me, for all sorts of reasons.

29:40But they could easily still, I mean, many parts of the country, they've basically displaced the Conservatives or Labour. I mean, you know, this does feel, and when you're walking around here, it doesn't feel like a party that's about to instantly just disappear. No, the question I get asked most often is, do you think that's it, reform of PEAK? Do you think that they are done? And the answer I come back with, look at the fundamental drivers of the reform vote. The sense the country doesn't work, the sense that the social contract's broken, the sense that the system is rigged. None of those have gone away, right?

30:10The fundamentals that reform are driven by are still there. And again, look at basically every other Western European democracy. It would be weird if our reform movement or populist movement disappeared. There's a radical right. So they're fluctuating. And there is another argument that some might make that despite having had a pretty bad six months, they're still on 22%, seven points higher than in the general election. So it may be that their ceiling has come down. This could be the Burnham peak. But we don't now know where reform's floor is, and it may be higher than we thought. And if they get, I mean, they don't need to be getting 30 % or 35%.

30:44If they're getting 20%, 16%, 17 % in the general election, it just transforms the board. Transforms the demography, the political demography of the country. Transforms the landscape. And think about it, particularly, actually, we talked about the toys, the effects on Labour. They're getting around 20%. People like Yvette Cooper, people like Ed Miliband, people like Johnny Reynolds in those red wall adjacent seats. They're at risk. I mean, it could totally reshape the Labour Party. And just finally, I mean, is this some... In terms of the party's future, I mean, you and I have talked a little bit before, In a way, it feels to me, I mean, the funding stuff is interesting and it's sexy.

31:20I don't know what you think, but I feel that in a way their bigger mistake over the last year has been to actually engage in and hammer home those cultures. As they've been afraid of the rise of Restore and Rupert Lowe, they have kept making the same mistake, it feels to me, which is they think this is America. And it feels like America in here in a way. This feels a bit like a CPAC conference, but this is a tiny bubble within a bubble within a bubble. and focusing in on those things, those slightly eccentric things, which actually even started this time a year ago. Do you remember they had that sort of vaccine quack on the stage?

31:52They had Lucy Connelly up here. All of those sort of calls to leb on the right. But that's not great in persuading those kind of more middle-of-the-road voters. No, it's not where, you know, that group of red wall voters, it's not what they're interested. They want to know about issues like immigration, which reform have talked about, but they also want to know what they're going to do on the economy. And I always say, whenever a political party in the UK, whether it's on the left or the right, confuses the US and the UK, they get it wrong and it damages them. And I thought it was particularly exemplified, actually, in the make-and-feel by-election, where Robert Kenyon did the sort of Trumpian, don't apologise, keep going forward.

32:30With his comments about women. With his comments about women. And I think if you just step back and say, look, I've made some really stupid comments. British people are fair, they give you the benefit of the doubt, But I think they're learning too many lessons from the US. I think Donald Trump is really unpopular here. That US-style politics is really unpopular here. So most people listening, watching this, will never have been to a party conference like you. There are always these sort of fringe events which go on on the side from the main hall. And usually they're certainly in Labour and Tory, they tend to be about quite worthy things, if sometimes it's a bit dull about local government or housing or how to fix social care or whatever it is.

33:02I think even though this conference has got tremendous energy, it really does, that thing that Luke was saying there about ending up a bit eccentric focusing on American style cultural stuff and that being a problem you can kind of see from some of the events here. This one that I'm standing in front of now it's called World Health Organisation Leave or Remain and there's been a fair bit of Anthony Fauci bashing I think it's fair to say. Now that might all be right or it might be wrong and it may be virtues or otherwise of leaving the World Health Organisation. I can't probably think of that many but maybe there are I think it's fair to say that the average person in Daventry or in Walsall or in Truro or wherever, probably not the top of their priorities.

33:46But that other point Luke and I made is important too. This conference, yes, this bubble is different. I went to the conferences back in the UKIP days in Margate or Blackpool or Doncaster Races or Torquay, all so ended the pier politics as dad's army or a low, a low, blustering half-colonels and the remnant of the Pink Rinse Brigade. There's still some of that, but the professionalisation is on another level. The energy, the numbers, the corporate activity. If you didn't know it, you'd assume this was one of Britain's big political parties, because it is. I suppose one thing we should say, though, Tasha, is that when I wasn't here last year, I was on holiday, thank Emily Maitlis for taking all of August off, but, you know, I mean, this is...

34:32This doesn't feel, in fairness. like a party conference which is a party on the slide i mean i used to go to you know party conferences in new kid days and my god it was nothing like this it was nothing like this this feels deeply professional there are so many people here i've never seen a queue so long to actually get into a party conference before people feel you can see where the money is going i'm not talking about any potentially legal donations here but the millions of pounds they have been receiving which has been declared and has been properly registered you can see where the money's going here yeah Absolutely.

35:03And actually, I was here last year and there were crypto currency signs all over this conference. Nigel Farage's face was one of the main sponsors. And obviously, bearing in mind the Christopher Harbour gift scandal, there is nowhere to be seen in this conference. Weird that. Yeah, weird that. But yes, you can look around this hall and you see that there are more exhibitors here than ever before, more sponsors. There are people here who have never come to this conference before. I was actually speaking to someone who says that they think someone very senior from Amazon was actually here today.

35:33I think there's a lot of people that are starting to now give reform way more of their time, way more of their attention. We're seeing a much more professional organisation. This should be, you know, theirs for the taking. But yeah, you're seeing from Nigel Farage that he is absolutely struggling to get on the front foot. But this feels like a major party of British politics. It is a major party of British politics. And actually, you speak to the members, and like I say, there are 8 ,000 of them here today. You know, they've been queuing up for two hours to get in to see Nigel Farage, to see Zia Yusuf, to see all the spokespeople speak today.

36:01They're still really excited. They're still really on board. Those hardcore loyal supporters of Nigel Farage and the party haven't gone away. And like I say, this looks like a professional media operation. It looks like a professional party. They've clearly got money. You know, pyrotechnics will be coming onto the main stage a little bit later on. That band. But like, it's expensive. All of this money, they were actually, I think the biggest political donation for any parties was the reform last month. last quarter. They're doing incredibly well. And you can see it on display here. One of the undercurrents, the interesting undercurrents of this story, the Channel 4 story, is the fact that Nigel Farage did not find it surprising that someone based in Wyoming, allegedly, would want to give him half a million pounds via a UK intermediary.

36:46Now, of course, that never happened. But Farage didn't think it odd. Farage didn't think it surprising. Now, once upon a time, I think we would have thought that, and he would have thought that very surprising. He would have got alarm bells just ringing in his head instantly, but it didn't. And it didn't for one of the reasons that you sort of see here. We just saw Jordan Bardella walk past. He is one of the most senior people in the National Rally Party in France. He might even be president, who knows. He is part of this wider movement, something we talk about on the show all the time, this right-wing, hard-right, populist movement, that all see themselves as part of the same struggle, part of that same ecosystem.

37:29And that is why Farage didn't think it odd at all that someone from Wyoming might have wanted to give him half a million pounds. Because MAGA is reform, is national rally, and so on and so forth, it goes. They see themselves as part of a wider struggle against liberalism, against progressivism, against the sort of politics that they believe is undermining national life, national culture, and the sort of country that they want to live in. And much of it is unseen. It is behind the scenes, behind the curtain, from funders, think tanks, pollsters. It is a shadowy world that in this brief moment has been exposed for all to see.

38:12But will this be the last conference like this, with this feeling, the last time they do see major and not peripheral. Aaron Banks is another long-time friend of Nigel Farage, and we ran into him on the conference floor. These party funding stories. Yeah. Can we trust reform to obey not just the letter, but the spirit of the law and the rules? Well, the latest one's a bit of a storm in a teacup, isn't it, really? Is it? A lovely channel for sort of, you know, expose. Then why has Dan Dukes and James Orr resigned? Well, they had to. I mean, they stepped over the line and Nigel's dealt with them.

38:46So I think it was fairly inevitable they had to go. What have they done wrong? Well, I just think it's the optics of it rather than actually having done anything wrong. It's perfectly legal for someone to pay for a poll and have it published in a newspaper. But they started to talk about things they probably shouldn't have. Well, they were saying that no one ever needed to find out, which would be illegal. Well, I don't know the ins and outs of it. I actually haven't seen it, believe it or not. I'm sure you've seen the detail. You're very well informed. I've seen the headlines. But, you know, I'd say when has there ever been a time when there hasn't been problems with donations in any part?

39:18Well, yeah, well, you're supposed to be... I mean, Tony Blair bought peerages for donors. You're supposed to be... Well, of course, the police actually exonerated him from that. But you're supposed to be the party which is fixing up the system, is cleaning the system. You're supposed to be cleaning up the system. Your answer is to just say, well, we're as bad as the rest. I'm saying that you have a compliance department and the actual deal or whatever it was never actually made it to fruition, did it? Your head of policy was literally caught on camera saying, we don't need to worry about the rules because the electoral commission is so toothless.

39:49They're not like the serious fraud squad. We can get around them. We'll keep it off the books. It stinks, doesn't it? Right, so that's actually why he should have stayed in his lane doing policy and not dealing with donations. Wouldn't the public be rightly concerned that if this was happening once, it would be happening culturally, that it would be endemic within the party? Yeah. I mean, my view on it is this party's 18 months old. It's a bit like an adolescent in some ways. And it's growing up very quickly. Every single party over the last 30 years has had issues like this. Nigel Farage has been in politics for 30 years.

40:21He knows what the rules are. I'm sorry, there was a Liberal Democrat donor that gave three million... I thought you were better than the establishment. I thought you were better than that. But you've got to understand that it's a young party. And there probably are changes need to happen. It's not been the best couple of months. It's directly after winning the local election hands down. And it's absolutely clear that it scared the living daylights out of the media and the other parties. And there's a huge, you know, pile on. No one from the media made James Orr and Dan Jukes, indeed Nigel Farage himself, to sit down with these people.

40:56So you're saying that's the only, that's the scandal. Dan Jukes was saying that he could keep half a million, that he could make a donation. this fake guy, this American guy, this guy from Wyoming, that, as they thought, could give the party half a million pounds. Are you going to stop talking and let me answer it? The provenance of that half million would never have been made clear. That stinks, doesn't it? Do I get to answer or do you just keep talking? That ignores him. He got sacked because he went too far. And he wasn't the right person to be dealing with this. Do you welcome the police inquiry if they want to make one?

41:25I don't know if there is a police inquiry. I don't think there will be, but if they want to investigate it, I mean, investigations are the flavour of the month at the moment. aren't they? A lot of people here think it's a stitch-up, an establishment stitch-up. Would you agree with that? Well, it's a group of anti-climate people that got together to hit Nigel. I don't think we covered ourselves in glory. I think Nigel himself would probably say that. But we do have to, as we grow up as a party, perhaps become a bit more disciplined in the way we do things. Was it a bit rich for Nigel Farage? But to say it's unique to reform in some sort of way, unfortunately, these things happen.

42:00I haven't seen another party leader take five million pounds from a crypto billionaire. I mean, that was before the election. He wasn't involved in politics. He's been involved in politics for 30 years, Aaron. Come on. I'm actually quite proud of the fact he's the best earning MP in the House of Commons. You're proud of the fact that he takes five million quid bungs from a crypto, Thai-based, crypto-based billionaire. When you say bung, I say the amount of money required for lifetime security. In which case, why doesn't he provide the receipts to show that the only thing the money has been spent on is security?

42:30So it's for lifetime security. He currently has security. It's to ensure that he's got lifetime security. So he's only used the money for security purposes? I wouldn't say that. You wouldn't say that? I don't know his finances. You're claiming that it's for security. You're grilling the wrong person. But then you're making a claim about which something you don't know. I'll tell you, after the election we lost in 2015, I actually picked up the bill for some of his security for six months. and you're talking like two, three hundred thousand pounds a month to stop him being assassinated. So the money is something like sixteen hundred death threats.

43:04No one would deny he's been targeted of course. The government took away security. If it's for security he would be happy I'm sure to provide the receipts to show it's only exclusively been used for security. It's up to Nigel to answer for Nigel. But what I would say is it was for lifetime security. Why did he say it was a reward for Brexit then? You'd have to ask him that. So you're absolutely, why are you so convinced it was for security? I'm just telling you what security costs. It costs a fortune. And it was absolutely clear that the state wouldn't provide it to him. Do you understand how this all looks?

43:33Whatever the substance of it, it all just stinks. I'd say the optics of it may be not so great, but I also believe the public don't give a rat's ass about it. You do? They don't. They don't care. You don't think that some of these stories... You guys care, but the public at large do not care about these kinds of things. But it's right for the media to take an interest in the rules being properly applied. isn't it? Yeah. But I mean, you go back to, like, say, before there was a standards committee, the only real judge of an MP should be the voters, not political opponents in some trumped-up kangaroo.

44:05Well, you don't think that Parliament ought to have any rules and enforce the rules? No rules? An MP is elected by its electors. Before there was a parliamentary standards committee, there were no rules. So you think that members of Parliament should be subject to no rules around donations, around gifts? There's one rule. They should just... The voters. So the voters can absolve them of anything? Absolutely right, yeah. Anything? Yeah. Well, I mean, in the old days, if you were convicted of murder... What about if you break the law that could absolve you of that as well? No, no. If you were convicted of a criminal offence, which he hasn't been, has not been suggested, that's when, you know, people would step in.

44:40So there should be no standards in Parliament? There are no standards anyway. And that makes it OK? Come on. And that makes it OK? Are you a political journalist or a boy behind the ears? So that makes it OK? Really, politics is a dirty business, always has been and always will be. It's a state of nature. Anything goes for reform. No, I didn't say that. I said politics is a dirty business. It always has been and always will be. Ends justified a means. Not necessarily, but in this particular case, you're talking about a gift that was given before the general election. The timing of that is contested.

45:14Well, let's see. There'll be an investigation, won't there? Which you won't accept the findings of. Which you won't accept the findings of. Well, it depends what the outcome is, let's be honest. I mean, if you've been investigated by rival MPs who have vested interest and a group of lay people have been appointed by those MPs. The Parliamentary Standards Commissioner who is independent. Yeah, of course he is. So you'll accept what they say. Just like the Electoral Commission and all the other people. Infamy, infamy, everybody's got it infamy. The entire state is out to get Nigel. And why? Here we go.

45:43Because we're winning. Here we go. The entire state is out to get Nigel. Right. So we're like a kind of third world country, are we? Where we have a state which uses... Unfortunately, we're becoming a third world country. How so? I just think we are. How so? I mean, in terms of all these quangos, these unelected bodies, all these people have got huge powers. I'm not sure quangos tend to be the defining characteristic of third world countries. I'm not sure that the Arts Council is a thing that they've got going in Somalia. When you cede responsibility to unelected officials, then yes, it is. You really believe that the British state...

46:17that the british state every organ of the british state right now is out to destroy you we are failing as a country aren't we look at look at the navy there's 123 yeah forget the navy do you think that the british state i don't know there's 123 admirals who about 17 votes well that's a completely separate question that sums up the position we're in but do you think that the british state is being used to destroy this party i think it is what's evidence that's not going to be successful what's your evidence for that because it will be uh inquiry after inquiry after inquiry. If you do illegal stuff, yeah.

46:48Now, but you know, this stuff is trumped up. You know, you know, you know what, Aaron, you know the way to avoid the British state coming after you? Don't do illegal stuff. Just don't do illegal shit and then you'll be fine. Yeah, good.

47:14There are a lot of people out there who really loathe Nigel Farage. They just loathe him actually, they're quite scared of him. What do you see that those people don't see? The difference that he brings to the party is enthusiasm, what he says he does, and I'm keeping all my hopes up that when he is elected, he does what he's saying for the first 100 days. I admire him, I think everything about him, basically. And all these party funding stories, they don't bother you? No, no. I think that the press will dig up anything and they'll make a mountain out of them all. They'll try to discredit him for whatever.

48:04So it doesn't obviously bother people here because you're die-hard party supporters. Do you think all that stuff will bother the public outside? Some, yeah, definitely. Because they continuously sit down and absorb the BBC pump out there. The same BBC that hopefully will be dragged through the courts by Mr Trump and they'll be hit with so much of a fine that it'll be the end of them. And then they get what they deserve. You support a foreign president destroying one of Britain's great cultural institutions? 100 % if they are who they are. And who are they? Socialist propaganda machine. Hence why he's doing what he's doing to them.

48:42They're getting their deserves. Trump knows a thing or two about propaganda, of course. Well, of course he does. It's the machine, isn't it? Again, you could step back to politics, but why lie? Why fabricate? If you're a news agency like yourselves, you tell the truth or shut your mouth and say nothing. But Trump did lie about the 2020 election, though, didn't he? I mean, he did lie. No. How much have you looked into that? Loads, as reported out there at the time. OK, and what's your take on that? Well, my assessment would be that of all of the Republican officials in all those Republican states who all said there was no election interference whatsoever.

49:17No, you clearly didn't. Apart from Donald Trump himself, of course. You didn't delve into it. You haven't delved into it enough. Just do the maths. Well, I reckon the Republican election officials delved into it quite a lot. Look at the cobbler's. It was such a hot potato, in my opinion, that they were too scared to put it through the... Don't forget, a lot of America are armed. We're not armed, OK? if what happened there happened here. Why would the Democrats, how could the Democrats have rigged an election in Republican-controlled states when they weren't even in the White House but couldn't do it in 2024 when they were in the White House?

49:52Didn't you see all the information with the drop boxes and all the way they shut everything? There was so much evidence. It couldn't just be that Trump was a sore loser and he couldn't accept losing. He's won twice, fair enough to him, but he did lose once. No, he didn't lose, did he? You just asked me if I believed that the 2020 election was a farce. And I just told you, yes, I do, because I looked into it. I spent about six months on it, to be totally honest. Six months? Yeah, I just kept delving and delving and delving. Down the rabbit hole. Correct. Can I say something you might not like, or maybe you would like it, and I mean it really gently.

50:25It's just I've reported a lot from America over the years. And whenever you talk, it will go to, say, MAGA conventions or CPAC and those sort of things, and something comes up about Trump, and you say to people, or what about this about Trump? They sound a lot like you do about Nigel Farage. They say, well, we just trust him. We just like him. We trust him. He's always do the right thing, even when it's quite obvious that Trump has not done the right thing. Is there a danger of a bit of cult of personality about Farage? There may be other part of some, but we've watched his political career very closely.

50:51He is a man of his word. He's passionate, as my wife said, about the issues. He's always very well briefed. Nobody can beat him in a debate about the issues. He is the man for the moment. I mean, Churchill was regarded as the last person who would lead a coalition in the war, and he was the one we needed. Is there anything that Farage could do that would put you off him? Or a story that might emerge which would put you off him? Let's first of all say this. He's human. We all have failings and faults. I'm sure you have one or two, as I do. Three or four, probably. So his failings will not put me off his leadership quality.

51:26There's nothing? I can't imagine him. He'd do that. I mean he left politics and he felt so bad because people say Nigel what are we going to do now and he decided to come back he didn't need it didn't need all this he didn't need it but he's passionate about the country and he wants to say see change I mean gosh he's been in this for a long time a long long time it's just worth repeating despite everything so far despite all of these stories despite the clear mistakes that have been made despite the fact that Nigel Farage's personal ratings have declined, that this is a party, as Luke and I were saying before, that is still either on top or neck and neck, despite all of it.

52:10And more than that, as you can tell from being here, this is a party which in large parts of the country has displaced either the Conservatives or the Labour Party or both, at least in England. Look at the local election results. I said before, this is a party which does not have deep established roots but it has been establishing them. That is something that is different about this iteration of Nigel Farage's politics, UKIP, the Brexit party, something that they never achieved where they actually managed to get their claws into large parts of local government, large parts of England. That is different and it gives them strength and ballast in a way that Farage has never had before.

52:56That isn't everything in this age of pendulum politics but it is something. Reform has a real base made up largely of ordinary people and I use that word advisedly even though some of you I know will balk at it because they are not an abstraction to me. I recognise some of them from the sort of place where I grew up, from the kind of communities and lives I knew. Some now hold views, you've heard in this, that I find extreme, sometimes ugly. Calling them ordinary is not to excuse those views. It is to recognise something more troubling. Extreme politics, radical politics, radical politics, this politics of cynicism, isn't practised only by obviously extreme people.

53:37It can take root among those living otherwise unremarkable lives, people who feel ignored, who have undergone the slow drip of online life and to whom liberal politics and liberal politicians have had almost nothing to say. It's easy to dismiss the People's Army rhetoric, easy to sneer, easy to hope this all disappears. But that's how reformed supporters conceive of themselves. And in a sense, this is now a real and rooted political constituency. They're not totally wrong. And that energy, that feeling, that discontent will remain, whether reform does or not. That's it from us here in Birmingham.

54:13We'll be back on Monday. Have a lovely weekend. This has been a global production.