Are football's new 'Ultras' a force for good? - The Sports Agents

0:02Andy Hughes:This is a Global Player original podcast. Being part of an ultras group is like a mini school. They're learning literacy, they're learning numeracy, even like music for example. And they turned into hooligans that day. They started hurling bottles at police officers, they were assaulting police horses. It was as bad as it gets. Riots before the game, tear gas. We get locked inside a cafe, fans, police, rioting.

0:28Mark Pougatch:Football fans remember the moment they fell in love with the beautiful game. It could be the sport itself or even the culture that surrounds it. The fan phenomenon of ultras has taken Scotland by storm. Tifos, flares and drums, all that we've seen across the continent. And they are popping up from the old firm to the fourth division. But is this culture a force for good in an online sphere dominated by Manosphere or another mask for something a bit more sinister? Welcome to the Sports Agents.

1:03Mark Pougatch:The Sports Agents with Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman. We're going to bring in Blair McNally, who's a Scottish YouTuber with 62 million views on TikTok and 10 million on his channels, who highlights Scottish ultras behaviour, but also ultras behaviour around Europe. And Andy Hughes, who's popped on before, the host of The Crime Agents. Blair can I come to you first because I've really enjoyed the ultras I kind of came upon it by accident almost on my way home from work one night late and I thought having seen the Manosphere about three days before I thought I was about to watch something that was going to make me really angry make me get a kind of bit uptight and worried about the state of young men and where they were going in society and actually I came into work and I said to these guys oh my gosh it's really it was really heartwarming it was almost like an antidote because of the community the sense of community.

1:57Mark Pougatch:Now, I know we later see in the series, you know, the kind of more sinister side, if you like, of the rise of the ultras. But the fascinating thing for me, Blair, was the Scottishness of this particular movement. And I wonder, you know, I know you are heavily involved in terms of your YouTube channel and your social media. I wonder if you can pinpoint why, in particular, the Scottish leagues have found ultras, you know, kind of so attractive, why the ultras have found the Scottish Football League so attractive? To me, I think it all comes down to the lack of facilities for the youth in this country.

2:31I know it's a very cliched comment. However, for me, growing up, there wasn't much to do. I used to just kick about streets, maybe go out drinking as young as possible. It's Scottish culture. A lot more than English culture, I would say. The Scottish tend to start drinking earlier as part of the culture, going out and causing trouble and causing havoc. So what I wanted to do was a lot of the youth, they haven't got anything to do. The mum and dad have got rising costs coming up against them now, so there's less likelihood of them joining the very scarce clubs or joining football clubs. So I thought, what can we do to make a difference to the youth?

3:09I always wanted to be an ultra when I was younger. I always wanted to become a part of the local team. And I went and done that first video at Vela Clyde. It'd done really well, and I thought, do you know what? We can do something with this here. We can make a difference to the younger generation. and I just started posting it and going to other games. Next thing you know, thousands of comments, thousands of messages. Kids all over the country just want to be involved in this, shall we call it a craze, because it's something that I think is very important. It's an outburst of energy. When you're young, you've got so much energy, but there's not many ways in the UK, shall we say, for kids to use it.

3:50you go across to Spain, you go across to even Germany etc there's so much for the youth to do I was in shall we call it Valencia Valencia a couple of months ago and there was like football pitches on the beaches for them there and then next to it there was arenas with open football pitches and then a couple of streets away from that there was Astrot football pitches all open all available, here you're expected to play on grass because AstroTuff pictures are owned by the council and when you want to use them I think it's like£100 an hour nowadays to use a section of it so I just think greed has taken over this country, it's a disappointing factor now, there's a big rise in poverty and from that kids are being left with less and less to do people complain about their kids being iPad kids but what other option have they got?

4:47When they sort of become this band together of ultras, what does, from your experiences, what has it given them? I get the sense of belonging, but in terms of the things to do, obviously I get it on match day as well. What during the week does it give them as that sense of doing things? When I was doing my university degree, I studied deep into this, and it covers so many things that you probably wouldn't realise. Being part of an ultras group is like a mini-school, shall we say. They're learning literacy from writing songs, making songs, creating it with each other. They're learning social skills by joining in with other people, actually speaking, opening their mouth, and having to be a part of something.

5:36They have to step up. they're in numeracy when they're putting together things say they're making a budget say they're raising money for example or they've got a budget to make materials etc there's so many of these differences, even like music for example, when they're singing and they're playing these drums there's so many of these

5:56Mark Pougatch:and Blair there was a scene just to answer Mark a little bit more there there was a scene where a couple of fans were trying to work out where their TIFOs were going to go and they were dealing with probably the commercial director of the club. I don't know if you remember that scene and they were kind of working out. And I remember thinking, well, they're having to kind of negotiate. They're having to kind of like, you know, work within a rules and system and make a relationship with the club and all of those kinds of interpersonal skills, actually. And the confidence to go and have those relationships, which I think is something that they probably wouldn't have done in any other kind of hobby or, you know, kind of, as you say, pastime that's not quite as productive.

6:37Mark Pougatch:So there was an example of that right there. Exactly. And when you think about a COVID age, how many of these kids have been stuck indoors for four years during vital years of their growth? It's a very difficult time. So what I see is a young generation that have not really been taught the things that we did. When we were younger, you were told to go out by your parents. Nowadays, parents are probably the opposite. Nowadays, those parents are scared to let their kids out. It's very easy, isn't it, to think of the ultras and think of either a massive club in Europe or the old firm, whatever it may be.

7:12As I understand it from what you've said and also what Gabby has said about what comes across in the documentary is that these ultras are more vitally important, like a Celtic heart who are struggling in Scottish... With full knowledge, I'm impressed. All right.

7:29Every week when I do the Scottish football on 5, I love doing the Scottish football results at the table and all of that. I love it. Anyhow, in the smaller communities, they have even more importance, I'm guessing. 100%, because you've got these, for example, I'll give you a great example. You remember Darville, who knocked Aberdeen out of the Scottish Cup? Yeah. So this is a village of 3 ,000 people in Ayrshire, just literally like a farmland village at the bottom of a valley. Nobody had heard of it. It's crazy. now this team managed to get through so many rounds and got in at the Scottish Cup and played against Aberdeen knocked them out at the game against Aberdeen there was more people in that stadium in that day they managed to put it together and that actually was from that village everybody knew everybody and it was a sense of they could be part of something now what the people felt from all ages that night is what the elders feel every week when they go and do this

8:27Mark Pougatch:I want to bring in Andy Hughes because Mark touched on it there I think our perception of ultras, and certainly as someone who follows Champions League and does their live games and sees the PSG ultras when they're in the stadium and the Lille ultras last year, especially the French club seem to have a very strong cohort, is a much more, I'd say there's a definite demographic. The men of certain age, they wear black balaclavas. They're not allowed to when they get in the stadium, but they're banging the drum. But they look a bit more sinister, perhaps, than the joyfulness of some of the Scottish ultras.

8:58Mark Pougatch:And Andy, there is definitely in this series, it goes a little bit more sinister when you start looking at kind of the Rangers Celtic kind of rivalry, the sectarianism, the kind of more criminal end, if you like, of the ultras and what they're prepared to do. And I know this is something that you have looked into in terms of English football.

9:18Andy Hughes:Yeah, I have done. Many years ago, early 2010s, I actually went undercover and my intention was to infiltrate a serious hooligan firm. Now, given where I'm from and my accent, there's only one place I could have tried, which is the Newcastle. so I tried to infiltrate the gremlins firm who are notorious for being one of the most fierce and dangerous firms in the country certainly at that time so I went along to the pub that they drink in and basically I got clocked straight away by one of the main guys when I went to the toilet I got surrounded I managed to just about get out so I thought well I'm not going to pursue that anymore But what I'll do is there was a younger group who called themselves Ultras.

10:05Andy Hughes:They were called the new batch. And they were kind of made up from kids of, you know, 15 upwards until about mid-20s. The gremlins were much older, 40 plus, and a lot more violent. So, anyway, I went along to meet them. Again, I was working undercover, so I didn't say I was a journalist. so I met up with him and I spent a lot of time with him over the six months and about six months in really I thought well I'm going to stop doing this because there's just no criminality here to look at no criminality was there was there a togetherness and a joyfulness and a band of brother well yeah I'll tell you what it was it was what Blair said earlier which um these kids needed something to be part of a lot of them came from kind of um broken homes and there was not much to do even back then it's way worse now as you know but um back then there was still not much to do on the streets of gateshead and newcastle so they just came together and then the worst i saw was just swearing at police officers when it got a bit rowdy and swearing at the opposition fans but that's not you know that's nothing compared to what i was uh thinking i would get so that all changed so it was all nice until it wasn't when Sunderland beat Newcastle 3-0 in their own backyard and this group of the new batch I was with them and they effectively just completely turned and they turned into hooligans that day they started hurling bottles at police officers they were assaulting police horses that it was it was as bad as it gets um and I couldn't believe that these kids who just six months ago they looked like butter wouldn't melt were all of a sudden now getting thrown in the back of a police van for assaulting a police officer and it it was absolute chaos and and that really kind of um taught me a lesson that really listen that even something positive and a positive outlet can sometimes with emotion with more mentality it can spiral out of control.

12:08I wonder whether also, Blair, it becomes a power thing as well. Like the more the ultras are, the stronger they get as a collective, but then also the stronger they get with links to the club. And I'm not picking any club in particular. I mean, well, several times of presenting Italian football, you hear stories of the ultras go down to the training ground to confront the captain about what they're not happy with, and the influence that they then have over the players and sometimes the way the club is run. With confidence comes power. Yeah, 100%. What I like about the ultras, but is that they're self-policed in Europe.

12:50So they've got SLOs that actually are run by the ultras. So that doesn't create, that stops the divide between the club and the ultras that we tend to see here in the UK. So here in the UK, the SLOs are actually - Sorry, what's an SLO? A supporters liaison officer, sorry. So this is what we see maybe starts a bit of the divide where SLOs in Europe are part of the elders group, so any problems that happen are policed inside the group and they're dealt with and they're worked with. because the rules are coming from the club. Maybe sometimes fans feel a bit rebellious in the UK and that's a way where things don't really get worked out and issues start to come in.

13:37My issue, I would say, is because it's such a new regime, the ultras scene in Scottish football, even UK football is starting to come into England with Crystal Palace, Middlesbrough, etc. There's going to be teething issues, there's going to be issues. not everything's going to go perfect. What I think is most important as we get education programmes in place, education is most important, education is key, and I think what a lot of these youngsters don't know, even youngsters, I'm saying youngsters, I mean teenagers, they're doing things that they don't know what they're actually doing. For example, if they're using pyro, don't hold it away from yourself, don't throw, etc.

14:15People don't know the dangers of these things. For example, the dangers of throwing a bottle, just simple simple things that just educate people.

14:25Mark Pougatch:Blair just to interrupt you there anybody who throws a bottle for me you're teetering now into violence right why would you throw a bottle why would you do that if you're an actual if you're an ultra fan that's there for the joyous mood of the whole thing why are you throwing a bottle why do you have to be educated about that? This has been getting done in football for over 100 years it's not just started with ultra scene. No I know that that's what I'm saying but that to me you've teetered now into violent conduct right? Yes. We started talking about the positivity, the creativity, the camaraderie.

14:55Mark Pougatch:If you throw in a bottle, mate, you're in trouble. What was spoken about in the documentary is that football tends to be an outsource of energy for young people. So if there's going to be any way of a youngster filtering their energy and something bad happening, in today's society, it's mostly to be football for a young male. So that's why I think it's important to bring in these education programmes because whether you're going to be protesting with a political party or going to watch a football team at the weekend, these are probably the two main outsources of energy, outsources of negative energy a man's going to have.

15:30So if we can bring in a positive slant on it, if we can look at this and say, right, we need to stop it before it gets to that level, then everybody can... I just feel that... You're talking, aren't you, Blair, actually, about... I'll take your point on energy, But what you're actually talking about is the outsourcing of anger and frustration at society is what I'm sort of reading between the lines here. It's certainly not an excuse, but I'm guessing that's what you're trying to say. If they're not outsourcing their frustration. I'm using the bottle as an example, but there's so many things. Let's be real here.

16:04The hooligan element is rising right now with the links to poverty, with the links to society, with the links to rebellion. It's all linked. it's all coming in so how can we stop this we can't just sit back and go that's bad why is that happening that shouldn't be happening we need to work together and do something about it because it's obvious to everybody to see that these issues are creeping into society through football you

16:29Mark Pougatch:know and i think that's do you think there is i mentioned at the very beginning blair i mentioned having watched manosphere do you think because tiktok is one of the main platforms that information is spread and people are kind of garnered into groups. Do you think there is a relationship between the manosphere and the rise of ultras? 100%. What I would say, I think the biggest thing is I'm just going to stay on this negative point here there is a lot of hooligan pages starting up and you'll see them over social media and these are a massive influence for especially youngsters now because when youngsters feel like they can be a part of a positive ultras group and they're this good thing, they're being an ultra fanatic for their football club they're now seeing these hooligan pages and they're seeing these ultras fighting with each other in Italy, seeing these ultras going to forests and fighting in Germany and they want to be part of that too and social media's a big advocate for things happening, it's a big reason for things advancing and that's probably why you're seeing certain behaviours rising like you've seen at the Old Farm Derby for example these are things that they're seeing across Europe from social media on these hooligan pages and they're thinking, wow, we want to do that we can do that that looks like, you know, it's something that a lot of youngsters are very naive and they don't understand the real issues that are caused from it And are they, Andy?

17:55You know, you go back to when you were trying to infiltrate you know, go back even further than that the big hooligan, I want to come back to the positive of Ultras as well in a moment, but the big hooligan firms back in the day used to arrange where they were going to meet, either pre or post-match to, well, let's put it bluntly, to beat the shit out of each other.

18:18Mark Pougatch:They didn't even get into the grounds quite often, did they? Yeah, they weren't even interested. As Blair says, that's on the rise. And actually, the way communication goes now, there are so many different ways in which you can arrange to meet up for the fight, I am guessing.

18:35Andy Hughes:Yeah, no, you're totally right. I mean, hooliganism is live and well in the UK. It's just not at the forefront like it was. Really, hooliganism became a massive issue in the 80s. And that's when Margaret Thatcher, who was prime minister at the time, had to intervene and set up a basically a police squad to tackle hooliganism. And that's when you saw all the undercover police officers infiltrating all these firms. I think really the difference between then and now is what used to happen then is they all used to know what pub each hooligan firm used to drink at and they all used to just target that pub and quite often this pub used to be out of the city centre.

19:13Andy Hughes:Now how they do it is they all have their own telegram channels so they don't have to even do that because a lot of pubs now, there's CCTV everywhere and they're very aware of this so what they're doing is they're organising a fight. I heard about one fight that was arranged between the two hooligan firms between Newcastle and Sunderland just at the weekend. And that was under a footbridge in Gateshead where there are no CCTV cameras. And I think when you just coming back to the ultras, I think there's a couple of factors here. I think one of them is people don't like the police anymore. People don't trust the police.

19:49Andy Hughes:There is a very different atmosphere out on the streets. I've lost count of the amount of times I've been covering a riot or a protest where it just takes one or two people for the mood to turn. It just takes one bottle to be thrown. And then with mob mentality, all this fun, lighthearted group behavior turns and it turns into criminality. And I see it every single time a big group is together. there no matter how well intentioned it is it quite often spirals just going back to the kind

20:26Mark Pougatch:of innocence of some of the the ultra behavior that is in the the program the bbc iplayer program blair there's a little boy in the first episode who goes to the get he wants to be an ultra but he can't join till he's 16 and he goes with his mom and she buys him a drum and it's a way they spend time together she's a single mom she loves it that he has this passion and that you know they're going to do this together. And he's asked very sweetly by the journalist who's doing kind of the questioning in the interviews, would you think you'll always go to the football with your mum? And he says, yes, I will.

20:58Mark Pougatch:You know, it's really heartwarming. And then obviously, you know, things turn, don't they? Because to go from that to the kind of behaviour that you're talking about there, Andy, is, you know, it's a spectrum, isn't it, I guess, Blair? But there is, you know, there is, let's go back to that positive, there is a lot of really good stuff, making of the TIFOs, the creativity, getting together and getting the money together. And all of that stuff is really lovely. So I guess what Scottish, the Scottish ultra movement, presumably wants to hang on to as much of that as possible because it sets it apart, doesn't it, from what they see as the kind of hermetically sealed, sterile English football.

21:34Mark Pougatch:It gets talked about as being too corporate in the documentary. It gets talked about as being dislocated from the fans. So the Scottish ultra movement really has a USP there, doesn't it? 100 % and let's be real here as Scottish people we don't want to be like the English we'll be completely separate Cool stop I think you can probably end that sentence there can't you? We want to be completely separate and let's be real here English football's been Americanised it's been it's becoming very corporate greed and business are at the very forefront of it now I've went down to England done a lot of videos and what I feel is even the championship is becoming more and more popular non-league games are becoming more and more popular and you're actually starting to see some ultras groups rising in the non-leagues of England.

22:19I'm getting a lot of videos from, say, the North East, the North West and it's starting to creep in now because they're obviously seeing these videos. So what I think is very important is we've got something that we can use, you know. When you look at 15 years ago in football, there was nothing there for the youth. There was nothing. and there was a guy with a pie and a bovro, and when I was younger, it was embarrassing. If you went and watched your local team, I speak to non-league players and managers and stuff, and they all love it. It brings that energy, it brings that atmosphere, it brings that noise to their team, and it gives them that drumbeat that they can go for that ball, rather than just be going, ah, Wednesday night, can't be bothered, you know?

23:01They've got fans there properly supporting them in an ultra movement. I think it's just important that we work together and try and keep this in line, because we've got people from all over the world, as I spoke about in my video, watching this and watching these videos. And it's amazing. It's absolutely phenomenal. You've got kids as young as 10 making TIFOs.

23:23Mark Pougatch:And I think, Blair, with the World Cup this summer with Scotland there and we saw, Scotland were, I think, Chappers, you'll agree, I think they were the neutrals' favourite fan base, weren't they, at the last Euros, the way they travelled around Germany. And that spirit and that atmosphere as well as obviously kind of comes from the national team as well, doesn't it? That kind of sense of belonging. So hopefully the Scottish Ultras will lead the way in terms of that positivity. Where have you been and filmed finally with a group of Ultras and thought, wow, I wish I was part of this group? I didn't hear this.

23:58So I took my dad to Marseille for his... Oh my God.

24:03Mark Pougatch:That's one of the worst experiences I've ever had. England, Russia in the Euros. I thought I was going to die. I took my dad to Marseille for his birthday. It was Marseille v Feyenoord, the Conference League's second leg. Now, Marseille, previously to that game, had their ultras stand. I think it was the Corver Nord or something, had their ultras stand suspended for this game. So because the ultras run football, as you spoke about, the ultras congregated from their own stand and took up the whole stand of the men's stand, like the third tier of the men's stand themselves. so we had me and my dad had bought tickets for the third tier of the main stand in the middle thinking right we'll just we'll be in the you know in the family seat shall we say and we can see the whole match we can see the stadium riots before the game tear gas we meet we get locked we get locked inside a cafe fans police rioting what you've seen and riots in the uk i can assure you is nothing like these riots hang up was mark's question not what was the most positive experience that you've had this is what i was going to say so then it was mental and then we were inside and we quickly realized we were in the ultra stand now straight away you're looking at these big bad hooligans with their balaclavas on big muscly guys and you're going ah shit do you know like you're thinking the worst 10 seconds in we're standing there they're offering us alcohol they're like oh where are you from shaking hands these big scary guys okay they're just normal people.

25:34We're all just normal people.