Could Labour MPs jump ship to the Green Party?

0:02Lewis:This is a Global Player original podcast. I don't think we're in a place where like we need defections from MPs. I think we've clearly got the energy and momentum anyway. But at the same time... Are you talking to any Labour MPs about defections? I talk to Labour MPs all the time. About defections? It would... Yeah, could you imagine if Labour MPs would continue to talk to me if I came on the newsagents and named the MPs that I'm talking to? No, no, I'm not asking you to name them. I'm just... I'm just asking is there any interest? Fair enough question. I'm talking to Labour MPs about defections, yes.

0:27Lewis:That is, in many ways, the man of the moment, Zach Polanski, the leader of the Green Party in England and Wales, suggesting that there are Labour MPs who are talking to him about defecting to his party. Is this something that we seriously might see?

0:44Zack Polanski:The Greens are riding high in the polls right now. But are they also learning how to spin the narrative of the populist left to match a narrative of the populist right? Welcome to the News Agents.

1:02Lewis:the news agents it's john it's emily it's lewis and that interview that we were just hearing a clip of in the introduction there with zach polanski is going to be going out on tomorrow's news agents but we kind of thought it was such an interesting line the idea that there were potential defections from labor to the greens that we thought actually this is a story worth bringing so take us through lewis what it was that zach polanski was trying to get across because in terms of momentum you feel right now he is the politician in britain that has it well he's certainly driving media discussion social media content discussion in a way that we have not seen certainly any figure on the left do certainly since jeremy corbyn and this was as you say john this is part of a sort of long extended conversation as you know listeners know we often do on fridays which is not supposed to be a kind of interrogative thing and sort of jumping down people's throat but trying to understand a bit of his political philosophy his principles, how his politics were shaped and to be honest it was towards the end of the interview we were mainly talking about obviously the prospects something we've talked on the show about before about the Jeremy Corbyn, Zahra Sultana itself breakaway party, your party which has been plagued with problems and I was just sort of saying to him well you know would you welcome them into the party do you still think it would be a good idea And then he sort of brought up to some extent this question of whether he needs them and whether actually he, given that they're enjoying so much support at the moment, so much momentum at the moment, would need anyone to join his party from Labour.

2:34Lewis:So here's the full exchange of what we said on that. I've shared more panels with Zahra Sultana in the last couple of weeks than I've seen my boyfriend. And I said that to her the other day. We were in Manchester together on Saturday and I said to her in the audience, I said, I've not come here to be partisan. then we can have a whole conversation about what those relationships between the parties look like or you could recognize that with a party that have immense amounts of members joining us i like zara come join the green party and so i'm not going to beg anyone to join the party anyone can decide where or what they want to be welcome them yeah absolutely i i need to caveat that it's not my decision that's up to the party and i don't think we're in a place where like we need defections from mps i think we've clearly got the energy momentum anyway but at the same time are any Labour MPs about defection?

3:17Lewis:I talk to Labour MPs all the time. About defection? It would yeah could you imagine if Labour MPs would continue to talk to me if I came on the news agents and named the MPs that I'm talking to? No no I'm not asking you to name them I'm just I'm just asking is there any interest? Fair enough question I'm talking to Labour MPs about defection yeah.

3:30Zack Polanski:I mean it's a very smart deflection that he does there when when you ask him directly have you talked to Labour MPs about defection he kind of goes for comedy oh can you imagine if I was about to name their names on the news agents blah blah blah just gives him a little beat to think about how he's going to respond to you at that moment because he doesn't want to say, oh, well, no, not directly. And we don't actually know is the truth, right? And he doesn't want to say, well, yes, it's all about to happen in the next 48 hours in case it doesn't. He's just very carefully sort of opening this window, making your mind go to the place where, well, who would it be?

4:07Zack Polanski:Which names are in my head? I wonder if he's had that conversation with that. And of course, the person that it sort of indirectly reminds you of is Farage. I mean, from completely the other end of the horseshoe, who just sets hairs running, who says things like, well, I think you might want to see what's happening. We're going to have a news conference on Monday at 11. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

4:29Lewis:You'll be amazed at how many people are speaking to me and are very unhappy.

4:33Zack Polanski:And everyone writes it up. And I suppose it goes back to something that we've been talking about quite a lot, I would say of the last few months, but actually about the last few years, which is that the old way of doing politics has become slightly broken, slightly dulled. You know, the sheen has gone off it. When you get a press release now, you kind of go, oh, how am I going to get to the bottom of that? When you hear a conference speech, when you hear a, you know, a long political announcement, you kind of think, isn't there a smarter way of doing this? And I guess where Zach Polanski and Nigel Farage sort of meet is that this way, They've sort of worked out that the attention economy is the key, right?

5:16Zack Polanski:That you actually have to go for something that just sounds a bit smarter, a bit savvier, and makes people a bit more curious about what you're going to say next. It doesn't mean that they get their policies right. You know, we're going to have a long debate about that. But they've certainly worked out that there is a more modern way of communicating right now. And I think that's a real sort of window into it.

5:36Lewis:I think the other thing about it is it shows how brittle the traditional parties are in that the sense is from Polanski and the sense is from Farage that the Conservatives and Labour are terrified of what might be happening and that they're out of control of events. And it's very destabilising. If you've got the leader of the Green Party saying, oh, yeah, I'm talking to a number of Labour, I'm not going to say who, but a number of Labour MPs are talking to me. You could imagine someone in number 10 ringing up the chief whip and saying, what about this? Is this true? Do we know anyone? Is there anyone else?

6:11Zack Polanski:And we've got the deputy leadership next week. Would one of those keep more of the Labour MPs in the circle than the other, right? And that has the effect that Polanski wants

6:20Lewis:in the Labour Party. And Farage has shown how successfully he has utterly spooked and lives rent-free in the heads of the Conservative Party. There are two separate things going on here, right? And actually, part of the interview with people here tomorrow, we talk quite a lot about Farage and the fact that there are some things that he himself talks about saying that he kind of admires about the way that Farage sort of operates politically does not admire his politics in any kind of way. There are two separate things going on, all of which are in some way learning from Farage and all of the sort of political forces which Farage has sort of embodies.

6:54Lewis:One is just this narrow question about, which is new because no previous Green leader I think would have done this, which is just the narrow question of knowing how to manipulate the media to do exactly what Farage does in a situation like that and suggest there are defections do I think that there are imminent defections to the Green Party I might end up looking sort of stupid sort of spiking my our own story here I doubt it for lots of different reasons it could happen I'm not saying it wouldn't happen down the line but he knows as you as you both say he knows that that will probably get written up and it will have that political effect that we're all talking about the reason Polanski is different and the reason why I think his entrance into British politics is potentially a big moment on the left, is the fact he's willing to play that game.

7:31Lewis:I'm absolutely convinced that Caroline Lucas and Adrian Ramsey, his predecessor, they probably would have, they would have probably particularly if it wasn't happening or it wasn't happening seriously, they would have been straightforward, dare I say even sort of completely transparent and honest enough to go, no, it's not happening, or at least I'm not going to discuss it. Whereas Polanski, I'm not saying that he's misleading me, I'm not saying that maybe he hasn't spoken to them, but

7:53Zack Polanski:maybe he doesn't know. Maybe he doesn't know.

7:56Lewis:And if there's been a fragment of a conversation, he can turn around and go, yeah, I am. And that's different, right? That is different. And I'm not saying that in a disparaging way. I'm saying that in quite an admiring way because that is the political game he's playing. The fact that there is someone on the left playing that game in that way is different. And then there's the bigger question, of course, as well, which you've alluded to, Emily, which is that I don't think this is limited to the Green Party, although that is that is interesting in British political terms. you know it feels to me as if the left is sort of finally waking up to 10 years of populist right politics we've talked before about sometimes it's felt like with trump coming back it's felt like 2016 all over again everyone's going how do we deal with this yeah how does what just happened yeah what just happened he's in a different interesting way doesn't he what should we do and all that hand-wringing that endless like analysis paralysis that happens that sort of ferments on liberal politics and actually there are more people polanski is one but there are others around the world, including, you know, with its AOC or Mamdani in New York or whatever, who are responding to the post-Trump world and mimicking the way they do politics.

8:56Zack Polanski:Well, let's talk about that, because Mamdani, who is the candidate on the hard left for New York mayor election, which should be at the beginning of November, that is your US election to watch.

9:07Lewis:But he's got the Democratic Party nomination. So although hard left, he's not way outside.

9:13Zack Polanski:He's got the nomination, but he's also split and opened up divisions within the Democratic Party itself. And he was on Fox News last night. And I think it's again, you know, is Zach Polanski going to be the first sort of big green leader that goes to GB News or goes and writes a piece for The Spectator or goes to sort of an alt-right sort of editorial? because he doesn't just want to talk to the people that are, you know, preach to the choir, the people that are already on board. Let's just hear a bit from the Mamdani exchange on Fox News.

9:48Lewis:You know, I want to take this moment because you spoke about President Trump and you may be watching right now. And I just want to speak directly to the president, which is that I will not be a mayor like Mayor Adams, who will call you to figure out how to stay out of jail. I won't be a disgraced governor like Andrew Cuomo, who will call you to ask how to win this election. I can do those things on my own. I will, however, be a mayor who's ready to speak at any time to lower the cost of living. That's the way that I'm going to lead the city. That's the partnership I want to build not only with Washington, D.C., but anyone across this country.

10:17Lewis:I think it's important because too often the focus on the needs of working class Americans, working class New Yorkers are put to the side as we talk more and more about the very kinds of corrupt politicians like Andrew Cuomo that delivered us into this kind of crisis.

10:30Zack Polanski:Just in televisual terms, really important. What does he do? He speaks down the barrel. Why is that key? Because actually tonight we are going to see the first TV debate, the first New York mayoral debate. There will be Cuomo on stage. There will be Sliwa, who is the Republican nominee for New York mayor. And there will be Mamdani. So in a way, he's getting in his practice early. But this is part of the strategy. You work out your audience. You work out. He's not talking to Trump. Of course, he's not talking to Trump. Who is he talking to? He's speaking to the economic nationalists that have all gone to Trump that he thinks he can win back for the left.

11:10Zack Polanski:And many of those will probably be Fox News viewers. You know, they might not be ideological. They just want to hear people talk about the cost of living. They want to hear people talk about how much America costs right now. If he can win them round by speaking down the barrel, he's learned something that Trump and others learned 15 years ago.

11:26Lewis:So why this is relevant for Polanski is what Mamdani is doing and why he is appealing to so many. He's talking about rent freezes for living in New York. He's talking about free bus passes. He's talking about much better child care facilities. He's talking about subjects that the conventional Democrat candidate wouldn't talk about in those terms because they'd say, well that's going to upset a lot of our very wealthy base who support us and therefore we're going to upset wall street if we come out with policies like that and ma 'am dine is saying we've tried that and it's failed you know look at what's happened in the last presidential election where donald trump had the populist economic message we need to have that too and you can see polanski trying to pursue a similar policy as well in the way that he is appealing to a wider electorate who maybe feel that conventional politics is not doing it for them also shifting where the green party is traditionally set something else yeah we talked about is that's uh you know the climate is no longer the first thing that comes out of a green party politician's lips and that is a that is again a big shift in terms of where the politics has gone and something i found especially interesting was mamdani actually being a source of direct inspiration to him and not just say that yes he said that in the interview and not only that that was the case but they are he was saying it's a two-way conversation and that they're talking regularly just listen to this are you looking at people like i mean when you're looking at the politics in different parts of the world talk about the us are you looking at say mam danny in new york aoc the way that they approach politics is that who you're taking inspiration from yeah definitely i also would you know i take huge inspiration from mam danny i can also be honest and say that i've spoken to members of his team that this thing is two-way and so i think it's a group of people among the left right now in Europe and more widely, who are recognising that for decades now, we've not been winning in the way that we should.

13:23Lewis:And actually, when you pull our policies and the ideas, they're increasingly the popular ideas, just for various reasons, largely the broken electoral system. We've been stuck in this two-party politics that has left people voting for the worst option or the least worst option. I think undoubtedly that's breaking down now. What interests me about that is, you know, we've talked a lot on the show about you know the sort of anglosphere certainly the uk us online right and the fact that you know in many ways one of the big distinctive shifts of our politics over the last few years has been this sense of sort of collective endeavor of shared project from some of these radical right forces in different parts of the world where you know maga farage and so on in other places as well they all see themselves they're always talking they're always connected they're always sort of they see themselves as part of the sort of same collective effort against the same sort of forces in their respective countries that they dislike and abhor.

14:12Lewis:That has been placed on the right. It's not been as common on the left over the last few years. I think that there is the potential that you could potentially see of a sort of counter reaction to that on the left with similarly minded kind of political figures like Mamdani and AOC and Polanski. You can see them sort of again, they they're sort of fighting in their own way, the same battles as well. They see if you spoke to I'm sure if you spoke to Mamdani and talked about the Democrats and you talked about Polanski and the way that Labour is and sort of centre-left, they would see it as exactly the same sort of establishment kind of centre-left politics that they're all sort of fighting against.

14:45Lewis:It's that sort of sense of collective endeavour that we've seen on the right of politics for some time.

14:49Zack Polanski:I also think that line from Zach Polanski about it's no longer a two-party system is really relevant because if you look at the polling that's coming out now, and I should say some of this stuff is kind of more credited or more discredited than others but there's quite a lot of polling that will show you a range of about 15 17 percent for four of the parties right and so there is a world in which i mean it's way too early to start making predictions for the next election but it is not inconceivable that we will see a coalition again in 2029 in the uk because you have at the moment reform as the polling sort of front leader fine but if you have as you say this kind of group of like-minded parties who are willing to work together who are willing to be in government together you get to a higher figure than the reform figure now to get there you actually have to start looking quite intently at some of the policies and the greens it is no secret to say they are pretty way out on certain things that other parties consider mainstream like the position of NATO, for example, the position of Israel's existence, the position of, I don't know, exactly what the shape of future defence, for example, and defence spending looks like.

16:15Zack Polanski:So you may not get to a place where they all feel that they could support each other. But I do think it opens the door for something that looks much more collaborative on the left of British politics than we have seen for a long time.

16:27Lewis:But here's a question for us is that, you know, I think it's fair to say that we are all pretty sceptical about right populists and that populism has been in general and the rise of populism has been quite corrosive for our democracies over the sort of last 10 years. So the question is, is like, how do we feel about left populism? I mean, is it OK because it's left populism as opposed to right populism? because actually this is something I was saying to Polanski is that, you know, there is a horseshoe here. And some of the ways that Polanski talks about politics are similar to the way that Farage talks about politics.

16:58Lewis:It's also true to say that one of the reasons Starmer and let's say centre-left forces or centre-right force struggles to deal with populists, whether it's left or right, is because populists very often will speak in deeply simplistic solutions. They won't often engage with the politics of trade-offs, which to be fair, Polanski doesn't really do well. There's some things I sort of pressed him on, you know, to say, well, we'll be able to just solve all of this by rewiring the taxation system or whatever. Being a populist, whether you're on the left or right, in terms of the day-to-day act and management of politics, is easier because it is easier to throw hand grenades from the outside than it is to build something.

17:32Lewis:Now, to be fair to Polanski, he would say he would love the opportunity to build something, but then again, so would Farage, right? And as soon as you're in that position of dealing with the world as it is rather than the world as you'd like it to be, it is more difficult. Look, I think the whole idea that there are simple solutions to complex problems, which is the classic offering of the populist politician, whether of the left or of the right. You know, Nigel Farage, we're going to make sweeping savings to the welfare budget. Brexit will solve everything. Exactly. Exactly. And I think that that just leads to further disillusionment among ordinary voters about the political process.

18:09Lewis:I hate them all. None of them deliver. And, you know, they all operate within a system of international capitalism where we have got bond markets which can decide what your cost of borrowing is and we saw a very clear example of that when Liz Trust came forward with unfunded tax promises of how fast things can spiral out of control if you start doing stuff that you haven't properly thought through and I just think that the easy offerings of populists whether of the left or of the right will ultimately lead to disappointment and further disillusionment.

18:41Zack Polanski:And I want to add to that which is that the policies of the left will be far more intensely interrogated, I think, because all the money is on the right, right? So there is a world in which if you have a policy that broadly helps the billionaires, helps those, you know, with all the cash, there is less interrogation of what's going on. Well, also active support, not just interrogation. Absolutely. So you look at the oligarchs, the tech bros standing up behind Trump. Why did they do that? because they want to get their AI centres built. What's actually powering the economy in the US now, you know, against Trump's tariffs?

19:19Zack Polanski:It's all the work of AI. So people don't kind of stop the thing that is making the money for the country. Whereas as soon as left populism comes in, and I guess, you know, you would have people say, well, yeah, damn right, we don't want to turn into Venezuela. We don't want to turn to Cuba. We don't want to corrupt the country into a place where there's no money. But as soon as you have policies on the left, everyone with money and generally that is more influence starts to say what on earth are you doing? What's going on there? There is just more interrogation of what that actually means I think.

19:52Lewis:We sort of band this time around and there are lots of different definitions of what populism is but like one sort of classic definition is to say that it is a form of politics which basically pits ordinary people against elites. Yeah. And the truth is is that both for Farage and Polanski that is the essence of their politics it's just they disagree about who the elites are. You know, Farage would say that the elites are kind of people like us, liberal cultural elites, right? Who dominate the media and dominate universities and dominate politics and dominate all of our institutions. And they're the things, they have in whatever way, basically denuded ordinary people of the ability to get what they want because what the liberals want and believe is different to what ordinary people believe.

20:33Lewis:Polanski is saying it's different. It's an economic elite. It's an economic elite who might coincide with some of those people, but they might not. Indeed, Polanski would say that Farage embodies that economic elite. But it is the same fundamental approach. Now, I'm not saying that one or other is right or wrong, but it is the fundamental kind of unit and building block of politics, and it is what unites them. Well, if you think this is a uniquely British problem, it ain't. Look at what is happening in France at the moment. The prime minister has just survived a confidence vote. We'll be talking about that in just a moment.

21:07Lewis:news you can trust and the conversations that matter with award-winning journalists at the