BONUS EPISODE: Exclusive - Defence secretary on the "catastrophic" Afghan leak

0:02John Healey:This is a Global Player original podcast. We now come to the statement, Secretary of State for Defence, John Healey. With permission, Mr Speaker, I wish to make a statement on a significant data protection breach from February 2022 relating to the Afghan relocations and assistance policy. This led to the High Court Granching an unprecedented super injunction And the previous government Establishing a secret Afghan resettlement route Today I'm announcing to the House A change in government policy I'm closing this resettlement route I'm disclosing the data loss And I'm confirming that the court order Was lifted at 12 noon today members of this house including you mr speaker and myself have been subject to this super injunction it is unprecedented and to be clear the court has always that was john healy the defense secretary

1:07Lewis Goodall:in the house of commons on tuesday afternoon informing his fellow mps that parliament had been kept in the dark by successive governments for two years about the catastrophic data breach at the Ministry of Defence, which we on the news agents were injuncted about and could finally only report on earlier today. That news has shocked Parliament and Westminster. Now, if you're coming at this fresh, might I suggest you just hit the pause button this episode, scroll back one on your feed and listen to our special episode about the leak and the super injunction, where we explain the extraordinary secret process to which we have been subjected for the last two years.

1:50Lewis Goodall:If, however, you've listened to that already and you, like us, want some answers, then stay listening. Because we're joined exclusively now by the man himself, the Defence Secretary, John Healy. He didn't take out the super injunction, but he did maintain it for a year and has now walked away from it. Why now? And what does it say about our democracy that it was taken out in the first place? And what does it say about us that there could still be people in Afghanistan right now who have just discovered they could be at risk? And yet this is the moment. His government is pulling up the drawbridge.

2:30Lewis Goodall:Welcome to this bonus episode of The News Agents.

2:38Lewis Goodall:The News Agents. Defence Secretary, thanks so much for joining us this afternoon. I know you've had a very, very busy day, so we are really grateful for you to spare the time. There are two parts of this story, it seems to me. There's the substance of the leak and the details with regards to what's happened to Afghans, and there's also the use of the constitutionally unprecedented super injunction. Let's deal with the situation in Afghanistan and the data breach first. You said today that the person who sent the data set in error was a defence official. Can you clarify, were they a civil servant, a special advisor, or can you confirm the reporting of Larissa Brown in The Times today that it was a soldier?

3:13John Healey:Well, first of all, I'm really glad to be able to talk to you about this. It's long overdue. I'd like to have done it sooner. So would we. But I've been subject to the same court order and injunction as you have. Indeed. And it offends me as a parliamentarian just as it offends you as a journalist not to be able to inform the public or have Parliament hold government to account. And I've been a parliamentarian now for, well, I've been an MP for 28 years, in government and in opposition, and so it's been deeply uncomfortable. Look, the data breach, which of course was only discovered or brought to ministers' attention in August 2023.

4:02John Healey:The previous government, to be clear.

4:04Lewis Goodall:Yeah.

4:06John Healey:Happened in February 2022. And I think it's for the ministers there at the time, in the previous government, to explain the action they took and the circumstances. And it's not really for me, I think, to start to identify, expose the individual that the investigations at the time underlined had mistakenly sent this spreadsheet in error. Can you tell us whether they're still in the employ of the British government? They are no longer doing the same job on the Afghan brief. But they're still employed by the British government? And this is, in the end, this is bigger than the actions of a single individual.

4:55John Healey:For me as Defence Secretary, now in this government, my biggest concern and my first focus coming into government was to try and get a grip of something that was entirely unprecedented.

5:12Lewis Goodall:I understand. I do want to turn to those bigger issues, believe me. But I do think listeners will be interested. This has obviously been, by your own admission, this was a serious departmental error. It has had profound and grave consequences right up to and including risk to life. That was the entire basis that your department sought and secured the super injunction. And you're telling me that that person is still being employed. They weren't fired. So. The first of all, the super injunction covered any of these questions. Yes.

5:46John Healey:And now we can finally talk about. And accountability, transparency starts today. and it starts today because of the actions I've been taking during this course of this last year as Defence Secretary in the new government to get to grips with the situation. Has anyone lost their job as a result of this? Look, I'm actually not going to get into the personnel matters.

6:08Lewis Goodall:I do think people listening, Defence Secretary, I mean, your colleague, the Culture Secretary, Lisa Nandy, the other day called for people to lose their jobs at the BBC because of a broadcast by Bob Villan. I would think however serious that might be I think a lot of people listening to this would consider that a situation where a huge amount of public money has been spent as a result of this thousands of people have had their lives uprooted there has been a constitutionally defying super injunction that has never been applied in a situation like that before and we don't know what consequences that might have and more generally 100 ,000 people up to have potentially been put at risk that's your own department's assessment and no one's lost their job.

6:48John Healey:So you have just made the case for the deep complexity of this situation. No, I think it's a very straightforward situation. Well, let me finish if you don't mind. And that requires the scrutiny that has not been able to be brought to this. It requires accountability that's not been brought to this. And I have to say, look, you know, under that previous government, when you had ministers in the last government alerted to this data breach, they could have chosen accountability, but they chose an injunction. And I'm asking you. And you've had that subjective. Indeed I have. And I have for this period.

7:22John Healey:And I'm. Today we're able to start that process of looking into those complexities. Yes. And then starting to judge whether and in what ways people should be held to account.

7:35Lewis Goodall:It's not that complex, Secretary of State. A catastrophic error was committed with catastrophic consequences. So I'm just going to ask one more time. We've had two years to get an answer to this question. Has anybody lost their job? Do you think, let me put it another way, should someone lose their job over this?

7:51John Healey:So my first priority was not trying to conduct some sort of witch hunt on the defence official that released the spreadsheet that caused

8:06Lewis Goodall:this profound data loss. Your department has covered its own tracks for two years, Secretary of State. it has done so on the basis of a review which we can talk about which is now miraculously concluded that the threat wasn't as bad as it was so i don't think it's unreasonable to ask for accountability i mean for god's sake two guys got four years today for chopping down a tree a sycamore tree and yet you're proposing that as a result of this massive massive data loss which has resulted in all the things i described that there'll be no accountability do you understand why it is that so many people might lose their trust in politics when they hear things like that my argument to you

8:42John Healey:is that accountability can start today. Accountability in due course, as the facts of this are properly scrutinised and examined, that will come. My task, and I entirely reject your characterisation of the last year while I've been Defence Secretary, that somehow the purpose of the department had been to cover up. My purpose, having been served with the same injunction before the election when I was Shadow Defence Secretary, I was determined when we came into government that we were going to have a fresh look at this. That required us, because we have a system of this government in this country where if you're in opposition, you come into government, you don't get any access to the policy advice, the threat assessments, the legal advice, all the information that previous ministers under the last government would have had to make their decisions.

9:38John Healey:So we set about building that. we set about covering that ground I took that to cabinet colleagues in the early autumn they wanted fresh insights we then took action to try and contain the spray to the database that had not been taken before before Christmas I streamlined the range of different relocation schemes that the previous government had had in place and early this year commissioned Paul Rimmer so that we've got a fresh, up-to-date assessment of the risk. And it's on the basis of RIMA, it's on the basis of RIMA that the injunction that you and I have been subject to has been lifted by the judge.

10:20John Healey:And it's on the basis of RIMA that I've been able to change government policy and announce that to the House of Commons today.

10:25Lewis Goodall:And I want to talk about the RIMA review. One quick question, though, on accountability, and we'll assume on the basis of your answers that no one has been fired, at least yet, but would you consider, on the basis of wanting accountability, a public inquiry?

10:37John Healey:Well, I've actually argued for some time that actually Parliament is more capable of conducting some of the... Parliament's only just found out about it. Precisely. So Parliament is, in general terms, Parliament is much more capable of conducting some of the inquiries better than the long-drawn-out, legalistic, highly expensive public inquiry system. and in my view this is and I said this in the House of Commons today having kicked off for the first time the restored if you like parliamentary accountability with the announcement I've made today that's disclosing this big data breach that is ending the secret resettlement route and ensuring that we've lifted the injunction today parliamentary accountability can start And this seems to me absolutely the sort of thing that the common select committees could launch an in-depth inquiry.

11:36John Healey:And that's part of now creating the accountability that hasn't been there before.

11:40Lewis Goodall:So do you rule out a public inquiry, Defence Secretary? You rule it out?

11:43John Healey:I want to see Parliament demonstrating it's capable of doing the job. Because, look, in general terms...

11:48Lewis Goodall:I understand that point. But do you just think, as far as I'm concerned, I don't want a public inquiry. There won't be one.

11:53John Healey:I would say, first and foremost, let's see what Parliament can do. too often in public debate like this on a variety of issues people reach for this idea, public inquiry is the answer to everything they last for years they cost thousands they become very legalistic lawyers do well out of it lawyers have done very well very often witnesses and those who are victims feel that they don't get the hearing so I'm not an automatic fan of a public inquiry put it that way. I think Parliament could do much more than it does in the past. And this is a territory. This is exactly the sort of thing where parliamentary accountability starting today can actually be developed.

12:37Lewis Goodall:You didn't just announce the data breach today or report it to Parliament, of course, Defence Secretary. You announced the closure of the asylum scheme designed to deal with that data breach, among other things. Now, some of those affected by the breach may only have come to discover that they were affected as a result of what you have said today. Now, many people listening to this might find the timing of that odd. Why would you be taking away the lifeboats at precisely the moment of maximum danger?

13:03John Healey:Everybody who had individual applications that was part of that data set was informed before I made the announcement.

13:12Lewis Goodall:Well, not necessarily, because by your own admission, your department's own admission, not everybody, because some of the contact details may have changed over time, may have been informed. And of course, as you know, there are family members and other people affected who may not be aware. So that's not completely the case.

13:27John Healey:And where we've got incomplete information, we have also set up a dedicated website. We've also set up a dedicated information service centre.

13:38Lewis Goodall:But what's the point of that if I just log on to it and I find I was affected, but then the scheme that I might use to address that has closed?

13:46John Healey:Well, because if you want further information...

13:48Lewis Goodall:information um well the further information would be the british government doesn't care anymore well let's get this let's get this in perspective the the the very large number the 18 714

14:01John Healey:individual applications that were part of that big data set yeah was lost in february 22 yeah were all applicants to the ARAP scheme. That's the Afghan relocations and assistance policy scheme. It's been in place for more than four years. It's something that in opposition and in government we really strongly backed because this was Britain's commitment to those brave Afghans that worked with or served with our forces during those long 20 years.

14:36Lewis Goodall:I know all that, Secretary. I'm just conscious you haven't got much time. So I just want to be absolutely clear. I sat in court, Secretary of State, for two years. I was told repeatedly, repeatedly, that if this data set, if the Taliban became aware of this data set, it would represent lethal risk to the people on it and their families, potentially up to 100 ,000 people. That was the entire basis of the super injunction. And if the Taliban didn't know about the data set already, they definitely do now because you announced it in the House of Commons. So why at that precise moment would you take away the scheme designed to help these people?

15:12Lewis Goodall:It doesn't make any sense.

15:15John Healey:Because what I've also done today is to publish an independent report that I commissioned from Paul Rimmer. He's a former senior civil servant. He's the ex-deputy head of defence intelligence. and he has given us, us being you, the media, us in Parliament, me in particular as a cabinet member responsible for this area, an up-to-date, fresh threat and risk assessment, in particular an assessment of the risk of... So those people are no longer in danger? Well, if you read, as you will have done, Rimmer's report, he concludes a number of things. four years on after the Taliban have taken over Afghanistan.

16:02John Healey:He says there's little evidence of any systematic campaign of retribution.