Auld Enemy & Grand Slam Stakes: can Scotland stop England? - The Sports Agents

0:02Gabby Logan:This is a Global Player original podcast. Well, it's been another astonishing week on the sports agents. Penis gate, I'll let that sink in. Olympic heartbreak and Premier League managers getting sacked. And now we're on to Valentine's Day. This weekend, see Scotland host the old enemy at Murrayfield as they take on England in the Calcutta Cup. Love might not be in the air north of the border, but there were remnants of it in the studio. as Gabby brought her husband to work, former Scotland winger Kenny Logan. England's Six Nations title charge, mounting pressure on Scotland head coach Gregor Townsend and the importance of recyclable flowers.

0:42Gabby Logan:Welcome to The Sports Agents.

0:51Gabby Logan:The Sports Agents. With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman. So the second round of the Six Nations is upon us and there is going to be one heck of a Calcutta Cup at Murrayfield this weekend because Scotland come into it having been crushed by Italy on the opening weekend. England, what did they learn with their huge victory over Wales? Well, who better? On Valentine's Day as well. Oh, I know. Love is in the air. Bring your husband in. Bring your husband to work day. Kenny Logan, who in the car on the way in today, you said you played six Calcutta Cups. No, I played more than that. I think I played about...

1:28I know Doddy Weir played 10 and lost 10 of them, and I said, that is rubbish. And I played eight and lost eight of them. You lost all eight, didn't you? Close, though. Don't get me wrong.

1:38Gabby Logan:What was the closest? Closest... No, that's my story, yeah. This is going to be quite hard for Gabby for me to speak on my own. It's a really hard thing for her. Straight enough, I do simplify. Yeah, exactly. It's two against one. the biggest one for me was we played against England at Morayfield and we were winning something like 9-12-9, 11-9 and there's a minute to go and the referee sees a hand going through the rock pulling the ball back and he gives a penalty straight to England England's slot, kick the goal, there's a goal coming in it was one of those ones, oh yeah, oh it just turned and looked straight at us and came over and Jonathan Callard actually was a kicker but when they went back on the evidence looked back on the camera because England used to have a blue cuff at the end and it was white and he just saw the blue and he pinged it so we were blaming this guy called Ian Jardin and he was getting pelters from the media for putting his hand in the rock and it wasn't him it wasn't him, no anyway, that was the time that Gavin Hastings broke down because Will Callard loved it because Gavin started crying after an interview on the TV and he came in and he said, Gavin Hastings has been crying And we were like, what's he doing that for?

2:53But yeah, and then the other one was, the worst one for me was, we would have won the Grand Slam actually. It was 1999. We lost by one point at Twickenham. So it was 22, 23 to England and I missed three kicks.

3:05Gabby Logan:Oh God. Yeah. Were you in the stand that day? Yeah, I was in the stand. I remember that day. I remember that day for very different reasons because that night, the official function was at a hotel in London and I met girls aloud because they were in the hotel. So I remember it for a minute. You had a lovely day. But the weird thing was, I was never the best at kicking. I was good and bad. When I was bad, I was bad. When I was good, I was good. But if I was going to miss one, I would miss an easy one. I wouldn't miss the hard ones. And that week, I had my knee strapped up. My knee wasn't great.

3:38So I couldn't really hit hard. So the ones I missed were the long ones. And at the end of the game, I remember Alan Tate saying, you've got the easy ones. Why did you miss the long ones? It's not like you. And then obviously we went on to beat France in Paris. You ended up winning the five nations. We won the five nations. We didn't win the Grand Slam. Does that's an eagle then? You can't go back to every game. I wouldn't be alive if I was going back to every game. Yeah, that's a little bit. But sport is, that's what sport does to you, doesn't it? It gives you these great moments and gives you the moments that you think, what happens if I've done that?

4:07But the other, I've got another good one, playing at Twickenham again. So Wasp had played final after final at Twickenham. so I was so used to going in the changing room in the tunnel and turning right where the England changing room was so anyway I'm sort of going in just at half time and I can't remember what game it was but we're doing alright and I go in and I walk straight into the changing room and as I walk in I sort of turn around like that and I look around and I just see about 20 England clubs and you're on your body your mind's going get out of here and your body's just going trying to get out and I look at Lonstad Lall and he sort of looks at me going what are you doing here and I look at Martin Johns and I went fuck off and I went okay and walked back out and Dean McGee can say have you been I just went the wrong changer he went what yes so this game oh we're going to talk about this game yeah should we talk about this game if you want to last week was frustrating in many ways you know you need to get off to a good start because the competition is so many there's only five games and the start just gives you that momentum and when you lose the start your first game and you lose your second game becomes so important and you're playing against one of the favourites I think the big thing for what we would take out this week, last week was they got off to a great start and we just couldn't get back in the game because of the weather but also, when the weather's so bad you can't put the big passes in you've got to play a really tight game so when you're defending, you defend tight so the holes are tiny and they're flying up and you drop the ball and we just didn't perform in fair do to Italy they deserve to win the game the pressure is on the team and Gregor obviously this week can they beat England?

5:49of course they can they're a great side they are one of these teams that could just compete England next week England will know that England will know they'll need to be on their game but there's a lot of pressure there's a lot of talk on Gregor a lot of people are coming out I think in a way I've heard before he's my mate so I'm going to take me and stand strong for Gregor but I know what they're saying but you know John Barkley who I work with, you know, and he said... He's not his mate anymore. We're ticking him off. We all love Gregor. He's a great guy. He has been there for nine seasons. He's about to approach his 100th game as head coach.

6:21This is supposed to be a golden generation of players. So I think it's that feeling that, have you got the most out of them? You've only finished third twice in that time. That's the highest that it's gotten to finish. And arguably, we've had some of the best players in the tournament. I look for me, the last time, we won the tournament in 99. so that's a long time ago 26 years yeah it's a long time and I've got to be honest when we won it I thought we'd win it again really quickly because we had a lot of good players but it does feel there's a really great bunch of players playing if you look at Glasgow top of the URC in the top two teams in Europe Edinburgh have had a really good season so actually we've got a lot of good players I think the biggest problem we've got now is the bench the bench now is such a a new team coming on who have to make a massive impact.

7:09You know, you look at, South Africans have been brilliant at it. England are now looking like they're going to become another specialist. France, Ireland have been good at it. Scotland have never really had that bench. They've got some key players, like George Horn comes off the bench, makes a massive impact. We just need bigger players to make impacts and that's the bit that we maybe, Gregor has struggled with. I mean, we can't keep saying we're going to learn from this, right? Because it's getting boring now. and I think you know Gregor will be well you look at his record against England at Murrayfield as well and England haven't won there since 2020 I think I think that's an interesting in itself that's interesting because England with England's resources should England not just always be beaten well England should be number one in the world let's be honest with the resources they've got and the money they've got they've got everything they're just not being performing but I do think this England team I think they've made some great changes in the coaches Lee Blackett I think is probably one of the best coaches out there and he's brought him in you can see the difference by bringing him in his attack they've got great bounce off the bench they've got back row forwards coming out of their ears they've got more back row forwards than most countries put together and by the way three different back rows and they would all do the same job so they've got the depth and I think again get back to we talk about the depth but it's a one off game they all know going to Murrayfield is a hard place to go and they haven't won there for a while Scotland will have their backs up it will be an amazing test match and can we win?

8:35Of course we can. In terms of England though what could they have learned against Wales because it was such a poor performance from Wales. That would be the hardest thing for England because it was like a team run. I feel sorry for Wales but they haven't got the players so it's going to take a long time and it's going to be a lot of pain. They're going to go through what Italy went through for a wee while. So England will not get there wouldn't have been challenged in the break ground challenged at line outs so they're going to go into this game a little bit soft a little bit soft where Scotland are going a bit more battered and a bit more, they've had a different experience.

9:09I think that'll be England this week. I think their training will be probably a little bit more physical just to try and get that bit more edge on it. Explain that a little bit more about being soft and how you, you know, in terms of test rugby, how does that physically feel? When I was playing, two or three days a week would beat the crap out of each other. For now, they don't do that. So they've got to learn to turn on. Because, just explain, that's partly to the protocol. Protocols now, you don't have as much physicality in training. It's all about technique, where we needed to feel that our body had to be through it.

9:41But these guys now have got to switch on. So that's maybe a little bit different to switch on. They've got to be able to switch on that physicality bit.

9:48Gabby Logan:By beating the crap out of each other, were you therefore more prepared for the hits you were going to get in the game at the weekend? A little bit, and you got some edge at training. So if something was not right in training, there might be a little punch-up. And that made a difference to the weekend, actually. Do Wales need a bit of a punch-up? No, I think Wales just haven't got the players. I mean, I love the Welsh. I've loved playing against them, you know, Welsh. But they're just not the players. He points to Gabby there in case you were wondering. Chappos is English. But I think going into, those players are going in knowing that every time they play, they think they can win, which is the right attitude.

10:24But deep down, they know this is going to be amazing. I mean, France should rip them apart. Will do you think Fabian Gaultier will take the opportunity to because this Six Nations by the way is one weekend less so it's back to back to back Gaultier said he hadn't even thought about that because such is the strength in depth whereas the other nations like Wales and Scotland are thinking that extra weekend that you could have got somebody back you know maybe an HIA protocol do you think Gaultier might take the opportunity to rest players this weekend I mean that would be the ultimate insult obviously for Wales but could he do that he could but I genuinely think if you're going to put a message out to the tournament France will want to go right And I know Sean Ebers' attitude would be like, how do we just destroy these guys and put another marker down to England?

11:05Should be the Grand Slam decider, we think.

11:07Gabby Logan:Do you think the tournament already needs that to be the Grand Slam decider? I think for the tournament, it'd be great finish to the tournament. But from our point of view, I don't care about the Grand Slam decider. I mean, Ireland look like they're struggling a little bit. They've got two 10s. If you look at the best teams in the world, they're the most settled teams in the world. Their 10s are really settled. George Ford Finn Russell But George Ford only since the summer It was all about the Smiths this time last year It's amazing how he's come back into the Ascendancy He's done amazing I think the like about him is His knowledge of the game His knowledge how he sees the game He's got amazing He's not the biggest tackle in the world But he reads the game really well Puts the players in a really good place And I think the difference with Marcus Smith Marcus Smith comes on He's a great impact player And I think that's how you see Marcus a little bit As an impact player George is just He's got better He's just calm I mean from when we Spoke to him at Sale And whatever He's just He is now the general Isn't he He's totally the general And he's ruling the roost And that's where Ireland Have lacked that They've lacked that Prennass is coming in Didn't play well at the weekend You know He's young isn't he He's very inexperienced Yeah I know But it's very hard to Cutting across It's very hard To just keep Swamp the 10 out Other positions You can do it But 10 You need somebody like that general who's, if he has a bad game, it doesn't matter because he's playing so well anyway.

12:30Wouldn't it be great if Italy went to Ireland this weekend and actually backed up their victory over something? I think for the tournament, it would be great. It would be amazing. But the first time Razi Erasmus said in the summer that he felt that Italy could finish in the top two in the Six Nations. Yeah, wow. Because they beat Australia obviously in the autumn. And I think for the tournament, I don't think that's a bad thing, isn't it? It's a great thing. Because you don't want a kind of team to be the perennial kind of whipping boys, do you? I mean, that's Wales' job now. It is at the moment.

12:55Yeah, but I think if you look at Italy, if you look at their age group for the last four or five years, their under-20s have been the top two or three in the under-20s programme. So they've been bringing all these young players through and they had three or four of the top players missing. Yeah, they were on their third choice scrum half at the weekend. Yeah, so it's a nice bet, that. I don't think you've ever placed a bet in your life. You don't place bets. No, but I'm just giving the viewers a bet. Don't try and be that guy.

13:19Gabby Logan:Are Italy an example to Wales, though? Because for years, before this podcast launched, the debate every year would be, do you need promotion and relegation? Do you need Italy out? Wales are not keen now. No, Wales are less keen. But presumably Italy made the decision to go, right, we need to start with seven-year-olds and kind of build this up. Try and get some grassroots going. Well, interestingly, it was Conor O'Shea, who was a coach, and he said, and maybe the coach of the national team, but we've got to get young players playing. We need the 18-year-olds, 16-year-olds to 18 coming through.

13:49now he missed that those people coming through but he put that in place he runs English pathways now and English rugby so the key thing is the pathways and I think it's a bit like a business if your business is flying that's when you've got to think about how do I make sure it's still flying when things start to go wrong and I think Welsh rugby they were so successful for a decade with Warren Gatlin the players coming through and there's just a massive gap now they're just not there and culturally and you can't make them good by saying just keep letting them play test rugby they will get a little bit better but they're not as good as the players what's going on as well off the pitch with regards to the restructuring of the clubs and all of that must be very unsettling for the players even though you know the best ones will get clubs obviously somewhere it feels like they the best ones

14:33Gabby Logan:but maybe maybe their mate who's alongside them in the squad but like the netball one we have yeah there's a lot of players that peak different ages you know you don't have to be 19 to peak some are like 22 23, 24 now if you go oh, I'm just going to give it up. Then suddenly you've lost another bunch of players. And then the players coming through are saying, God, what's the point? You know, you've got to, you want to be part of something successful, you know. The junior rugby in South Wales and North Wales, but obviously traditionally those heartlands, you know, they've lost a lot of players to football as well.

15:07Because obviously football for Wales has done so well in the last 10, 12 years. So yeah, there's work to be done. In Scotland, you know, their method is slightly different. They are looking around the world for Scottish grandparents. and that is one of their major strengths. There's a lot of Scots around the world that they can pull in. Henry Pollock's Scottish, for example. Has been mentioned on the podcast before. Smith's Scottish, right? But the point is, that is one of our strengths. There's a lot of Scots around the world that we can, but at the same time, our young players coming through have to be given the opportunity too and we need more players coming through.

15:41What's good for Scottish rugby is, you look at Hugh Jones, who's going to go to France, so that just means they bring another Scottish player through. Hugh's established international rugby player playing in France, that's great. And the Welsh don't do that, right? The Welsh are very much stay at home, stay at home. And if you can let some players go away and play somewhere else when they're established and bring some young players through, the more players that play at the highest level, the better.

16:02Gabby Logan:International sport is real. It's not as simple now, is it, as just seeing who lives locally or who lives in the country or the place. Really, recording this yesterday, Scotland did beat Italy, But in the cricket, in the men's T20 World Cup, Italy are in the same group as Scotland and England and the West Indies. So if you're watching that at the moment, the USA ran India really close in that. Nepal nearly beat England. There are all these sort of associated countries who are now coming on, but who are using heritage to find players in maybe stronger crickety nations to then come and represent them.

16:39But it's good for the game because you're getting the best players.

16:41Gabby Logan:Yeah. you know the rule they brought in now if you haven't played for your country for three years and you've got like if you look at Dempsey he hadn't played for Australia for three years and because of his Scottish mum or grandmother he could then play for Scotland and he's been outstanding for Scotland so you're getting these players and Willis in France he could play yeah well there's a room and he might be off to Munster you know is there? yeah because he's got Irish connections and I mean surely he wants to be into national rugby but there's a guy who's another back row forward but he's won French player of the year twice I think you know he's an outstanding rugby player and he's not even getting, he's not in nowhere near England to him.

17:12Gabby Logan:Are you at Murrayfield? Are you spending Valentine's Day at Murrayfield? Yeah, Gabby's going to be in Wales and I'm going to be at Murrayfield, yeah. Yeah, perfect. I'm sure there'll be 50 red roses left behind before you leave. I get, I get... The ones from last year, I've just seen today, they're on Five Live, but fake plants. Right. They're a new thing, they're really good because they last so long. So I'm going to get... Fake flowers. Flowers for you. Don't bother. Okay. I thought that was a good, good, sustainable... It's okay, I was about to say it's okay because I get so here you go next 30 years there's a good trade this weekend because I get a young man who really does care about me home for the weekend because Ruben's got a week off so he's back for Valentine's Day so yeah I'll be looked after what did you say?

17:55I think he's going to raise me here's my washing see you later mum I think you might be able to drop him off thanks for coming in Kenny is that it? yeah you're allowed to you're allowed to speak excellent thank you very much appreciate the air time

18:08Gabby Logan:you've spoken more on here than you have at home in the last week. Yeah, I think it's going to be quite... No, I don't. The Sports Agents.

18:18Gabby Logan:The Sports Agents. With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman. So we covered a lot this week. Penis Gate dominated at the Winter Olympics. We can hear from CNN sports anchor Amanda Davis and former Olympic skier Chemi Alcott. This is the ski jumpers story. allegedly putting hyaluronic acid which actually is something that's quite often used in aesthetics into their penises Notice how I'm not really contributing at the moment Yeah, to increase the girth of the penis which in turn would mean you could have a bigger suit and it's the surface area of the suit which apparently gives you the advantage Now, there's a lot of questions that spring to mind from this Maybe ask them Yeah watching people trying to find the appropriate words and the correct words to use on television without inadvertently kind of falling into some ludicrous embarrassing you know what amanda amanda right what the thing that made me laugh the most was somebody from whatever authorities whether it's ski jumping authorities or winter olympic authorities or the british urology association and the quote was the quote was there's no evidence of this but if anything was to come to the surface we would look at it it's very hard to tell one of my favorite headlines was uh eddie the eagle explains the science behind

19:56Gabby Logan:And we had loads on managerial sackings. Sean Dyche had gone. Thomas Frank had gone. Are others vulnerable? What's going on in Premier League boardrooms? We had the Athletic Spurs reporter Jay Harris and the former Liverpool and Chelsea managing director and Aston Villa chief exec Christian Perslow with us. There is one less big beast wandering the jungle in the summer with this morning's news about Thomas Tuchel. By the way, he would have absolutely been on any shortlist at Spurs. I know Vinay well and Vinay always liked the manager. But let's be clear, if Manchester United surveyed the scene over a month ago after Amarine's exit and concluded that there simply wasn't a selection of permanent managers for the long-term mid -season available or willing to take Man U and therefore went down the caretaker route, I think it's absolutely certain that Spurs will do the same thing now for the same reason.

20:53And I think it's a much harder, much harder sell right now for an elite manager because who wants to take relegation risk on their CV, whether you're in work or out of work?

21:04Gabby Logan:That's it for another week. If you've been listening to this on the news agents feed, just search for the sports agents to listen to those episodes in full on YouTube, Global Player or wherever you get your pods. and please hit subscribe or follow. And we love you getting in touch. The email is thesportsagentsatglobal.com. Find us on our social media or via the link in the show notes. And we have new episodes every Tuesday, Thursday and Friday. The Sports Agents. With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman.

21:36Gabby Logan:This has been a Global Player original production.